Arianna just managed to piss me off

[kispoko]

and did a rather thorough job, refering to tribal nations in california as "special interest groups" and telling everyone they don't pay taxes, intimating they should....

i don't think i can ever look at her the same for propagating this irresponsible myth that lends credit to racist, anti-indian sentiment, which of course then leads to racist, anti-indian action too often. california tribes *do* pay taxes. however, they do not pay the same taxes as others within california's borders because, guess what? they are not, nor should they be subject to a foreign government's laws. being subjugated by the united states is bad enough on its own. and people want the states involved as well? what a shameful position to hold.

tribal nations owe california NO tax money and if anything, california owes an infinite debt to those very nations for the genocide experienced there, which arguably was among the worst experienced by natives in any area of what is now the united states.


i expect a guy like newt gingrich to make comments about america not having killed more people than nations such as iraq, as though the american indian is going to forget the holocaust. but a progressive like huffington i do in fact expect a bit more from than relegating tribes to "special interest group" status and perpetuating myths about them, which fully demonstrates for me her level of support for indian autonomy and self-determination, which is really what the issue is about.

so somebody please cut into me for daring say negatives about arianna.... i was lookin' forward to seeing her today as i always do, but, this morning wasn't a great day to wake up and be native watching c-span apparently, and she certainly didn't mitigate that with her ignorance. so, i need somebody to take it all out on since i couldn't get through on the phones. somebody, please apologize for this trash.... thanks in advance

[Khephra]

1. The thing to remember about Huffington

Is she isn't a Democrat--she's an independent.

I agree with much of what she says, and still will, but she's not totally on the home team, know what I'm saying? It still doesn't discount her use as a Bush critic, imo. There are far too few of them to be picky.

Just don't vote for her. Then she can go back to bashing Bush, which she's much better at doing than trying to make policy statements.

[kispoko]

2. hm

no chance of voting for her; i'm in west virginia. although i would've been proud to check 'no' to recall davis, out of principle solely, and then put another mark beside huffington's name in case things didn't go that way.

i know she isn't a democrat, that's why i mentioned 'progressive.' however, her uneducated opinion on this matter is anything but.... so yeah, i guess it doesn help to remember she's not toally on the home team. i just really expected more from her though and was pretty disappointed. the larger issue here of sovereignty is not small potatoes to native people. it's quintessential.

[Khephra]

4. Oh, I know it's not..one side of my family was almost full Cherokee

And I'm not really defending her. I guess I'm just longing for her return to bashing Bush. She was so much better at doing that than running for office. People like Huffington are better as critics on the outside than on the inside, imo.

[kispoko]

5. yep

i think you have a good point there.... people like arianna, as much as we may like to see them on the inside, might be able to effect the most positive change(s) by fighting from the outside or, perhaps advising.

still very pissed about all of that and won't ever forget, but a part of me still wants to see the part of her that's drawn me to her before running things.

eh...

[JI7]

3. agree, that's why i still like her

she is too good in the way she goes after the right wing. and her going after the democrats helps us also. and she did vote for al gore.

[Cheswick2.0]

6. no it doesn't help to go after democrats

and she voted for Nader

[JI7]

8. i think she voted for al gore

i'm sure others might be able to confirm it, but i remember her saying she was going to vote for al gore.

[Cha]

7. I don't blame you for being "pissed" as it pisses me off, too~!

Please write her an e-mail and let her know what you think of this
incorrect take on Native Americans!

[mitchtv]

20. in that e mail you send her

please remind her that it is time to drop out of the Recall Race.She will only take Progressive votes from Davis/ or Bustamante.She also owes the peole of this state an apology for her part in Michael Huffingtons senate campaign against Dianne. The most Vile campaign I'v ever seen

[Classical_Liberal]

29. I agree she should if it looks like that but also think Bismumante

should do the same if Arrianna is leading in the final week so he isn't a spoler

[mitchtv]

59. arianna in the lead? bwhahahahaha

most Californians have never heard of her.

[Classical_Liberal]

60. They will hear of her

.

[Bandit]

9. "nor should they be subject to a foreign government's laws."

If you are referring to the US as a foreign government you need to do some homework. Read the Indian Citizenship act of 1924. All American Tribes are in addition to being American citizens. They are in fact a preferred people because they have additional rights to other American citizens. Believe it or not we are not all "equal" in America.

[kispoko]

10. good, someone said somethin' stupid

now i get to vent :)

-If you are referring to the US as a foreign government you need to do some homework.

i was actually refering to both the united states as well as california and other state governments as 'foreign' polities.

-Read the Indian Citizenship act of 1924.

yet another way to subjugate indian peoples and indian governments which were never meant to have either citizenship or "ward status" imposed upon them arbitrarily by the american government... it would be as if we had decided to grant all canadian citizens american citizenship and then by default claimed their territory for our own, ignoring both our own ententes and international law in the process.

this is the insanity you're attempting to rationalize bandit, in the great american tradition of cognitive dissonance.... i am recognizing the illegal u.s. occupation of vast swaths of territory, which violates international law of course but as well, the united states' own jurisprudence, amazingly. won't you join me in being enlightened sometime, fellow "progressive?"

