send more troops? are you kidding me?

[mopaul]

how will this solve the problem? there are more iraqis who hate us over there than there are soldiers to counteract them. we are outnumbered by people who are resisting our military occupation. they are a conquered people, under rome's foot now, and they are not going to suddenly become westernized and americanized over night.

imagine omaha, nebraska has been forcefully occupied by an arab military, thousands of nebraskans slaughtered, and more arab troops coming in all the time. would YOU resist them? of course you would.
this is viet nam all over again. not a direct comparison, but close enough to be a warning to us all.

where will these next troops come from? will there soon be a draft?
i think we should cut our losses and get the hell out of there and call it a victory. cause you know they'd never call it a failure.
it's a pride thing now.

[DemBones DemBones]

1. You watching C-SPAN, too, mopaul? How about the

wingnut caller who suggested that we "take a bunch of these prisoners that we're warehousing" and send them over there, put them on the front lines.

Yeah, THAT would work. . . :eyes:

Our troops, who have been trained and are motivated to succeed, can't handle things in Iraq so we should just send in any warm bodies to be killed or kill, who cares which. :eyes:

[Robin Hood]

32. That chickenshit didn't volunteer to go himself.

typical freeper. Bwaaackk, cluck cluck..

[FlashHarry]

2. Actually, we CAN'T leave now.

That would be the only thing worse than what's going on now. We need to go to the UN or NATO with our tail between our legs and BEG for foreign troops. Possibly even Arab troops of some sort. We need to let the Brits run the place or at the very least train our troops--they have FAR more experience doing this sort of thing. They need to establish a police presence, not just a military one. Our troops were trained to invade, not police.


If we leave now, the vacuum that is created will be filled almost immediately by an oppressive regime of some sort (even more repressive than the Bremer regime)--probably Shi'ite fundamentalist, possibly Wahabi'ist/Al Qaeda/Ansar al Islam. It will make 90s Afghanistan look like Boca Raton.

These fuckers started it. Now they need to finish it.

[LostInAmerica]

4. You have nailed it, FlashHarry

You're dead on. The power vacuum our departure would create could lead to circumstances that no sane person would want. Not only could the country get turned over to some crazy fundamentalist types and become Afghanistan II, but there could be a brutal civil war to fill the vacuum. And does anybody really think that we're going to risk having the world's second largest oil reserves fall into the hands of virulently anti-American Islamists? One turn of the handle as it were and they could cripple our already stuggling economy. Hell, even peaceniks like myself don't want to see that happen.

If we don't go to the UN with hat in hand, issue the world's most sincere mea culpa and beg for peacekeeping troops, then this mess will go on for years. The cost in American lives and treasure will be overwhelming. Still, there's no way we can pull out. If we go the UN for assistance and they tell us to go lay in the bed we made, then we are screwed, blued and tattooed. Leaving is not an option. As much as I support the military families who are demanding the return of their loved ones, these people, sadly, are dreaming. It isn't going to happen, not anytime soon, at least.

Can you say "quagmire?"

[Mari333]

14. Bring ALL the troops home NOW

dont expect MY son to go over and die for the BFEE


www.bringthemhomenow.com

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. We must hand over control

to the UN or NATO. Our troops are not trained for this type of mission. All they are really good at is destroying things, they have no clue or desire to rebuild. Especially, when they have leaders like Rummie and W, for whom that sort of thing is just not on their agendas.

Look at Liberia, we didn't want to get too involved and it's too soon to tell, but they may be much better off has a result. We've turned our backs on the Liberians and let the UN and other African countries go in and for the moment the killing has stopped.

However, in Iraq because we are so hungry for their oil and because we have so much to hide, we are doing our best to keep folks like the UN out.

So instead, in Iraq where the US is in charge, the situation is turning into total chaos. We got rid of Saddam in March, Taylor went into exile less than two weeks ago. In Liberia, where we are trying to stay out as much as possible, there is peace for the moment and they just picked a new leader today. In Iraq, people are blowing up places like the UN Headquarters. What's wrong with this picture?

