What the hell did Jefferson mean here on church and state?

[suigeneris]

I'm a Jefferson fan, my favorite freethinker, but hadn't stumbled on to this bit from his Second Inaugural address before:

"In matters of religion I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the General Government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it, but have left them, as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of the church or state authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies."

The question is, how is this compatible with the wall of separation?: "I have ... left {religious exercises} ... under the direction ... of the church or state authorities..."

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres17.html">Thomas Jefferson: Second Inaugural Address

[FlashHarry]

1. How 'bout this?

When he says, "of the church or state authorities," by using the word 'or,' he makes an unequivocal distinction between church and state.

[JustinCredible]

2. It doesn't matter

what Jefferson thought. Our founding fathers had no idea what it would be like in 2003. They set up the Constitution to allow for the Constitution to be interpreted in different manners, by different people throughout the rest of History.

All that needs to be done, is for the Supreme Court to find a reasonable argument of an interpretation of the Constitution. That's why it matters so much who gets into those positions of Justices.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. One more that the Republicans NEVER use:

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (quoted by) Mark 10:25

Said by a known troublemaker. Jesus the carpenter, who hung out with other ne-er do wells, like publicans (bar keeps), prostitutes and revolutionaries. He also thought a lot of the poor and working folks and preached socialist ideals.

From a Republican perspective, he got what he deserved.

on edit: This was meant to be posted to the original poster - or the group. I'll figure it all out one day.

[denverbill]

3. Jefferson coined 'wall of separation'.

Read this 1802 letter to religious leaders.

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Mr. President

To mess? Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. (Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.) Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

edited: part of letter dropped because it was bracketed. Added back in.

[NewGuy]

4. This goes back to a time...

when some of the states had primary religions. It predates some of the later ammendments which tied the states to the requirements of the federal constitution.

[Wwagsthedog]

5. Politician

Jefferson was a deist using presidential weasel words to avoid a political commitment to anything so as not to offend or promote religious postions.

[suigeneris]

10. Yes, you're on to something important.

He was a wily politician and had just been through another election in which federalists had attacked him very effectively as being an infidel or an atheist, at the least a freethinker. His response was to hold his personal religious view quite close to the vest and give a public impression that presented him as more of a Christian than he was.

[whirlygigspin]

6. Hari Krishnas?

whatever happened to the seperation of church and state?

Did Parousia Bush loot that too?

God bless John Ashcroft, Hallelujia ,ajamba wiggi loalatiti.

[Brian Sweat]

7. Buy "state authorities", I don't think he means state governments

but the governing bodies of the religious orders.

[suigeneris]

11. Well, the language...

where he says "I have ... left {religious exercises} ... under the direction ... of the church or state authorities..." could be interpreted that way, but it wouldn't be the ordinary apprehension of those words, do you think?

This has got to have come up before. I'm hoping there is some clear scholarship on it. So far the Web has let me down - but it's a big place, eh?

Keep thinking.

[Brian Sweat]

16. I think it is pretty clear.

He said, "...state authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies."

If he had meant the state governments, I don't think he would have included the bit about them being "acknowledged by the several religious societies." State governments do not need to be acknowledged by religious societies and religious societies are not in the habit of acknowledging state governments as far as I know. On the otherhand, many religious denominations have statewide leadership organizations that are acknowledged by the member churches.

If you analyze the statement in terms of what makes sense, there can be only one interpretation.

[QC]

8. At the time Jefferson was writing,

the Bill of Rights was only understood to apply to the federal government. States could and did sanction religious activities.

If we've got some legal scholars here, maybe they can fill us in on how the Bill of Rights came to apply to the states.

The letter from Jefferson quoted above was a reply to a letter from a group of Baptists urging him to avoid any government attempt to mandate religious beliefs. People often forget--Lord knows it's easy to--that Baptists were among the very first advocates of church/state separation in this country.

[GumboYaYa]

12. There is some debate on whether the Bill of Rights

was applicable to the states prior to the Civil War. The 14th Amendment effectively ended that debate.

