Do Conservatives Honestly HATE Us? Should I Bother To HATE Them Back?

[arwalden]

Where does all this hate come from? I get the feeling that if they had the power to do so, most of them would be perfectly contented to snap their fingers and disappear-us from the face of the earth.

Do they "hate us for our freedoms"? Or do they just plain HATE us because we're not like they are?

I can't help but wonder where this puritanical cancer comes from and I fear that there may be no cure.

They appear to be so CONSUMED AND BLINDED by their own INSANE HATRED that NO compromise or truce that would make them happy (other than the complete destruction and elimination of everything that's not fundamentalist enough or conservative enough for their zealot and myopic beliefs.)

-- Allen

"Mommy... Fundamentalists scare me."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. This is an interesting question

I believe they DO hate us but I also believe their strategy is much more WAR LIKE than ours. Don't know if the strategy is born of hate or if HATE is a by product of a war like strategy.

All I know is that if one goes to WAR without a strategy for DEFEATING the opponent then the best one can hope for is survival and survival isn't WINNING in war.

[arwalden]

5. Your Comparison To War...

... is interesting, BECAUSE...

I typed then edited OUT an entire two paragraphs that tried to describe (predict?) my fears of a coming religious-war that's guaranteed to weaken this country.

Not a real guns-and-bullets civil war... not an in-the-streets riotous race-war (as many opponents to civil rights would have us expect) but a war nonetheless.

Their hatred of us is so vicious and vitriolic and venomous. Any philosophy than can breed and encourage and is acceptance of the likes of Ann Coulter is something to be feared.

Be very afraid.

-- Allen

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. Here is a thread I had on DU one about their strategy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=17043&forum=DCForumID60&archive=

[roughsatori]

6. Excellent point

You write what I could not quite formulate, The neo-cons began with the war like strategy and the hatred grew out of that. In some cases the hatred displayed is more shtick then it is emotion. They understand that the hatred shtick plays in "Peoria."

I do think that the lower income individuals who follow them do so out of the anger they have over their lives being co-opted by the neo-con strategists.

The Shrub lie is Reaganesque: You can all have a bigger piece of the American Pie if you are willing to leave the poor, elderly, and disabled behind. (The similarities to the Nazis are clear.)

[shockandawed]

2. Simple people hate foreign things

They percieve them as a threat to be discredited and destroyed. Liberals accept that new ideas may have benefit and seek to explore them, sometimes to a fault.

Hating stupid, xenophobic or simple people is not helpful. Hate destroys you. You should seek to manipulate them to vote for the benefit of us all. Gross, but what is the alternative? Reprogramming people to be open to criticism of their belief system.

Use the sheep like the Repugs do. They will thank us later.

[ibegurpard]

3. I don't know about "hating" them back...

...but the live and let live attitude that liberals and leftists have displayed towards radical right-wingers (note that I didn't say conservatives...these people aren't conservatives), which was born out of the ideal of tolerance of ideas, has allowed them to get where they are. We can't tolerate them anymore. We have to retaliate DISPROPORTIONATELY with any weapons at our disposal.

[arwalden]

7. Exactly... Our Live And Let Live Approach Has Allowed Them...

... to quietly spread the seeds of their hatred. It's allowed them to grow stronger.

I'm just amazed that people with THAT MUCH HATE AND RESENTMENT can exist.

What miserable and unhappy and petty little lives they must lead.

-- Allen

[jafap]

18. Hey - I resemble that remark

Speaking as a person who leads a miserable and unhappy and petty little life I can tell you that it is fairly easy to whip up some hatred and anger. I think I am taking too much caffeine as well. Your statement at the end shows much more contempt than it does sympathy, and I think that is a cause as well. How many of us get up day after day, hoping to have a good day, only to be showered on by dozens of senseless acts of inconsideration and disrespect. The chain of anger is part of a huge game of "pass it on". As Tracy Ullman said in a skit - the world is "cold, it's cruel, it's dirty, and it's full of people who hate you and are mean to you just because you are different."
The news, or salesmen (like Harold Hill, who "can deal with the trouble, folks with a wave of my hand") bring a constant stream of bad news - crime, fires, accidents, divorces, child abuse, drug abuse, etc. It is very easy to believe the simple Republican answers to these things - no work ethic, corrupt government and too many taxes, and permissive attitudes. It is very easy to hate the lying liberal politicians and the drug-using, strange dressing, promiscuous, and confrontational freaks who support them. They believe people like Hannity and Coulter when they say that liberal policies are the source of our troubles, and before them it was Friedman and Rand - saving us from the road to socialism.
It is just as easy to find extreme hatred - of Bush, of SCOTUS, of the military, of capitalism, of ordinary murkans - on the left. So perhaps they feel they are returning the hatred.

[maggrwaggr]

11. yes, they declared war on us and we sat and took it

And now I see signs that we're actually fighting back.

IT'S ABOUT FUCKING TIME. Like Bill Paxton said in "Aliens" -- "I don't know if you've been paying attention, but we just got our asses kicked!"

These people only respect power, so we have to fight them back, only harder, and put them in their miserable place.

Empathy gets you nowhere with these assholes. We're now seeing the fruits of our understanding and sympathy -- the fascists take over and laugh in our face.

THEY HATE US MORE THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE

[Ladyhawk]

71. What do you do when your family is full of them?

I've been doing a lot of crying lately because I finally realized that my family is not worthy of respect or trust. I really don't want to hate them. Hate is futile. They are what they are and I don't think it is possible for them to change.

