Tell me about Wesley Clark

[bocadem]

Since there is a possibility that he might be Dean's running mate. Can you give me a quickie dossier on the guy?

[Keithpotkin]

1. i cant...

but they can.

http://www.draftclark2004.com/issues.asp

[Tinoire]

2. Well here- repasting what I just posted in a thread

((Apologies to Clark supporters but this is too important to me))

Clinton's war against Yugoslavia was a disgraceful chapter of an mostly distinguished Presidency. The spin on this war was unbelievably well manipulated that most people, to THIS day, have no idea what went on there. Clark is no hero in my eyes nor is he in the eyes of many soldiers and officers. Right now, Clark, who spent his entire life grooming himself for bigger and better posts right up to the Presidency is in the advantageous position of crafting whatever position is necessary to win an election. I’m sorry but “Anyone But Bush” has it’s limits and this is ONE line I will NOT cross. I am no huge fan of Dean but if he or anyone else adds Clark to his ticket, hell will never get cold enough for me to vote for them. Instead of listening to a bunch of campaign operatives, most of whom showed up at DU at the same time, do your own research. Google Wesley Clark and War Crimes or War Criminal. Look at the pictures. Think of all the innocent men, women, and children who were MURDERED by a General that MILITARY OFFICERS, to include the most decorated officer alive, called THE PERFUMED PRINCE. Our country is at stake! Our future and the future of our children is at stake! This is no time for partisan politics, sentimental attachment to candidates, or anything except the most researched and informed vote!

Tinoire,
20 year Military Veteran, Veteran for Peace

Here are some great articles by By Col. David Hackworth (Ret.) to get you started http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+site:www.hackworth.com+Wesley+Clark+%22David+Hackworth%22 and Hackworth’s material is trustworthy no matter what you think about the military and the man’s political beliefs.
Before Iraq: Strengthen allies, weaken al-Qaeda ((in other words, punch a few ticket holes before going to bomb the shit out of them))
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2002-09-09-oplede_x.htm

Clark and George Soros ((billionaire stock market and currency manipulator who plundered the Ukraine and was up to his neck in the war against Yugoslavia and is now putting up $10 mln of his personal funds to an organisation seeking to defeat George Bush at the forthcoming US presidential elections. ))

Soros's International Crisis Group boasts such "independent" luminaries as the former national security advisers Zbigniew Brzezinski and Richard Allen, as well as General Wesley Clark, once Nato supreme allied commander for Europe. The group's vice-chairman is the former congressman Stephen Solarz, once described as "the Israel lobby's chief legislative tactician on Capitol Hill" and a signatory, along with the likes of Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz, to a notorious letter to President Clinton in 1998 calling for a "comprehensive political and military strategy for bringing down Saddam and his regime". http://www.indymedia.nl/nl/2003/08/13132.shtml

As another DU poster researched How Can you trust someone who worked for Jackson Stephens and Acxiom? Make sure you read up on this one guys!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thenewbushwhackerbrigade2/message/15989?source=1

and DU research about this:
http://www.stephens.com/
http://www.acxiom.com/AcxDisplay/1%2C1486%2C0~en%2C00.html


Acxiom's 2002 proxy (includes Board of Directors)
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/733269/000073326902000007/proxy2002.htm
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=jackson+stephens+
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=jackson+stephens+AND+BCCI
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=jackson+stephens+AND+drug+trafficking
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=wesley+clark+AND+war+crimes

(from this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID60/23181.html#8 )

Informative, sourced FR thread on Clark (because contrary to popular opinion, there is such a thing as a thinking Freeper)

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38331cb52099.htm

Progressive War Crimes Tribunal finds Clark guilty and lists why.
http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/wct2000.htm

Announcement of this Tribunal with why’s and who and how and based on what evidence http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/wc112099.htm

Clark & his friends on the Palestinians
An article by General Wesley Clark, appearing in Time magazine, discussed the situation on the ground in Israel and the Palestinian territories praising “Israel sfor the way it fought the intifada inside Israel.” Describing the West Bank and Gaza as “inside Israel,” it praised “Israeli use of assassination, Apache helicopters, and armed vehicles, and all sorts of ways and means which Israel used to kill political leaders.”
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/pubs/20011114ftr.html

