The monumental mess in Alabama, is tied to the Christian Identity movement

[Robin Hood]

The truth behind the monument in the Alabama courthouse is that it is tied into the White Christian identity movement. Which is another compassionate conservative term for The white power movement, or the KKK.

These people down there are not being discriminated against. They have the right to practice their religion. but it's not about that. It's about establishing America as strictly a Christian nation from which they can then enforce their hate filled, and violent world views.

We should educate our selves on these peoples actions, as this is the heart of the Republican party. And this is the truth behind that stupid piece of hate rock in Alabama. Don't let those soft spoken pasty bible holders fool you. They would shoot you rather than look at you. There is nothing innocent about what is going on down there.

it's a disgrace that rock has been allowed to sit there for as long as it has.

here are some links.

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=christian+identity%2C+white+pride%2C+nigger%2C+jews

I'm sure that you can find more.

[Clete]

1. Sigh, another White Supremist group parading around

as a Church. If anyone wants to dig, you may find that they are also responsible for a lot of crime in the town. Of course the pastors always say that so and so used to belong to their church but left some time ago. But this is how they fund their movement.

[Monocoque]

2. Can I let you in on a little secret? 10 Commandments......

are far from exclusively Christian. Being of the Old Testament, they are the core of many faiths. OK? So stop with the Christian bashing and tying good sincere people with bigots like the KKK. Comprende?

[Robin Hood]

3. What a crock of shit.

The ten commandments are irrelevant to the deceit that those bigots are pulling down there. The fact that they see this as a Christian nation is often the first words spoken on Christian identity hate sites. You charlatan are fooling no one.

Tell me this.. Why didn't the judge let an African American group put up a picture of Martin Luther King in the hallway?

[Monocoque]

9. So you accuse those who believe standing up

for the 10 Commandments are exclusively hate-filled bigots? I know plenty of good people who admire someone standing up for God. They are affiliated with no 'Christian Nation' movement, and have neer heard of 'Christian Identity Hate Sites' let alone monitor them. You are causing me to wonder who is really the 'hate-filled bigot' here.

[Robin Hood]

13. Puuuhhhleeeeaaazzzeeee!!!! Don't pull that turn around shit on me.

You can't bullshit a bullshiter. You are not standing up for the ten commandments! No one has taken your right to believe as you wish, so quit pretending that you are a victim, when in fact you are the victimizer. You/them are trying to impose your hate filled views onto the public under the guise of the ten commandments.

What in fact you are doing is prostituting the word of god to push a hate filled and whacked out small penile agenda. And you still haven't answered my question above.

[Monocoque]

18. Oh this is great.

So now I am a 'hate-filled victimizer' for sitting here in my den thinking defending 10 tried-and-true precepts for human living is a good and noble thing. Yes, I am a son of a bitch for wanting that. Thanks for shining the light on this dark side I never realized I had.

[Robin Hood]

22. Why are you defending the ten commandments in the first place?

No one is attacking the ten commandments. Perhaps you have been duped to believe by the new compassionate conservatives that Christianity is under attack, well it's not. Rather, Christianity is being used as a tool of these radical right wing groups. To pass themselves off as something they're not.

Do not be fooled by the hype, you are being manipulated, and perhaps you should find out more about these groups before you let them pull on your emotional heart strings. You don't have to defend the ten commandments, Christianity is not under attack. People that use this sort of lingo have replaced the word Christian with the word white in order to attract more converts.

Research more on the history of the Christian identity movement. Then you will see through their lies and propaganda. This is not about religion.

[Monocoque]

26. As I have explained......

....I have no idea who these groups are that your refer to. I don't go into 'Christian sites'. But what you are doing is lumping all of us who applaud the action of keeping part of our country's founding heritage in public view with folks whom you claim have evil and deception on their mind. (I have yet to see how endorsing a time-tested prescription for fulfilling living, aka 'Christianity' is somehow twisted and evil, though). If you could, please explain why advocating a Christian existence is a bad thing.

[Robin Hood]

27. Once again,

No one is denying you your right to practice your religion. I have stated that over and over. You can hang the ten commandments anywhere you wish, except on public property. And all other religions have that same right as you, and you on't see them out there hanging the koran or whatever else on public property.

So what is really going on here, now that we have established that Christianity and the right to practice it is not the issue? If you are being sincere, than you my friend have been manipulated and understand little about our nations founding heritage.

You wrote,
"who applaud the action of keeping part of our country's founding heritage in public view"
All that is missing in that sentence is the word white between founding and heritage.

In fact whenever you hear the far right speak, replace the word Christian with the word white and see what you get. All that's been changed is the wording and you have fallen for it.

Again, please explain to me why Moore refused a request to put up a picture od Dr. Martin Luther king on the walls of the Alabama courthouse? After all, Dr. king is also a part of our nations heritage, is he not?

[Monocoque]

35. Your point is....pointless

You make quite a deal about use of the word 'white'. Well, gee. The founding fathers were white. So what? They had to be some color didn't they? You imply this makes them somehow 'bad'. I don't really get your replacement of 'Christian' with 'white'. This makes no sense. Those terms are not interchangeable. People of all races are and were Christian.

Point 2; Other artifacts aren't on display because they were not part of our country's early years or its founding heritage. That was easy.

And 3: Of all the thousands of deserving items to put on display, why would you put a portrait of Dr. King at the head of the class? His likeness doesn't compare with something so ancient and time-honored and venerable as the ten commandments. But even if you were just using people, any number of people were as influential as MLK. Why him? Coz he's black? Why not Bill Gates or Henry Ford or Albert Einstein?

