Uneducated Americans: The Insurance Policy of the Rich

[Ripley]

I read an article in my paper today that said:

snip>

According to a survey last year by Chronicle of Higher Education, the president of the University of Texas system was the highest paid in the nation at $787,000.

snip>

At a time when college tuitions across this country are rising on average of about 20% (California 30%) why are these "CEO's of Universities" paid such exorbitant salaries?

Are we heading to a new America where ONLY the wealthy can attend college?

Years ago I knew a guy who moved with his divorced mother to Europe where he received an excellent "free" college education. Is this still true? If Europeans are still providing "free" (quotation marks because I realize their taxes help support it) higher education to their citizens, this would explain many things.

Like how they refuse to let their government's engage in illegal wars. It also explains why the rich and powerful influences in America portray the Europeans as "Bad" (for symbolic reasons i.e. soft on terrorism which they blame on their socialistic structure).

An educated country is more likely to be progressive and just.

How can the USA be the blue-print for Freedom when it's system of education is based on Oligarchy?

(BTW: This is not to say that folks without a college degree aren't "educated" and cannot succeed. However historically, America's goal has been progressing towards helping all of it's people obtain the highest education they could in order to have a strong workforce and middle class as well as the by-product of having a well-informed citizenry.)

[gottaB]

1. I'm with you 100%

:kick:

[rfranklin]

2. Americans are dumb and ignorant event though highly "educated"

Even those with advanced degrees are ignorant of world affairs, intolerant of other cultures, and extraordinarily chauvinistic.

They are dumb because they vote Republican, thinking that their middle class existence will be preserved by that party when it is shipping their jobs off to India at a rapid clip.

[Ripley]

4. Maybe in MBA world....

but in the rest of the University world...science, art, education, people are not programmed to "hate" certain parts of the world.

But you are so right about shipping jobs to India...they're taking all of the support jobs now.

[chadm]

7. Easy...

there are plenty of MBA's in the Progressive movement. David C. Korten is one.

It's true that many MBA's are brainwashed, it's also true that they understand the business / economic world intimately enough to understand what's wrong.

I'm an MBA, by the way.

[SharonAnn]

24. Me too! I got my MBA, learned the tools, but kept my morality.

MBAs don't have to be immoral or even amoral.

[MassDem4Life]

28. I've got news for you

MBA's are not programmed to hate certain parts of the world.Face the fact that most public high school graduates are ill-equipped to succeed in college. thats why 74% of incoming freshmen need remedial courses in reading, writing, or math.

[Gin]

14. case in point....SHRUB !!!!!!!!!!!!!

lights are on but nobody is home.

[maveric]

3. Keep em ignorant, poor and happy to be able to keep their min-wage jobs

After all the ignorant are more likely to beleive all the bullshit that the ruling class shovels on them. To be servile and compliant.
Public schools are set up to fail for that reason.

[jiacinto]

23. I really hate this arrogant attitude

It sound so self-righteous to call people who aren't college graduates "stupid".

[jafap]

27. And nobody reads my post #8

Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Is there anybody out there?

[MassDem4Life]

29. further news flash

It is not in the best interest of business to have an under educated work force.

In fact, business biggest complaint across the country is a lack of skilled(read educated) job applicants, that is why a lot of large corps. have teamed up with local universities to underwrite educational courses to enhance their applicant pool.

When I applied for a managerial position in 1992, I was shocked to be given a simple math, and reading test. 100 math questions, and three paragraphs, to correct punctuation.

I was told that I ONLY had 90 minutes in which to complete as much as I could. It took me 17 minutes to do both. Only got 1 wrong.

[Kellanved]

5. European higher Education is still "free" in several nations

The student has only to pay for public transportation and for the student unions. In my case that's 400€/year. In Germany there is a generous student-loan program to back it up ("BAFÖG"; 50% is loaned; 50% is given). This is needed, as there are hardly any dorms.
There are huge downsides however: the quality of the service is decreasing rapidly, as some genius 80s politicians had predicted that there would be fewer students in the future and thus cut the funding.
The number of students is still rising.
The Universities are mass-universities; nobody will watch out for you; you have to decide everything yourself; you have to buy most books yourself, as the libraries are outdated...


And: Although there is success in getting students from abroad to study in Germany; there are bureaucratic obstacles, making it difficult to keep those graduates in the country - a stupid thing.


Differences in the System:
You need an "Abitur" to study. It's the diploma of a pre-academic High School ("Gymnasium"), which takes the role of American colleges. Especially in the southern conservative states it's difficult for socially weak families to get the kids through that school.

There are Universities and vocational colleges ("Fachhochschulen")- Fachhochschulen were meant to educate students, who have not quite achieved the level needed for an University. They offer a more school like curriculum; teaching not only scientific but practical skills as well. The problem is: there are too few places for all the applicants, leading to long waiting lists.