[tedzbear]

22. I agree!

We need to turn the whole enchilada over to the United Nations and get our troops out now!
* and his Fortune 500 buddies will have to share the oil in their sandbox if they want the rest of the kids to play. Otherwise, they will play alone.
:kick:

[Hubert Flottz]

5. Brown and Root is going to reap the windfall cash!

Let 'em send their own Army! Why should the American taxpayer fund Brown&Root's Cash Cow! What thanks do we get for funding the oil war? Gouged again at the gaspump is our reward! So if the Wealthy Petrol Bankers are going to reap the Bennies let them pay for the war and let their kids fight in Iraq for the money they will one day collect TAX FREE!

[leftofthedial]

6. there are not enough storm troopers on earth

to execute the agenda of these sick pukes. PNAC and Bushco

[catmandu57]

7. Welcome to the clusterfuck baby

We don't have enough troops there now because of darthrummy's wet dream of roses and iraqi virgins lying prostate in the streets waiting to be deflowered by blonde, blue eyed amerikans.
We can't control the cities and give up the pipelines and oilfields, we can't gaurd the pipelines and oilfields and give up the cities.

The troops stationed there want to come home their job is done, their famalies want them home yesterday. The Iraqis want us gone, Underpants lost a fortune in the rose market.

We are spending at a lowball estimate four billion dollars a month on this military quest for empire, meanwhile our own infrastructure is crumbling.

We can't control the situation, we don't know where the replacements will come from. The third and fourth ID will be renamed the Iraqi divisions.

The chimp pulled the pin on this hand grenade, if their weren't americans being killed I'd be jumping for joy at his fuckup. BUT, American's are dying daily, we don't hear about all the attacks taking place, we are so fucked.

[Hubert Flottz]

8. Other than that, would you say the war is going well in Iraq?

Rummy/Bushco no doubt are working on new secret weapons as we speak! ZEE Master Race Vill not fail!

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. So what's their next October surprise?

I doubt for their next performance that they will be making any announcements in advance of whatever it is that they have in store for us.

I'm betting on a secret attack on North Korea?

[Hubert Flottz]

20. The Bushi'ites are stupid, but not that stupid!

Bush is looking for paper tigers to bully around, not someone with 3 or 4 million soldiers that can fight back! Battleship mouth and rowboat ass IMHO!

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. Then what do you make of this report?

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030806.ukore0807/BNStory/International/?query=north+korea

It's been scary the heck out of me every since I found it a couple of weeks ago.

Keep in mind that there is an element of this cabal that is hell bent on fulfilling the prophecies of Revelations.

[bigwoody]

15. And where's my cheap fucking gas? I say we invade Venezuela next.

Lots of oil, many hot Miss Universe contestants, and great deep sea fishing off the coast. It's one of 20+ countries your tax dollars sent me to maraud(via ship, of course) during the Raygun years. So who's with me!?

[bigwoody]

10. Pull republican's kids out of college and send them 1st. That way at

least every other generation will have paid for their golden parachutes.B-)

[bleedingheart]

11. my sister in law leaves for Kuwait in January 2004

to start her tour of duty.

med surg nursing for our boys and girls over there...

[NoKingGeorge]

16. Would Old Europe or UN accept a token of sincerity

If we offered aWols' resignation or Rummys' prosecution would the UN or Europe see that the American people have survived this cabal and be willing to help us?

[Kellanved]

33. That's not the issue

The only thing accepted would be transferring the control - both: military and economic control.

And even then: any withdrawal of US and/or UK troops won't be accepted - the goal must be to increase the security; no nation will send troops as cannonfodder.

[NoKingGeorge]

17. Thanks for people like your sister

At least the troops over there will not feel totalley abandoned.
I hope she is back with you ,safe and sound, soon.

[maxsolomon]

12. we have no choice but to send more

maybe 50k, maybe 100k.

of we could just be honest & secure the oil fields & pipelines.

that's all we really care about.