[Robin Hood]

36. Take some history classes.

It is white racists who have co-opted Christianity. And ever since hitler they have had a hard time getting theitr message across. They have learned to replace words and omit words when it comes to winning converts to their insecure and hate filled agenda, Apparently you have fallen for it.

And here is a little history lesson on why King should have more prominence in a Mongomery Alabama courthouse than the ten commandments. But you probably already know this, and it eats at you.


"On the 1st of December 1955, Mrs. Rosa Parks, an African-American seamstress, was arrested in Montgomery, Alabama for not standing and letting a white bus rider take her seat.
It was an "established rule" in the American south (at that time) that African-American riders had to sit at the back of the bus. African-American riders were also expected to surrender their seat to a white bus rider if it was needed.

When asked to move to let a white bus rider be seated Mrs. Parks refused. She did not argue and she did not move. The police were called and Mrs. Parks was arrested

Mrs. Parks was not the first African-American to be arrested for this "crime." But she was the first to be arrested who was well know in the Montgomery African-American community. She was once the secretary to the president of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People).

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was pastor of the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery. He and other African-American community leaders felt a protest of some kind was needed. A meeting was called and an overflowing crowd came to the church to hear his words. Dr. King told the crowd that the only way they could fight back would be to boycott the bus company.

On the morning of Dec. 5, the African-American residents of the city refused to use the buses. Most walked, those few with cars arranged rides for friends and strangers, some even rode mules. Only a very small number of African-Americans rode the bus that day.

Dr. King and the other African-American community leaders held another meeting to organize future action. They named their organization the Montgomery Improvement Association and elected Dr. King as its president.

As the boycott continued the white community fought back with terrorism and harassment. The car-pool drivers were arrested for picking up hitchhikers. African-Americans waiting on street corners for a ride were arrested for loitering.

On January 30, 1956 Dr. King's home was bombed. His wife and their baby daughter escaped without injury. When Dr. King arrived home he found an angry mob waiting. Dr. King told the crowd to go home.


"We must learn to meet hate with love" he said.
The boycott continued for over a year. It eventually took the United States Supreme Court to end the boycott. On November 13, 1956 the Court declared that Alabama's state and local laws requiring segregation on buses were illegal. On December 20th federal injunctions were served on the city and bus company officials forcing them to follow the Supreme Court's ruling.

The following morning, December 21, 1956, Dr. King and Rev. Glen Smiley, a white minister, shared the front seat of a public bus. The boycott had lasted 381 days. The boycott was a success."

http://www.holidays.net/mlk/rosa.htm

Here are more links to educate yourself on. That is, if you can get past your obvious racist agenda.
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=Martin+Luther+King,+Montgomery+Alabama&spell=1

[Monocoque]

43. Yawn

Oh, are you through?..so again...I'd say Gates and Ford and Einstein were all more influential to the world than MLK.
But they chose something far bigger than a mere mortal...they chose to exhibit a prescription for the hand of God on how to live a great life. What human being's image could compare to that?

[Robin Hood]

49. Ford? Henry Ford?

That is a great example of a anti-semitic bigot. Ford was right up there with Hitler. And what do you know about Bill Gates and his spirituality, or Einstein for that matter? nothing, you know absolutely nothing. Yet, you continue to flap your gums.

And to say yawn to a brave and deadly stance that King took, proves to me that you are a racist mother fucker and that your religion is just another good ol boyz club.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robin Hood]

54. And hitler was faithfull to Ava Braun.

Therefore he is having morning coffee with god. How pathetic that you think that all you have to do is be faithful to your wife and enter the kingdom of heaven. I sure hope that it takes a lot more than that.

And the fact that you say MLK hosed women shows how little respect you actually have for women. Is that another Christian example of how to get into heaven? Is that what you do to your wife? You hose her?

It is also pathetic that the Christian right has to hold events like the promise keepers in order for them to hold their vows to their wives, and even that doesn't work. heck, in my neck of the woods, a promise keeper killed his whole family about a year ago. but hey, he didn't cheat on her, that we now of.

[Aidoneus]

100. Einstein was an (atheist/agnostic?) and Ford a fascist who hated the Jews

as for Gates, I don't know about his religious views but I'm sure there's SOMETHING in that "Secret Bible Code" stuff about the security holes in Windows ending all human existance in a catastrophic disaster.

MLK on the other hand was a Christian socialist. I don't see where you're going with this.

[knight_of_the_star]

111. You are strange

You say that businessmen who have had some impact but only for their own greed are greater than men and women who have altered the course of history? So Ford made an affordable car, so what. Someone would have come up with that idea sooner or later. Did he end segregation and ensure that several MILLION people would get their civil rights and dramatically alter the makeup of the US body politic and society? NO. So Bill Gates wrote windows. Did he, by any chance, lead a series of hunger strikes that freed a nation? NO.

[Maddy McCall]

45. You are SOOO ill informed and full of shit.

Who sent you here? Are you AFA? One of Tim Wildmon's cronies?

Getting your history from Rush and Xian radio? C'mon...you can't be that stupid.

[Monocoque]

47. LOLOL

AFA? Tim Wildmon? I hate to burst your bubble, but I have never heard of these people. I am just a married guy with five kids, a Catholic Democrat who is standing up and applauding a guy in my state who had the guts to stand up to the religion bashers. This man deserves a medal. And I have news for you. Tons of Democrats are Catholic like me and they don't like you godless folks giving our party a bad name and losing elections for us because of your extremism and anti-life, anti-religion hatred

[Robin Hood]

52. Ha, i have never heard such crap in my life.

Now, I know that you have come here as a wolf in sheeps clothing.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

60. probably - but maybe, just maybe...

