Who is Dennis Kucinich?

[gully]

http://dennisthemenace.blogspot.com/

"We thought he was great. Then we did the research. Now we understand Dennis Kucinich is not an acceptable choice for President."

Wow, lots I did not know, provided it's true?!
:freak:

Don't want to stir the ol' pot to much gang, but as they say, know thy enemy. If DK gets the nom, his supporters need to be prepared for the worst. I think b/c he is not a front runner, there hasn't been as much vitriol towards him as there has towards Dean or others?

Disclaimer, this is food for thought, I am not responsible for the content of this blog mmmmkkk?

Thus I say...Prepare Dennis supporters, if DK does as well as you'd like, you'll need to.

[Proletariat]

1. He is a radical leftwinger who should bow out of the race.

With his 2 amigoes Sharpton and Braun. I also think Graham needs to go.

Clark-Dean-Kerry-Lieberman-Gephardt-Edwards

Six candidates. Short and sweet.

[gully]

2. There is a Dean comparison, did you check it out?

I thought it interesting.

HEY!!! I love radical leftwingers BTW. But, I'm not so sure Dennis is ? ;)

[JasonBerry]

10. CHAIRMAN of the Progressive Caucus

and has the most progressive record in the congress on foeign policy and economic issues - period.

The link is total trash.

I wonder why so many Clark people are here to try to win friends by tearing down good Democrats?

[gully]

17. UHM, I'm a Dean supporter ... you talkin to me?

[gully]

31. That's great, and Dean won the Wellstone Award...

I think there are many suitable candidates in this race personally.

[ErasureAcer]

53. Welllstone wasn't for the Death Penalty and 400 billion pentagon budgets!

Kucinich is the most wellstonian...

Dean is just evil.

[gully]

63. Kucinich wasn't for choice...so your point is?

Dean is evil, and Dennis is a saint. I get it, and we hear it all the time in a round about way, dont we?

Dennis wasn't for choice, gay rights or being fiscally responsible.

Once again I say all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses do they not?

You wont find me saying "Dean is the only real choice or the only true progressive," because it isn't true. It's also not true about Kucinich...

[DemBones DemBones]

71. In the here and now, Kucinich is pro-choice, pro-gay marriage,

anti-capital punishment. In the here and now, Dean is pro-choice, hasn't said whether he supports gay marriage (waffled about it on Larry King) and pro-capital punishment for the crimes he considers deserving of it.

[gully]

84. Waffled, he signed a bill for goodness sakes...

He said he will not force a church to marry gays, but he will support civil unions on a governmental level.

That's not waffling, that's seperation of church and state.

And Howard Dean has pledged to review the Capital Punishment process to see that it is not biased as it is currently.

Here are his words;

"I believe the death penalty should be available for extreme and heinous crimes, such as terrorism or the killing of police officers or young children. But it must be carried out with scrupulous fairness."

***Although Dean supports the limited use of the death penalty, he is not the death penalty zealot some have made him out to be. Specifically, he has called for an evaluation of the federal death penalty system, passage of federal Innocence Protection Act, the establishment of a Presidential Commission that would review federal and state capital punishment systems. In addition, he has attacked the Bush Administration for its knee-jerk use of the death penalty.

Here's more

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_capitalpunishment

[AnAmerican]

66. Whoa there

Calling Dean evil is not gonna win any friends. Granted, I personally think Dennis is better suited for the WH but I do not denigrate Dean either. Let's not stoop to bashing the other candidates.

Debate the issues....don't name call.

[ErasureAcer]

122. Dean is evil!

How else would you describe a 400 biilion dollar pentagon budget and continued American hand waving over the world? Not only that, he supports the death penalty...KILLING!

The man is evil in my eyes...and perception is reality.

If you think America acting as God and sending millions of people to their deaths across the world, and killing americans(mostly black americans) is a sign of a saint in making...well then you're something I can't say do to board rules...but it isn't good...trust me on that.

Dean is evil!

End the Empire...cut the fucking pentagon budget.

[IranianDemocrat]

150. Great way to win elections after 9-11.

Cut the pentagon budget. Just look at Kucinich's poll numbers and you'll see why cutting the pentagon budget is not a great idea right now.

[xJlM]

90. Dean stole a line from Wellstone, you mean.

The democratic wing of the democratic party?

[gully]

105. Actually Wellstone heard it from someone else first...her name fails me.

There is no copyright on that statement. Also, Dean gave credit to Paul Wellstone for that statement on several occasions. So, that's really not a 'fair and balanced' issue as far as I'm concerned... ;)

:boring:

[JasonBerry]

3. So.....

Your name here at DU is Proletariat - but you want the one guy who stands up stronger than anyone for the real proletariat....to drop out???? I don't think so. Radical left-winger? Where does Dennis Kucinich differ on ONE major issue from the platform of the Democratic Party as approved in 2000???? Maybe you are in the wrong party!

[JasonBerry]

4. By the way....

Your avatar is also a bad choice if you feel that way. Sounds like you have a beef with the Democratic Party!

[Proletariat]

7. I don't follow you

[JasonBerry]

11. It's Gully's Avatar - sorry. N/T

~

[Proletariat]

5. Department of Peace? gimme a break

lol his candidacy is a joke. He is the Gary Bauer of the left wing.

[diamondsoul]

54. And you are a disgrace to General Clark.

Welcome to ignore, Bozo.

[sujan]

95. you candidate can't even decide if he's a democrat

Hey if he decides to go independent or Republican, would you vote for him?

[gully]

104. he he...that's a snicker.

:P

[IranianDemocrat]

151. nope.

I'm a democrat first, clarkite second.

[gully]

6. Look at the blog...

:shrug:

[Ardee]

25. Sheeesh Gully what motivation.....

Did you have to hold your nose while reading that assortment of half truths, right wing railings against Kucinich's promise to uphold the laws of the land vis-a-vis a womans right to choose, while having the guts to admit his personal beliefs, unlinked accusations about his support for politicos unknown to anyone outside of Cleveland and the rest?

Ill bet the farm that, had that been an anti Dean blogsite you'd be up in arms about it right now! The simple facts are that Kucinich ,while mayor, took on an assortment of corporate criminals, had some great successes and left Cleveland better than he found it.This garbage is as if I said Howard Dean had a great record as an environmentalist while governor, namely total bull.......

[gully]

29. Check the sources, it's not a Right Wing site

No I wouldn't be up in arms about an Anti-Dean site, I think it's good preparation.

Read the entire blog. Your gonna need to know what people are saying if DK goes 'anywhere'.

[Ardee]

94. I did read that site, every single blathering post

and found little credibility there, little accuracy, little linking of claim to source, and little reason to believe anything posted there.....this is a rather clumsy hatchet job, one which would be dismissed out of hand by anyone without an agenda...I wonder what yours might be?

[CWebster]

98. Contest it point by point

rather than a sweeping dismissal.

[XanaDUer]

8. In some ways, that's how bad the party has gotten

DK runs on real Democratic issues. We have moved so far to the right in the USA he is seen as some kind of radical left-winger.

Which I don't see him as, actually, but as a fairly wonderful potential Prez candidate.

A true prole, and I mean that as a compliment.

[blm]

9. Exactly...Dennis is a true blue LOYAL Democrat...

He is NOT radical or a leftist extremist AT ALL.

[gully]

12. He actually has some very conservative votes under his belt.

Perhaps he's a more of a centrist?

[blm]

23. Only a few....

based on personal feelings and that of his aged, Catholic constituency who he loves dearly.

And he is HONEST and can be trusted when he alters his positions. Unlike many other politicians.

[gully]

24. I understand that...but seperation of church/state are progressive/liberal

issues are they not? I also think he is probably trustworthy, but that is questioned by many because of his change on choice before the election.

I do like Dennis and respect his passion personally, but again, it's about knowing what can/will come up in the campaign.

[buddhamama]

30. glad you think so...

"...seperation of church/state are progressive/liberal"

so you won't be supporting a candidate who allows religious beliefs to discriminate against the Gay community or Faith Based programs,etc,etc, right?

[gully]

32. I'll support who ever has the best chance to beat Bush...

Kucinich
Lieberman
Nader
Dean
Kerry

ect... See my avatar. That is my postion...

Whoever has the best chance to turn this train around and 'begin' a headin in the right direction.

Who's your candidate of choice?

[buddhamama]

34. Kucinich

but i'll vote for the others.

[gully]

35. here, here...

[DemBones DemBones]

80. Re: Separation of church and state

Kucinich supports the right to choose abortion, going against the Catholic Church's position.

Kucinich supports equal rights for gays and lesbians, including same-sex marriage, going against the Catholic Church's position.

Kucinich supports publicly funded contraceptive education and availability, going against the Catholic Church's position against artificial forms of birth control.


'Nuff said.

[gully]

83. Glad he's changed his position on these...seems he and Dean agree

today on the issues above.