-All American Tribes are in addition to being American citizens. They are in fact a preferred people because they have additional rights to other American citizens. Believe it or not we are not all "equal" in America.

more racist myth about american indians.... people do not understand the concept of indian sovereignty. they think it is race-based, and not governmental at all. sometimes this is simply ignorance, at other times, it is willful manipulation to argue bigoted contentions, such as that american indians are "prefered people," whatever that means, and that we have 'additional rights.' if that's true, i would hate to see the condition of the 'unprefered,' as it were, as well as those who seemingly don't have as many rights :eyes:

fact is, for those living on tribal lands, the rights are only different, as per tribal law(s). it is no different really than varying statutes state-to-state. no one complains because some state residents don't have to pay state income taxes, or food taxes, or etc. etc. and so on. that is because we recognize the right of states to decide these matters for themselves.... isn't it far past due to do the same for tribal governments who are supposed to have a status of sovereignty above that of the states they are within instead of the further shame of making them bow to another foreign government so they can siphon more money from them?

haven't you had enough america?

[Bandit]

11. Not all Natives live on "Tribal Land"

In Alaska there is no "Tribal Land" Alaska Natives hunt marine mammals against the marine mammal act but they are allowed because of "special rights" that other American citizens do not enjoy. They also receive BIA assistance in housing, medical, clothing, and more. Other American citizens do not receive such benefits. Granted American Natives received a very raw deal, but that is history. Same as Slavery. Let's see what would happen if a Black were to shoot a sea lion. They were treated at least as badly as American Natives but don't enjoy the "status" of having another "nation" to call their own. I sympathize with you but it ain't all as simple as you'd like to make it.

[kispoko]

14. did i say that bandit?

did i say all natives lived on tribal land? no... nor did i imply it. so, tuck that straw man back away. this is about the rights of those who *do* live on tribal lands as well as the rights of tribes themselves.

-In Alaska there is no "Tribal Land"

not in the sense we're used to in the contiguous 48, but there is still land administered by tribal governments (corporations).... that which was done to the american indians and alaska natives there was yet another injustice.

-Alaska Natives hunt marine mammals against the marine mammal act but they are allowed because of "special rights" that other American citizens do not enjoy.

those "special rights" are called 'treaties.' and they do not enjoy them because they are natives and also possess a certain number of legally defined amount of aboriginal rights, but because they are governmental entities.... what is it about that you refuse to get?

they may indeed be "special" rights to you.... but so isn't your 'right' to live on native americans' lands. what, you didn't think the indians just received and gave nothing at all, did you? or, do you just consider anything an indian may have a "privilege?"

-They also receive BIA assistance in housing, medical, clothing, and more.

which is exactly why the elderly suffer from heat stroke in summer, freeze in winter, why children attend dilapidated schools (clothing, no), and why the indian health services gets to experiement on indians, including women and children, with vaccinations, substances like uranium, and in sterilizing indian women as was done in the 70's to over a 1/3 of the population

yeah, it's a real picnic guy :eyes:

-Other American citizens do not receive such benefits.

other american citizens receive *better*. and what other american citizens don't receive, neither did they have to give anything for it either.... you really do imagine everything natives have was just given them by an altruistic american government, don't you? wholly ignorant fella. you need to study treaties, and, just general american history in this regard... and then argue why you obviously feel those agreements (re: treaties) should be ignored by the united states (but consequently, not by native people), which is exactly what you're advocating, whether you're aware or not. you have to be made aware at some point

-Granted American Natives received a very raw deal, but that is history.

it's ongoing history... i am tired of people pretending everything is over and done with. you have not a clue. and the treaties cannot just be arbitrarily ignored by the united states when they are no longer convenient. have you no sense of ethics?

-Same as Slavery. Let's see what would happen if a Black were to shoot a sea lion. They were treated at least as badly as American Natives but don't enjoy the "status" of having another "nation" to call their own.

they do in africa. you forget these are our lands, and our nations have been here thousands of years, and are recognized as such. that wasn't something that was given to us, as you seem to think. it is not a "special privilege" for our nations to be recognized in our own homelands.... imagine that. what a concept, right?

-I sympathize with you but it ain't all as simple as you'd like to make it.

umm... pretty bad case of projection there, but, nothin' i haven't seen before and have to experience almost daily.

[Bandit]

17. Name one treaty signed with any Alaskan Indian ~ Just one

I don't believe you are able to. Hunting Marine mammals did not come from any treaty. It was part of ANILCA. Do you even know what ANILCA is? The lower 48 tribes are quite different than those in Alaska and are treated quite differently also. There are no reservations in Alaska so a lot of what you are talking about is not applicable. When did any American Native ever claim the land was theirs? Many tribes fought with each other and committed atrocities much worse than the whiteman did. Lands were stolen by natives as much as by the Whiteman. Along with women and children who were made slaves. You are not clean as a whistle in dealings with other nations either. Tell me how did the Crow feel about the Apache? How about the Haida or Klinket? Did the Shim Shin fight with the Simsion? Tell me all about the atrocities committed among the people.

[kispoko]

43. bandit again....