You can't just brush off every irritated Southern straight Christian white male as a KKK woman-hating bigot. I agree about the link between Reconstructionist Christians and Christian Identity movements, they are closely related.

My reaction to this whole episode is probably similar to most people's on DU - I see it as another example of fundies trying to make their religion the official American one, Constitution be damned. I don't like it one bit.

But I can see how other people might see it differently - especially Christians, who rightly see a certain type of secularism as becoming the "official religion".

Maybe we just need to use a different kind of rhetoric to make sure that irritated Southern straight Christian white males vote Democratic? We certainly have to do it in a way that upholds our Constitution and the principles of religious freedom and separation of church and state.

[Robin Hood]

67. And my point is that fundies are the Christian identity movement.

There are millions of heavily religious people out there. Most are not fundies. Fundies have hijacked Christianity as a tool to give their bigoted message a much broader appeal. You see, even in your posts you point out the fact that Southern straight males identify with this rhetoric, when in fact they have been duped, or maybe not, by the white power movement.

All that I have done here is lift the veil off the lies that these Christian Identity people are spreading. Don't you see that this is not about religion, rather they are using religion to stir and create religious/race wars, and accomplish what they couldn't by marching with white hoods on.

If Joe and Jane six pack are truly interested in finding out the truth behind the right wing agenda, then pandering toward a softer rhetoric will be counter productive. If they know the truth and like it, than I don't think that we need those sort of friends in the Democratic party.

[Leanmc]

85. Question

From the google link you provided in your original post, there didn't seem to be any *direct* link between the 10 Commandements in Alabama and Christian Identity. In this post, you say that the fundies are the Christian Identity movement. It seems to me that you are painting fundamentalists with a broad brush.

I don't agree with the politics or religion of fundamentalists. Still, while people who practice Christian Identity or Reconstructionism might be fundamentalists, there are millions of fundamentalists who are not part of the Identity or Reconstruction movements. "Fundamentalism" isn't an organized body, it is a general philosophy (there are fundamentalists of many different religions).

It seems to me that you are making the same kind of mistake that the McCarthyites made during the HUAC days conflating liberals with communists. True, there are hate-filled White Power types out there, and true, those White Power types aren't disappointed by stuff like the 10 Commandments display. But that doesn't necessarily mean that this is something organized by cadres of White Power folks who have secretly gained power and are implementing an agenda.

Edit: A link further down refers to Judge Moore appearing on a radio program hosted by a Christian Identity preacher. I still think this doesn't prove much about fundamentalists in general, but definately proves something about Judge Moore (who specifically put up the 10 Commandments).

[Robin Hood]

86. Here you go.

"On April 8, 1997, Judge Moore participated in an interview on a shortwave program, "Scriptures for America," conducted by Pastor Peter J. Peters of the Church of Christ of Laporte, Colorado. Pastor Peters' Christian identity church apparently believes that Jews are offspring of Satan and that minorities are subhuman."


http://www.ajcongress.org/pages/RELS1997/APR97REL/apr_011.htm


My google search above was meant to provide education on the truth behind right wing politics.

The above link shows the direct relation behind the ten commandment facade in Alabama and the Christian identity movement. And who could forget Trent Lott and his "This would be a different country if Strom Thurmond had been president" statement?

[juajen]

99. Well said liberal Guerilla

I honestly don't think many Southern White Straight Christians vote democratic. I do think they like to play with our minds though. I'm going to go on to another thread, for I can see where this is going. I will not give them any of my time.

[donco6]

74. Medal?

He deserves to be stripped of his office and thrown in jail. He's an idiot.

[Robin Hood]

76. Absolutely,

I consider this act to be a hate crime.

[knight_of_the_star]

113. He probably will be

Defying a court order can get a man disbarred, due to that he will probably lose his seat, and the court mind then arrest him for contempt or something like that.

[iverglas]

102. here's one I'll bet he's heard of

The Catholic Defence/Defense League. (Catholic Anti-Defamation League, Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, whatever.)

This whole attempt to misrepresent the issue, in this case, is what the CDL are old hands at.

Essentially, the game is to pretend that any objection to attempted interference in public policy by Roman Catholic officials or individuals is, rather, "Catholic-bashing".

It also portrays political, and artistic, expression, about issues and ideas, as "anti-Catholicism" ... wrapping itself up in the cloak of a vulnerability that the RC church and its adherents simply do not have (any more than do any other Christians in our context), portraying itself as a persecuted minority in need of protection from what is essentially discourse about issues and ideas, a good thing, and in no way amounts to (or is even, as they allege, intended to foster) discrimination against persons, a bad thing.

It also likes to misrepresent efforts to implement inclusionary practices for the benefit of vulnerable minorities (like the GLBT community) as being discriminatory against RCers. Go figure. It's just always all about them, one way or another. How "Christian" of them, eh?

Here's one little example of its handiwork in that realm, from a very quick search (I believe this case is not an isolated one, but rather part of an organized strategy); it concerns a school board's "Out for Equity" program.
http://www.mtn.org/~newscncl/complaints/hearings/det_109.html

In examining the book they found, according to Kassekert, that "there is no allowance in this program for the Catholic student to avoid the homosexual message which ignores the teaching of the Catholic church on homosexuality." The League, charging that the program was not a support group for students but an advocacy program, expressed its concerns in a letter to school Superintendent Curman Gaines. ...