[gully]

27. I agree...

[JanMichael]

14. Heh. My thoughts exactly! DK is as Pro-Prole as anyone.

Too Left Wing?!

How about too mealy mouthed Centrist?

Or too lying sack of shit CONservative?

Yeah. I love these threads.

[Proletariat]

16. He wants to remove the US from the rest of the world

He wants to downsize the military dramatically, he wants to throw free trade out the window (Clinton policies), etc

[DemBones DemBones]

43. No, he wants to bring us back into the world community that Bush*

has backed away from. Bush* has abandoned treaties and made a "preemptive" strike on Iraq on the false pretext that Saddam had WMD and was a direct threat to the US. The world is not best pleased with the US right now but Kucinich will use diplomacy to befriend our neighbors again.

Kucinich will RAISE military pay and veteran's benefits.

Kucinich pledges to end NAFTA and the WTO because they have allowed corporations that care only about the bottom line for their investors to lay off American workers and export their jobs to a company with cheap labor. Kucinich is a friend to labor, a friend to the working man and woman, not a friend to cheap labor conservatives.

Kucinich will make fair trade agreements with other countries. Fair trade agreements protect the rights of workers and the environment ("free trade" agreements do not -- those "cheap labor" countries don't have workers' rights or environmental regulations that are as strong as ours and that allows US companies to outsource work very cheaply of, as in Mexico, build plants that operate more cheaply because they pollute the environment.

[Revolutionary Mama]

155. Not really

He wants to cut the fat in the military for starters. And if you want to talk about economy and the military, let's talk about how our troops are doing in Iraq with the ever-frugal Pentagon and Bush administration.

He can successfully keep all the bases open and pay well. In fact, as I recall, he sounded off about the way the Bushies were handling military pay, VA healthcare and benefits for the retired folks. I'd think, that would be important to you like it is to Dennis Kucinich, who hates for people to suffer whether they're hard working laborers, or military folks serving our country.

Cut the fat... That is, executive level fat. What's so wrong with that?

As for the global trade matter... Dennis never said anything against ***fair*** trade. However, I can offer you a very strong argument against the trade policies of today and how they add to international resentment toward the USA, as well as growing woes here at home. As a laborer with tenured experience in manufacturing and relative production jobs, as well as, service industry work, I feel I have a voice, just like the rest of the real majority. But for me, I've also be researching for years on this. I began that shortly before I'd enrolled in school to become an investigative journalist.

I can tell you that Dennis has better ideas if you're open to learning what's on his mind and why. All I know is that every working class person I know, especially those struggling to survive and the lucky ones that are still unionized and making liveable income certainly haven't dismissed me when I tell them about Dennis' background and his ideas. Their faces light up. There's a part of them saying, "Is this too good to be true?"

Most are Democrats, some are Republican, others are alternatives that will vote for Ralph Nader if a pro-corporate sellout that says one thing to working people, then turns around and kisses corporate tail like Clinton, Gore and Lieberman are reputed for doing.

You may wish to take a clear-eyed and serious look at the job situation in this country and not by consulting anti-labor Bush Cartel's manipulated stats. I don't know how informed you are on the number of industries that have literally crap-canned American workers in favor of cheap foreign labor, but that's just a part of that NAFTA and WTO global trade nonesense that inspired people like me to resent corporations and their elite-lobby presence in our political centers. Maybe, these issues don't bother you, but they bother me.

Our global presence is obviously not very popular with the people of the world these days. It hasn't been for a very long time, either. I get involved in serious discussions with international friends. Among them are self-employed folks, independent contractors, manual laborers, farmers and service industry workers. They've got a lot of gripes about the unfair US business policies affecting their lives. Just more growing global resentment toward our country. That's really how violent attacks on Americans start, ya know. Personally, I know a lot of things that certain U.S. citizens in high places (government leaders, government agencies and corporations) that have instigated much of what's held against us and done against us. Care to learn more?

[DrBlix]

38. Who is Dennis Kucinich?

The man that gets my vote. But of course anyone that gets Ariel Sharon's endorsement is OK with me as well.
.
http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000119.html

[gully]

42. Tired Dean rhetoric that I've seen before. I've also seen the other side

Thanks

[diamondsoul]

52. IOW you like Rethug lite.

Whoopie for you. The rst of us have some sense, and if you're a Clark supporter, you shame him.

I like the guy, quite a bit. If Kucinich doesn't make it, he's my next choice, IF he runs. If Kucinich does make it Clark is my VP choice.

You'll do nothing but alienate good people like me who could easily support Clark with nasty commentary like this.

[Ein]

86. I'm a radical leftwinger

I guess I should blow out any glimmer of hope I have of the Democratic (Supposedly left wing of this country) party.

[John_H]

87. If a Dem did this blog

they ought to be ashamed of themselves. They're doing the Rethug research dept's work for them. It's just flat out meanspiritedness, since everyone knows that DK won't be around for anyone to vote for in the primaries.

It's an attempt to make a dem look bad, pure and simple.

[diamondsoul]

111. Well, I personally think you're very wrong-

about this- "It's just flat out meanspiritedness, since everyone knows that DK won't be around for anyone to vote for in the primaries."

He will indeed be around to vote for in the Primaries. That's one little fact I'm completely certain about. What possible reason could he have to drop out of the race before then? Lack of support? Please. If support is all you see Kucinich working for, you've completely missed at least half of his purpose in running.

Some things really aren't all about "winning" in the commonly accepted sense. Kucinich has already "won" at least half of his hoped for prize. I'm proud as hell to be a part of that.

No offense intended, and I'm not offended by what you wrote, myself. I just wanted to give you and others something to think about where DK's candidacy is concerned.

[John_H]

157. No offense was intended by me either

and you should be proud to fight for your man--that's what primaries are all about.

Lots of times though,candidates decide its time to stop spending other people's money for a race they can't win. Actually, its the right thing to do. I'm fully prepared to be proven wrong, but my guess is that DK will reach that point before the first primary.

[IndianaGreen]

120. Kucinich is not a "radical", nor he is a "leftwinger"

Kucinich advocates traditional liberal ideas, which does not make him a radical, and he does not call for the abolition of capitalism, which does not make hima a leftwinger.

I am a radical leftwinger!

[durutti]

154. LOL

Quite a statement from someone with that handle.

Go ahead, Dems. Abandon the left. Dig your own graves...

[Capn Sunshine]

13. I don't know about Dennis

But this constant astroturfing by Clark supporters is trying my patience.

hey, all you new Clark supporters! Don't get me wrong, I think your man is qualified. Try commenting on something----anything--- else! DU has lots of topics and lots of boards.

Or else you just look like you're only here for one thing only.
:nuke:

[gully]

15. HOnestly I'd love to learn about Clarks positions...

Can you post a thread about them???

[Revolutionary Mama]

156. When did Clark enter the race?

As far as I know, some guys with military experience started the draft Clark campaign, but so far Clark hasn't entered the race.

If glowing reports are true about him, I'd like to see him in a position where his military experience and his diplomatic skills work. After all, let's not forget that there's more than one executive office needing to be filled as the dirtbags now occupying them are ousted.

And I'd certainly need to really get into Clark's head and heart regarding issues of medical and dental care, elderly care, labor issues, issues of small businesses being buldozed by corporations, how Clark would handle the issues that drive foreigners to want to blow us off the face of the earth... And what his idea of diplomacy means. Is it, "We'll cut a deal giving your country this or that, but we'll get the better end of the bargain in this offer you can't refuse," which is old hate with American civil leaders... SOmething I've grown very sick of during the past two decades.

[Proletariat]

19. Atsroturfing? how? I said I didn't like Kucinich.

How is that astroturfing?

[Capn Sunshine]

20. its style and substance , my carpet laying pal.

:0

[Proletariat]

21. whatever (nm)

[tjdee]

28. If your first post was replying to the original message, gully is for Dean

Not Clark. I am unsure why two people in this thread jumped to that conclusion?

[JanMichael]

22. Dude I'm with you. The Clarkites are doing nothing but HARM their boy..

Obnoxious, full of contempt and some barely decipherable.

Someone should notify the Clark "Campaign" and let him know how badly he's being represented on the biggest Liberal/Progressive/Left activist site on the Web.

Like you, I actually LIKE CLARK, but these numbskulls are doing harm to his standing here.

[jos]

18. A bunch of bullshit

The Perk business is an old charge. So what?

He's the most progressive Democratic in the race. That's what's important.

[gully]

26. Most progressive? That's the claim I have issues with personally.

I dont think his record bears the 'radical left' or progressive label? Perhaps I'm spoiled coming from Wellstone country? But, that is my view upon learning the facts and I'm takin (on the record, not spin.)

[jos]

33. On non-"social" issues he is.

Look at his economic and foreign policy record, and tell me who in the race is more progressive.