-I don't believe you are able to. Hunting Marine mammals did not come from any treaty. It was part of ANILCA. Do you even know what ANILCA is?

you don't understand my use of the word 'treaty' here. *any* agreement between two governments could be considered a treaty, and the alaskan native tribes, even though not "organized" in the same way as those down this way are still tribal *governments* all the same.

the anilca expressly gave native tribes SUBSISTENCE RIGHTS over their own territories (imagine that, having rights on your own aboriginal lands, which the united states was oh so kind of enough to allow, don'tcha know). many alaskan natives still rely on traditional hunting for their very livelihood (such as the gwich'in, to whom the caribou is central to life itself) as they cannot just up and go down to kroger when they want.... what you need to be looking into is how the indian reorganization act affected alaskan tribes as well as the alaska native claims settlement act (another farce) and how federal courts interpret indian law as applying to natives there. this is a matter of autonomy

for you to frame these as "special rights" really smacks of racism.... let's get this straight: the united states takes over their territory. they then decide what to do with this land, eventually parcelling it out among the natives and the federal and state government, securing vast sums of revenue then and for as long as they have control over the land. what little they do get to keep, including that which keeps them alive, is considered "special," and even a "privilege" to have, even though these are rights they've always enjoyed.

no, it is the alaskan people and the federal government who enjoy special rights on alaskan lands, not the alaskan people, who have been made servile to the united states against their will and enjoy far less than they once had.

you really do consider anything an indian has a "privilege," don't you?

-The lower 48 tribes are quite different than those in Alaska and are treated quite differently also. There are no reservations in Alaska so a lot of what you are talking about is not applicable.

some tribal governments in the lower 48 don't even have reservations. that doesn't mean they aren't sovereigns though.... you really don't know much of what you're talking about, as evidenced by your refusal to address prior issues and instead move on to something else you think will work.

-When did any American Native ever claim the land was theirs?

when have they not?... are you serious here?

-Many tribes fought with each other and committed atrocities much worse than the whiteman did.

name even one of these atrocities that was worse than what the europeans accomplished. i'm interested. educate me.

what does this even have to do with issues of sovereignty? you are reall reaching for just anything to rationalize your own ignorance

-Lands were stolen by natives as much as by the Whiteman.

give examples.

-Along with women and children who were made slaves.

this was hardly a pervasive practice, but it'd be just as wrong of me to deny that native tribes had no slavery as it is for you to imply that this was even nearly as bad, or worse, than what whites did to blacks and natives when they got here... as well, what kind of relevant point do you imagine this to be anyway?

-You are not clean as a whistle in dealings with other nations either.

so that means the united states can just arbitrarily void the treaties it made with tribal nations? explain your reasoning here, if you can

-Tell me how did the Crow feel about the Apache? How about the Haida or Klinket? Did the Shim Shin fight with the Simsion? Tell me all about the atrocities committed among the people.

what's it matter? yanno... what do you expect of natives, not to be human? of course there is going to be some inter-tribal strife, as well as intra-tribal.... so what you're really arguing here is that yes, we are human in that sense, too. and that really lets me know the kind of things you must've been imagining about us before. but that is not my responsibility to 'fix' nor do i care....

what i do care about are matters of tribal sovereignty. so far, you have not given any kind of compelling argument as to why the united states shouldn't hold up to its end of the bargain in recognizing the rights of tribes, let alone the states being involved.... unless you think that trying your damnedest to argue that indians were mean sometimes too will get it done and somehow prove the united states hasn't been negligent in this matter :eyes:

[xchrom]

49. thank you

you are so cool and reasoned -- i was boiling over.
the whole notion of first nation people receiving ''special treatment'' is so galling. america is wealthy beyond imagination because of the ''special treatment'' that was forced on them.

[Bandit]

52. A treaty is the supreme law of the land

I agree with you that the government of the United States whelched on virtually every single treaty entered into with the American Indian. How ever I believe people are people and there were promises broken within different tribes as well. I'm not saying one nullifies the other. I think we should as Americans be liable for every agreement ever entered into. It ain't gunna happen though. My entire point and it may seem racist to you but my point is each and every American Native is an American citizen with all the rights and priveleges that go with that. They also are allowed other priveleges that other American citizens are not. You say subsistence. That is what it is called but they use brand new aluminum skiffs with fifty horse outboards and remington rifles with scopes. Mono-filiment nets and galvanized circle hooks. What about that is subsistence? They utilize the most modern equipment to take marine mammals that are prohibited to virtually every other nation on earth. This is tiring. I want the best for all peoples but I want fairness also. I certainly am not saying that a bum deal wasn't had. A lot of people in this world have been screwed and screwed again. Usually it's the whiteman doing the screwing but where we go from here is the question now. I don't believe one should be allowed dual citizenship. It has a tendency to really foul up the works.

[kispoko]

54. stuff....

-I agree with you that the government of the United States whelched on virtually every single treaty entered into with the American Indian.

nothing virtual about it...

-How ever I believe people are people and there were promises broken within different tribes as well. I'm not saying one nullifies the other. I think we should as Americans be liable for every agreement ever entered into. It ain't gunna happen though.

but that's an entirely different point aside from insenuating it *shouldn't* happen.

-My entire point and it may seem racist to you but my point is each and every American Native is an American citizen with all the rights and priveleges that go with that. They also are allowed other priveleges that other American citizens are not.


and vice versa.... ya know, on tribal lands, it's a whole different ballgame. the u.s. constitution is unenforceable there, as it should be, in favor of tribal laws. sometimes this works for the benefit of the people, sometimes it can be detrimimental. but having the autonomy itself is imperative.

just because the united states imposed citizenship is hardly an argument that natives should have to give that autonomy up in one form or another while the united states does not have to give up anything it agreed to prior.... what kind of equality is that?

were you for true fairness, any treaties voided by the united states should be able to be voided by the natives, and everything taken back to its original state before those agreements.... if you want to know where the real "special privileges" lie, were that to ever happen, you'd begin to see just what kind of privileges the united states enjoyed for so many years because of the natives had allowed that people take for granted because they do not understand the origins and reasoning for.