They hate lib'ruhls. They hate gays. They hate Muslims. They hate Democrats. They hate poor people.

They hate me?

All my life I heard the message of hatred and was told to equate it with morality. I defected from the ranks of the superstitious, then from the ranks of the right-wing. Why should I believe they still love me when all I was ever fed was hatred?

Yes, you should be afraid of the religious right. I've seen the inside. They'll believe whatever their leaders tell them to believe because they've been taught to switch off their brains.

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding."

To them, this means reason is a tool of the devil, so there is no reasoning with them. I don't know why I escaped the brainwashing. Living among these people...it's beyond frustrating. I feel like an alien in the town where I was born.

[movonne]

4. I hate them for what they are doing to this country....

[Cocoa]

8. for some, hating us is their job

Limbaugh, Coulter, etc.

[arwalden]

9. There Will Always Be Confirmed And Devout "Haters"...

... but what I find most troubling is the climate that allows professional HATERS such as Limbaugh and Coulter to exist.

Not only does the climate of HATRED allow them to exist... these folks actually worship and revere and encourage HATERS like Coulter and Limbaugh and O'Reilly.

-- Allen

[Cocoa]

14. it's the raw material of fascism

I personally think it's something in human nature.

What I find completely irresponsible, playing with fire really, is that these people aren't totally constantly denounced, and that they are given such a prominent forum.

Joe Conason asked Tweety to challenge Coulter to a debate with him, and Tweety said, no I'm not interested in doing a debate like that. No, because Coulter gets to spew her crap without any kind of real rebuttal.

[shugah]

68. sad but awful truth

we're living in a truly f**ked up time. kinda makes one wish for those "interesting times," ay?

to answer your original post--yes, it does seem they hate us so much that they wish us dead, or at least removed. ("us" in the previous being anyone who does not think as they do.) and no, i don't hate them as much--in fact, i don't hate them at all!

so, are you really asking if being liberal guarantees forced subjugation to hate? oh bloody hell! how do you do what you cannot do?

[maggrwaggr]

12. and those are the worst kind of people

those like Rush and Cannity and Coulter who have realized theres' money to be made spreading hatred.

You think Coulter actually believes her own bullshit? She can barely keep a straight face.

[maggrwaggr]

13. I can't advocate HATE, but if someone is trying to destroy you

you have to fight back.

And these people are trying to destroy us. And they've done a pretty good job! "Liberal" is now a four-letter word.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[votein04]

17. Maybe you are...dunno

It's a pretty straightforward question. It was a run-on sentence, but I read it again and the meaning is pretty clear.
It wasn't directed at you anyway, so no sweat.

[Touchdown]

21. Could I answer as well?

I'm gay, so I've been confronted with this attitude before, and the belief can only be justified by a willful dismissal of other factors of reality.

First off, their beliefs are being held in a nation that has no basis in Christian of biblical foundations, so the question of legislative advocacy should be thrown out the window. However, they are told and also believe that the US is built on Christian principals, which is not in the Bible, since it was written 2000 years before 1776. Contradictory there, isn't it? In order to justify their biblical belief that we should have no citizenship, it has to be hinged on the non-biblical belief that our nation was founded on biblical beliefs. I won't even go into the fact that the concept of an exlusive homosexual wasn't really explored until the mid 19th century, well after the Bible was finished as well.

Also, on the question of biblical condemnation of homosexuality, there is no consensus among the larger Christian communities as to what these 5 passages really mean, much less how to reconcile that fact that Galatians absolved everyone from the Levitical codes...except for 19:20. So, harking back to what Reagan said about abortion...Until there is a consensus on what God actually wants here, then we should treat the question with the largest benefit of the doubt, or Leave gays alone until we know better.

Simply, there are 2 reasons why they believe this. First is that they don't have enough information about homosexuality to make any kind of sound judgement on the subject matter. And second, it's awfully strange that when some who claim to know what God says, God always seems to agree with them. IOW: they had these prejudices before, and found something in the Bible which justified their continued beliefs.

edited for typos

[votein04]

34. Sure. Only....

I read and found what you had to say interesting. I don't disagree with much of it.

However the question was:
If a person thinks their god condemns homosexuality, that it's devient and wrong and homosexuals should get no mention in legislation lest they feel encouraged and in fact all homosexuals should attempt to change through god.....are they hating homosexuals?

I'm not asking you to counter the mindset of such a person..only if you think they are as full of hate as the thread author thinks they are.

On one point though.......you can never argue nor should you waste your time arguing if the nation was founded on a Christian base. That will fall on deaf ears. Better I think to just argue that it's irrelevant to our world today.

[arwalden]

22. In response to your "run-on" question... My answer is "YES!"

Odd... my original post was asking how/why conservative zealots hated LIBERALS. I hadn't intended it to become a debate on homosexuality.

I'm not sure where you were going with that... but why should the fact that their god condemns homos give them a blank check and free pass and carte-blanche to pursue, hunt, harass, and even kill? Stop making excuses for them! It's that very apologist attitude that has empowered and emboldened them to do the very things that they are doing now. It must stop!

> I think your description is a little grandoise <sic>.

Nice. Whatever.

> You say they have a "cancer" and need a "cure".
> You want to kill them...or at least kill what they are....
> their opinions and how they think.

OMG! Did you actually READ what I wrote? You're putting words into my mouth. Those aren't my words and I don't know how or why you interpreted what I actually typed in that manner.