[gully]

36. Provide some links would you?

Thanks, I'll check back later... I'm off for now, expecting company.

Carry on folks...

I'm not gonna trash DK personally, but I like to see a balance here. ;)

Also, I think social issues are as important as economic and foreign policy issues personally. So the term progressive it's a matter of perspective ey?

[jos]

49. Here's his site

Read his stands on the issues.

http://www.kucinich.net/

[Tinoire]

50. Please Gully! Bring it on! Bring it on civilly!

And you can PM me anytime! I WELCOME these discussions. If you have any specific questions/concerns about Kucinich- I'm sure most of us would love to address them as long as they're sincere. I sure would.

Ask, ask- how else can anyone ever learn?

[gully]

57. I have no questions about Dennis Kucinich, I've studied all the candidates

Do you have the impression that I'm in-sincere?

[Tinoire]

102. I hadn't read the blog when I posted that

I never had the impression you were insincere based on other interactions we've had and I do welcome debate but I just clicked on and skimmed the blog... It is pretty obviously pure hate and has no sincerity to it. Why would you post that instead of asking your own questions or posting a real article? Hmmm Gully.

[gully]

123. I've said why I posted it on several occasions.

I posted it to discuss. Discuss we did. I feel it was very sincere. Sincere in it's dislike for Dennis Kucinich as a politician.

Who decides what articles are 'real', hmmmm? You didn't like the content, it doesn't make it 'false'.

Perhaps you should start your own blog to counter this one? Then you can call it 'false' on your blog, and for you it will indeed be 'false'...

[DemBones DemBones]

69. Let's look at social issues then. Dennis Kucinich is pro-choice and

pledges to require support for Roe v. Wade in any person he nominates for SCOTUS. His past pro-life votes are being made into an issue by some but those who do ignore the facts that he quit voting that way about two years ago as he reconsidered his position; he made a formal announcement of his new pro-choice position; he has since not only voted against but spoke out against the only abortion-related legislation to come to the House floor, the partial birth abortion ban; Kate Michaelman of NARAL believes that he is truly pro-choice now; and several other Democratic candidates also have a pro-life history.

Most importantly, Kucinich pledges to require support for Roe v. Wade in any person he nominates for SCOTUS.

Your guy, (I'm speaking to gully here), Dean, is pro-choice but I believe he has refused to say he'd use a pro-choice litmus test to determine SCOTUS nominees. Is that correct?

I believe that Dennis Kucinich has viewed abortion as a pro-life issue, not a sexual behavior issue, in that he was, and still is, concerned about the life lost in an abortion. His pro-life view was in line with the Catholic Church's position, but his pro-choice stand is in complete opposition to the Church's stand on abortion.

Dennis Kucinich opposes capital punishment. Capital punishment is another pro-life issue.

Howard Dean supports capital punishment in certain cases -- for killers of
children and polic officers.

Dennis Kucinich has unequivocally opposed the war in Iraq from the time it was first discussed. Kucinich is not a pacifist but thinks we should practice diplomacy to avoid war. He has said he would have no problem ordering the military into action should the need arise. Opposing war (whether true pacifism or only supporting "just" wars that meet well-defined criteria of what a "just" war is) is a pro-life issue.

Howard Dean opposed the way in which Bush* invaded Iraq but if I recall correctly, he would have supported the war if the UN had supported it. He opposes this war but I don't know his thoughts on wars in general.

On all three of these pro-life issues, I see Kucinich as being concerned about prevention. Clearly, diplomacy is used to prevent war, creating a more equitable society would prevent a lot of crime and quite possibly reduce the perceived need for capital punishment. Abortion can be prevented by steps to reduce the incidence of unplanned pregnancies (better contraceptive education and availability) and by providing financial support for women who face financial pressures to abort an unplanned pregnancy but would choose to keep their baby if they could manage it.


Dennis Kucinich supports government funding of contraceptives and contraceptive education and has for years. (The Catholic Church opposes this.)

I'm sure Dean supports contraceptive use, too, but haven't heard of any statement he's made about it.


Dennis Kucinich supports not just civil unions but same-sex marriage, with completely equal rights. (The Catholic Church opposes this. That's three issues out of three where Kucinich takes a position opposed to that of his church. Therefore, concern about separation of church and state in regard to Kucinich is a false issue, unless someone wants to object that his commitments to supporting labor and helping the poor are unconstitutional because the Catholic Church shares them.)


Howard Dean is famous for signing the bill making same-sex civil unions legal in Vermont but he didn't work for the bill nor did he sign it in public. It was commented on, in the Vermont press at least, that he signed the bill behind closed doors, with only staff as witnesses, instead of having a signing ceremony. (I've also read that he went around the state campaigning for re-election and telling voters he had to sign the bill but didn't support it.) And I heard him dodge Larry King's questions about whether or not he supported same-sex *marriage*.


Dennis Kucinich is a true progressive Democrat on social issues as well as on defense and economic issues.

[gully]

79. Nope that wasn't Deans position...

"Howard Dean opposed the way in which Bush* invaded Iraq but if I recall correctly, he would have supported the war if the UN had supported it. He opposes this war but I don't know his thoughts on wars in general."

Nope, he said the President never made his case. I think your confusing him with Kerry here?

Regarding Dennis Kucinich...

The Pro gay rights stand appears a newer position for Dennis Kucinich...as he "Won 100% favorable rating from gay-bashing Family Research Council according to vote-smart.org."

His pro-choice stand is also 'newer' because as we know "Voted against choice for poor women in DC, women in prison, women at military bases - even if they or their local taxes paid. Voted to ban medically necessary abortions for women facing late-term health risks." In addition he "Voted for Bush's ban on funds for international family planning agencies. Voted to ban family planning in federal employees' insurance."

Deans stand on Gay Rights: "Dean not only signed the first bill in the United States recognizing civil unions for same-sex couples, but did it six months before his gubernatorial election when it was opposed by two-thirds of Vermont's population. According to the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Dean differs from top-ranked Kucinich and Braun only on the issue of gay marriage, and is unique among top-tier Democrats in supporting federally-enforced equal rights legislation and GLBT-supportive education policies (Kerry and Gephardt only support state-based civil union legislation and both voted for "an amendment to the Improving America's Schools Act prohibiting federal funds 'for instructional materials, instruction, counseling, or other services on school grounds, from being used for the promotion of homosexuality as a positive lifestyle alternative'".

If you'd like to start a thread for a comparison of the two candidates, I'd be glad to partake...

[DemBones DemBones]

89. Everyone should know by now that

Kucinich voted against abortion for many years, as part of an holistic pro-life commitment. He quit voting on abortion bills about two years ago because he no longer was sure he wanted to limit women's choices. It was a long journey for him to move from anti-abortion to being ready to state that from now on he would be supporting the woman's right to make the choice.

(Your quote about Kucinich's high rating from "the gay-bashing Family Research Council" doesn't tell me much but I'd guess that DK got a high rating from FRC on the basis of his votes against abortion. There's a false assumption by many that opposing abortion = conservative on all social issues.)

Thoughtful people understand that there are valid arguments on both sides of the abortion issue, as there are on most, if not all, issues.

[gully]

92. Thoughtful people understand that there are valid arguments on both sides

of every issue. And 'thoughtful' people should also understand that if one calls their candidate 'the only true progressive' said candidate should have a history voting progressive on the issues or expect to be called on it.

I personally understand/respect Dennis's 'evolution' but as I said, the record is fair game if one makes such bold statements. Also, I find the constant 'Dennis is the only one' BS quite tiresome.

If people discuss each candidate issue by issue one will find that Dennis has strengths that others in the running do not. I maintain however, that other candidates have strenghts that Dennis does not. I have chosen a candidate that I feel would best run our Country based on the qualities I find important. Does that make me less liberal/progressive then you, NO.

It is up to each individual to determine which strengths they find most important in a candidate and support said person.

But once again to call Dennis Kucinich the only true progressive is opening doors that are best left shut for DK and his supporters. And, believe me if he gains in the polls, you haven't seen nothin' yet.

http://www.vote-smart.org

I'm off to zzzzzzzz, have a great night.

[gully]

74. By the way, I dont' think it's progressive not to balance the budget...

I dont' want my child paying back the debt. I think fiscal responsibility is 'progressive' in this case.

[JasonBerry]

37. Let's talk about Wellstone

He only said at a speech in Ohio, "He's one of my heroes in the House." Wellstone was the ONLY senate member of the Kucinich-led Progressive Caucus.

[gully]

40. Good to know...and Dean won the "Wellstone" award.

I'd love to see a copy of the speech if you have it. Thanks! I have heard this before. And, I trust Paul's judgement. Tough to know who he'd support for president?

[DemBones DemBones]

77. I never heard of the Wellstone Award before so how about telling

us about it? What are the criteria for the award? Who decides the winner?
Was it established since Wellstone's death? When did Dean win it? What does the winner get, besides the honor -- is it a cash prize or what?

