Prediction: Kerry drops out soon

[jeter]

He is in free fall in New Hampshire. He trails Dean by 18% now. If he loses there, he has no where to go. With Clark entering the race, he won't get any credit for being a veteran.

I say he drops out by the end of September.

[clar]

1. And I say you couldn't be more wrong

Why should he drop out? He's got plenty of money. I suspect he's raising plenty of money, even as we sit here and natter.
He's a solid candidate- intelligent, experienced and thoughtful. Yeah, his campaign managers are doing a lousy job, but it's only August, 5 months before the first primary.

[Bandit]

8. Can't buy love

Dean's "Deanyboppers seem to actually "love" Dean but I don't see that adoration in any of Kerry's fans. I don't think he will drop out until after South Carolina and he will get a high possition when Dean wins the Presidency.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

15. yep, Dean's a cult leader, Kerry a politician

or at least, if Dean's people actually "love" him, he is. Fortunately most Democratic voters vote with their brain engaged, and our Democratic institutions like the AFL-CIO, NAACP, NOW, etc., know how to vote in blocks when they endorse candidates.

[meegbear]

18. Just like Charles Manson's family ...

the deanpers worship him and any insubordination is dealt with harshly.

[CWebster]

23. NASTY

The people loved FDR too, and Kennedy. They didn't love Nixon and it isn't like Bush is greeted by crowds of adoring fans everywhere he goes.

[ronnykmarshall]

39. Bad Bear, bad!

You need a :spank: !!

[Nederland]

54. I have to ask

I've see your posts for weeks now and just have to ask: Who is Cindy Alexander and why do you have a picture of her in your sig?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

142. Click the link and find out.

[sendero]

53. waaaahhhhhhhhh.....

.... my horse is not going to win so I'm going to trash everyone else's. Waaaaaahhhhhhhh. Kerry made his own bed and yes, politician is the best description for him.

[salin]

66. that is so far out of line

disgusting analogy. I hate to see blocks within our own party demonized in such a way.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bandit]

19. One thing about it, we will all see in the near future who has the peoples

interest. You could very well be correct and if Kerry gets the nomination I'll vote for him in a heartbeat. I just see the evidence and it leans heavily in Dean's direction. IMHO of course

[Khephra]

27. You and Meeg and the rest of you Dean bashers can keep on doing

what you're doing...

because every freaking prediction that you all keep making about the campaign turns out not to be only untrue, but incredibly off. And each negative comment and bash just makes us work harder at proving you all wrong.

You all make me laugh more every day than the posts here that are trying to be funny on purpose.

Bash away...we'll just keep on working our asses off and besting each and every one of your predictions.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

32. just trying to keep up with the increasingly hostile Dean campaign

I've never seen the kind of dirt thrown around by the Deanites, but Clark sure as hell has you scared doesn't he?

And I'll tell you what, the Deanie who started this thread with the ridiculous "Kerry will drop out soon" - let's see how accurate that prediction is?

[Khephra]

33. LOL

You must not be paying attention to my posts, huh? I've only wished the anti-Iraq war candidates the best of luck. I support anyone running who was against the BS Resolution.

Clark is one of the three candidates that I'd proudly vote for (who I think stand even a bit of a chance).

Frankly, the worst shit I've seen thrown here has been from been from a few Clark supporters, with a couple Kerry and Kucinich supporters tied for second place.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

48. not you personally khephra

I'm not saying that you personally are hostile, just many Dean posters. I realize I get more than my share, because of my consistent Dean bashing, but I'm fine with it :)

[TLM]

76. Can you please point out the post where Dean supporters

said other candidate's supporters were like the fucking manson family?

[Tinoire]

37. Rare time I disagree w/ you- Keph has ALWAYS been fair! From day ONE

Yest there were a few problems with Dean supporters at the beginning but it was never with the DUers- it was mostly with people whose names had never been noted in any of our previous political discussions.

One of these days, I'm going to do pull some of those horrible divisive threads that appreared out of the blue from supposedly "pro-Dean" posters and see just what patterns there are...

[Khephra]

46. Now I'll admit I was bad to Lieberman up until a few weeks ago

But I've since made a purposeful effort to not bash anyone, even Lieberman.

(Now I'll defend Dean when other's bash him without reason, but that's defensive. I don't believe in turning the other cheek. Critical comments are cool...but the stupid baseless shit from DUers needs to stop.)

At first I was cool with the candidates bashing each other, as that's always been a part of the Primary process.

But then DUers took up the bashing of other supporters and took it to a level that I didn't know was possible.

It's a candidate's job to set themselves apart from the rest of the crowd...we DUers don't need to set ourselves apart--we're one big family.

[Khephra]

58. Actually, I shouldn't have responded to you

I agree that this thread is baiting Kerry supporters.