-You say subsistence. That is what it is called but they use brand new aluminum skiffs with fifty horse outboards and remington rifles with scopes. Mono-filiment nets and galvanized circle hooks. What about that is subsistence?

subsistance isn't reliant on being defined archaic means of procuring sustenance, is it? of course not. it is the reliance on having to do as much, period, to live. i don't care if they had lasers, that doesn't mean that because they have hi-tech equipment that they somehow don't have to rely on hunting traditional game and such to survive.... does it? how does the use of such equipment somehow mean there is a grocery store or something down the road they can go to instead for everything that's needed?

besides, you're misrepresenting the whole.

-They utilize the most modern equipment to take marine mammals that are prohibited to virtually every other nation on earth.

what peoples do you have in mind? ya know, some, like the makah in wa, which the united states does have a treaty with allowing for hunting of whales, receive a portion of the united states' allowance for whales... they should not have to rely on that, but, this is just an example of the myriad examples of such things and how certain agreements play a role in this.

i'm glad more tribal peoples rely on traditional foods.... had we all done as much, the incidence of diabetes, obesity, heart disease, and so on wouldn't be the epidemic it is now in native communities.

-This is tiring.

you're tellin' me? i have to argue with rightists over this crap all the time.... guess it shouldn't surprise me to see this kind of stuff paraded out in front of progressive circles as well on occasion, but, i do expect better all the same.... that's part of what separates us.

-I want the best for all peoples but I want fairness also.

then lobby for the united states to be fair and live up to its obligations at least half as hard as you lobby for what you perceive as "fairness" which puts the tribes at an actual disadvantage.

-I certainly am not saying that a bum deal wasn't had.

but you certainly aren't for mitigating that, are you? worse yet, you're advocating the continuation of many bum deals, hiding behind some guise of "fairness" and "equality" all the way.

-A lot of people in this world have been screwed and screwed again. Usually it's the whiteman doing the screwing but where we go from here is the question now. I don't believe one should be allowed dual citizenship. It has a tendency to really foul up the works.

you may be surprised to discover that many natives do not want this dual citizenship.... many, like the haudenosaunee (iroquois), who are fiercely sovereign (and with good reason), make their own passports, which have been accepted by other countries even.

most natives would be happy to renounce their u.s. citizenship (many actually have, and do not consider themselves u.s. citizens) and retreat to tribal homelands to be left relatively at peace, alone, to their own designs.... been doing it for thousands of years now, ya know

[Classical_Liberal]

30. nobody including Arianna is imposing anything

She is just asking that he Soveriegn indian states be treated like other Soveriegn states and not lobby the government.

[hang a left]

63. I know that this is gonna upset you

but I live in San Diego and probably gamble at least a couple of thousand dollars a year at Indian Casinos. I am not an addict, but probably go about once a month, or less, and always stay until I have lost anything I might have won. It is alot of fun. I wouldn't gamble as much though, if they weren't there. Vegas is a 5 hour drive. A half a day deal if you fly, and costs more bla bla bla.

There are alot of people in the county here that gamble, and the casinos are making lots of money. They are all expanding, building hotels, bigger gaming areas ect, ect. I think that it is great also that the Indian people are benefiting financially. I have a couple of friends and a few aquaintances that are Indians of the different tribes. I am aware that for instance, Borona Indians recieve about $30,000 a month +++++++ other payments they receive at tax time. The Pechanga Indians receive $26,000 a month +++++++ ect. I know there are other tribes that casinos are smaller so I would think they receive alot less. But there are also other Casinos that are bigger than Pechanga and Barona. There is also gaming in other counties.

I have no qualms about their enrichment, but, what is wrong with the Casinos paying taxes on their winnings? They are profiting from the vices of Californians who are spending there money at Indian casinos that have taken a serious bite into Vegas's weekend business. If you have an argument against that, I would certainly remain open minded.

[kispoko]

67. liberalnproud

-I have no qualms about their enrichment, but, what is wrong with the Casinos paying taxes on their winnings? They are profiting from the vices of Californians who are spending there money at Indian casinos that have taken a serious bite into Vegas's weekend business. If you have an argument against that, I would certainly remain open minded.


what is wrong with casinos paying taxes to states is that requiring as much is a breach of their sovereignty. it is like expecting nevada to pay california taxes because of the money californians spend there, only, much worse.... people have to understand that just because tribal nations may rest inside a state's borders that that doesn't necessarily equate them to just another county or municipality; these are sovereign governments, and their autonomy ought to be respected.

i haven't examined the compacts the state has with the tribes, but rest assured, because there isn't the same types of gambling allowed to others aside from tribes, the state is receiving hefty sums of money from the casinos all the same because of it. it's basically a bribe, but more along the lines of extortion. it's not just california though, every state with a tribal nation inside its borders is allowed to do this and it is wrong.

again though, tribes do pay taxes. they even sometimes have to pay or collect certain taxes for states. i think though that when california and the rest of the nation pays the tribes for the land that was stolen from them that states have been collecting revenue from for years now, they can complain about not being able to tax what is essentially a foreign government in those very tribes.

[realFedUp]

12. an equal opportunity basher

keeps her getting invitations to all the parties...

[disgruntella]

13. i agree with you kispoko

I don't have time to jump into a long debate, but I just wanted to say I am also disappointed by this statement. Not that I really have all that much stake in an "Arianna" candidacy (I'm not in CA & wouldn't vote for her anyway) but she is showing ignorance of history and the legal status of tribal members in the U.S. I hope if she does get called on it, she takes some time to learn the history of the relationship between Native people and the U.S. Government.