[gully]

81. Its an award from the AFLCIO...see below

"AFL-CIO to Grant Inaugural Wellstone Award to Gov. Howard Dean (VT) and State Sen. John Burton (CA) For Exceptional Support of Workers' Freedom to Form Unions"

http://www.aflcio.org/mediacenter/prsptm/pr01082003.cfm

[clar]

39. This is a yucky post

I'm so weary of people posting links like this. And I don't give a toss whether it's about Clark (war criminal), Kerry (waffler) or Dean (stealth right winger). It's just bullshit to pretend you're not attacking a candidate when that's your sole reason for posting. It's transparent. Most of us can see through it.

I read this blog. It's intrinsicaly dishonest and leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

[gully]

41. Hmmm....

I've read much here that has left a bad taste in my mouth, but please don't accuse me of attacking anyone. If I want to 'attack' you'll know it. I'm not one to beat around the Bush, frankly...:P

[Doomsayer13]

44. what a nasty little blog

I'm not even a Kucinich supporter and that blog offended and angered me.

[gully]

47. it is nasty. And, so are many of the things we see here...

would you rather not have seen it? I think the more information we have the better. In addition, it's good for people to 'cement' their postions, as only adversity can bring.

Also were so used to seeing these things said about Howard Dean and John Kerry, but Kucinich seems off limits, why is that?

Again, I am not out to trash ... I do think he is progressive on some a great many issues, and not so much on others. I think Dean is progressive on some issues and not on others. I think Kerry is progressive on some issues on not on others.

But, I don't think its fair to say Dennis is the 'only true progressive'...

He's a human being with some very admirable positions, and I think he's better represented in an honest fashion.

So once again, I wanted to provide food for thought. That's all folks.

If you think I'd hesitate a minute to vote for DK against Bush your sadly mistaken...

[diamondsoul]

55. Hmm. I think you raise a valid line of thought.

Not exactly accurate, but valid because many people hold it. It isn't that Kucinich is "off-limits". The truth of the matter is that the only way his detractors can dish up dirt on him is to twist facts and outright lie about him.

Unfortunately, his supporters are fighting an uphill battle because there just isn't enough info out there to counter it in a visible, meaningful manner. It's up to us who support him to do that. The truth is out there, but people often stop at whatever fits their own perception without bothering to look past that. THIS is the Kucinich road-block, not anything he himself has said or done.

[gully]

60. Absolutely, and this happens to all the candidates...

Dean/Kerry/Clark... It's pure politics as I've said before. The formal name is spin...

And, for some reason Dennis Kucinich seems to have been insulated from 'it' on DU ? I don't advocate trashing any of the Dems including Lieberman as one day I may be defending them. But I do like to know what the opposition is saying, personally.

Anyone here who supports Howard Dean knows that he is attacked from every direction. It's been good preparation for him provided he becomes our nominee.

I think we all believe the best about our choice for President, that's typical, right?

I do personally have issues with his Dennis Kucinich's past voting record. Thus you could say 'I' have issues with some of the things he has said/done.

I don't want to debate it here as that was not my intent. My intent is to stimulate discussion. As you can see that has happened ;)

I will be happy to engage in a future debate provided Dennis becomes a front runner at some point down the road.

More information on the 'record' here...

http://www.iowansforpeace.org/writing/kucinich.html

and here...

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=BC032003#Abortion

He didn't simply refuse to vote on choice, he voted against choice on many occasions.

And here...
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-carney110102.asp

I'm not sure why people think he 'abstained' when it seems clear that he actually voted against choice?

[diamondsoul]

109. I didn't say he abstained for his entire terms.

And your links don't disprove what I've said as far as I can find, except the article you linked claims his initial vote in favor of abortion rights came in May 2002 when the NRLC claims it began as early as March 2002. Which one is accurate?

Show me the votes between 2001 and 2002 that prove he never voted present rather than one side or the other between the beginning of 2001 and March 2002, then I might believe he pulled a switch for political gain. Since nobody has ever been able to do that, I'll stick with my instincts and all the evidence proving that Kucinich is an honest man.

[ott]

45. THIS is Dennis Kucinich

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=10913

Thanks Tinoire!

[Northwind]

46. Said it before, I will say it again

If by some miracle Kucinich were to get the nomination, here is what would happen:

Either in a Presidential debate, or on an attack TV ad or maybe just a garden-variety press conference, Kucinich would be waxing rhapsodic about the economy and how Bush has screwed it up. He would talk about how he would fix it.

Then would come the question:

"Didn't Cleveland go bankrupt (or default on its debts) when you were Mayor?"
And he'd have to answer "Yes."

Now at this point, he'd try to say it was not his fault (kind of like the way Bush and his supporters say the current economic crisis is not their fault), and although the bankruptcy was not exactly Kucinich's fault, and he probably did help the city in the long run, it will not matter one little bit. Remember, when Bush and his people say this economy is not their fault, we all scoff (and rightly so). And that is what the American people would do to Kucinich. Scoff.

That would be the end, Bush for four more years.

Bet on it.

[diamondsoul]

51. Nope, I don't believe that.

Because Kucinich never simply says "Yes" to that question without an explanation. He also is never silenced on things that important until he's said his peace.

Nope, nope, and nope. He's the best shot this country has at defeating shrub and his cronies. Why? Because Kucinich tells the truth, something people in this country crave these days. Because he's everything the thugs in charge are not. Because he actually knows what us little peon folks are dealing with and wants to fix it. He KNOWS WHO HAS THE REAL POWER IN THIS COUNTRY!

[Northwind]

59. Did you read what I wrote?

The explanations won't matter at all. He'll get the blame for it regardless. Running a candidate in a time of economic crisis with such a huge black mark on his record (undeserved or not, it won't matter) is political suicide.

And just incidentally, DK does not tell the truth. He panders and tells his audience what he thinks they want to hear. Ne is nothing more than a authoritarian leftist ideologue.

[diamondsoul]

64. Rebuttal-

"The explanations won't matter at all. He'll get the blame for it regardless. Running a candidate in a time of economic crisis with such a huge black mark on his record (undeserved or not, it won't matter) is political suicide."

I read it and I think you're wrong. We're talking about something that 1. was 30 years ago, or close to it, and 2. has been deemed by the residents as a good thing.

"And just incidentally, DK does not tell the truth. He panders and tells his audience what he thinks they want to hear. Ne is nothing more than a authoritarian leftist ideologue."

Show me your proof DK has lied about anything and I'll give your assertion some weight and thought. I rebut with the assertion that you're mistaken and haven't looked into the facts.

[AnAmerican]

96. Pandering?? Ideologue??

:eyes:

This one post tells me all I need to know about your preconceptions.

[diamondsoul]

48. Lots on there that simply isn't true.

The abortion vote record for instance. Neither side wants you to see how many times between 2001 and 2002 he voted present rather than for one side or the other as he reflected on his position and the social impact it has.

Also Kucinich did NOT EVER vote to Impeach Bill Clinton. He voted in favor of investigating the ARTICLES of Impeachment. On the Impeachment itself he voted against.

The meetup posts- well lots of people are dissatisfied with meetup overall. What the hell does that have to do with Kucinich personally or as a candidate?!

The "partial birth abortion" legislation he supposedly votes "present" on....and is it not possible that just ONE of our legislators admits he doesn't know enough to cast an informed vote for those he's been elected to represent? I commend him for that vonsidering just how ignorant I was on that topic until just a few short years ago!

Sorry but smear and BS like this just really make me angry.*sigh* How pathetic that anyone actually falls for this.

[gully]

56. Unfortunatley, that's the dirty game of politics ...

:shrug:

[gully]

61. He voted against choice, he didn't abstain?

If he did, there is much mis-information out there. Also, I don't respect a non stand on an issue, personally.

If you have some contrary information about his record on choice, I will happilly examine it.

Again, I can over look some things. And, this wouldn't even be interesting stuff if Dennis wasn't said to be "The only true progressive" ???

He and his supporters also attacks other candidates which makes him/them fair game does it not?

[diamondsoul]

67. Ok here's what I've been able to find-

somewhere between 2001 and March of 2002 at the latest, DK took some time where he voted "present" rather than choose a side on the abortion issue. Give me a day and I'll go back and look up the votes. I ask for the time because it's going to take that long to hunt them up and record my results.

Here's the thing, he voted "present" because he had a duty to VOTE first, for the people who elected him. At the same time he was looking at his own stand on the issue of abortion and not sure which side was just. For me, voting "present" is just a step above not voting at all. It shows an intent to live up to ones duty and a desire to be principled and just in ones actions. I respect both the willingness to examines ones own ideals, and the sense of duty that would lead a Rep. to vote "present" rather than to take a stand.

[FubarFly]

58. There is no such thing as a perfect politician.

It is a despicable and corrupt profession.