Other than to point out how far off-base you are on that ridiculous interpretation, I'll waste no time trying to defend something I didn't say. Nor will I try to re-explain or re-word something that any reasonable person could easily understand.

I'm a bit baffled, however how WANTING TO BE LEFT THE FUCK ALONE could be interpreted by their side (and apparently you) as being hateful?

I'm confused how it is that MY PERSONAL LIFE AND HAPPINESS creates such a hardship on theirs?

> Appreciate your answer in advance, thanks.

You would? That's nice. I would have to be a mind reader to answer you in advance. I think I'll just do it the old fashioned way and answer you AFTER I read your post.

-- Allen

[votein04]

35. You need to back up and take a good look at it. I'm not your enemy.

Odd... my original post was asking how/why conservative zealots hated LIBERALS. I hadn't intended it to become a debate on homosexuality.

Your original post referred to them hating "us", but you are ultimately the one identifying what you think is hate.

You spoke so vehemently about how much hate you're seeing that I assumed it might be partly attributable to your homosexuality.
There's a lot of anti-gay discussion and sentiment on the right wing forums. It gets me angry, and I'm straight.

I truely believe most of the Christian right are not hateful, they just accept what they think their religion tells them to think about homosexuals. And they're ignorant about homosexuality. The way thate comes accross in discussion might feel like hate to a homosexual. The things they say are hurtful, for sure.

why should the fact that their god condemns homos give them a blank check and free pass and carte-blanche to pursue, hunt, harass, and even kill? Stop making excuses for them!

They don't have a blank check for any of that, and I never went near such a suggestion. All of that occurs, I know. Let's be honest here though...the majority of republicans/Christian right do not pursue, hunt, harass, and even kill homosexuals.

I AM NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR ANYONE. Do not put motives into my
words please.
I'm only trying to get as close to reality as I can.

I said: You say they have a "cancer" and need a "cure".
You want to kill them...or at least kill what they are....
their opinions and how they think
OMG! Did you actually READ what I wrote? You're putting words into my mouth. Those aren't my words and I don't know how or why you interpreted what I actually typed in that manner.

I read every word carefully. I took your analogy to cancer and came up with the connotations we usually associate with cancer. You used the word "cure". How do you cure cancer? You destroy it. Kill it.
Don't take me too literally here..I'm not saying you're advocating the killing of repukes.

I'm a bit baffled, however how WANTING TO BE LEFT THE FUCK ALONE could be interpreted by their side (and apparently you) as being hateful?

I don't interpret you as hateful. Please re-read my post.

Your generalizing all repukes as being full of blind hate. My main point is that maybe it feels like hate, but it in reality it's just ignorance and stupidity. Further my point is that you've got a lot of hate happening on your side. Reread your own original post, and pay close attention to what you've capitalized.

My short answer to your original subject question would be two more questions:
Do you want to?
Aren't you already?

take care.

[arwalden]

44. Sorry... I'm Not Buying It

You're free to defend them all you want. You're free to misinterpret and misrepresent and "misunderstand" my words and their meaning. Whatever.

Yeah, right... that's a good one! First you say "a lot of hate happening on my side"... and then you say you "don't interpret me as hateful". So which is it? --- In one paragraph you say one thing, in the following paragraph you contradict yourself and say something entirely opposite.

You're talking in circles and I'm feeling as confused as Glenda was when she first met Dorothy.

It's hard to know whether you're coming or going. I can't really take posts as confused as yours was all that seriously. (We would make a lot more progress if you could tell the difference between what you characterize as my "hate" but what is actually my ANGER. Get it? I'm angry.)

Fundamentalists hate. Puritanical zealots hate. Coulter hates. --- Yet when I get ANGRY as a response, you have the NERVE to belittle me and accuse me of "hating them too"? You, sir, have a lot of nerve.

"I read every word carefully." Oh really? I did make an effort in the body of my original post to specify my concerns about puritanical and fundamentalist conservatives. But, if you want to pretend that I was talking about "all" Christians and "all" republicans... well... there's nothing I can do to stop you from thinking that way. Knock yourself out, pal.

Uh... HELLO? Have you been paying attention? Did you even read what you wrote? Yes you were making excuses for them. The message and intent behind your rhetorical question was clear.

Clearly you expect me to accept their venom and hate because they have an "excuse" that their god commanded them to hate. This is the same nonsense that fundamentalists and puritanical zealots used to justify everything from the crusades to slavery. You're not the first and you won't be the last.

So... after hundreds of words you finally decide to get around to addressing the questions asked in the subject line of my original post. ---

But... answering questions with questions?... how quaint. Nevertheless, I think it's pretty clear what you're trying to say. You're asking "aren't I hating already"? --- Oh Bra-vo! Back to that old accusation again, are we?

Wasn't that clever of you? I'm impressed. --- I know everyone who's reading this thread is impressed. You just impress me so much.

Give it a rest!

-- Allen

P.S. You "assumed" did you? See what happens when you assume? FYI: I'm more than a one-issue Democrat.

[votein04]

51. Fine.

I'm not defending anyone.

And I assumed correctly since you already affirmed that, didn't you?

And yes, I said you have some hate happening on your side. Sorry, that's what I got from your original post. I don't believe you're hateful though. There's a very real difference. Like you said, you're ANGRY.

I asked an honest question earlier:
If a person thinks their god condemns homosexuality, that it's devient and wrong and homosexuals should get no mention in legislation lest they feel encouraged and in fact all homosexuals should attempt to change through god.....are they hating homosexuals?
You said YES! Fine.
This question is NOT an attempt to defend repukes. It's an attempt to open up the discussion a little bit, add some perspective. I'll know not to try that with you in future.