[ignatius]

13. Hey, Israel is armed to the teeth by our tax

dollars. Being the arm of the US in the mideast, maybe they could send in troops. After all, it has worked soooo well in Palestine.

Rumsfeld(Skeletor) and his pack of neo-cons have screwed up royally. Instead of flowers and oh thank you America, we have receive a get out of town from the locals.

The UN will most likely be more reluctant after yesterdays horror and some feel that part of the motive of the bombing was due to UN sanctions over the last 10 years.

What is the answer? An international peace force perhaps. I hope the international community makes Bush an co. grovel and apologize to the entire planet for this major league screwup.

[MaverickX]

19. any evidence

Israel is armed to the teeth by the U.S.? Its not true just because you say so.

[tedzbear]

21. Try billions of dollars in foreign aid for starters...

Which buys Israel' arms. Duh.

[MaverickX]

24. billions of dollars a year? doubtful

Also why do you automatically assume foreign aid sent to Israel all goes to buy weapons? Why not cut all foreign aid to every country? Why not assume that every foreign dollar we send to say Germany buys weapons? Any evidence Israel spends most of the aid we give them on weapons? Or do you just repeat whatever bs the Arabs spread about Israel?

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. So Israel didn't get a $9 billion dollar loan guarantee today?

Israel, U.S. Sign Loan Guarantee Accord

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030821/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_us_security_barrier_1

I'm sure I can easily find more examples of US foreign aide to Israel with a couple of google searches.

edit: sp.

[MaverickX]

26. thats not what I'd consider foreign aid...

It's a loan with specific rules on how it can be spent.

[berry]

27. I suggest a google search with "US aid" + Israel

Too many links to list--and you'll have to decide which ones you trust. I just went at random to the first link:



US Aid: The Lifeblood of Occupation
By Matt Bowles
08/21/2003

http://www.wrmea.com/html/usaidtoisrael0001.htm

<<This year, the U.S. Congress approved $2.76 billion in its annual aid package for Israel. The total amount of direct U.S. aid to Israel has been constant, at around $3 billion (usually 60% military and 40% economic) per year for the last quarter century. A new plan was recently implemented to phase out all economic aid and provide corresponding increases in military aid by 2008. This year Israel is receiving $2.04 billion in military aid and $720 million in economic aid there is only military aid.

In addition to nearly $3 billion in direct aid, Israel usually gets another $3 billion or so in indirect aid: military support from the defense budget, forgiven loans, and special grants. While some of the indirect aid is difficult to measure precisely, it is safe to say that Israel's total aid (direct and indirect) amounts to at least five billion dollars annually.

On top of all of this aid, a team from Israel's finance ministry is slated to meet with U.S. government officials this month about an additional $800 million aid package which the Clinton administration promised Israel (and the Bush administration later froze) as compensation for the costs of its withdrawal from Lebanon. The U.S. also managed to find another $28 million in the 2001 Pentagon budget to give Israel to purchase "counter terrorism equipment."

According to the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), from 1949-2001 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $94,966,300,000. The direct and indirect aid from this year should put the total U.S. aid to Israel since 1949 at over one hundred billion dollars. What is not widely known, however, is that most of this aid violates American laws. The Arms Export Control Act stipulates that US-supplied weapons be used only for "legitimate self-defense."

Moreover, the U.S. Foreign Assistance Act prohibits military assistance to any country "which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights." The Proxmire amendment bans military assistance to any government that refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and to allow inspection of its nuclear facilities, which Israel refuses to do. To understand why the U.S. spends this much money funding the brutal repression of a colonized people, it is necessary to examine the benefits for weapons manufacturers and, particularly, the role that Israel plays in the expansion and maintenance of U.S. imperialism.>>

Go to the article for more. Clearly, this author is against military aid to Israel that is used against the Palestinians. But I very much doubt that he would try to support his argument with false data. As I said, however, there's lots about this on the web--all you have to do is look.

edited to correct a link and some apostrophes

[MaverickX]

28. I don't trust google searches..

Basically it allows you to pick and choose what to believe.