I'd still take DK over 99.99% of the other bums any day.

[gully]

62. Your right about that...

Even Paul Wellstone had votes he regretted.

[JasonBerry]

65. We agree on that ! N/T

~

[diamondsoul]

68. Precisely!

But, let me ask, have you ever found evidence DK has knowingly lied about anything in his entire career? I haven't, and I've been looking.

[gully]

70. Lie is a subjective word... I don't think Dean lied about anything...

and I've looked at all the arguements that say he did. I don't like the implications from Dennis and his supporters that Dean is a liar. If Dean is lying because he changed his mind...then Dennis is lying as well.

BTW, I would never call Dennis Kucinich or any of the Dems that are running 'liars' as I don't think they are. I think human beings are allowed to change positions. But if DK and his supporters are gonna dish on the other candidates, they damn well better learn to duck.

And what's N/T mean I'm dying to know...

[FubarFly]

73. n/t = no text n/t

[Mairead]

97. Dean lied about marijuana. I can state that with assurance

because he said there wasn't enough science even to support medical use, when the fact is that the disconnect between the science and the politics has been an international scandal for decades. There is enough science to bury Dean up to his neck, maybe higher. There was science during Nixon's time--he commissioned a study and then ignored the findings when they came back pro-legalisation. I gave Eloriel a reference to a book that includes about 600 citations of peer-reviewed science literature.

Dean's claim that there isn't enough science is either stupifying ignorance (and I give him too much credit for intelligence to believe that) or a flat-out lie.

[FubarFly]

72. I've never caught him telling a lie either.

It doesn't mean he's never told one.

One of DK's virtues does seem to be his refreshing honesty.

[gully]

75. That's what I like about Dean...I find him honest. And, I agree that DK

seems as such also.

[JackieO]

76. Dennis is the man!

I just watched a video of him speaking to a group of people in Hunter's Point. He's the only presidential candidate to ever even visit Hunter's Point. He's so real and so good... I'm working for him every day and I can't wait to vote for him!

[twilight]

78. Dennis Kucinich - the next President of the USA!

Take your flames and blow away ...
DK for President - the REAL deal! :D

:kick:

[gully]

82. He he, I love that enthusiasm~!

[gully]

85. Night guys...It's been a stimulating and healthy conversation...

Thanks for keeping things civil for the most part.

I love all my Dennis supportin' brothers and sisters, I really do!

~Peace Out!

:hi:

[DisgustedTX]

88. Kucinich isn't the military-industrial appeaser like Clark

Clark is good for the yahoo, gun-toting "kill 'em all" faction in the Democratic party.

In other words, the Arnold of the Democratic Presidential race.

[directinfection]

91. questionable

i find some of the stuff in there to be a little misleading. especially about the whole war issue, it says dennis "Opposed but failed to block resolution." then proclaims that dean "Only major candidate who opposed war."

what a joke. dean can talk about how much he opposed the war...but he never voted on the matter. after listening to kucinich speak out against the war...Id have to wonder what this person was smoking. what does "failed to block resolution" mean? the resolution passed..unless his vote counts for more than everyone else id have to wonder what this person is trying to say. Dean only major candidate who opposed war? NOT TRUE.

[gully]

93. I agree with you there... confusing and perhaps misleading?! N/T

[CWebster]

99. Good work, gully (and civil too)

Notice although many found the revelations offensive they could barely address any of the issues -other than he used to vote against choice but recently his position was "unsure".

[Mairead]

101. Who's 'many' and 'they'? Do you mean us?

Dennis both spoke and voted AGAINST the recent anti-'PBA' legislation. It's on the record.

He also voted FOR allowing abortion in military hospitals (according to RevCarol, whom I trust)

His last anti-Choice vote as recorded by Planned Parenthood was over 2 years ago.

[buddhamama]

106. the offensive issues

have been discussed time and time again.

the issues are what they are, the question is, does it matter what anyone says, are you going to read with an openmind or not? do your own work,think for yourself or listen to this blogger?

facts are subjective and it has everything to do with POV.

two people read the same 'fact' and come to two different conclusions or interpretations of the fact.

and no offense to gully, but this isn't the first 'subtle' attack on Kucinich that s/he has tried. the same issues get brought up but no ones mind is changed. and everything either begins or ends with 'But'.

i support Kucinich and believe in him.
but i am not going to argue again and again over him.
there are issues going on right now that need attention--
republicans are dangerous and they are in power. they get my full focus. i also abosultely refuse to get into flame wars over the DEM candidates. it is hard to argue against a POV, and it is quite easy to recognize the closed minds.

[gully]

107. she, thank you....and I don't recall 'attacking' anyone?

Have any of you 'attacked' Howard Dean? Or, had opinions of the other candidates? Perhaps we need to define 'attack'?

The site I posted is actually one of the least offensive sites about Dennis Kucinich. :shrug:

My daughter is awake now, so I have to go now *sigh* ...

I will check in later.

Bub bye! :hi:

[diamondsoul]

110. ROTFL

I'll give you this one, gully! There are some real beauties out there now that he's become a little more known. Some of them I really do have to laugh at because they're just so ridiculous, and at the smae time I have to admire the creativity these people have. I do worry that too many people take the nonsense seriously, though.

As I've said, many times people will stop researching facts once they find something that fits their preconception. I've made it a personal mission NOT to do that. I keep looking at what Dean has to say, and Kerry, hell even Liberman!

Who knows, maybe I'm just too hopeful, but then without hope why bother to try at anything, right?

[buddhamama]

112. Dean,no

like i said, i pretty much avoid the candidate threads.

and i'll say again, there are aspects of each of the candidates that i like and dislike.
if you can define attack perhaps you can also define bashing.

i apologize for that choice of words.
but, i have seen a number of posts by you questioning Kucinich and again and again, discussion of the same issues.

you and i have done this before. we've discussed his prpgressiveness his anti-choice record,etc,etc. others have discussed this as well.

i have heard or read the arguments for or against every single candidate.


we have our favored candidates but,
i have to decide for myself 'what' it all means.

[CWebster]

108. Was there a chance that Nader could win?

You could believe in and support Nader til the cows came home but he could only cut out a small part of the pie. So, if you fear dangerous Republicans in power so much, you are deluding yourself that Kucinich can rally the country. Dream on about the land of milk and honey when all embrace in brotherhood - the fascists will come knocking at the door instead while you drift into a fantasy about the revolution.

Change is incremental until the tide turns. Rome was not built in a day.

[buddhamama]

113. blah blah blah

and your point would be what, exactly?

Kiucinich is my candidate and i'll vote for him in the primaries.
if he doesn't win i'll vote for the DEM but my 'passion' for the candidate wont be there.

the condescension in your post is wasted on me.
i'm not changing my mind about Kucinich or withdrawing my support.

[Mairead]

100. I went to the site and ended up laughing

I think it's fairly clear that a lot of right-wingers are befouling themselves in fear of Dennis. If I were willing to fool away my time, it would be ludicrously easy to post a counter to each one of those half-truths, unfounded allegations, and corporatocratic puff pieces using cold historical record. But it would be pointless...if they cared about the truth, or were able to detect it in front of them, they'd have been too embarrassed to post most of that rubbish.

However, if one of us has the time to distill out each one of their charges, I suppose we could each take a few and, following Tinoire's excellent lead, create boilerplate refutations we can use when the same lies are published by someone other than stupid rightwing kids posting in a blog.

Gully, I don't know whether to say 'thanks' or snicker.

[gully]

103. Perhaps you could create a dennisdefense.org?

as Dean supporters did?

I do think the site raises some interesting and valid questions though? I also think it gave it back to Dennis Kucinich and supporters in much the same fashion as he/they dish it out. JMHO...

People question my 'motives'...who is Dennis Kucinich helping in the end, when he trashes his peers? Do you feel I should question your motives for questioning Howard Dean? No, all the candidates are fair game here. I think I've been rather polite, frankly :D :shrug:

I can honestly say though, that I am glad for the adversity the Dean campaign has experienced as it is my hope it will help him prepare for the oval office.

In addition, I wont spend much of my time debating about Dennis unless he moves up in the polls. The election is a looong way off, and anything could happen between now/then.

As I said previously, if you start to see more of this on DK it will only be because he is seen as a threat, right?

To thank me or snicker? hmmmmm. perhaps a bit of both is in order.

~Peace...

[Mairead]

114. "Interesting and valid questions" ? Nooooooo, I don't think so

But Gully, if you truly believe that, then in your place I'd avoid visiting white-supremecist sites and similar. Because the quality (if that's the word I want) of the content appears to be similar. So if you really find this dreck 'interesting and valid', then I'm sure you'd be putting yourself in serious ethical danger at those other sites.