Clark wasn’t drafted. Clark & Soros have been running this operation from the start. What kind of a draftee tells his “operatives” to Crank it up? General Clark tells his troops to "Crank it up!" Clark: Crank It Up
"Clark recently phoned one close adviser, who spoke on condition of anonymity, and said, 'Crank it up.' The Clark adviser said that the former NATO chief is smart to stay out of the race until after Labor Day, but not much longer after that. He pointed to the number of debates and forums that the Democratic hopefuls have on tap and the chance that these encounters will do little to clarify the race -- as was the case in the recent AFL-CIO forum in Chicago. The Clark adviser speculated that the general will be better positioned for a run if he has a message that seems fresher for not having been part of the clutter."
http://www.draftclark2004.com/news_detail.asp?nid=92

No Ticker Tape Parade for War Criminal General; No Tough Questions, Either
"America's triumphant general in the Kosovo war received less than a hero's welcome yesterday from US senators, who criticized the lack of readiness for a ground invasion, poor intelligence estimates, and the now open-ended mission of American peacekeepers," the Boston Globe reported July 2.
In his first extensive public assessment of NATO's 11-week air war, General Wesley Kanne Clark, the alliance's supreme allied commander in Europe, told the Senate Armed Services Committee called the battle ''a testament to political unity and the will of NATO members to stand up to the humanitarian tragedy'' inflicted on ethnic Albanians by Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.
But the four-star "Clinton general" appearance before Congress stood in absolutely stark contrast to the standing ovations given by Congress to the last returning American war commander, General H. Norman Schwarzkopf, who delivered a stirring 20-minute tribute on May 8, 1991 to both houses of Congress. By comparison, Clark suffered through the indignity of being caught in Washington traffic and then entered a huge Senate hearing room a few minutes late to find only six of the 19 committee members at their seats. (13 eventually appeared.) And when Clark finally answered the last question more than three hours and no ovations later, only two senators were left. Spectators numbered 11.
<snip>
Clark answered his last question close to 1 p.m., and stayed for a few minutes to discuss the Pristina airport situation with Senator John Warner of Virginia and Senator Carl Levin, a Michigan Democrat. The general threw his arms in the air and had a hard time keeping his voice down, despite the presence of reporters nearby, the Globe said.
http://www.truthinmedia.org/Kosovo/Peace/ps13.html

A little mail archive with posts WE should have been writing: http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/

More info on this monstrous war: http://www.swans.com/library/art7/gowans02.html

From the International Action Center with which we tried so hard to stop the war on Iraq and why they were so outraged about the war against Yugoslavia. Was Iraq bogus? You bet your sweet ass this one was too! http://www.workers.org/ww/1999/warcrime0805.html
-----------------------
http://www.greenspun.com/com/zpub/un/clark.html
Contributed by Bob Petrovich ([e-mail]) on September 6, 2001.
I want to second what Bob Petrovich wrote. I would like to say that I was one of the attendees of Gen. Wesley Clark's talk at the Pentagon Centre Borders Books, and I saw how biased his presentation was.
I'd also like to add that Clark came across as a truly arrogant and rude person. He confirmed the opinion I have had for a long time about military commanders, that they have egos as big as all outdoors. They fancy themselves to be great "heroes," and expect to be treated with fawning respect and admiration by everybody, and thanked profusely for "saving our freedom." They need to be brought down a notch, and I think that's what those of us opposed to NATO aggression against Yugoslavia did to Clark at his presentation.
I don't think he's used to being challenged on his beliefs. This would account for the rude remarks and tone of voice he used against Mr. George Jatras and myself when we asked him critical questions. (Like how could he justify using such weapons of mass destruction as cluster bombs, and depleted uranium, which will poison the environment in the Balkans for generations to come, against a nation which never did us any harm).
-------------------------------------

From the Association of Former Intelligence Officers

RAF VIEWS ON KOSOVO INTELLIGENCE SUPPORT. A draft RAF analysis being submitted to a British Ministry of Defense study of the lessons learned from Kosovo was recently leaked to a London paper. Presumably the final MoD assessment will be tabled in NATO channels later in the year.