"We wish to make clear - one more time - we do not object to counseling and support groups in schools. We object to a program such as 'Out for Equity,' which works to indoctrinate all faculty and students that the genital activity associated with homosexuality is acceptable and normal.... The Catholic teaching insists that homosexual persons must have the same respect and dignity accorded to all human beings. It is only the genital sexual activity which is considered wrong and sinful."

Teach something in a school that the RC church disagrees with, and you are persecuting RCers. Like I said: go figure. But of course, RCers are obviously not the only ones playing this game. The gambit that monococque has engaged in here is just the same.

Liberal Guerrilla, you have been doing an excellent job of maintaining the distinction between the merits of whatever position someone is advocating and the constitutionality of a public official representing/imposing that position as public policy. As you have said: obey the ten commandments all you want, proselytize for the ten commandments all you want, but do not illegally exploit your position of authority to elevate your personal ten commandments over anyone else's religious or ethical touchstones by attempting to invest them with that authority.

What is bizarrely ironic is that any individual or organization that purports to see inclusionary practices by public authorities as persecution or discrimination against themselves -- because those practices are contrary to their own chosen exclusionary positions (as all sorts of fundies, not just RCers, purport to do) -- would also purport to see exclusionary practices such as the erection of this ten commandment statue thing as proper, and objections to its exclusionary and rights-violating nature as improper.

What the hell happened to that loving thy neighbour as thyself stuff?


Mark 12:28-34

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

31 The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.

33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

33 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.


Romans 13:8-10

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


1 Corinthians 13:8

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.



Now, I'm no Christian, but back when I taught Sunday school all those years ago, that was the bit that we were busy focusing on. Of course, that was also the church that is now demanding that the Canadian government act to eliminate inequality in our marriage laws, the church that was on the streets protesting against the invasion of Iraq -- the church that actually seems to take that Christian commandment about loving their neighbours rather seriously.

Damned if I can see what the Alabama judge's antics have to do that one.

.

[knight_of_the_star]

112. EXCUSE ME???

You are calling us godless religion bashers? You MUST be ill-informed. As I've stated before, I don't care what you worship, so long as you keep it too yourself and don't push it on me, got it??? Go back to the whole you climbed out of.

[mitchum]

84. It's my understanding that the ten commandments were tribal laws...

for the Hebrews. I don't see where they have any relevance for Christians or we "heathens"

[knight_of_the_star]

110. You aren't refuting Liberal Guerilla's point

Why are you even trying when you aren't countering what is being thrown at you?

[SuffragetteSal]

30. look you have your agenda

and it is to get those 10 commandants in every public place. This is what YOUR and your kind's agenda is...soon after the 10 commandants are placed there, you will point out that Shall not murder is one of them and try to take away the right of women's choice. You know what your agenda is and I know what you agenda is, so don't try to bullshit me with your double talk. It will be a cold day in hell sir before you ask me to give up the right of my body for YOUR right to practice your discriminating religion.

[Robin Hood]

32. Right on, right on.

Power to the suffragette. Tell it sister.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robin Hood]

50. Godless jackals?

That's right, only you have a hold on what the definition of spirituality is. You are one ignorant stooge. And have proven my original post right, over and over again.

[JanMichael]

107. "Godless jackals?" Damn! Sorry I missed that post.

Who the hell talks like that anyway?!

I keep hearing people say we need to be a big party tent but damned if I'll be in a party dominated by religious fanatics, who use language like that. That's just one of the MANY reasons that I've not a Repuke.

Before any of our nicer DU Christians pipe in and call me an anti-Theist bigot let me say that I just married an Episcopalian "minister to be" so fuck off.

[sendero]

66. no....

... you are just having a lot or difficulty recognizing the idiot.

[donco6]

75. This guy isn't worth wasting your time on.

After all, the Bible does say not to cast your pearls before swine!

[Robin Hood]

80. And that is one of my favorite bible quotes, but.

Addressing this liars rhetoric helps others see through the lies and deceit that the Christian identity movement have hidden behind. It is not so much about him as it is about educating others on what shit shaped as candy looks like.

[knight_of_the_star]

57. What is your skull made out of?

Not ONE post in response to ANYTHING you have said is based on bashing your right to believe what you do or that what you believe is a crock. What IS being attacked is that you are defending what will lead to the creation of a theocracy, and if you want a few RELEVANT examples of theocracies, go look at Afghanistan under the Taliban, Iran under the Mullahs, and Medieval Europe when the Catholic Church had so much power that they could have KINGS dethroned with but a word.

[BiggJawn]

62. Uh..."Founding Heritage"????

Do you mean that lie that we hear all the time that goes "The United States was founded as a CHRISTIAN Nation!"?

Please do some research on the "Treaty of Tripoli". You will see, in black and white, that the United States was NOT founded as a "Christian Nation".

I was going to write more, but I think, from what I've read so far, that would be akin to "pig singing lessons" so I'll save the wear on my keyboard. I'm not going to convince you of anything. But then, neither will you convince me of anything.

you have an intersting screen name, BTW. Get your strength from your skin, not your frame, eh?

[Robin Hood]

73. Now replace Christian with the word white and you get the truth

This country was founded as a white nation. And that is the truth behind the right wing agenda. It's the KKK duping masses of Christians. They have masked religious and racist intolerance with Christianity.