Waiting lists:
The German constitution guarantees everyone the education he wants.
As there aren’t enough capacities for some majors there is a thing called NC (I’m oversimplifying). Meaning: The people with very good Abitur-marks can study where they want, when they want. People with marks not that good can only choose when, Those left are put on a waiting list; increasing their standing each year.

Edit:

A completed apprenticeship counts as an Abitur for some majors.

[Ripley]

9. Sorry, but I can't help but laugh at this part:

"you have to buy most books yourself"

Hahahah...Americans buy all of their books. And often they buy them at used book stores, where they are trashed or have certain passages highlighted. Which explains why the stupid people keep emerging from American schools time after time....they read the same stupid highlighted passages.

[Kellanved]

10. really?

That's the part most consistently attacked when comparing German to American Universities.

Of course the media (and the conservatives) only use the ivy-league for comparison.

[Ripley]

11. I'm unclear on what you are saying...

Which part is most consistently attacked?

[Kellanved]

13. Having to buy the books oneself.

[Ripley]

17. Do you mean that Americans say they are

better, or whatever adjective you want to use, because they have to actually "buy their own books?" Is that how Europeans see it?

Because if so, they really need to know about used book stores on campus. They are recycled books which are affordable but dubious in educating new students. As I stated above, a lot of US citizens simply memorize the highlighted texts, maybe they pass, maybe they fail, but they emerge with a singular importance. (Of course, this reflects poorly on the teaching staff as well, who would use tests over and over.)

Books should be read clean. Or at least people should ignore the highlights (as I tried to do in college) and read the rest to form your own "important passages."

[Kellanved]

20. Ah - no

I was aiming at the German self-criticism. My statement was based on the German media's reports and an ongoing debate. This debate is being led at an extremely low level, claiming that renaming the degrees would improve the education and so on.

[pescado99]

6. polotics and education - like water and oil

It is very nearly impossible... to become an educated person in a country so distrustful of the independent mind.

James Baldwin (1924-1987)

[sweetheart]

12. second that quote

Getting a real education takes inspiration to be a free and independent mind to start with... a rare quality these days.

Scotland has excellent universities, and very low fees as they are all publically subsidized. Sure, it is no way to create a pinnacle of global excellence... but who needs that anyway.

What the university fantasists have spaced out is that real education degree programmes are taught (vs. research), even at graduate level... and this sort of education is universal, not dependent on some special teacher or school... but such thinking is too relational for a heirarchical bunch of poeple who perceive the skull and bones club as the very very top in academic reality.

only since i've lived in britain have i had my schooling challenged on my weakest area (Being american educated mostly)... classics... even classical economics, french and latin origins, historical realities of the 16th century.

Sadly american education presumes the "progressive myth" as well described in "lies my teacher taught me"... and once realized as a myth... it is really sad to see that "progressivisim" has been used to forget and erase the greatest lessons of history as too old to be relevant to a progressive society.

[jafap]

8. I have posted this before

but the myth of educated = progressive is just that. Read the last chapter of "Lies my teacher told me".

From a 1971 poll 60% of people with college education supported a withdrawal of troops from Vietnam, the number was 75% for people with high school education and 80% for adults with only a grade school education. Our schools are not the tops in teaching critical thinking.

[QC]

15. Great article on this

and related matters: http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030901&s=hutton

[Kellanved]

19. Yes, but I want to comment on some points.

1. Unemployment is counted differently here; the west-German 8% are actually a lower unemployment than in the US. (We do not only count people searching, but everyone). The 10% in whole Germany are far too high tough. At least the Economy seems to take off again now.

2. Schröder is attacked by all sides for doing the right thing.

3. The low dropout rate is not entirely correct. There is actually a law that stops underage students from dropping out. The University dropout rate is astronomic compared to the US. And don't forget the draft catching every dropout - there is a really good reason to stay in school.

4. Our Neo-Cons want pretty much to copy the US system (from private Universities to Welfare and Healthcare)

5. The current Wellfare-queen debate makes live difficult for people defending the social net. (Two cases: http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_949830_1_A,00.html and http://www.bday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1409436-6078-0,00.html )

[sweetheart]

21. A queen's council quotes from the obserer editor!!!!

:-) Will hutton is right... and his argument is as deep as it is broad.... a must read: "the world we're in" by will hutton.

American industry is only as good as the goodwill of all americans believing in the social experiment.

[SoCalDem]

16. College is what High School used to be

A generation ago, a person could support a family with a job attained on the basis of a high school diploma... Companies had "on the job" training for high school grads and it was a learn while you earn proposition.. A young person had a decent shot at getting a union job, and having a pension, free health care, and decent working conditions...

That was one reason that people married younger.. A 21 yr old guy COULD support a family with just his salary..

Fast forward, and now even an MBA does not guarantee a decent job..

A whole new element has been introduced into the workplace.. FEAR... Fear that YOUR education is not good enough...Fear that you will lose that job and with it, the few perks that are there... Fear that you will start a family and then get laid off and not be able to support the family... Fear that if you do not "readily give back" , your boss will cut you out..