You said in your first response to me that you hadn't intended this to become a debate about homosexuality. It hadn't though...my post was touching upon the amount of hate you say you feel from the right for the most part. You advertise the fact that you're gay, and I asked if that might be part of the reason you feel so much hate.
I can't see anything insulting or provocative in my response to you. Immediately you became upset and sarcastic towards me. My advice is lighten up and quit looking for enemies.

Our exchange has degenerated. I've tried to be completely honest and straight-up and respectful with you and you've become overly defensive and accusatory, so I'll wish you well and talk to ya later.

regards.

[arwalden]

56. Your question was MORE than an attempt to "open up"...

... the discussion. You know it and I know it.

Over the years I've seen and read just about every way there is to defend puritanical idiots. (I've definitely got a reputation as being a bit of a joker in the Lounge... but please don't underestimate me. I'm not as dumb or naive or gullible as many people think I am.)

Exactly what kind of "perspective" were you trying to add with that question? Were you trying to play devil's advocate so that perhaps I'd be a little more understanding of how these fundamentalist bigots developed their feelings? Was it so that I could gain "perspective" and maybe cut-them-some-slack because (after all) it really wasn't THEY who were doing all the hating... but their GOD?

Dear me! How could I be so unreasonable?

You know what I think happened? I'm afraid you're just a little peeved at me because I was one step ahead of you and I saw EXACTLY where you were headed with that fully-loaded two-part question.

You see, the question was cleverly crafted so that the "yes" answer makes the person appear to be unjust and unreasonable and unfairly closed minded to any viewpoint other than their own. The "no" answer makes the person look foolish for being so critical of the haters when it's not their fault for hating.

(I'm reminded of an well-known and oft-quoted line from the movie "Mommie Dearest" when Faye Dunnaway was dealing with the Pepsi board of executives.)

-- Joan C.

[votein04]

57. My point was clear...

you feel more hate because you're gay and a great deal of nastiness is directed at gays.

My question was no more than that, and I don't "know it". For kristssake, quit making something out of nothing.

Don't accuse me of a bunch of far-out "I know where you were going" crap. That's BS.

I don't have to defend myself to you. I told you in PM that I'm done responding to you so please just drop it.

You know nothing about me and you apparently know nothing about my attitudes. Maybe in the morning when you're relaxed with a cup of coffee you can read the whole exchange again and get a perspective a little closer to reality.

And I'd submit to you that if you're not mature enough to have your sexual orientation becomem part of a debate then don't advertise it.

Fini.

[arwalden]

61. "Fini'? --- "FINI"?? --- Oh dear! You declared a "fini" on me...

... Well big fella... indeed you are much too clever and mature for me. I wish I had had enough foresight to declare myself the "winner" by announcing "FINI".

Congratulations! How does it feel there, Sport?

But, before you head off to bask in the glory of your win... allow me to make an observation.

I found it noteworthy that you felt compelled to drag my sexuality into the conversation. That wasn't my intention... but oh well... if you want to talk about gays, we'll talk about gays. Whatever.

I find it most interesting that---not once---but TWICE you chose to characterize the fact that I don't hide my sexuality as "advertising" it.

> ... You advertise the fact that you're gay

followed up with

> ... have your sexual orientation becomem (sic)
> part of a debate then don't advertise it.

"Advertising"? I'M ACTUALLY A LITTLE SHOCKED that you didn't just come right out and say "FLAUNT". Please... by now you should know that it's okay to say what you mean around me instead of couching your words in code and euphemisms.

Your choice of words and how you choose to characterize my *not* being closeted is very revealing about your overall perception and attitudes. I think I smell and old double-standard.

My original message was about fundamentalist hatred. Had it been ANY BODY ELSE to post an identical message... ANY BODY AT ALL (that you assumed was *not* gay) would you have been so willing to assume that the the hatred they were feeling was because they were black, or jew, or female, or Canadian? Seriously.

There are PLENTY of folks around here who "advertise" their ethnicity, heritage, age, gender, combat status, nationality, their WHATEVER. --- So, had it been anyone OTHER than this flaunting queer who posted the first message, would you have even DARED to suggest that their overt---Jewishness, Blackness, Feminism, Atheism, Pick One---could be the justified reason for the hatred.

I'm reminded of the example where an employee dislikes the fact that his lesbian co-worker displays a photo of her partner on her desk. He absolutely gets livid because she has the NERVE to wear a "wedding" ring. In his opinion, she's just "advertising" her sexuality... flaunting it unnecessarily. It's a SMACK IN THE FACE to his religious beliefs. (As if, his religious beliefs precludes her right to even EXIST.)

Somehow this man man can't comprehend that the hetero equivalent to these small acts of simply being open are all around him, every day. --- Why is it normal and acceptable behavior for one group of people, yet the SAME behavior is considered to be unnecessary flaunting and advertising?

Perhaps that's a debate for another thread... on another day. (NOTE TO SELF: When things heat up, remember to shout "FINI" first!)

Hey there, Cowboy... you're not as mysterious and complicated as you would have us believe. I know how to read between the lines. I'm able to figure out a bit more about you than you think. You're not such a bad guy... I know that.

We're not so dissimilar. Sometimes when I don't think things through and get caught up in the fast paced volleying, I've been known to be a bit insensitive myself. Maybe we'll get to know each other better later on.