[spooky3]

15. Huffington email

Why not write to her? I'm not sure if this will actually be forwarded to her but here goes:

[e-mail]

[kispoko]

16. thank ya

thanks for suggesting an e-mail, and even supplying one.... i just tried through her campaign site, and will do so again with this one. can't hurt.... i also forwarded a link to this very discussion.

my hope is that perhaps she will alter her views some... she's done it before, and that was part of why i admired her so much. i would like to again, but find it hard with such a backwards position as this, and fear what she may try and do to the tribes if she is elected. it's they i'm most concerned about, not any type of image i've had shattered of arianna

[newyawker99]

18. Hi spooky3!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Classical_Liberal]

31. Kispoko didn't quote Arianna

She was talking about their Casinos lobbying the government, then claiming Soveriegn Nation status. Soveriegn Nations aren't allowed to lobby the government.

[Emboldened Chimp]

19. I think you're overexaggerating just a bit.

I heard what she said on Washington Journal and it did not smack me as being racist. She wants to tax the tribal gaming industry. So what? They make money hand over fist. Yes, we committed horrible acts of genocide in the past and stole the Native American's land from them. But this is the past. There is nothing we can do to change it. I agree that there must be some sort of reconciliation for our tragic past, but I don't think not taxing gambling is the answer. We need money to fix this mess, and tribal gaming offers a viable revenue stream. If we don't plug the holes, people will suffer and be hurt because of deep budget cuts. We need to work something else out. These are, after all, desperate times.

[sangh0]

21. Don't be an apologist for genocide

Yes, we committed horrible acts of genocide in the past and stole the Native American's land from them. But this is the past. There is nothing we can do to change it.

I know some murderers who agree with you. "Yeah, I killed him, but locking me up won't change that"

We may not be able to undo what was done, but that doesn't mean we can't even try to make up for it somehow. You may think this is odd, but IMO, "Get over it!" is not an appropriate remedy for genocide.

I notice you are eager, in these "desperate times", to "work something out" Funny how when it comes to the govt's problems, "we *NEED* to work things out" but when it comes to the attempted genocide of Native Americans, it's "the past"

[Emboldened Chimp]

22. Typical kneejerk reaction

Which is exactly what I expected. How can you even think that anyone would apologize for genocide? That, my friend, is a sick line of thinking.

My point is, there is nothing we can do to change what happened. Of course reparations have to be made. But how? What do you do to make up for that kind of atrocity? It's unfathomable, imo, to even begin to make up for something like that. Does that mean we forget it? Of course not. First thing I would do is make sure our children are properly educated as to what happened. Same goes with slavery. Americans have no clear knowledge as to how our country was really formed. That should be the first step, imo.

[sangh0]

24. Yes, your reaction was knee-jerk

but some of us think we should do more than just ignore the crime. And some of us don't think taxing Native Americans is the proper way to acknowledge attempted genocide.

It's unfathomable, imo, to even begin to make up for something like that.

Of course it's "unfathomable" to you. But the Native Americans do have some ideas on the subject, and taxing their casinos is not on that list.

Does that mean we forget it?

No, it means you ignore, or give it nothing more than a passing reference because "it's history"

You seem to think that the attempted genocide has nothing to do with our currrent policies towards Native Americans because we can't change history. I'd like to suggest you speak to some NAtive Americans. They have some ideas as to how the US might make at least partial amends. They go a lot further than your "first step"

[Emboldened Chimp]

25. Instead of attacking me

Why don't you list your suggestions as to how to make ammends?

They go a lot further than your "first step"

Are you suggesting that educating peole as to what really happened is wrong? That's surprising, actually. I thought you would support such an idea. Okay, we'll keep people ignorant, just as you wish.

And my, weren't you so clever with your subject line. Brilliant.

[sangh0]

26. Not attacking you

I'm attacking your argument, which is to do nothing about the past crimes of attempted genocide because it happened in the past, and that can't be changed.

Why don't you list your suggestions as to how to make ammends?

They are not my suggestions; They are well-established procedures for dealing with such crimes - Compensation, Reparations, and Punitive Sanctions.

Okay, we'll keep people ignorant, just as you wish.

Breaking News - It's not my job to educate you. If you want to be educated, go educate yourself. You have the Internet at your fingertips. Go use it.

Demanding solutions from someone else is a common means to avoid dealing with an issue.

[Classical_Liberal]

32. When did he say he wanted to do nothing about genocide?

?

[Emboldened Chimp]

33. Uh-oh, someone's true colors just came out...

Breaking News - It's not my job to educate you. If you want to be educated, go educate yourself. You have the Internet at your fingertips. Go use it.

Sounds like a conservative argument to me: "You're on your own, pal!" BTW, I wasn't talking about educating me; I was talking about our children. And yes, it is our job to educate them.

They are not my suggestions; They are well-established procedures for dealing with such crimes - Compensation, Reparations, and Punitive Sanctions.

You said they have specific ideas in mind on how to make reparations for our killing of Native Americans and the theft of their land. I assumed--wrongly, I guess--that you knew said suggestions. Oh, well.

How, and why, would the U.S. government punish the U.S. government?

Compensation in the form of federal dollars to boost local economies on reservations would be a good idea. But I think that states should then be allowed to tax incomes, particularly on gaming. The point would be to bring these communities to the point where they can thrive on their own. Once we take on the responsibility of making these communities whole again, we should tax them fairly like everyone else.