[rock]

9. Are you sure? It sounds more like a Dubya quote to me

(Rolls around on the ground laughing his fool head off)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. Tom also said of the influence of religion in government

"In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to
liberty; he is always in allegiance to the despot, abetting his
abuses in return for protection of his own."


Sounds like Tom could have been talking about the fundamentalist preachers of today who just love duh-dubya.


"If the obstacles of bigotry and priestcraft can be surmounted,
we may hope that common sense will suffice to do everything else."


A quote I don't expect to hear spoken by any of the candidates. Too bad.

And one more, not particularly cogent, and not Jefferson, but I like it anyway.

"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves
you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."

[sandnsea]

15. Capital C Church

Let's get the whole quote first...

"In matters of religion I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the General Government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it, but have left them, as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of the church or state authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies."

First, the church here probably refers to the Anglican Church as that was the main Church of the day and the one people objected to having set up as the official religion. He is saying the Church may direct their religious exercises but also the state authorities can ensure the freedom of religious exercise for the several religions outside the main Anglican Church. It gives States the ability to protect the various religions in their State, not prescribe how religion will be exercised in the State. This probably refers to the way each each State set taxes, land set asides and the like for the benefit of religious exercise, not the State being allowed to make laws regarding the methods of exercise of religion. Laws regarding how religion will be exercised have never been defined by any State.

Regardless, Alabama's 1901 Constitution states:

"That no religion shall be established by law; that no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect, society, denomination, or mode of worship; that no one shall be compelled by law to attend any place of worship; nor to pay any tithes, taxes, or other rate for building or repairing any place of worship, or for maintaining any minister or ministry; that no religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this state; and that the civil rights, privileges, and capacities of any citizen shall not be in any manner affected by his religious principles."

Their own Religious Freedom Act really doesn't say much more than this, although I guess they think it does.

"The purpose of the Alabama Religious Freedom Amendment is
to guarantee that the freedom of religion is not burdened by state and local law; and to provide a claim or defense to persons whose religious freedom is burdened by government."

I still can't figure out how any law has prohibited or caused a burden to anybody from exercising their religion, well at least not Christians. Anyway...

Their own State Constitution says 'no preference shall be given'. Clearly the Ten Commandments placed at the State Judicial Building gives preference and an implied endorsement of one religion over all others. And I don't see how removing the Ten Commandments is hindering any person from exercising their religion.

It may have been fine to have Christian symbolism 100 years ago when all white citizens pretty much were Christian. We live in a different world now and these people are just going to have to catch up.

[suigeneris]

17. Thanks for the response. The dufus in the debate thinks...

that because Moore's actions don't involve a law that they are lawful (aren't establishing a state religion.)

[sandnsea]

18. Endorsement is the standard

Not a specific law. Just more Crusader lies. And I think maybe we should start calling them Crusaders.

[carpetbagger]

19. Pre 14th Amendment

States could have official religions. Jefferson fought hard in Virginia to abolish state support of the Anglican/Episcopal Church, and organized the state governance, university, and schools largely along the lines we see nationally today. However, until the passage of the 14th Amendment, the rights under the federal constitution did not apply to what the states could or could not do.

[sandnsea]

20. But did they?

I don't know of any state that passed a law establishing a State Religion. Would really like to see it if it exists.

[PATRICK]

21. It wasn't a wall

but a principle. In practice the wall went up because of abuses and practicality to SAVE the principle from being overwhelemed and the evils
from triumphing. Jefferson didn't want to dictate the issue from the government on down and in fact there is a long history of doing nothing until those "state authorities" started dealing with immigrant pressures
upon the original balance. Suddenly they had to look in a mirror and admit they had established a FORM of Christianity that primarily in the schools drove Catholics and others out of the public school system.

What Jefferson chose not to do was done gradually anyway, the same way as the nation could not avoid the formation of political parties. Nothing wrong here in principle, just that the history of practice in experimentation had not happened. Hindsight would not help if the lessons had not been learned. We'd still have the resentment, the abuses, the tensions.