-- Allen

[arwalden]

63. An Apology To "votein04"

Thanks for taking the time to send a private message to me. I'm a hypersensitive sarcastice and offensive asshole. I misunderstood you and heaped scorn and ridicule on you unfairly. I'm an angry and thoughtless buffoon who is guilty of lashing out indiscriminately. Sorry.

-- Allen

[donco6]

66. Excellent post, Arwalden.

This guy has trouble with gay people in general. It's pretty obvious from his other posts.

[Deja Q]

19. They don't hate the US; they just want the US to be

a country where if you're not able to make it, you die. They're like libertarians and the darwin folks.

They also want big corporations to rule but at the same time tell the little people to try to make it on their own (hah! If you've got a skill or something intellectual, they'll buy it or force it from you. If you've got nothing, you get left to die.)

Hell, yes, hate them back. They deserve no less and certainly no compassion if one of their own gets swindled by the system THEY coddle and support. Well, maybe some of them do, but we sure as hell have every right to say "told you so!"

They hate progressives and liberals because they disagree with us.

As for people in general, it's pure apathy. They prefer their own paychecks above everything else.

And they're why America is such a cesspool.

And if they want me to leave, THEY CAN PAY FOR IT THEN. I'd love to leave, but the problem would still remain.

They ought to leave instead and make their own country. We'd do it, but they'd buy us out or kill us in the process.

[western mass]

20. without hate, they got nuthin

The republican party exists to serve the interests of a small minority (the very wealthy). Their dilemma is that, in a democracy, they need to convince a vast number of people whose interests they do not serve to support them. They can't appeal to reason: there aren't any rational reasons for these people to vote republican. They can only appeal to emotion. That's all they've got. Hate, fear, and pride; without these, they've got nothing.

[Capn Sunshine]

23. Yes, they do, and No, it doesn't help

:nuke:

[Generic Other]

24. Hey, it's no bother, believe me

It's a pleasure, I'm sure.

[Brian Sweat]

25. They hate us because deep down, they know that we are right.

They have staked out a number of position that are morally indefensible. They claim to be guided by honor and integrity, but it is liberals who have staked out positions based on these qualities. Deep down conservatives know this to be true and it drives them crazy.

Should you hate them back? I find it more fun just to mock them.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wuushew]

27. The death penality makes no sense morally or pragmatically

So really your opposition should be much greater

[JackDragna]

28. How completely and utterly incorrect.

1. I'm sorry, but if you're expecting moderation on a board that reflects one political viewpoint, you can forget it. Places like this are where people come to vent, to howl at the world and exorcise all of their frustrations. I would wager that on a day-to-day level, when dealing with liberal people, that liberals are far more tolerant of the opinions of other people than any other political group. The very hallmark of liberal political thought is tolerance, of doing what's best for everyone despite their differences.

2. I would say liberals have a better understanding of history than any other political group. Most professional sociologists, historians, economists and members of any other profession that deal with the human condition are liberal. Liberalism is the socio-economic response to the hoarding of wealth, the segregation of the other and the abuse of the powerless in society. I would further say that many of your assertions about what we think are wrong. Liberals don't qualify society in terms like "weak" and "strong." The groups we "coddle" are those whose rights have had a hammer taken to them. Without liberal "coddling," blacks and women would not vote and gays would be forced into the closet. Whenever society has had a step forward, it has been progressives first taking that step and showing society how it's done.

3. We don't think every shortcoming in humanity can be cured by the government, but you are naive to the extreme if you think there's some level playing field out there into which we all are born. There are some who by accident of birth get a lot more wealth, influence and power in this society than others. There are those who by accident of birth are born into wretched circumstances, into situations from which even the most driven and dedicated person would have a hard time escaping. What do libertarians have to offer these people? A head in the sand. An unwillingness to recognize that society has obligations to all its members and that some of these obligations aren't going to be fixed by the free market. Why is it that nearly all Western European countries, with their increased governmental involvement in society, have better markers of social health than we do? Better educated people, lower crime, lower infant mortality rate..if government intervention is so terrible, why are our social statistics so abominable? Why is the infant mortality rate in Detroit worse than several African countries? Big societies wither when the government is hamstringed.

4. If you think that society's obligations for action end with ending horrible ills, again, you're hopelessly naive. I consider a lack of adequate health care and perscription drugs to be an abomination. I consider the separation of wealth we have in this country to be an abomination. I consider the state of our public schools to be an abomination. I consider our military aggression and the woe it brings to be an abomination. What is an abomination, my friend, is in the eye of the beholder. The only way society can continue to survive is if it adapts and changes to the times and deals with new problems and social injustices. The "good old days" were never that good: if they were, no one would have wanted to go to the state we're at now. Society is in a constant struggle to maintain rights and freedoms for all citizens against the interests of those who would hoard them. If you think otherwise, it is you, my friend, who is not well versed in history.

As to your "oh, deleting things is just the modus operadi" post here, I'm tired of posts like that from debators. If you're not prepared to deal with people's responses, just don't post here. Save yourself the calories you burn from typing and engage in a more pacifist activity, like shuffleboard or cards. Jesus Jumping Christ.

[arwalden]

32. "A-A-Amen!" (Said The Atheist.)

It's a culture of hate. Hate is all they know. Hate is all they do. These folks have some serious control-issues. They aren't happy or content to simply live their OWN lives in the manner that they believe pleases their god. They must control others as well.

Just listen to Coulter and Rush and O'Reilly. Listen to their venom and hate. Look at the ones who adore them, read them, listen to them, and QUOTE THEM and follow them like pack-wolves.