The published extracts from the RAF draft ascribed NATO's disappointing Kosovo performance to serious failings in intelligence, training, weapons and other hardware. The restrictions incurred in coalition fighting will probably be addressed cautiously in the final report also. The RAF study notes intelligence reports about Serbian troop and equipment locations took up to three days to reach front-line attack squadrons, by which time the Serbs had changed position. Many pilots found themselves "bombing old tank tracks" or civilians as a result, the document says.

<snip>
The delays that made intelligence on Serbian forces "days behind" real events are blamed on the Americans, whose spy satellites, drones and aircraft mostly supplied the raw material. "Everything had to be exhaustively processed and analyzed through this bureaucratic American intelligence machine, and it took far too long," said one RAF officer. (Source: WTimes 26 July '99. p. A1.)

http://www.afio.com/sections/wins/1999/34.html

----------------------------------

Here's more stuff I'm finding about this CFR member, Wesley Clark

Apparently, the Boston Globe reported on the following on July 2, 1999

"America's triumphant general in the Kosovo war received less than a hero's welcome yesterday from US senators, who criticized the lack of readiness for a ground invasion, poor intelligence estimates, and the now open-ended mission of American peacekeepers,"

<snip>

But the four-star "Clinton general" appearance before Congress stood in absolutely stark contrast to the standing ovations given by Congress to the last returning American war commander, General H. Norman Schwarzkopf, who delivered a stirring 20-minute tribute on May 8, 1991 to both houses of Congress. By comparison, Clark suffered through the indignity of being caught in Washington traffic and then entered a huge Senate hearing room a few minutes late to find only six of the 19 committee members at their seats. (13 eventually appeared.) And when Clark finally answered the last question more than three hours and no ovations later, only two senators were left. Spectators numbered 11.

Senator James M. Inhofe of Oklahoma said: ''I do think that we have abused and we have lied to the public as to the atrocities'' that were taking place in Kosovo.

Senator Olympia J. Snowe, a Maine Republican, questioned Clark's battlefield damage assessments. A Globe reporter, in two weeks of extensive travel throughout the province, saw only three destroyed Yugoslav military vehicles - two tanks and one armored personnel carrier. ''I stand by the figures that we released on confirmed battle damage,'' Clark said. ''That was 110 tanks, 210 armored fighting vehicles and 449 artillery and mortar tubes.'' He did say that pilots hit some ''dummies,'' or fake military equipment built by Yugoslav troops as decoys.

<snip>
Clark answered his last question close to 1 p.m., and stayed for a few minutes to discuss the Pristina airport situation with Senator John Warner of Virginia and Senator Carl Levin, a Michigan Democrat. The general threw his arms in the air and had a hard time keeping his voice down, despite the presence of reporters nearby, the Globe said.

<snip>

http://www.truthinmedia.org/Kosovo/Peace/ps13.html
------------------------

Chicago - Almost - Confronts Clark

May 1, 1999 As NATO and the Clinton Adminstration, in open defiance of the U.S. Congress, which voted last Wednesday to strip the war against Yugoslavia of any legitimacy, escalate their campaign of death and destruction, opposition to this criminal endeavor is mounting from increasing sectors of the public. Panel discussions and teach-ins, the latter reminiscent of the Vietnam War era, are springing up on nearly every campus across the city. Radio talk show call-ins and letters to the editor in both major Chicago daily newspapers are heavily in favor of ending the war and negotiating a peaceful settlement of this tragic and complex conflict.


...NATO has killed thousands of civilians in less than one month.
Clarence Page and Steven Chapman, both nationally-syndicated columnists based at the Chicago Tribune, have spoken out bluntly, and in Chapman's case repeatedly, for an end to the bombing and a
peaceful resolution of the crisis. In fact, not one single columnist in either daily, the Chicago Tribune and the Chicago Sun-Times, has written in support of the war.

The entire Democratic Congressional delegation voted against the resolution authorizing ground troops in the House on Wednesday, and one Congressman, Jesse Jackson, Jr., voted against the resolution on the air war.