[donco6]

71. Tried and true?

What does that mean exactly? Do you mean that societies that follow the ten commandments are somehow blessed by god? This is typical fundamentalist thinking - in fact, it's right in line with the Christian Identity movement! So, I'd say the SOB title fits fine.

[9215]

63. How about freedom FROM religion?

It is long overdue. We need to establish religious free zones in the US where people can sit and relax and not be hounded by a bunch of zipperhead loonies.

Religion is, fundamentally, oppressive to those who don't join the pod.

[donco6]

14. So, why exactly does God need anyone to . . .

. . . "stand up for him?"

Isn't he supposedly all-powerful, etc.? What's he need people for?

And if you'd read the link, you'd know the basis for the argument. I suggest you at least glance it over.

[starroute]

33. The usual phrase is "standing up for the little guy"

Perhaps the poster worships a very small god who is in danger from playground bullies (or perhaps from more powerful gods) and needs someone to stand up for him.

It seems like an odd sort of religion to me -- but there's no accounting for tastes.

[donco6]

68. Yes.

That must be it.

[aquart]

37. Which ten commandments are we dealing with here?

On account of there are at least two sets. I'm figuring this is the No Graven Images and No Other Gods Before Me one. Because the one that takes out No Graven Images is the Catholic version.

So what, exactly, do we have here?

All those Christians worshipping an engraved image of the ten commandments tablets that says Thou Shalt Worship No Graven Images.

That's godliness for you. That's true devotion to the Word.

Go bow down some more now, you hear?.

[klyon]

104. great shot

You nailed 'em
Will they give up TV, family movies and pictures and of course the money that is worship above all else: when they see this monument to their faith.

Does anyone know which version this is? Does it have no dancing? I heard one Christian group is against music and dance could this be true.

May you be well, live well, work well; have courage, patience, and compassion.
KL

[Blue_Chill]

15. What a crock of shit is right

Calling a statue of the 10 commandments a hate rock is a crock of shit.

Christian Identity is a group I despise. But be careful with your words "friend" some of us don't take to kindly to broad attacks.

[Robin Hood]

16. I call it as I see it.

And that boulder of the ten commandments is nothing but a wolf in sheeps clothing. Put there by hate filled bigots. I stand by what i said, it is a hate rock, because the people who made it, made it with hate in their hearts.

[Blue_Chill]

17. You see that is much better

Now that you clarified yourself I have no problem with your statement.

That thing needs to go. And I'm glad that fool is suspended. I hope they aren't just waiting for the media coverage to die down so they can let him stay. He should be fired.

[northofdenali]

4. Tying anything "Christian" to Roy Moore is like

tying anything "Christian" to George Bush.

Neither of them are Christians. They are neocon fundies using religion as a literal opiate of the masses.

With your attitude, I'll wish you an early goodbye.

[Robin Hood]

7. NorthofDenali, I sure like your name.

Sometimes I wish I were there.

[Monocoque]

11. With my attitude?

So if I think a guy stood on principle, you are saying I have no right to be here on DU?

[Cassandra]

19. What principle are you defending, exactly?

the right to shove the ten commandments down everyone's throat? Defying the Constitution?

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robin Hood]

31. I can't wait until the church of Satan demands that a pentagram be placed

on government property. Or the Wiccans, how about the muslims. I just can't wait for the inevitable religious/race wars that this will inevitably bring on.

[aquart]

38. There IS a pentagon on government property.

Which is obviously why you have confused it with the pentagram used to worship Satan.

[Robin Hood]

39. eh, typo.

thnx.

[knight_of_the_star]

115. Excuse me

Wrong religion. They use an inverted Pentagram with a goat's head inside it. The normal, upright pentragram is used by Wiccans (like me).

[knight_of_the_star]

114. Oh yeah

I can only imagine what kind of a hissy fit that nutcase along with the rest of the GOP would have if a Wiccan judge were to put a plaque with the Rede on a wall in his courthouse.

[Cassandra]

58. When entering that courthouse...

only the blind and the blindfolded have the freedom not to look at the monument.
Tell me, will religion go away if the monument is moved? If you're not confronted every second with proof of God, will he just go away. What are you so afraid of? What about the other commandments (there are 613)? Why just ten?
Also, how could you be in your 40's and not have heard of the Christian Identity Movement? Have you been living in a cave all these years?

[The Icon Painter]

65. Word Choice

I do wish you would stop calling people "sweets", "honey", and such. It is overly familiar and disrespectful. It seems that every time someone takes your pitiful little bait and tries to open your padlocked mind, you start in with the demeaning titles.

[oldcoot]

79. The problem is a little more serious than that

Everyone appearing before the court has the right to expect that he or she will be treated fairly. They also have the right to be judged according to the laws of the land and not according to any religious world view. Attorneys and defendants appearing before this "judge" have a right to expect that he will not discriminate against them even if they do not share his religious views. Unfortunately, Moore's behavior indicates that he might not be an unbiased judge. He is willing to ignore other courts and the Constitution when it suits him and that is a dangerous trait in a judge.

One solution would be to allow members of other religions to place their own monuments in the courthouse. This would give Moore and his supporters a taste of their own medicine.

[Robin Hood]

81. And that is why all of his cases need to be re-examined.

Whom has he sent down the river because they were black or jewish? I think that this brings up serious questions that are currently not being addressed.