I've got some leftover unused "Hate Is Not A Family Value" bumper stickers (from back when "Family Values" was the conservative code word for "we hate faggots")

"Shoo, Demon! Shoo! We must save them, or kill them... there's no two ways about it."

-- Allen

[FreeThinker]

29. your viewpoint is welcome.....

....and refreshing. Even though I disagree with some points, I do feel views such as yours NEED to heard in places like this. All too often, there is an "preaching to the choir" effect going on, in which people tend to pat each other on the back and close their minds as to what truly motivates the other side to think the way they do.

If the "left" (I'm not too big on labels to describe people, hence the quotes) spent more time listening to rural, pro-gun people or social conservative/economic liberals instead of demonizing them & calling them stupid, then those people might actually considering voting for them. But no, the tendency here is to belittle and mock anyone that deviates even slightly from the "liberal" consensus.

The "left" can be just as close minded and dogmatic as the right. Try to post a truly thought provoking post, like you did (instead of a simple troll message, which is easy to spot) and it will get ignored or someone will hit alert. Trying to explain the reasons why some people are hostile to liberals only disrupts the perfect little fantasy world many want to live in.

[wuushew]

31. Why does the left eat its' own then?

I refuse to believe in "liberal group-think", the GOP is the party of marching in lock-step. It will always be harder to be a liberal than a conservative because different opinions are tolerated.

[snippy]

33. I see nothing in your post which distinguishes republicans from

democrats or conservatives from liberals.

[sam sarrha]

30. Divide and Conquer, anger causes a biological reaction where the

blood vessels in the extremities and the brain to contract and store the blood in the abdomen, it is called the 'fight or flight response. This reduced flow of blood reduces the average IQ by 20 points, so getting angry reduces the average persons IQ to that of a Moron. there is method in their madness. and Madness in their method. in that state they are too dumb to even want to figure it out, they are just hav'n fun being 'hi 5'n white guys'. I want to make it clear that i am not intending to slander those normally with IQ's of 70. I used to do volunteer work at schools for mentally challenged people assisting them to live independently. they were without exception the most caring and hard working people i have ever met. but the story about the freepers is true.

[burr]

36. conservatives fall into two groups...

The bigots, corporate robber barons, and the religious right. This group is filled with hatred. Hatred for non-christians, hatred for the government, and hatred for non-whites and "uppity women" which they group into their collective Hillary mold. These right-wingers are the true nuts. The bigots and the religious right backed Wallace and Strom Thurmond as Democrats, and they will back Shrub and Delay as Republicans. Whoever can spark their rage. The robber barons like Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, and Michael Eisner will contribute to any party in the best position to get government out of their goddamned way!

Then you have what I call the tradition idealists. They aren't bigots, religious nuts, or even greedy. They honestly believe that passing taxcuts will result in a booming economy, that the poor will be helped by slashing and ending those "burdensome" safety nets, and that no wealthy American could ever be so unchristian as to deny an unemployed person a job, a poor child an education, or a low income person a living wage and basic healthcare. They believe that the DOD, the CIA, and Tom Ridge are all in it for the good of the people, and would never lie to the people or to Congress. Finally, they believe that Sam Walton is the best thing that ever happened to our "free entreprise system."

Basically if we just shut our mouths and follow the nicely organized company rules, we can all be Sam Waltons! Basically one group plays on the fears and ideals of the other group to get elected into office. And that is how the Republican party wins and maintains political power.

[nomaco-10]

37. Yes, I think most of them do hate us...

I think alot of them think we are a bunch of athiest, drug addicted, wife swapping, lazy, communinist "queers". It would almost be funny if they didn't feel so comfortable in the present political climate espousing these views every chance they get(enter Ann Coulter, Scarborough, Hannity, Nachman etc.) What was once considered PI, is now fodder for all talk shows and readily accepted conversation by most hosts who don't even try to hide it. Ann Coulter gets slobbered all over while Conason's new book is met with a "yeah, yeah you wrote a book I have to interview you" attitude. I am no longer that democrat who walks around lamenting "why can't we all jusy get along"? You know why, because we just can't! Our views and ideologies are too diametrically opposed and to quote Howard Beale: "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore".

[JanMichael]

38. They have a contempt that is growing exponentially.

Which puts us all in a contradictory position.

Our basic premise is Tolerance. But their Intolerance is but one mishap away from going horribly awry.

What then? Roll ove and take it like a good boy?

Fuck no. We have no choice but to fight back.

That said we have to be cognizant of our own descent into a warlike mentality.

It's against our philosophical leanings.

What am I trying to say? I don't rightly know...

[DemLikr]

39. This subject really disturbs me...I have relatives who seem like nice,

decent folks until you talk politics, and then they become pro-Bush death-Nazis who think John Ashcroft is doing a fine job, and don't mind that Shrub lied us into Iraq. But they're STILL pissed about Bill Clinton's penis being in Monica's mouth where it was perfectly welcum...

I strive to avoid the topics with these people. They can't support their position because they are uniformly UNinformed, so their befuddlement quickly turns to anger and yelling.

However, I think it wise to let the wingnuts, like my relatives, burn up their own energy with their hate, while I reserve my energy for pursuits which might actually yield positive results. Like getting Shrub out of office in 2004.

Hate hurts the hater much more than the hated.

[TrogL]

40. We fracture their world

Conservatives have carefully constructed something I call a "box" - a subset of the true world with its own rules and "truths". We don't fit into the box. They find that insanely frightening, and rather than change their world view, they would rather kill us.