[sangh0]

34. Be honest

I wasn't talking about educating me; I was talking about our children. And yes, it is our job to educate them.

You asked about what Native Americans wanted, so I suggested you do some research. You weren't asking about children. That came later. And it's a topic too complex for me to do justice with a post on DU.

You said they have specific ideas in mind on how to make reparations for our killing of Native Americans and the theft of their land. I assumed--wrongly, I guess--that you knew said suggestions. Oh, well.

Yes, they do have specific suggestions. If you want to learn about them, do some research. As I said above, "it's a topic too complex for me to do justice with a post on DU"

How, and why, would the U.S. government punish the U.S. government?

For the same reasons they have done it before - because they committed a crime. When the Dept of Agriculture discriminated against black farmers, govt lawyers sued the Dept of Ag, and the govt paid a settlement to those farmers. The govt has paid for Japanese internees, etc.

Compensation in the form of federal dollars to boost local economies on reservations would be a good idea.

That's one of their ideas, but it does little good if an equal amount of money flows out from the reservations because their casinos are being taxed. You're clap-trap about wanting to bring Native Americans "to the point where they can thrive on their own" is undermined by your suggestion that increasing taxes on them will lead to independence.

Once we take on the responsibility of making these communities whole again, we should tax them fairly like everyone else.

Talk to me AFTER we have made them whole again.

[Emboldened Chimp]

38. Get it straight

You asked about what Native Americans wanted, so I suggested you do some research. You weren't asking about children. That came later. And it's a topic too complex for me to do justice with a post on DU.

I wasn't talking about what they wanted re: reparations. Read back a few posts. I was talking about awareness to the American populace in general. One thing Native Americans want, as well as African Americans, is a proper teaching of American history in schools. This is what I meant.

Yes, they do have specific suggestions. If you want to learn about them, do some research. As I said above, "it's a topic too complex for me to do justice with a post on DU"

No need for a disertation; I thought you'd throw out a few for argument's sake.

That's one of their ideas, but it does little good if an equal amount of money flows out from the reservations because their casinos are being taxed. You're clap-trap about wanting to bring Native Americans "to the point where they can thrive on their own" is undermined by your suggestion that increasing taxes on them will lead to independence.

Tribal gaming executives are quite wealthy, therefore independent. As a part of reparations, they were allowed to accumlate enormous wealth tax free. Now that these executives are thriving, they should be taxed. And as someone mentioned above, they use this wealth to lobby government for favorable legislation. If they can use their wealth to influence government, especially if said legislation affects Californians in general, then they should be taxed.

Talk to me AFTER we have made them whole again.

I hope this does come to pass, not only for them, but for other communities as well.

[kispoko]

48. eh....

-Tribal gaming executives are quite wealthy, therefore independent.

what? they're 'independent' because they're wealthy? i'm not following...

yes, some of the casino executives are quite wealthy.... the people are still mainly poor, and see little of that except through health care, education, and other services the government was supposed to proivde for per agreements but has failed miserably in doing so, not holding up to its end of the agreements made.

native people will deal with their own affairs though. they don't need oversight by anyone with a paternalistic bent.

-As a part of reparations, they were allowed to accumlate enormous wealth tax free.

i can't believe that you actually think the tax code is a part of "reparations" for natives, let alone that natives have even received reparations.

casinos are not reparations. being a sovereign entity, is not a 'reparation,' nor is it a 'special privilege' anymore than the united states enjoying these same things, particularly its own sovereignty.

and that 'enormous wealth,' imagined or not, is never tax-free.

[Classical_Liberal]

58. No it isn't part of reparations

but indian gaming was tolerated out of guilt in many respects, since they allowed indian casinos in most states where they wouldn't allow them in the general population for a long time, basically in order to create economic growth. Now if the wealth from the casinos isn't being distributed this sounds like a problem with the wealthy indians who control the casinos and not the government. You realize you are asking us to spare a bunch of wealthy indians from taxes for the benefit of the still poor indians who need government services supported by taxes. What the heck kind of sense does that make?

[kispoko]

61. classical 'liberal'

-but indian gaming was tolerated out of guilt in many respects, since they allowed indian casinos in most states where they wouldn't allow them in the general population for a long time, basically in order to create economic growth.

and, where were these places at now?

bullshit it's "white guilt." it's another scheme by the states to make money off of tribes. you have no understanding of indian law... i'm not expecting you to, but what i do expect from someone who doesn't is not to try and pass themselves off as though they did.

they had to pass a law in the '80's to even allow tribes the same rights as others in allowing gaming operations, up to class III (think vegas-style casinos). and even now, tribes can only have what states will allow. see any casinos in utah? any in massachusetts? any in rhode island? do ya think it's because tribes there just don't want any or somethin'? do you know why some tribes are allowed to operate certain types of gambling while the general population isn't, per se? because the states found another way to siphon money from tribes.... in agreeing to allow tribes exclusive rights to, say, class III casinos, the state gets a certain amount of the proceeds, often quite substantial. it's extortion, plain and simple.

what this all boils down to is sovereignty though.... so i'll just ask why it is you feel states out to have any business in the affairs of tribal governments? a direct answer would be great since i couldn't get that from anyone else, and that's the real issue here.