Dennis doesn't need a special defence site. To channel Einstein for a moment: if Dennis really were a creep, one critic would be enough. But he's not, so we can silence the claque merely by pointing to his actual record. He's the only candidate who has ever put his whole livelihood on the line for the sake of The People. To those with the nous to recognise gold when they see it, that kind of courage trumps all the flash, tinsel, and cheap thrills in the world.

[gully]

116. White supremecist sites???

:eyes:

hmmmm. I think I'll let that one go :freak:

I don't understand what is so absurd about this site? I'm having trouble figuring that out, personally. It's venomous, it's mean, it's nasty...but, absurd? I don't see it. kucinich.org is absurd. Both sites are obviously 'slanted' in their view of Dennis Kucinich. But, I will say again that the site I referenced raises valid questions/concerns, some of which remain un-answered. (check the links)

If DK moves up in the polls, that site will be 'nothing' compared to what's in store for him.

I also felt some of the information on the site was a 'satiracle' response to http://www.bobharris.com/kucinichdean.html I'm sure you've seen this site, right? :nopity:

I will say when people speak about Dennis in terms of his record and what he hopes to accomplish that's one thing. But, the "he's the only liberal" stuff is only setting Dennis and his supporters up for some serious battles.

This is politics gang. It's not pretty is it?... :shrug:

[Mairead]

121. Yeah :-)

I mention them because they do the same kind of deceptive argument that we find on the anti-DK site: 'if a then b; if b then c; therefore since a then c'. If you think they have anything more substantial, I'd appreciate you calling it out in enough detail for me to find it. Because if it's there, I'm not seeing it.

And yes, I've seen Bob Harris's site--in my view they're as different as chalk and cheese. Harris makes plain, side-by-side comparisons.

I'm not sure where you've been finding the 'only liberal' claim. I suppose it might be from one of DK's folk in a moment of unthinking enthusiasm, but I'd bet money that another moment of sober reflection would also get Al Sharpton included and probably CMB. Perhaps even Kerry, if people choose to look at his long record rather than his recent turn to the Dark Side. If people were being positively giddy in their attempt to be inclusive, you might hear them claiming that only Lieberman isn't liberal, but I'd mark that one down under 'charity' rather than 'truth'.

Now, if what you're really hearing is that Dennis is the only traditional liberal, then you might have something, though I maintain that Rev Al has a good claim to space on that mountaintop too (it's a little hard to know for sure, since he's never held public office, but 99% of the vibes are right).

Politics? If that kind of site is the best anyone can do against Dennis -and I suspect that, indeed, it is- then I don't really see what we have to worry about. If people want to believe that Diana was killed because she was having Elvis's baby, or that Dennis personally set the Cuyuhoga on fire, then all anyone can do is patiently repeat that the dates don't work, and let people decide what to do about it. A splash of cold water is enough to sober most people up, and those who are too far gone...well, they're too far gone.

[gully]

124. I don't see the similarity between pointing to a mans voting record

and white supremecy?

Let me know how you come on your research, I'm really interested. Especially regarding this as I did not know about it.

"In 1971 Kucinich headed up a group called Democrats for Perk. Ralph Perk was a right wing Republican nut who got elected Mayor of Cleveland over a black progressive Democrat."

I would call his office and find out why, I'm sure they can help you here. I feel 1971 is a long time ago, but this is a valid consideration is it not? It would be for me if he gets the nomination.

I like the cold water analogy, I'm just not sure who needs a good 'splash' at this point?

I think it's great that you all are organizing. I have a great deal of respect for many who support Dennis Kucinich. And, we can only wait and see who it will be in election 2004...

[Mairead]

126. Air-pollution control? Senior-citizen perqs? Medical services? RW nut?

Doesn't sound much like a 'right-wing nut' to me.

April 29, 1999

Perk, 85, died April 21 at the Corinthian Skilled Nursing Center in Westlake. He'd been suffering from cancer for some time. Burial was at Holy Cross Cemetery.

"Ralph Perk leaves us at a time when the world could use the message of his life, which was to unite people across racial and ethnic lines" said U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-10, who took over for Perk as Cleveland's mayor. "For generations, he led us in celebrating the beautiful cultural mosaic that is our inheritance in Greater Cleveland."

...

Like White and Kucinich, Perk began his political career on Cleveland City Council. For five terms, Perk represented the old Ward 13 in the Broadway Avenue-East 55th Street area. During his time on council, he was best known for a successful fight for air pollution control and for gaining reduced bus fares for senior citizens.

Perk's next stop was the Cuyahoga County Auditor's office. In 1962, Perk was the first Republican elected to a countywide office in 30 years, the first Republican to hold the auditor's job in 50 years. Four years later, he was re-elected to the spot by a 94,000 vote margin, receiving more votes than all other candidates for the office combined. He topped the feat in 1970, earning 140,000 votes, more than any Republican in county history up to that time.

...

Perk tried twice for the Cleveland mayor's office before achieving success in 1971, becoming the city's 51st mayor. Perk earned the Republican nomination that year over the challenge of U.S. Sen. George Voinovich, at that time a state representative. Perk was the first Republican mayor of Cleveland in 30 years. Prior to that election, Perk helped launch a petition drive that resulted in non-partisan elections in Cleveland. He earned re-election to the mayor's office in '73 and '75.

...

But in addition to bringing emergency medical services to Cleveland, Perk also gets credit for creating the Regional Transit Authority, the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District and with beefing up Hopkins International Airport. Many, such as Kucinich, also believe he helped quiet racial tensions in the city, partly by working closely with former Council President George Forbes.

© 1999 Sun Newspapers

[gully]

130. Post it on your blog... apparently the RW nut thing is subjective...?

And, I'm certainly not gonna defend the blogspot as it is not my personal opinion/information.

Perhaps you could ask them what makes Ralph Perk a rightwing nut?

Good work by the way!

[gully]

134. Dean lied on medical marijuana *gasp*

oh wait, no he didn't

couldn't find your original link, but that lie word is a stretch indeed...

http://www.mpp.org/releases/nr062702.html

Dean has said he will stand by whatever decision the FDA finds conclusive. In other words he'll respect the decision of federal scientists on this one. I don't find that un-reasonable. In addition, on my list of what's important as a candidate legalizing marijuana is right up there with studying ufo's. We have much bigger fish to fry IMHO.

I find Deans position a reasonable one.

Also, I think taking this off topic and discussing Dean is not serving in everyones best interest?

If you want to start a comparison thread between the two candidates, again, please do.

If Dean is mentioned here again and again, perhaps I will?

[Mairead]

135. Yes, he did lie. He said the science wasn't there.

If he had really wanted science, he could have gone back to the study Nixon commanded 30 years ago. That looked at all the science and recommended outright re-legalisation.

Dean talking about the FDA is just another dodge, like Nixon's. If he weren't a drug warrior, he could point to more science than anyone can shake a stick at. About 600 citations in one literature survey alone.

As to what's important to you, 'legalising marijuana' is not just about being able to smoke a joint in the evening. Or maybe it is, to you. But to me it's not. To me it's about the 'War On Drugs' -- that murderous boondoggle that costs us tens of thousands of lives, unimaginable amounts of misery, the loss of our Constitutional rights, AND a HALF-TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

Those tens of thousands of lives seem quite important, to me. I know we have too many people in the world, but if I were going to start culling, I certainly wouldn't start with some inoffensive farmers or ghetto kids.

And having the money being spent for something besides fattening bureaucrats and killing or imprisoning the poor would be nice too, don't you think?

Not to mention our Constitutional rights.

[gully]

140. Again I say that's not a lie...It's a matter of 'opinion'.

In order for it to qualify as a lie 2 things would need to happen.

A. Dean would need to examine the evidence.

B. He would have to agree with the conclusion of said evidence.

C. And, In spite of those things, he would have to say, "there is no such evidence."

Howard Dean wants medical marijuana usage to be subjected to the same clinical trials that any other drug goes through. This is a seperate issue from decriminalization.

For the record I agree with you and Dennis Kucinich that drugs should be decriminalized, and so does Dr. Dean. However, I don't believe either candidate has come out and said 'as president I will decriminalize marijuana/drugs? Correct me if I'm wrong here? To hold an opinion is one thing, to do something about it, another.

Here is Deans position...

"Medicinal Marijuana: Dean's reputation as a hard-headed skeptic of medicinal marijuana belies his actual position, which is more nuanced (if a bit neurotic, presumably because of his experience as a doctor). Dean doesn't "believe the war on drugs is a criminal matter; it's a public health matter. I think to throw users in jail is silly." He recently told the Liberal Oasis that his "opposition to medical marijuana is based on science, not based on ideology. More specifically, I don't think we should single out a particular drug for approval through political means when we approve other drugs through scientific means. When I'm President, I will require the FDA to evaluate marijuana with a double blind study with the same kinds of scientific protocols that every other drug goes through. I'm certainly willing to abide by what the FDA says." After resisting a medicinal marijuana bill that had made its way through the Vermont legislature for the reasons stated above, Dean eventually did sign a bill in June 2002 that established a task force "to investigate and assess options for legal protections which will allow seriously ill Vermonters to use medical marijuana without facing criminal prosecution under Vermont law." The Marijuana Policy Project said the bill set "the wheels in motion for solid patient protection."