[ewagner]

96. Finally

Right on point: :toast:

[klyon]

105. I agree this is more serious

The judge has a problem bigger than being religious fundamentalist: he stepped before the microphone and violated his oath of office. By simply stepping up and speaking in that manor, no matter what side he took, he made it personal, he crossed the line. His job is to up hold the constitution, his religious convictions should be not enter in to his work. He must stand for the rule of law as stated in our body of law and the constitution. The just fell on his own cross.

May you be well, live well, work well; have courage, patience, and compassion.
KL

[Robin Hood]

20. What principle is he standing on?

[Rocinante]

24. Why

didn't the judge allow a picture of Martin Luther King? It's a simple question really.

[Monocoque]

29. You could have pictures of a thousand

notable people in there. Why should he single out one?

[Robin Hood]

34. Ehhhhhh!! Wrong answer..

Now you have shown that you are either stupid or just as evil and deceiving as I have labeled you to be. You have proven my point. Thanks for playing.

BTW, he also singled out other religions that made requests to display their beliefs as well. Again, thanks for proving my point.

[Monocoque]

41. I guess Liberal

Gorilla wins all the debates in his little world. All you have to do if you get an answer that you can't counter is call the other person 'stupid' and 'evil' and claim they have proven your point. (Of course, no one else can identify how on earth this might be demonstrated). OK LG, you are now dismissed to your padded cell.
Next?

[Robin Hood]

42. You make absolutely no sense

Why haven't you taken the time to debate my points? I assume that it's because you can't. I am right, so prove me wrong. Instead of this bullshit little defense that you have come up with here.

The fact that the poster above chose to overlook the contributions of Dr.King towards civil rights and especially Montgomery Alabama, says to me a lot. in a post above he also stated that why should Dr. King be placed in the court house? Just because he's black? Again, that to me says a lot.

i regard Dr. king to be right up there with Christ. He was a man that was persecuted and killed for his political beliefs, Just like Christ.

[Monocoque]

46. Nah.

Jesus didn't have affairs and MLK didn't ascend into Heaven. But nice try.

[Robin Hood]

48. Prove to me that Jesus didn't have affairs.

After all, he loved Mary Magdalene, a prostitue. And now you are taking the stance of god and saying that he is not in heaven. Why isn't he in heaven? Is it because he was a black man and black men dont have souls? THat is what some of your Christian identity sites preach don't they? Black people are soul less mud people. That is what I have read on one of those vile places. And here you are echoing it.

Again, thanks for proving my point that this whole bowel movement that you call religious freedom is nothing but racism in disguise.

[Monocoque]

53. Why the vitriole, brother?

Are you a brother who feels the world is conspired against him every step of the way? There has to be some explanation for such unadulterated hatred and vile towards every decent institution we enjoy.

[Robin Hood]

55. I'm just a mirror

That's reflecting your soul back at you.

[donco6]

72. Not if it's a non-democratic principle.

Which this isn't. Take your fundie "principles" back to freeperville.

[oneighty]

5. The KKK

is a great cross loving white Christian group.

They even burn one now and then to draw attention to their hate.

180

[Robin Hood]

6. Cross burning doesn't pack the punch it used to.

Now their putting engraved stones in public places and calling it religious right.

[maggrwaggr]

8. Why is Lieberman smirking at me in your post?

don't we have enough smirks right now in the white house?

[Cassandra]

10. Why don't you go knock on the door ...

of the Christian Identity movement and insist that they stop using the word Christian because that is an insult to sincere Christians. See where that gets you. You're complaining in the wrong direction. Comprende?

[donco6]

12. Yeah!

They do a good enough job themselves, OK?

Sincerity don't mean Jack, bub.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

23. Sorry, I mixed you up with another religious right intolerant person

I thought I was addressing a different fundamentalist jihadist from another thread. I was confused. Therefore, I've deleted the original text of this thread. My apologies for the mixup.

[TahitiNut]

82. Forty insane posts later ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=130821

Why izzit I can 'lert on obvious fascist reichbots on their 4th or 5th insane post and it takes 12-16 hours and a mess like the one above? Why do decent DUers bother with a clearly deranged person? Many of these folks are clearly incapable of being assisted in any online environment; they require skilled therapy, I believe. (No, I'm not really kidding. The signs of psychopathy seem obvious.)



{sigh} So many tombstones; so little progress on a cure. It's a plague year.

[Robin Hood]

83. I thought that it was good that they came here and proved the post right.

it showed that what I originally posted on is fact and not a knee jerk reaction. i am thankful to the mods for not having removed his replies. It showed the level of deceit behind this so called Christian movement.

[SuffragetteSal]

21. Who appointed this judge anyway?

and how did he last so long? It makes me wonder what his court must be like....and what kind of decisions his history depicts.

He seems to be 'pushing his own agenda' which does feel like separating people, which is NOT a Christian value.

[Robin Hood]

25. Excellent point Sal.

We do need to find out what sort of case decisions this man has made. Also, what are the statistics for how many african americans he has sent to the slammer as opposed to white.

[aquart]

40. Doesn't have a whole lot to do with American justice, either.

[varun]

61. I read somewhere

that he starts his court proceedings with some verses from the Bible.

I would be very uncomfortable with that... it is intimidating to a non believer like me that a judge (who is supposed to be fair and balanced) might be biased in a certain way.

[Robin Hood]

78. All the cases that Moore presided over need to be re-examined.

All the people that he judged over need to be re-tried under a fair and non biased court. This should be the next issue in the mess in Alabama.

[donco6]

88. Whoa! Didn't think of that.

But it's obvious the guy is biased. I wonder how those of other faiths have fared in his court?