-Now if the wealth from the casinos isn't being distributed this sounds like a problem with the wealthy indians who control the casinos and not the government.

not always... and not every tribe distributes the money in the same ways. some receive a stipend, usually something just enough to augment already low wages the people receive, and in extreme situations, enough to make the people very comfortable.... and some tribes do not dole funds out at all, except through social and economic programs. most tribes who have any type of gaming at all do not have the kind of money available to do much of anything with, except for to provide some jobs, a bit of tourism, and a little increased funding into tribal programs.

-You realize you are asking us to spare a bunch of wealthy indians from taxes for the benefit of the still poor indians who need government services supported by taxes. What the heck kind of sense does that make?

your question makes no sense that's for fuckin' sure because the issue isn't, nor has it ever been sparing alleged wealthy indians from taxation and the merits thereof.

the issue has always been about the rights of tribes, including the right not to have their sovereignty chipped away or abrogated entirely by states through such measures as taxing and controlling what economic ventures tribes can and cannot have.... where have you been throughout this entire discussion to have missed what it's all about? christ....

[kispoko]

47. manco...

-But I think that states should then be allowed to tax incomes, particularly on gaming.

why? tribes can't tax non-tribal residents for their own purposes, so why should states be allowed to tax tribes?

it's not an issue of "fairness" though, because were it, you'd see the unfairness of a system which makes tribes subject to the whims of state governments which were never intended to be able to have any sort of say whatsoever.... per u.s. law, not per my humble opinion on the subject. and that's where the problem comes in; not enough understand of the encompassing issues, of the laws, even of our own constitution in that matter, and too much uneducated opinion.

tribes are still subject to federal taxes though.... making them subject to the laws of other foreign, and lesser, governments such as states is like ohio deciding to make the people of west virginia bend to their tax codes and statutes, even though they're in west virginia. only in this instance, it's much worse

[kispoko]

46. thank you sang0

another gem :)

ya know though, tribal casinos *are* taxed. tribes pay all applicable federal taxes, and even some more taxes states have to pay. on top of this, tribes suffer further insult when they have to abide by certain policies of states which were never intended to have any autonomy over tribal affairs whatsoever.... having a lesser, foreign government be able to mandate certain things to you and then further siphon money off of you as states have been doing in some fashion through one new scheme after another for 200 years, really adds injury to injury.

[sangh0]

64. You're welcome

It's ironic that after more than 100 years of screwing Native Americans and breaking treaties with them, manco wants to be "fair" by breaking agreements the various states made to not tax the casinos.

[kispoko]

44. nice post sangh0

-Yes, we committed horrible acts of genocide in the past and stole the Native American's land from them. But this is the past. There is nothing we can do to change it.

I know some murderers who agree with you. "Yeah, I killed him, but locking me up won't change that"


-I notice you are eager, in these "desperate times", to "work something out" Funny how when it comes to the govt's problems, "we *NEED* to work things out" but when it comes to the attempted genocide of Native Americans, it's "the past"


lol, yeah :)

they act as though native people want so much.... i'm sure it seems like that though when you don't feel as though they deserve anything.

honoring the treaties and respecting tribal rights, in our own homelands, would be fine though, and a step in the right direction for america to *really* resore honor and integrity. we're not asking people to grovel or send in money, or even have to come in contact with us :P just allow what is deserved, what was agreed to, and we'll be fine left alone

[Emboldened Chimp]

45. Nice post?

The guy insinuated that I approve of genocide. Screw him, and screw you, too.

[kispoko]

50. i don't think so

-The guy insinuated that I approve of genocide. Screw him, and screw you, too.

i didn't read it that way... i read it as attacking, umm.... ol' what's name. but the point is, i didn't read it that way.

screw on

[kispoko]

53. hmm

actually, i suppose he was attacking you.... i think i missed your statement then.

either way though, it did come across as tantamount to making apologies, instead of dealing with the issues we're left with.

[kispoko]

40. manco...

-I heard what she said on Washington Journal and it did not smack me as being racist.

i didn't say it was, or if i did, didn't mean it to imply she was.... for me to believe that, i'd have to believe her intentions were/are racist, and i don't. she's just ignorant here.

-She wants to tax the tribal gaming industry. So what?

so what? that's worse than california trying to tax nevada. what don't you understand about tribal sovereignty? apparently, a lot, like most of the american people.

-They make money hand over fist.

good

-Yes, we committed horrible acts of genocide in the past and stole the Native American's land from them. But this is the past.

it never stopped, so no, it isn't 'the past.' you have no idea....

and what does that have to do with tribal sovereignty anyway?

-There is nothing we can do to change it. I agree that there must be some sort of reconciliation for our tragic past, but I don't think not taxing gambling is the answer. We need money to fix this mess, and tribal gaming offers a viable revenue stream.

so doesn't stealing oil from iraq. some things are just morally, ethically, and legally wrong. california has no right to use tribal nations as revenue streams just because they are within the state's borders.

-If we don't plug the holes, people will suffer and be hurt because of deep budget cuts. We need to work something else out. These are, after all, desperate times.

they have always been desperate times for american indian peoples, because american indian peoples are usually the first to be exploited for some kind of gain. advocating stealing tribal funds as a revenue source for a lesser government is just more of the same.

[disgruntella]

41. exactly

The issue is not about taxing wealthy casino executives, or making reparations to Indians because of historical injustice and/or white guilt -- it's about tribal sovereignty. And since there are so many tribes with drastically different relationships to the U.S. government, it is a complex issue.

