The Failed Papacy of John Paul II

[rpannier]

I am a Catholic, was born a Catholic and will die a Catholic. I make no apologies for it. But, after talking to my father...a lifelong Catholic and long-time defender of the Church...his anger at the Church amazes me.
I did not realize that in the 30's, 40's and 50's the Churches position on abortion was rather ambiguous. Some Diocese said abortion was cool up to the third month, some even as late as the sixth.
When my grandmother was pregnant with my aunt, my grandfather asked the parish Priest in Pittsburgh what he should do if my grandmother's health worsened...she was always a very sickly woman. He was told by the parish priest and by the Bishop in the Pittsburgh area, "Her life always comes first. If you suspect her health will be threatened, then the pregnancy must be terminated." Thankfully, she gave birth to my aunt with no complications.
It appears from talking to "Old Guard Catholics" that this opposition to abortion is a rather new phenomenom, perpetrated by this Pope. I would love to know why more good people don't do like my father and challenge the Churches spin on this topic.
This is just one revision of Catholic teaching and history this Pope has chosen to do. Why people revere his opinion is beyond me.

[2Design]

1. before this guy catholic hospitals had a rule that given the

choice, they had to save the baby.

[Spinzonner]

2. Apparently God's a busy deity

and gets behind revealing the truth to the anointed.

[BlueEyedSon]

3. People like to be told what to think. It's easier.

[displacedtexan]

4. "The Cardinal" by Henry Morton Robinson in 1950...

is the first reference to the Catholic church smiling on a mother dying in childbirth so that her fetus can live that I can find.

In the novel (and the film) the priest's sister will die if the doctor doesn't abort the child. The priest chooses to let his sister die.

I was appalled then, and I'm still appalled.

[Frodo]

5. The CHURCH's position has never been ambiguous, that BISHOP's

opinion might have been. But he would have been excommunicated if Rome had known.

In 1884 and 1886 there were papal decrees that NO operation of ANY type could be performed that ended the life of a fetus - EVEN to save the life of the mother. All of the Catholic hospitals my mother and grandmother worked in (including ALL of the 30s,40s and 50s) had signs in the delivery areas "in the event of a situation where only the baby or mother can be saved, we will save the baby".

The current pope is nothing new.

Pope Paul V1 wrote "It is not licit, even for the gravest reasons to do evil so that good may follow there from, that is, to make into the object of a positive act of the will something which is intrinsically disordered, and hence unworthy of the human person, even when the intention is to safeguard or promote individual, family or social well being...directly willed and procured abortion, even if for therapeutic reasons is to be absolutely excluded."

[Hoosier Democrat]

6. Abortion is not the only failure...

Like you, I was born and raised Roman Catholic. My great-grandfather was one of the founders of the largest parish for Eastern European immigrants in our area. Two of my cousins were nuns (one still is). As Polish-Americans, were were elated when a Pole was named Pope in 1978. Now, most of us are embarassed to share an ethnicity with this man.

The greatest failure of this pope is his adamant refusal to accept the fact that we are in the 21st century, not the Middle Ages. While I am not advocating an "anything goes" moral code, there just need to be some allowances for modernity. Yet, this pope has done his best to turn back the clock.

The simple fact is "He just doesn't get it". The Vatican's answer to the priest sex scandal is too telling. First, they try to prevent the American bishops (a thouroughly dispicable lot themselves) from forming an investigative body. Then, once a procedural document is approved, the Vatican vetoes it because it does not offer enough protection for the priests. Then, in a slap to every decent person, he gives papal honors to CARDINAL LAW, mastermind of the "musical perverts" game.

Now, the pope has released his newest document on feminism, which essentially says that women should be humble, listen, and nurture. Gee, how do you say "barefoot and pregnant" in Latin??

In fact, I got so fed up with the pope's BS that I left the Roman Catholic Church and joined the Polish National Church (basically Catholicism without the pope and with elected bishops). Their belief structure is much more in tune with me (and the 21st century).

[fairfaxvadem]

7. The Church refuses to tackle the real issues.

They and just about most right to lifer's I've heard (and correct me if I'm wrong), all refuse to really speak to the underlying issues of "abortion", which are many. Domestic violence, lack of opportunities for decent jobs and education, the mixed messages we send about sexuality, the lack of a serious sex ed and awareness in our schools and society in general, etc. When we make greater headway in these areas, I think we will see a comparable decrease in the need for abortions.

Abortions and the decision to have one, don't occur in a vacuum. Until we deal with the whole myriad of issues that specifically affect women, this argument over abortion is a non-starter for me.

[Parrcrow]

8. I'm moving this thread to the GD forum