[Robin Hood]

93. Not just of other faiths

But of other races as well. He has already been found to associate himself with the Christian identity movement, And I believe that one is still judged by the company that they keep.

[Rex]

56. Not to get off topic here

but this thread has me wondering - do people still have to "swear in" in court before they take the stand, over the christian bible?

[Cassandra]

59. Although they mostly do

it's not a requirement. You can swear without the Bible. Personally, I would prefer the Old Testament only. Refusing to swear on the Bible wouldn't help your case in most states, though, judging from the reaction of this case.

[Sentath]

64. Which just goes to demonstrate their hypocracy

Matthew 5:33-37

33 "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

[HawkerHurricane]

94. All oaths allow you to affirm vice swear

At least at the Federal level.
"I (state your name) do solomnly swear (or affirm) (yadayadayada, varies with what you are placing your oath to)(so help me God, which is also optional)

[Sentath]

118. Quite correct. However

What Cassandra was arguing is that taking that step and not placing one's hand on their sacred writings would likely be recieved as 'unchristian' behavior and hurt one's chances in that court.

[Mari333]

69. More on Moore and the "christian" Identity Nuts

http://www.ajcongress.org/pages/RELS1997/APR97REL/apr_011.htm

[Robin Hood]

77. Excellent link Mary. Check out this quote, it proves this post right.

"On April 8, 1997, Judge Moore participated in an interview on a shortwave program, "Scriptures for America," conducted by Pastor Peter J. Peters of the Church of Christ of Laporte, Colorado. Pastor Peters' Christian identity church apparently believes that Jews are offspring of Satan and that minorities are subhuman."

[arwalden]

117. Now That's Some Scary SHIT. n/t

[Solly Mack]

70. Oh, why am I not surprised?

:shrug:

[disgruntella]

87. These three groups are NOT synonymous!

a) Christians (a very broad term, obviously)
b) Christian Fundamentalists
c) Christian Identity

Christian Identity, while completely loathsome and virulently racist, is NOT a part of mainstream fundamentalism, although it is definitely "fundamentalist" in the way it relies on the text of the Bible. Christian Identity believers do not agree with "mainstream" fundamentalists in many ways.

I am basing these statement on a book I just finished: Religion and the Racist right, which is about Christian Identity as a doctrine and a political movement. Here is a link to the book info at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0807846384/qid=1061667835/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-6220892-1305648?v=glance&s=books

I have nothing to say about whether this is related to Moore's "movement" or not, and I am not a Christian. But even as a "non-believer", the attitude toward Christianity in this thread is getting offensive.

YES, it is crucial to identify right-wing racist & anti-semitic hate groups (religious and otherwise) and to stay informed about what they are up to. But to paint all of Christianity black because of a vocal and politically active sect is not right.

[Robin Hood]

89. Before you feign offense.

please read the post two above yours.

[disgruntella]

90. I've read the whole thread. Thanks for checking!

Believe me - I am much more offended by Christian Identity rhetoric than I am at any of your posts. I live in Montana, so I've seen their flyers, and I've driven through some scary parts of Idaho. I detest Christian Identity. I believe I made that point in my previous post.

I also do not support Moore's actions in Alabama, and I think the 10 Commandments monument should be removed. If Christian Identity believers are supporting him, it doesn't surprise me, and I think it is good that you pointed out that there is a connection between the Moore and Christian Identity.

All *I* was trying to do was to offer a link to a book with more information about what Christian Identity is, for those people who might be interested in learning about it, rather than conflating it with all of right-wing Christian fundamentalism and with Christianity in general. You seem to have some kind of stake in doing the latter.

(edit - grammar)

[Robin Hood]

91. i only have a stake in pointing out the truth.

And that truth is that the right wing has stolen Christianity for their purpose of furthering the Christian Identity movement. I said that there are plenty of religious people out there that are not racists. But I believe that a mojority of people that have associated them sleves with the Christian right have been duped to believe that it is for the cause of their religion, when in fact it has not. It is strictly for the purpose of dismantling civil rights and undoing the outcome of the civil war, which by the way still rages on.

[disgruntella]

92. well, we're on the same side

We're both against the agendas of the Christian right and Christian Identity.

Since I just finished that book this morning, perhaps I'm being a bit nitpicky by pointing out that "Christian Identity" and "the Christian right" are not one and the same entity; they overlap. I believe it's part of "knowing one's enemy" to make this distinction.

[Leanmc]

97. I think you're reaching

Justice Moore obviously has a documented link with Christian Identity, but you haven't demonstrated that right-wing in general is actively, purposefully furthering Christian Identity via their co-optation of Christianty.

Really, this strikes me as the 1950s w/ christian identity standing in for communism and right-wing/left-wing reversed. I mean, I'm sure that there were some folks in the 1950s who supported Civil Rights because they thought that it would undermine the USA, but that in no way implicated the entire civil rights movement.

I'm not trying to minimize the danger posed by Christian Identity or other racist movements, but honestly I think that you are going a bit to far when you paint a picture of Christian Identity calling the shots for the entire Christian right. It seems to me that they are on the fringes at best.

[Robin Hood]

98. On the fringes at best?

You are not paying attention. Trent Lott is not on the fringes, George Bush is not on the fringes, Pat Robertson is not on the fringes. And pretty damn near all of the current Republican politicians are not on the fringes.

Yet they all double speak to their followers in code. Let's recall George Bush saying States rights when it came to flying the confederate flag. States rights is the term synonymous with the south during the civil war. Or Trent Lott at Strom Thurmonds B-Day party. Do you call these right wing representatives on the fringes?