[Bushknew]

23. Link?? I need proof she said that.

I need proof she said that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Get The Transcript From C-Span

I saw it at 11:00 AM EST

[Classical_Liberal]

28. She is referring to their Casinos specifically.

The casinos claim they don't have to pay taxes becasue they are soveriegn nations, but then they also claim a right to lobby the government, which no other soveriegn nation can do.

[sangh0]

35. Not true

Foreign govts are allowed to lobby the govt. After 9/11, the Saudis launched a well-publicized lobbying campaign in the US.

[Classical_Liberal]

36. Link? I know of a publicity campaign but lobbying officials is illegal

That is why they went after Wen Ho Lee.

[sangh0]

37. They went after Wen Ho Lee for spying

and no, no link

[Classical_Liberal]

39. 18 United States Code 219 Foreign Agents Registration Act of 1938

Lobbying Disclosure Act of 1998

The laws relating to foreign lobbiest.

[kispoko]

51. classical liberal....

she did refer to tribes, not their casinos specifically, which are just an extension of the tribes anyway, as "special interest groups."

and she claimed tribes pay no taxes (they pay the same federal taxes as everyone else, plus some other states do not have to pay). that's a lie, and as well, she's obviously insenuating she believes they ought to be made to pay taxes to california.... that is wrong, and that is what i'm taking issue with, as well as the "special interest group" comments.

[Classical_Liberal]

55. They are special interests.

So are Irish Americans and German Americans. Why don't your produce a quote!s Well here is the link to the entire program and her entire quote.

http://video.c-span.org:8080/ramgen/ndrive/project/cal/cal082003_huffington.rm

"He(Bismumante) is getting millions of dollars from Indian Gaming tribes. This is one of the reasons why theys(the indian gaming tribes) are getting away without paying taxes(on their gaming profits) despite massive profits!"

It should be pretty clear to most of us she is talking about their profits from gaming.

[kispoko]

62. grr

-So are Irish Americans and German Americans.

neither irish or german americans comprise sovereign governments within the united states.... relegating tribal NATIONS to the same status as the nra or the american immigration control foundation is fucking offensive :mad:

you don't consider mexico a "special interest group" do you? hell, i bet you wouldn't even consider california a special interest group; and they don't even enjoy a sovereign status at the level of those tribes within their borders.

-"He(Bismumante) is getting millions of dollars from Indian Gaming tribes. This is one of the reasons why theys(the indian gaming tribes) are getting away without paying taxes(on their gaming profits) despite massive profits!"

It should be pretty clear to most of us she is talking about their profits from gaming.

you left out the part about her reference to tribes as "special interests." that was one point. another is, arianna is perpetuating a lie there about tribes not paying taxes... the real issue is whether or not tribes should have to pay taxes to california, which is in itself a matter of sovereignty....

please explain why it is you feel california should have that kind of control over tribal autonomy.... or, at least give it a shot. this is getting absurd, and obscene.

[1opinion]

42. Arianna is a charature of herself.

[robbedvoter]

56. I apologize for this trash! Rich GOP-er who doesn't pay taxes herself

has no business telling anyone to pay anything. Whatever she pretends to be these days, her true colors are showing: she got hers, screw anyone else! Her entire presence in the recall is proof enough that she's looking exclusively for #1, just like Arnuld. Just because she's more articulate than the aged body builder, her position is not in the least more defensible.

[Classical_Liberal]

57. Sure it is. She is a liberal

and Democrat Busumante is running too, and of Davis, Arnold, and Bisumante, she has the positions that are most like an actual democrat.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. Some facts about gaming and tax revenues from an admittedly biased site

The following is a summary of the 1998 study:

Indian gaming currently contributes approximately $120 million in State and Local tax receipts annually, including $36.6 in State Personal Income Taxes, $23.6 million in State Corporate Income Taxes, $48.6 million in State and Local Sales and Use Taxes, and $9.0 million in other taxes and payments in lieu of taxes.

Indian gaming is estimated to have reduced AFDC payments by $50.0 million, including reductions of $21.0 million to Tribe members and an additional $28.9 million to other former recipients.

74% of Indian gaming customers surveyed indicated that if Indian gaming were not available in California they would go instead to a casino in Nevada, thereby reducing income, jobs, and tax receipts in California.

Total casino revenue generated directly by Indian gaming in California, in casino concessions, approached and estimated $1.4 billion in 1997.

Gaming patrons' expenditures at local non-casino businesses, which totaled and estimated $273 million in 1997, creates additional direct revenue.

Indian casinos employ and estimated 14, 571 California residents, 90 percent of whom are not Indians.

In addition to those directly employed at casinos, Indian gaming supports an estimated 33,800 additional jobs in California through subsequent rounds of spending by employees, vendors, construction firms, tribal governments and other affected businesses.

The jobs created by Indian gaming are predominantly located in counties with historically high rates of unemployment and low per capita income.

http://www.indiangaming.org/info/pr/presskit/statistics.shtml

[Yupster]

66. Susan Estrich sure ripped into her today

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/9/067186-3319-021.html

[kispoko]

68. state compacts

here is the information on the state compacts with the gaming tribes, and what 'fees' it already collects:

n FEES TO STATE FOR EXISTING MACHINES
First 200 Zero
Next 201 through 500 7% on machines.
Next 501 through 1000 7 - 10% on a graduated scale
All machines over 1,000 13%

All fees are waived for first two years of compact.


and they say the indians don't pay any taxes? that's worse than the rate residents have to pay.

http://209.217.226.34/documents/a_brief_overview_of_the_davis_co.htm