[nolabels]

55. That reminds of this little heads up helper on a rented Buget moving....

van. It said something like "When packing, make sure not to put the dog and cat in the same box"


The Giant Cat
"Provide the Caption" Entries

http://www.comedymp3s.com/funnypictures/captions/giantcat.htm

[DOS2]

41. Some Of You Compartmentalize Way Too Much

Assuming all conservatives are the same, or even worse "they are the enemy", is no different from those who say all (take your pick: blacks, gays, liberals) are the same.

I'm a Democrat. I know Dems who are more liberal than me, I know Dems who are less liberal than me. I know Dems who are intelligent, rational and considerate people and I know Dems who are just plain fucking nuts and I wouldn't want them around my children.

But I guess Conservatives come standard from some factory right?

Some of my friends are politically conservative and I LOVE THEM. We sometimes don't agree politically bu SO WHAT. You don't rule the world and neither do I, but we both get our opinion. And there are Conservatives I just despise such as the religious right *when* they try and force their views on me. Otherwise, even they are entitled to their beliefs.

[burr]

42. Isn't that what political labels are for...to compartmentalize?

And besides, who said anything about partisonship...it's all conservatives we're talking about.

I agree they don't come out of the same camp or factory. But I do think there are two basic groups. Those who are motivated by hatred or personal greed, and those who honestly believe that their political actions will help..not hurt others.

I still view both groups as conservative. But one group consists of people who are vengeful, selfish, but shrewd. The other consists of those who are idealistic, deluded, but compassionate.

[DOS2]

47. Well...

first of all there are two kinds of each group.

Some are scially conservative and some are fiscally conservative. Some are even both. Some are socially liberal, some are fiscally liberal and some are both.

And neither group has the exclusive claim to evil or good.

[burr]

70. Those are your categories...

I just don't see them as informative. Is shrub a fiscal liberal and a social neo-con?

Or is being a fiscal conservative mean supporting a balanced budget, and paying down the national debt? Is being a social liberal supporting spending priorities like national healthcare and more college grants, or is it confined solely to positions regarding civil liberties and other issues like changing Mississippi's state flag?

[maggrwaggr]

45. you can be friends with conservatives?

I find I cannot actually be friends with conservatives. I have them in my family, so there are some that I love because of that, but friends .....?

It just doesn't work. The mindset is just too different. I work with people who are conservatives, and there's no way we could ever hang out, have a drink, and shoot the shit without having this come between us.

I wish I knew some conservatives that I could understand and feel empathy for .... but I don't. I find them to be either ignorant and uneducated, or just plain mean-spirited.

[DOS2]

48. Sure, I have very close friends

from the entire political spectrum.

My current girlfriend is very conservative. We agree on some things and disagree on others.

Because we respect each other as people we can look at each others views objectively. As a result she has adopted some of my politics and I have adopted some of hers. Even on those I don't agree with, I can at least usually understand why she feels that way.

Poltics aren't as simply as right and wrong. What is right for me isn't right for everyone. And what is right for you may not be right for me.

[arwalden]

52. "What is right for me isn't right for everyone." --- Thank you! Exactly!

That's a fantastic "live-and-let-live" sentiment. If only... IF ONLY the other side (dare I say... the enemy) would adopt the same mindset. Alas, they never will... Pity.

You're advocating mutual respect for our differing points of view... so why should it be okay for the hate filled fundamentalist conservatives to LEGISLATE their perception of "what's right" onto the rest of the country? Doesn't sound very respectful of me?

"Oh my! Pot is wrong. Evil. --- So you Mr. Aids Patient who has no appetite must waste away until you die even though they claim pot might help you."

"Oh dear! A zygote is a HUMAN BEING! Stem cells are HUMANS TOO!! --- So you Mr. Reeve should remain paralyzed forever. Sorry."

"Oh lordy! Stone the queers! --- You can't work here. You can't inherit property. Get out of town."

I'm not making this stuff up! If they are so opposed to abortions... then by golly, they shouldn't have any. If being queer is wrong, then they should avoid being caught at all costs.

Can you see the idiocy here? Can you see the hate? It's like being a a KKK rally. The hate is everywhere!!

[maggrwaggr]

53. Do you have any liberal friends?

If so, how liberal?

[arwalden]

50. Close! Fundamentalist Puritanical Conservatives Are All Reading From....

... the same book. Which essentially comes from the "same factory" you referred to. So in a way, I guess you're right.

And you know... I can easily ignore them and walk away when they merely want to proselytize. Obviously, they are entitled to their beliefs. I don't think I've suggested otherwise... and if anything I've said has made you believe that, then I heartily apologize for any misunderstanding.

THE BIG DIFFERENCE (and one I think you're intentionally overlooking for the sake of creating a lively exchange) IS WHEN THESE FOLKS TRY TO LEGISLATE THEIR PURITANICAL MYOPIC WAY OF LIFE ON EVERYONE ELSE.

This is not compartmentalizing. This is fact.

You ask "so what" in a rather cavalier way. I don't think you understand my concerns. The "so-what" about much of this has to do with the fact that SO MANY of these myopic hate-filled zealots are the ones in power.

Where have you been? From gay marriage, to adoption, to abortion, to stem cells, to condoms... the blind hate and prejudice and IGNORANCE of fundamentalism is controlling policy, law, and its enforcement.