If there are people that consider themselves right wing and are not for segregation and anti civil rights, then they have bought into the Christian identity lies. Lies like, compassionate conservative and leave no child behind.

Do I really need to go on and on with example after example? My fingers are tiring.

[Leanmc]

101. Yes, that's what I said

Pat Robertson, George Bush, and Trent Lott are clearly not at the center of the Christian Identity movement. If you think they are, you need to post some evidence to back that up. At best, those folks are at the fringes of the Christian Identity movement.

If you think that they speak to their Christian Identity "followers" in code, fine. That sort of logic was used by the Birchers to paint Truman as a Communist. Just because someone invokes "state's rights" doesn't make them part of any particular movement, Howard Dean invokes state's rights for crying out loud.

I completely agree with you that many prominant GOPers use inflammatory, irresponsible language. I disagree with you on whether this sort of rhetorical excess is proof of a secret compact between the GOP and Christian Identity.

To me, its bad enough that prominant folks in the GOP can't smell the shit of Christian Identity a mile away . . . but that hardly is proof that Christian Identity is in the driver's seat.

[Robin Hood]

103. Ralph Reed and Falwell both dictate to the president on policy.

I'm not sure what more proof you need?

[Leanmc]

108. How about proof that Reed or Fallwell are

. . . part of the Christian Identity movement? Seriously, it seems to me that you are blurring all kinds of lines, in the same manner that the McCarthyites did when they conflated liberals, democrats, and communists. *Everyone* is aware that much of Bush's support comes from the Christian right. You haven't provided any evidence that the Christian right is controlled by Christian Identity movement, however.

I must admit, it certainly *is* interesting how a far-right GOP judge could feel comfortable appearing on a Christian Identity radio program, much like it is interesting that folks like Lott and Ashcroft felt comfortable being interviewed by neo-confederate periodicals. But if Nancy Pelosi gave an interview with a hypothetical radical anti-human enviromental group's publication (like in 12 Monkeys), it wouldn't be proof that the Democratic Party was controlled by the environmental movement which in turn was secretly dominated by the Army of the 12 Monkeys.

Honestly, I agree with you that the agenda of the Christian Right is pretty much what the Christian Identity/Reconstructionist folks would like to see happen . . . but Christian Identity wants to go *much* further than the mainstream Christian right. Theocrats of all stripes are dangerous to the traditional freedoms of the USA. I personally think that the mainstream theocratic agenda is dangerous enough without bringing in fringe groups who advocate racial holy war or the imposition of the Bible as the law of the land.

[disgruntella]

109. exactly

Thanks Leanmc.

LibG - we're not arguing that the Christian Right and Christian Identity aren't a serious problem and threat. I think we'd all agree there is a significant overlap between what the two groups want. And we'd all agree that both are dangerous to the kind of American society we want to live in.

We're challenging the way you're representing the issue. You're not offering any proof of Christian Identity being a *dominant* force in politics aside from Moore being on their radio show (which for me would be reason enough to be booted out of any public office).

[Robin Hood]

116. You are willing to sit there and tell me that the right wing

does not have a racist agenda? I think that their economic(Trickle down) warfare and everyone of the Republican policies are steeped in their foundations from raqcism and classism.

In fact, I believe that the right to life crowd feels the way they do because minorities are quickly over populating whites. It's not about life, it is about becoming a minority and losing political clout. They want white women to quit having abortions. That is the predominant race that is having abortions.

There is a war going on here that is spear headed by the Christian Identity movement. Of course they're not going to come out and say that this is their reasoning for their beliefs. They know that they will be run out of town if they do. It's all on the sly.

But all you have to do is look at the Republican rhetoric and policies and see that they are in racist.

Furthermore, you wrote.

"I must admit, it certainly *is* interesting how a far-right GOP judge could feel comfortable appearing on a Christian Identity radio program, much like it is interesting that folks like Lott and Ashcroft felt comfortable being interviewed by neo-confederate periodicals. But if Nancy Pelosi gave an interview with a hypothetical radical anti-human enviromental group's publication (like in 12 Monkeys), it wouldn't be proof that the Democratic Party was controlled by the environmental movement which in turn was secretly dominated by the Army of the 12 Monkeys."

For one thing, Most of that parapgraph was fantastically hypothetical, talk about reaching. And there is a huge difference between meeting with an environmental movement and meeting with a race hate group. But, I can guarantee you that if Pelosi met with ELF it would make for a 24/7 scandal and she would be forced to resign. Yet the right wing can rub elbows with the most vile and wretched human beings and little to no attention is give to it.

The other day I saw interviews at the Alabama courthouse with a representative of the phony bible thumpers there at the courthouse, and they had the gall to compare themselves to Rosa Parks, and the SOB had a smirk on his face when he compared their agenda to the plight of the civil rights movement. That's how cruel, deceiving and victimizing these SOB's are.

No one is taking their freedom away, Their not asked to sit in the back of the bus. Yet they tied in their perceived injustice of the civil rights movement as a rallying cry for like minded thinkers to come down there and shut the place down.

[robbedvoter]

95. Dearly departed Monocoque sounded like that other M...something

who told the 9.11 mothers to get over it. Both incarnations seem to end offensive statements with: "comprende?" (which speaks tons about the poster's pathetic make-up)

[Judi Lynn]

106. Absolutely delighted to read some background on this cretin

Thanks so much for starting the thread, and getting some background available. It's a lot better than remaining in the dark.

We knew he's an ass, already. It's good to know what kind!