Our whole school system needs updating...

My plan:

K...6 yrs old.. starting kids too early is NOT the good idea once thought

1-6..elementary

7-9..jr high

10-12..high school

2 yr community college

3 yr regular college

k-community college would be FREE...

Kids are going to college too young anyway, and it takes longer than the standard 4 yrs to get a degree ...

the 3 yr college should be 50% cost for instate students...and guaranteed admission to top 5%... Kids might actually try harder if they knew they could afford college..

post grad would be totally on the student for payment..


It would mean entering the job market at an older age..(more reliable??)

The 2 yr community college requiremnet would force states to upgrade their community college systems and take some of the load off the regular colleges.. The student would have no more than 2 yrs post high school to take advantange of the "free ride"....Lots of kids would probably not even want to go anyway, so there should be room..

As far as tests go... midterm..final.. one national/state test in the spring.. Teaching "to the test" should be forbidden.. Tests should reflect what you have learned, not what you have learned in order to pass the test..

Every grade should be required to teach
math
science
music
art
world history
US history
civics/govt
english/spelling/grammar
economics (apropos to grade level)
critical thinking


:)

[Ripley]

18. WOW, thanks for that input!

I will have to think about all of those points, but you are obviously well into the discussion...

Edit: are you a public school teacher?

[SoCalDem]

30. Not a teacher...just a Mom who saw what education had become

when my kids were in school..

[SharonAnn]

26. That's great for those of us who go on to college, but what about

those who need/want some education after high school but not college?

[SoCalDem]

31. The two year free education after college could be other forms

than just the community college, but at the community college near us, you can take classes in just about anything, so there would probably be something that would appeal to just about anyone.. and the assoiciate's degree would at least be a start to a career or further education..

Lots of kids "waste" their freshman and sophomore years at college, because they are sometimes "catching up" on stuff they did not learn in HS, or they are goofing around trying to figure out WHAT they even want to study..

The 2 year FREE post-HS education would bridge that gap from 17/18 to 19/20, and by then they would have taken enough courses to at least know what they did NOT want to study..

The binge drinking that goes on at the "regular" colleges is partly due to the fact that so many freshmen and sophomores are UNDERAGE, and drink at every opportunity, to be "naughty"..

A community college would at least offer some parental input for those first few years and by the time they went to the 3 yr college, they would have gotten some of the rowdiness out of their system..

Just an idea..:)

[camero]

32. Great post, thank you

I turned down gov't help for college over the factors you just described at 18 (36 now). They had wanted to send me to a deaf school in Rochester, NY and I felt at the time that I would not fit in because I could still hear.

My interest was rekindled by seeing the country and some of my more knowledgable friends convincing me that I should attend a college.
Not to really get a degree but to add to my knowledge of the world around me.

The problem is since education is being cut here in FL, there are no community colleges in my area (I would have to drive more than 50 miles to attend one in another county). The rest here push you into a career, but where do you go if you just want to learn? One or two courses a year max. And please don't say use the internet because there really is no substitute for a good teacher right there next to you.

[jiacinto]

22. You know what

I can speak about this issue. I just graduated from an MA program in May, and I am overburdened with student loan debt. I am going to be repaying for 30 years. It will be very tough for me to make ends meet.

College is increasingly becoming way too expensive for even upper middle class and for families making $100K a year. Even though student loans are available, when a student comes out of school, owning in many cases in excess of 100K, it is very hard to stay afloat.

I know about this all too well.

[jafap]

25. you made two mistakes

1) you should have gotten an assistantship and taught/researched your way through grad school

2) you should have kept going to the PhD. I have found both my MA and my BA to be worthless. At least I only paid for my MA with time and not cash.

[jiacinto]

33. Well

I didn't want to in debt further. As for option #1 I should have investigated that more. But whatever the case may be I do agree that the cost of education is becoming absurdly expensive. And I will probably be in debt the rest of my life.

[Ripley]

34. Granted I only had to pay back my loans for a BFA,

no post-grad loans, but I didn't find it too horrible to pay them back. But then again, I did without a lot of things. I did not buy a new car or fancy clothes or take vacations for awhile.

But what you are saying about the current state of loans makes my point even more profound. Even if low-interest loans are available to help students, the thought of being in debt for the rest of their life is probably a good incentive for them to just say "no thanks."

[jiacinto]

35. Well

I try to live cheaply, but that can only go so far. It is really hard to make ends meet at first.

Tuitions are rising way too high, and financial aid budgets are being cut. It is even worse for those families who are middle to upper middle class who, while they aren't poor, get screwed over via financial aid formulas.

College is very expensive and the salaries that most people get coming out are hardly enough to pay back the loans. I see people working blue collar jobs and making somewhat good money for their level of education; and while I am glad to make it to school, I wonder what it must be to live debt free without any loans to pay back.

But then again those people probably have just as hard as a time. And they probably want an education. So I really can't complain. Life is just difficult.