Check out what's happening in Alabama. These palms-up-praise-jesus fundamentalists are obviously not the MAJORITY of people in Alabama... but they certainly are successful in skirting the LAW for their own purposes.

All of the apologists who keep making excuses for these folks and who continually accuse me of "not being understanding enough" and being "unfair" and "painting with a broad brush" are obviously and PURPOSELY mis-characterizing my message and OBVIOUSLY ignoring reality.

But, you're free to believe what you want to believe. Knock yourself out.

-- Allen

[Lengsel]

43. AGHH!

Yes they do. I live in a very conservative place in Texas and I can tell you that they see liberals as traitors. Often they put us in the same category as Osama bin Laden. I believe conservatives are lesser evolved beings. Notice how conservatives are often more barbaric and tend to think its ok to commit any kind of illegal act as long as it's their party is perpetrating the act. Many claim that liberals play "race cards," appeal to only uneducated idiots, etc. However, conservatives always play the religious card or the patriot card. Many claim to be religious but they go out binge drinking and fornicating. Many are homophobic males but these same guys like to watch two lesbians perform sexual acts. Many are hypocrites who have small minds. They cannot think outside of their own box.

[nolabels]

46. Allen, your my most favorite person when it comes to hanging..........

ones feelings on their sleeve. How could one believe another should help another figure out ones feelings should be towards something? I guess it could be done, but would that really be an honest way for essaying the emotion. I personally would be more than willing to hate them myself if it would diminish them of any of their substance.

To me feeding into anything they do only helps them. They actually live for such feelings from other people and that is not the part that scares me. The part that scares me is some are not able to understand what is happening to them on the subject or with the subject even after it is carefully and correctly shown for what it is and how it operates. What seems to me even stranger is that the people such activities hurt the most are the most susceptible to it. Nasty little vicious circles have never been made so hyperactive and reciprocating as they are today.

It’s senseless to operate in any part of it. Life is too short to operate and ensnarl life precious resource of time on it. Work with and support what supports you, it makes the journey so much more clear and easy to understand.

[arwalden]

62. I do do that... don't I? --- Right there on my sleeve... I see it now.

Thanks for the perspective.

-- Allen

[Renew Deal]

49. They hate us. You should...

not get mad. Get even!!!

[Booberdawg]

54. No we don't have to hate them back

Why give them all that rent-free space in our heads??

[delete_bush]

58. * is a uniter...

As others have pointed out there are several groups of haters out there with varying agendas and motivations. The bulk of the social conservatives are poorly educated, provincial, god-fearing and terrified of the unknown because they are ill prepared to confront it.

Since they don’t know you personally the hatred is not directed at you but their perception of who you are and what you stand for. And I think that for this group it is a visceral reaction. These people are stupid to the point of no return and do not have the ability to examine the reasons for their hatred.

My solution would be re-education camps but there’s just too many of them, the legislation would be difficult to pass, and the attempt would ultimately prove to be futile. The problem is that they can vote and procreate.

Another group would be their intellectual leaders, Hannity, Rush, Coulter, Wiener, et al. These are the really evil ones, they know they're manipulating these rubes for their own fame and fortune and have no shame.

I say go ahead and hate them back (with compassion of course). Bring ‘em on!

[tameszu]

59. I live with a moderate Republican

He doesn't hate me. I don't hate him (even though he keeps leaving his $@^$#^@ dishes in the sink and going away for the weekend!).

Most conservatives don't hate. They either see the world very differently from you, possibly because they are misinformed about a number of things. It's only the loonies who tune into Rush everyday and self-identify as dittoheads who are worrysome...I guess there may be some parts of the country where there's lots of those, though...

[ibegurpard]

65. The problem is

the loonies control the Republican Party and the moderates don't seem too concerned about it.

[Piperay]

60. I believe they REALLY do hate us...

not individually but they lump us all together so they can hate us as a group. I have friends and relatives that are CONservatives and they like me as a person but when you talk about liberals or Democrats then they hate all of them. I think they hate because that is what drives them the most, without hate they can't achieve what they want. They don't like to recognize liberals and Democrats as individuals because then it is to hard to hate you.

As far as hating them back, I think that has to be a personal decision. I hate them because otherwise I may weaken and not be fired up enough to get them out.

[bitchkitty]

64. They fear us -

and the more we achieve, the more they hate us. The more they hate us, means the stronger we are becoming.

Dean's going to win!

[donco6]

67. From the Bible

"The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost HATE all who do iniquity" (Psalms 5:5, NASB).

Hey, if God (via the local fundie preacher) says it's OK to hate gays, then who are the fundies to argue?

Hate them back? I don't have that much energy. I can only muster pity.

[EV1Ltimm]

69. how can they not hate us?

they've been told over and over and over again that we're trying to take all of their money, take their guns, take their god and make the US a communist dictatorship. and then, as if that wasn't enough, they are told that we hate america and want to destroy it.

[Lexingtonian]

72. Yes, they do, & No, you shouldn't

They hate what they can't understand, what they can't have/possess/control but others do. They want to be great but hate greatness, and that is why what they worship is mediocrity that is large in scale. Tearing down others is what they do best.

Living well is the best revenge. Don't let them get inside your head. Find your inward greatness and, if you must, let them suffer it at times. They hate being shown up.

Tolerance...there is no cure for foolishness, but it is wrong to tolerate the infliction of real harm.

In the mind of the so inclined, Puritanism is the fervent wish that the world be simple, that the force you use against others is always justified, and that your own hypocrisy doesn't actually matter.

No, they don't have anything better to do with their lives. But you do.