Also Dean has a strong record of helping children in his state. Which is one of the many reasons I support him personally.

"Child Abuse During Governor Dean’s tenure, Vermont was the first state to institute a statewide protocol for abuse investigations. In return, Vermont saw a 45% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children. This included a 64% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-3 and a 43% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-6.
Child Sexual Abuse 84% decline in sexual abuse victims ages 0-3 and 70% decline in sexual abuse victims ages 0-6."

As a former abused ghetto kid who's mom smoked pot until it landed her in the looney bin on several occasions, I have some strong opinions on much of the subject matter ...

I respect your right to support Dennis Kucinich. I think he is an admirable politician/man. I simply think he's a human being with flaws like any of us. And, I don't support him for President ... personally. I won't state here why as this is not what this thread is about.

The problem I have here is this...the respect I garner you, is not afforded me and my candidate. "Dean is a liar" has been said here. I have not called Dennis Kucinich a liar. I have not personally 'slammed/attacked' Dennis Kucinich.

Do you respect my thoughtful decision/right to support Howard Dean?

[Tinoire]

118. That is an EXCELLENT idea!

I've book-marked several refutations people have posted and we could use that as a start.

Mairead could you take the lead on this or organize it somehow? I'm a little too burned out right now to do it.

If you PM me, I'll even give you an idea that might help this get organized easily and quickly without distractions until we're done...

Peace

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

115. Wow, what total crap

I just read through the site, and now I'm pissed I spent the time to do so. What total garbage. Well, it's obvious why Kucinich is hated by the corporations and the Republicans - and plenty of pro-corporate DLC Democrats, so I guess it's to be expected.

Go Dennis!!!

[gully]

117. The site pointed to his anti-liberal aka right wing record...n/t

When DK supporters stop calling him the only true progressive, then this stuff is meaningless. Simple really.

[hippywife]

119. Sometimes it helps to know

just who his supporters are. An intensely interesting group to say the least. These folks are out there putting their beliefs in action, dedicating their lives in many cases to really work for progressive change in this country and the world:

Grace Lee Boggs: community and civil rights activist.
Grace Lee Boggs is an outspoken Asian-American human-rights activist and leader. In 1970, she helped found the Asian Political Alliance in Detroit and contributed to the development of the Asian American Movement. She was married to prominent African-American leader James Boggs. In 1974 they co-authored Revolution and Evolution in the Twentieth Century, a classic text in political analysis.
http://www.boggscenter.org/index.html

Blase and Theresa Bonpane: Blase Bonpane, named “the most underrated humanist of the decade” by the Los Angeles Weekly, has worked on the ground for peace in many countries where United States policy is in question. His book, Guerrillas of Peace is in its third printing and a compilation of his radio commentaries, Guerrillas of Peace on the Air, is forthcoming. As co-director with Theresa Bonpane of the Office of the Americas, the Bonpanes work tirelessly to abolish the war system and establish an international peace system.
http://www.redhen.org/guerrilla.htm

Blanche Wiesen Cook: History professor (professor of History and Women's Studies at John Jay College of Criminal Justice at City University in New York) and Eleanor Roosevelt biographer.


Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield: Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream founders and social activists. Ben is also founder of True Majority.
http://www3.babson.edu/Newsroom/Releases/BenCohenAcademy.cfm
http://www.iscvt.org/bbdgreenfield.htm

Ronnie Dugger: Founder, Alliance for Democracy
http://www.thealliancefordemocracy.org/html/eng/1248-AA.shtml

Barbara Ehrenreich: feminist activist/author and progressive journalist. Most famous for her book "Nickel and Dimed"
http://www.nickelanddimed.net/
http://www.well.com/user/srhodes/ehrenreich.html

Feminists for Kucinich: press release
http://www.commondreams.org/news2003/0708-03.htm

Marilyn French: feminist activist/author
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/mfrench.htm

Arun Ghandi, Ph.D: (President, M.K. Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence and Grandson of Mahatma Gandhi)
http://www.meaning.ca/conference/arun_gandhi.htm

Ronnie Gilbert and Pete Seeger: former members of The Weavers, contemporaries of Woody Guthrie, iconic folk singers and social activists.
http://www.progressive.org/0901/gilb1101.html

Angela Gilliam: teaches at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington. She has served as adviser to the Papua New Guinea Permanent Mission to the United Nations on New Caledonia.
http://lals.ucsc.edu/hemispheric_dialogues/events/dialogueRace.html

Granny D: citizen activist, nuff said! ;-)
http://www.grannyd.com/

Tom Hayden: Former CA state senator, author, political/environmental/anti-war/civil rights activist.
http://www.tomhayden.com/Biography.html

Randy Hayes: environmental activist and president of Rainforest Action Network
http://www.ran.org/about_ran/randy.html

Nicholas Johnson: he was formerly a Federal Communications Commission, and School Board Member, Iowa City Community School District. He teaches at the University of Iowa College of Law.
http://soli.inav.net/~njohnson/
Ynestra King: feminist author/activist

David Korten: writer, lecturer, citizen activist.
http://www.davidkorten.org/

Grace Paley: poet, author. During the 1960s she taught at Columbia and Syracuse Universities, then became a teacher at Sarah Lawrence College.
http://www.llcc.cc.il.us/womencen/womenslit/Paley.htm

Rosalind Petchesky: feminist author, social activist, professor of Political Science and Women's Studies Hunter College and the Graduate Center, CUNY
http://urban.hunter.cuny.edu/~rospet/

Marcus Raskin: Marcus Raskin co-founded the Institute for Policy Studies and was an advisor to the administration of President Kennedy. Noted for his prolific writings on defense and disarmament, he's been a trustee of Antioch College and remains on the editorial board of The Nation.
http://www.cpi.seas.gwu.edu/library/seminar_archive/94-95/dec94/raskin.php

John Robbins: founder, EarthSave: an educational, social, and activist network with a very big heart.
http://www.foodrevolution.org/

Digna Sanchez: Latina community activist in New York
President: Learning leaders: Volunteers helping students succeed. http://www.learningleaders.org/contact.html

Paul Schrade: former RFK aide injured in his assassination, 60's United Auto Worker union leader.
http://www.reuther.wayne.edu/collections/hefa_632.htm
http://www.geocities.com/ambassador_hotel/page17.html


Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D. : author/poet, psychiatrist, Jungian analyst in private practice, Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, University of California Medical Center, and an internationally known lecturer.
http://www.jeanshinodabolen.com/

Paul Alan Smith: Bay area musician and music teacher
http://www.musicandlight-unlimited.com/paultch.html

Meredith Tax: author, journalist, politcal activist, board member of Women's World.
http://www.wworld.org/about/board/meredith_tax.htm

Studs Terkel: tell it like it is journalist and author, fixture of Chicago radio and journalism for decades.
http://www.studsterkel.org/bio.php

Harvey Wasserman: Free Press Senior Editor and "Superpower of Peace" columnist Harvey Wasserman is also senior advisor to Greenpeace USA and the Nuclear Information & Resource Service. He is author or co-author of six books, including four on nuclear power and renewable energy, and two histories of the United States.
http://www.freepress.org/columns.php?strFunc=display&strAuthor=7

Marianne Williamson: author Marianne Williamson has lectured professionally since 1983. In 1989, she founded Project Angel Food, a meals-on-wheels program that serves homebound people with AIDS in the Los Angeles area. Today, Project Angel Food serves over 1,000 people daily.
http://www.marianne.com/MWbio.html

Congresswoman Lynn Woolsey
http://woolsey.house.gov/

Dr. Quentin Young: has served as Chairman of the American College of Physicians' Subcommittee on Human Rights and Medical Practice and has been a member of both the Humana-Michael Reese Medical Board and the American College of Physicians Health and Public Policy Committee. He is featured as an expert guest on WBEZ, Chicago public radio. Dr. Young has chosen to limit his medical practice in order to spend more time fighting the corporate takeover of medicine in America.
https://secure.server101.com/pnhp/freshair/young_bio.php

[gully]

125. That's an impressive list...Dean has some noteworthy supporters also.

I don't know them all off hand, but here are a few...

Molly Ivins

Ann Richards

Rob Reiner

Jim Hightower

Susan Sarandon

Jeanane Garafalo

Mike Farrell

David Crosby and Graham Nash. ect...

Many of the candidates do. Including Lieberman *gasp*

[buddhamama]

127. is this thread about Kucinich or Dean?

where did you learn that Molly had endorsed Dean?

[gully]

129. Well, I thought it was about Kucinich, but Dean came under attack here so?

I have attempted to defend him...