[berry]

34. I see. Then do you have a list of news sources that you trust?

And you refuse to read anything else, and judge for yourself?

Anyway--Here is an article about military aid to Israel from a source I know better--the World Policy Institute at The New School in NYC. Very reputable.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

U.S. Arms Transfers and Security Assistance to Israel
An Arms Trade Resource Center Fact Sheet
by William D. Hartung and Frida Berrigan
May 6, 2002

<<Military and Economic Aid Since 1976, Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.

In recent years, Israel remains the top recipient of U.S. military and economic assistance. The most commonly cited figure is $3 billion a year, with about $1.8 billion a year in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) grants from the Department of Defense and an additional $1.2 billion a year in Economic Support Funds (ESF) from the Department of State. In the last decade FMF grants to Israel have totaled $18.2 billion. In fact, 17% of all U.S. foreign aid is earmarked for Israel.

For 2003, the Bush administration is proposing that Israel receive $2.76 billion in foreign aid, with $2.1 billion in FMF and $600 million in ESF. An additional $28 million will go to Israel for the purchase U.S. manufactured counter terrorism equipment. Weapons Sales and Grants Israel is one of the United State’s largest arms importers. In the last decade, the United States has sold Israel $7.2 billion in weaponry and military equipment, $762 million through Direct Commercial Sales (DCS), more than $6.5 billion through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program.

In fact, Israel is so devoted to U.S. military hardware that it has the world's largest fleet of F-16s outside the U.S., currently possessing more than 200 jets. Another 102 F-16s are on order from Lockheed Martin. The United States has also underwritten Israel’s domestic armaments industry, by giving:


$1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled)
$625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow anti-missile missile (an ongoing project)
$200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative); the latest version, the Merkava 4, uses a German V-12 diesel engine produced under license in the U.S. by General Dynamics
$130 million to develop the high-energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing).While overall aid to Israel is slated to decrease over the next five years, military aid will increase significantly. One of President Clinton’s last acts was to sign an agreement with Israel, phasing out the ESF by 2008. At the same time, FMF funds to Israel will increase $60 million each year, reaching $2.4 billion by 2008.

Free Weapons to Israel

The U.S. also gives Israel weapons and ammunition as part of the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program, providing these articles completely free of charge. Between 1994-2001 the U.S. provided many weapons through this program, including:


64,744 M-16A1 rifles
2,469 M-204 grenade launchers
1,500 M-2 .50 caliber machine guns
.30 caliber, .50 caliber, and 20mm ammunition>>

<<lots more at link>>

[DisgustipatedinCA]

29. Are you addled?

Are you so pro-Israeli that you're willing to put blinders on for all to see? Last year, they got 12billion. This year, it's 9billion. The vast majority of that goes for arms procurement from the US.

If google is an Arab plot in your estimation, I'm not sure how to advise you on confirming this. Suffice it to say, it's COMMON KNOWLEDGE that we give or loan Israel billions per year. Egypt is in second place, by the way.

Be pro-Israel if you like, fine by me. But please don't display foolishness like this in such a public forum. Visitors might think we're rank idiots or something.

Thanks.

[MaverickX]

30. I'm not that pro-Israel..

I just don't think we're helping Israel build up their weapons that much. That aid basically just helps their govt to constantly run deficits.

[MaverickX]

18. of course we need more troops there..

I just don't believe there is a huge organized resistance to our troops being there. DUers need to stop thinking that just because they say something makes it true. We do need more troops there and hopefully its not just U.S. troops. However, you can't just take out a nation's govt and just leave. The people that want to do that are ideologically driven and could give a shit about international security.

[PATRICK]

31. Dem twist on the LBJ election

No draft no escalation. We've heard that before. We're living this again. If you fall for a flight inot unreality because you TRUST one guy, a SECOND time, who exactly has blood on their hands? Right now it is the leadership and the media. A mandate for Bush will seal our national guilt for good.

This is a bad summer rerun, very very bad.