Most impressive, though, is the almost spontaneous outpouring of anti-war sentiment from the general population here in Chicago. Several mass demonstrations have occurred in the last two weeks, the most spirited of which, arguably, was outside the Hotel Intercontinental on Michigan Avenue this past Monday. Major media networks and the press continue to ignore anti-bombing demonstrations. ]font color="red"] Wesley Clark, the Bomber of the Balkans, was to have been the guest of honor at a fete organized by the Chicago Council of Foreign Relations. Being otherwise occupied, largely with raining cruise missiles and "dumb bombs" on Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro and Bulgaria, a last minute replacement arrived instead.
We were ready for him. An estimated crowd of 500 people gathered outside the hotel on Chicago's upscale Michigan Avenue, Miracle Mile as it's known locally, with bullhorns, banners and a simulated air raid siren.
<snip>

The marchers were a diverse group, reflecting the wide range of sponsors: Illinois Peace Action, 8th Day Center For Justice, the Serbian Unity Congress and a busload of Veterans for Peace en route from California to the East Coast.

<snip>

http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg01415.html

DU links: Clark and Axciom:/ Homeland Security http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212190#212501


And now, I am very tired. Not even for ABB should we let ourselves be so blinded. I’ll hold my nose and take a normal Dem Centrist if I HAVE to– you can scare my principles out of me that much but NO WAY will I enable such a man and the people behind him to run my country.


Written in response to this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=81043&mesg_id=81043#81703

[JohnKleeb]

4. I opposed that war too

So did Mr. Kucinich.
"My interest started when I saw how quickly our nation slipped into the bombing attacks on Belgrade a few years ago. I saw in my own Democratic Party individuals who were otherwise people of good will suddenly getting swept up in this furor to bomb Belgrade. It was almost like a virus worked its way though the consciousness of people." He is right and Ive been wanting to share this. These people who suffered in the bombings they were human beings and to note they are my people in a way. Please guys, I dont have a problem with generals usually but I opposed Kosovo with all my heart.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

5. Thanks for Telling Me About Kucinich

I didn't know that.

How, pray tell, would he have proposed stopping the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Kosovars? Stage sit-ins while Serbian paramilitary irregulars busily slit throats and commit rapes?

DTH

[JohnKleeb]

7. well maybe by NOT bombing the hell of Belgrade

You know that many Serbs suffer from the dupleted uranium, I dont think bombing civilians was right, many died, and I am not calling Clark a butcher or nothing like that yet you act like I and Kucinich supported the genocide, I have a Serbian friend many of her relatives will eventually get ill from the Dupleted uranium. I dont deny Milosevic was terrible but you think there was nothing wrong with bombing civilians then you are wrong.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

8. OK, We'll Agree to Disagree As Well

Given the constraints Clark was forced to operate under, I think the only thing that could possibly have brought the Butcher Slobo to heel was bombing his infrastructure (which, incidentally, are legitimate targets under the rules of warfare).

I keep hearing this DU claim, but I never see any support. DU is typically used as tankbuster ammo in high-velocity projectile weapons; most of the action in Belgrade involved bombs, not DU.

If you have any more info on the DU part, I'd love to read it. Thanks.

DTH

[JohnKleeb]

9. I will get some and I think I mentioned I have that friend

I will agree to disagree with you on this too, I will give you this too you are showing a lot of class I appreciate it, Ive gotten in disagreements or Ive seen others do the same and they get hell but you are showing class and I respect that. I will search for that information but I do trust my friend as a reliable source. I will never apologize for Slobodan Milosevic but I must express my sorrows to those who died.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. Thanks

I will agree to disagree with you on this too, I will give you this too you are showing a lot of class I appreciate it,

The feeling's quite mutual. :-)

I will search for that information but I do trust my friend as a reliable source.

Cool, please let me know when you get a chance.

I will never apologize for Slobodan Milosevic but I must express my sorrows to those who died.

On that we agree wholeheartedly. The mother of an innocent Serb child who was killed will weep no fewer tears than the mother of an innocent Kosovar child who was killed.