I saw Molly at a recent event and she stated she supported Howard Dean. She also wrote an article recently that said as much.

However, you raise a good point. I just thought ones supporters were relevant as it was put into the dialogue here.

[buddhamama]

131. funny...

because Molly just spoke here in Maine and her position was she hasn't decided on a candidate. She mentioned Clark, but basicly took the position of Anyone But Bush.

she also gave praise to Nader (she doesn't think he's going to run again though) and said that if the DEMs can't change the current climate of corruption,etc, that they shouldn't expect to get elected.

[gully]

132. She wrote this recently...?

http://www.progressive.org/aug03/ivin0803.html

Be warned, you may not like all that you read.

I don't have a transcript from the event I saw, and it wasn't a rah rah go Howard statement. It was an 'I've been most interested in Howard Dean." Molly is a thoughtful woman, and I don't see her pressing hard, she believes that it's up to us dontcha think?

[buddhamama]

136. she appreared here in Maine

two weeks ago at a fundraiser for the Maine ACLU.this Progressive article is pretty much what she said here in Maine when asked about the candidates.

so, as far as this endorsement goes, Molly said she's "leaning" towards Dean. like i said in my previous post, She hasn't,as far as i know, endorsed any candidate yet. so 'your' previous list of Dean endorsements should not include her.

the list of endorsements posted by hippiewife were "official" endorsements.

i am a long time reader/fan of Molly's and have the utmost respect for her. Her position on the candidates doesn't affect that in the least.

[gully]

138. Well when the question was posed here in Minneapolis, she said Dean...

Question: Molly, who are you supporting for president.

Answer: I like Howard Dean.

I think that speaks for itself. I'm sure she'll allow you to respectfully disagree however ;)

[buddhamama]

139. this is becoming

he said she said stuff.
that statement, if true, does speak for itself. but i will reiterate that she didn't give that response here just two weeks ago.

"I'm sure she'll allow you to respectfully disagree however ;)"

i haven't a clue what that is supposed to mean. i'm assuming it is an attempt at humor.

[gully]

141. attempt at humor?

HEY! You sayin I'm not funny?! x( ;)

Actually it was said in all seriousness. I think she would respect those of us who disagree. What I think is important here, and what I love about this place is...we all give a shit! That's a novelty in and of itself. WE want change. WE want progress. WE want a world that benefits our children.

I am far more frustrated with people who don't vote or educate themselves on the issues before they do, then those who disagree with me.

And regarding Molly, it's quite possible that lady changed her mind ey? Who knows...

[buddhamama]

145. we're in agreement

on citizens who don't vote. i don't disagree with Molly or you for supporting Dean. if that is who you like, go for it and more power to you.

agrrement here too "Actually it was said in all seriousness. I think she would respect those of us who disagree. What I think is important here, and what I love about this place is...we all give a shit! That's a novelty in and of itself. WE want change. WE want progress. WE want a world that benefits our children."


as i stated numerous times, i don't get involved in the candidate 'bashing'(whatever that means) threads. as a matter of fact i have made it a point to give props to any DEM candidate that has openly opposed Bush. shit, i have even said nice things about Lieberman(not for opposing Bush though,`cause that is a rare occurance indeed). and, i have stood up for Dean supporters here who have taken much grief for being 'vocal'.

and i would dare anyone to find a post of mine trying to discourage someone from voting for their prefered candidate in the primaries.

Molly, i'm going to guess, probably is 'leaning' Dean still as she stated in her article. i think you had it right before when you said she was leaving it up to us to decide-or something like that.

[gully]

148. Thanks, seems you and I agree on much...

Again, I fully respect your right to support Dennis Kucinich, and I'd happilly vote for him against the Shrub anyday!

I have also defended Lieberman *Note my avatar! And, most of all, I look forward to a new president in 2004!!!!

[hippywife]

137. Celeb endorsements

Celeb activists are great! I'm sure each candidate has celeb endorsements, as does Dennis:

Willie Nelson is giving three concerts (Cleveland, Madison, WI and Des Moines) to specifically benefit the campaign; Ani DiFranco is on board for the Cleveland benefit show. Bonnie Raitt has contributed. Ed Asner, Peter Coyote, James Cromwell, Hector Elizando, Mimi Kennedy, Elliot Gould, etc.

I didn't include them in the previous list because we were talking about what makes Dennis the progressive choice. If the people out there in the trenches of the progressive movement every single day support him, I would say that makes him the progressive choice as these are people actually putting their beliefs into motion and dedicating their lives to making the progressive vision a reality. These are the unsung heroes of the progressive movement whose only notice comes from the difference they have made in society by living it and working to change it for the better.

[gully]

143. "The" 'progressive' choice...

would imply that my choice is not progressive.

That is my only issue with Kucinich and his suppporters. This claim is one I personally can't let be. It's Bushspeak in reverse. It says nothing about the issues.

BTW, I personally consider the people I noted here quite 'progressive' and dare I add 'liberal'... ;)

[hippywife]

147. Didn't say that they weren't progressive or liberal...

simply said that the list of those people who support Kucinich are actually living the progressive vision every single day. Look at the projects they are involved in and the impacts they are making by doing them....every day. These are the people that I hold to be the true progressives. Unlike me, who is progressive in theory and belief and in voting preference, they are out there on the front lines making it happen.

[gully]

149. I think many of the Dems have such supporters...

But thanks for the list of Dennis supporters, as I said it's impressive in and of itself. :D

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

142. on economic issues, he's always been progressive

a lot more so than almost all of the others. The fact that he represented a conservative Catholic district and socially conservative, like a few of the others, is also well known, and so is the fact that his platform is just as socially liberal as everyone elses.

Democrats are all in agreement on our pro-choice, pro-LGBT, socially liberal platform - everyone. It's the economic progressives that the DLC hates, and Kucinich is the one.

[gully]

144. define progressive on 'economic issues' I think vermont being the only ...

state in the country not facing massive debt is progressive, personally.

[gully]

146. Dean/Kucinich on the economy...

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_economy

http://www.kucinich.net/issues/issue_economicjustice.htm

I'm not gonna make any statements here. But, I wanted to post their positions.

[gully]

128. What are my deep dark motives here... Read my opening post...

If I were insincere, I'd have said I supported Kucinich. Let me remind you what I said on opening... }(

"Don't want to stir the ol' pot to much gang, but as they say, know thy enemy. If DK gets the nom, his supporters need to be prepared for the worst. I think b/c he is not a front runner, there hasn't been as much vitriol towards him as there has towards Dean or others?

Disclaimer, this is food for thought, I am not responsible for the content of this blog mmmmkkk?

Thus I say...Prepare Dennis supporters, if DK does as well as you'd like, you'll need to."

Again, let me know what your research finds. A dennisdefense.org blog would be free I think and it may just be needed?

[gully]

133. My deep dark sinister ass is outta here for a while...

Gonna take my daughter to the local petting zoo...

~Peace...

I'll check back later.

[Revolutionary Mama]

152. Old Records

I find it interesting that old info is available for Dennis, but Dean has obviously attempted to cover up his past, including sealing his old political records. What does Dean have to hide from "The Noses" of the world?

The smear efforts on that website are painfully wimpy and easy to refute... Where do I begin?

[gully]

158. Begin where ever you'd like...

:D

I believe some of the DU-DK supporters are taking certain issues and doing some grassroots type stuff?

You may want to contact Tinore or some of the others here and find out what progress they've made ??

You said~"I find it interesting that old info is available for Dennis, but Dean has obviously attempted to cover up his past, including sealing his old political records. What does Dean have to hide from "The Noses" of the world?"

hmmm, cover up? I don't think it's that interesting really...

See here:

"Dean was allowed to close files under the doctrine of executive privilege. The Vermont Supreme Court in 1990 ruled that executive privilege allows a governor to keep confidential documents that reflect "advisory opinions, recommendations, and deliberations." In other words, the paper trail that shows how the governor came to a decision can, and usually is, kept secret."

And...

"With our limited experience with executive privilege records, there doesn't appear to be anything that is of embarrassment, if that is a criteria. My understanding in negotiating with several recent administrations now, is that it's a desire protect the decision making process, the free flow of ideas within an administration."

Also note;

"The files are stuffed with letters to constituents on subjects ranging from leghold traps to portable toilets at state rest areas. The files on hot-button issues - such as the civil unions debate or the sale of the Vermont Yankee nuclear plant - appear to document events that are already well known."

Pretty un-interesting stuff from what I can tell.

[durutti]

153. Kucinich is not perfect

None of the candidates are perfect. I still think Kucinich is the best one.

[gully]

159. Now that's a reasonable position...

:hi:

[gully]

160. Testing

time mark...shi$ I've been paging up and down trying to track new posts, and just found out you could mark them GRRRRRRR!!!

$#!@@~**