DTH

[tameszu]

12. There was some DU used in Kosovo

And not just by the Americans--I believe it is standard on many NATO armaments (it's also placed on the tips of bombs to increase their penetration).So almost *any* contemporary conflict in which a NATO force deploys these armaments will involve DU being used.

NATO did an extensive study on this and concluded that it causes no ambient health problems, but the organization does of course have an interest in this.

Given the widespread use of DU by the world's advanced militaries and the inconclusiveness of whether it has negative health consequences, this seems like something awfully down at the "micro" end to hang on Clark. I suppose anyone in the military can attempt to push for their various component forces to get rid of DU, but it seems like it would not be worth it to even the most dedicated micromanager who was concerned about civilian casualties. One could probably save more innocent lives by spending that time being as careful as possible about operational procedure, targeting, and so on.

[JohnKleeb]

13. I am not pinning the DU on Clark!

You know thats the same shit thats screwing up the Gulf War Vets. What do you mean DU isnt that bad, thats why so many of the gulf war vets are sick. Gulf War Syndrome.

[tameszu]

16. I know you're not doing it

But it often gets wrapped in there quite easily, it seems.

I would personally not want to bet that DU is safe. And I think that people who advocate a ban on it are very prudent.

But as far as assigning prxoimate blame goes, the studies are inconclusive, and the Gulf War Syndrome is an especially hot topic of debate. Right now, the number one suspected cause of GWS seems to be the zillions of anti-bilogical and chemical weapons vaccines and pills and so on that all of the soldiers had to take. I imagine that the effects of that cocktail would be tough to entangle from the other nasty environmental factors (burning oil wells being very significant) as well as DU.

[JohnKleeb]

17. DU is definely a factor for sure

I feel so bad for those who suffer from GWS, a lot of factors I agree but DU and others contributed. Landmines now they ought to be banned imo same with DU.

[Julien Sorel]

14. They used Warthogs in Kosovo as tank busters;

they are armed with a chaingun that uses DU ammo.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

15. Oh Yeah

Totally forgot about the A-10. I didn't think they used them around Belgrade, though, since they'd be useless at higher altitudes, and sitting ducks at lower ones (shoulder-fired missiles are next to impossible to avoid near an urban environment, as you probably already know).

Thanks for the reminder!

DTH

[DoveTurnedHawk]

6. All of That Information Is Horribly Biased

If you want a biased look from the other side of it, try:

www.draftwesleyclark.com
www.women4clark.com

If you want a more even-handed look, try:

http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2003/030801_mfe_clark_1.html

DTH

[Chango]

20. So what?

I don't care if Clark is a satanist, as long as he can help defeat Bush - either as a candidate on the ticket or as an arbiter in the election process.

[Trajan]

23. You REALLY REALLY hate Clark ....

ACK ! ... Strike that ....

You REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY Hate Clark .....

I must say: ... I am hoping to read that post in EVERY thread the next few months, like tonight .... Since I cant get enough of that good old hate stuff ....

[Bertrand]

3. Dean won

i forgot

[tameszu]

10. Let's start by getting rid of the biggest negative first:

Possibly the most praiseworthy UN institution, the its international war crimes tribunals, found "no evidence of NATO war crimes in Yugoslavia":

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/06/02/UN.war.crimes/

Also note that because of the International Crimnal Tribunal for the fromer Yugoslavia's presence in the Balkans during the intervention, NATO's action was probably more carefully scrutinized for its propriety than any previous military action. (The ICTY was one of the forerunner war crimes tribunals to the ICC). Also, Clark is credited with working more closely with UN war crimes tribunals than just about any other American military commander: he assisted ICTY chief prosecutor Louise Arbour apprehend several war criminals from Bosnia.

David Hackworth's characterization of Clark as a perfumed prince seems to be a result of personal animosity toward Clark and his general style of smarty-pants generals. Hackworth dismissively notes that Clark isn't a "muddy boots solider" who spent only 7 of his 34 years in the field. But it's worth noting that most of those 7 years were in Vietnam, where Clark was not pushing around paper in the rear eschalon, but actually in zones dangerous enough to have been wounded 4 times there. I think 7 years in the field is actually not a bad amount of time for any living human being.

As for positives, this is why I support Clark:

-Clark has consistently articulated since last year a coherent and realistic critique of the war and the Bush Admin's policy.

-But he hasn't just been saying "Bush is bad." Or "war is bad." Clark has clearly and intelligently articulated why he thinks war was unnecesary AND presented a realistic, multilateral alternative that would be better for both America and the world community, in both terms of both morality and law. He places a great emphasis on international law and international institutions, two things that this country has been pretty prickly toward. I think his credentials would make it possible for him to drag the U.S. into fuller and fairer participation in these institutions.

-He is a very clear speaker who is able to communicate complex positions in terms normal people can understand, but without dumbing down his message. He's quick on his feet and does very well in interviews. He doesn't mince words and he doesn't come across as whiny or overly negative--but when he does hit, watch out! I think Tom DeLay is still picking pieces of Clark's shoe leather out of his butt...

-He takes a long-term view of the environment, the economy, and the constitution. America needs more people who are willing and able to look at things seriously from a "100-year" timespan point of view. He's a solid progressive who can articulate his positions in terms that make them seem reasonable to moderate conservatives. He can talk about economic justice in a way that won't strike red staters as whiny. And he's solid on all of the core progressive issues: pro-choice, very skeptical of the PATRIOT Act, would strongly uphold separation between church and state, opposes ANWR drilling, supports more federal education funding, and so on.

-He's from the south, he's telegenic, has great academic, military, and business credentials. He has a moderate position on guns, lack of political baggage, and background as a general, so it's very hard to paint him as a "librul radical." People know him from his stint as CNN war analyst. And of course can speak to security issues with a great deal of credibility. All of this gives him a prima facie great profile in terms of electability.

-Clinton likes him and thinks he'd make a good prez. A good number of traditional lefty Dems are among his supporters. And so does Michael Moore. That captures like 96% of the Democratic Party, doesn't it? :)

He has a burgeoning Internet draft movement that's generating a lot of buzz and some money, and he's done nothing to promote it--that has to say something about his charisma.

[G_j]

18. Do you have a link

on Michael Moore's take on Clark?
If you've seen "Bowling for Columbine", there is a segment that is highly critical of the bombing of Kosovo.

[JohnKleeb]

19. I dont remember that thing with Moore being critical of Kosovo

but I do remember reading that somewhere.

[tjdee]

21. Here is the direct quote:

"As I suggested to people at the press conference earlier, Dennis Kucinich is good, Al Sharpton is good, but there's a ... I would love to see this. There's a four-star general ... he used to be the commander of NATO. His name is Wesley Clark. He was a Rhodes scholar. He's a Democrat. He would repeal the Bush tax cut for the rich. He submitted a brief in support of affirmative action to the Supreme Court. He's pro-choice. I could go down the list, and he's actually quite good on all the issues -- and he's a general. I would just love to see the debate between the general and the deserter.(Applause.) So if the Democrats really wanted to win, they should run somebody who could win -- and that would be an interesting race."

Some naysayers are trying to say it's said in "sarcasm", but I invite anyone to listen to it themselves (link below). The "sarcasm" charge is ridiculous on its face, and anyone familiar with Moore in interview settings knows when asked about his own opinion, he tends to give the straight deal as he sees it.

http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=7594
(It's in "Public Q & A", about 14:53)

[JohnKleeb]

22. its obvious hes serious

but not a knock on Clark it really isnt and no I am not calling him a nazi, Rommel wasnt one, It seems like Moore opposed Kosovo as did I so why would he support the commander of something he opposed, it would be like supporting Rommel for Chancellor after WWII(didnt happen because ol Ervin was forced to take poison in 1944) but you opposed the third reich now I am not being harsh but I am merely making a point. I also think anyone could beat Bush, and I dunno Moore I wonder what he would think of Dean's gun views. I still want Kucinich people; and I yearn for the day when he wins the presidency.

[Oracle]

24. He's the one....Dude..well smoothhhh...

Dude, dude..if General Clark is announcing...

Clark is that weird ace in the hole