It's just that the above "Charles Manson" comment pushed me over the edge and your comment was the next critical one...I should have responded to the Manson one instead. That's way over the line.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

62. I don't really think Dean is a cult leader

I do think that the Dean astro-turfing on DU is ridiculous, and I really think the "he makes me feel so good" posts are starting to sound cultish - which I do not include you in. See, I can be civil at times :)

[Khephra]

65. You're not even on my list of people I think are over-the-line

So don't worry. We're cool.

:-)

[JVS]

93. I agree to some extent

Since I have difficulty deciding between Gephardt and Dean (and Kucinich on the long shot that he has a chance come the PA primary) I find the "makes me feel good" argument to be not only unconvincing but disturbing.

[TLM]

74. Who won the Wellstone award?

You keep attacking Dean, and trying to claim his supporters must all be cult members who are not thinking... because they refuse to support Kerry.

It couldn't be that they do not like Kerry kissing Bush's ass for the last 3 years, no, they have to be stupid cult members.

It is exactly that mentality that is the reason Kerry is now almost 20 points behind Dean.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

80. well I don't know about why Kerry is 20 points behind Dean

but I do know that neither Kerry nor Dean is getting my vote, so what exactly is your point? I claim his supporters must all be cult members who are not thinking? You said that, I didn't.

I'm just tired of the Dean hype, 90% of which is either empty rhetoric or pie-in-the-sky promises, that's all. Dean would certainly be better than Bush, and better than Lieberman too, no doubt about it.

[TLM]

92. Kerry is behind because his lips are planted on W's ass

"I claim his supporters must all be cult members who are not thinking? You said that, I didn't."

You said...


"yep, Dean's a cult leader, Kerry a politician..."

"...or at least, if Dean's people actually "love" him, he is. Fortunately most Democratic voters vote with their brain engaged, and our Democratic institutions like the AFL-CIO, NAACP, NOW, etc., know how to vote in blocks when they endorse candidates."



So Dean supporters are cult members and do not have their brain's engaged?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

106. yes, that's what I said, notice how it's different than what you said

Someone posted that you can't buy love - that Dean's supporters love him. That's exactly the kind of empty-minded Dean rhetoric I have a problem with, so I ridiculed it, rather effectively considering the typical shrill responses from the Dean crowd.

Guess what? I know the issues, I know the candidate's stand on the issues, I'm pretty familiar with their backgrounds, and I think Dean is one of the least desirable candidates with the least possibility of beating Bush.

[JVS]

94. Read his sig tag

[izzie]

26. I am with you. I do not know why he is not doing better but it is early.

I like the input from them all really. I hated how Bush did it. Behind everyones back he got all that money so sort of just pushed his way in. Im sure he sold off all the good spots long before he ran and to old men who lost elections or were out of office. It was the biggest payoff I have ever seen.

[Dhalgren]

31. I tend to agree with you.

5 months, in this campaign, is a very long time. I forsee many ups and downs by the various candidates. I also have a feeling that Dean will make a fairly major misstep between now and Jan. This is just beginning - no one (except, maybe, Holy Joe) needs to think about dropping out just yet.

[wtmusic]

2. Nope

However if you mean 'soon' being after the primary, I'd agree with you.

[graham67]

3. Isn't he...

formally announcing his candidacy at the beginning of September? I seriously doubt he's going to drop out in the same month.

[onehandle]

4. No way...

If he is number two in the polls, he'll be in through Spring of next year. Several of them will be. History says so.

[sangh0]

5. *Yawn*

a predictable prediction. I bet everyone here can guess who you support.

[gratuitous]

6. If he does, that would be dumb

Jeez, it's six months until the first primary, and 15 months until the election! Candidates are still positioning themselves and busy raising "credibility" money. Dropping out now, by practically anyone, would be a dumb move. There's still a lot of campaign money and a lot of support holding back yet, and backers are waiting to see either clear choices or how someone deals with temporary adversity.

[Le Taz Hot]

7. Oh, not EVEN!

It's going to be Dean, Kerry and (possibly) Gebhardt, right down to the wire. Kerry is still VERY competitive in this race.

[Robb]

9. No, no, no, silly...

We've got to have a nasty campaign fight first, with tons of name-calling, and alienate folks who supported whoever doesn't win the nomination.

How long have you been a Democrat? :eyes:

(passes out grains of salt)

[Octafish]

10. Kerry has yet begun to fight.

Be certain the polls will reflect it when he does begin to campaign. Did you know:

As a Senator, John Kerry has brought the fight to the Bush Organized Crime Family, AKA the Bush Family Evil Empire (BFEE). And he has a record of going after the thugs who’ve stolen our country.

If I have my way, he’ll be the next President of the United States. I’m thankful there are a lot of people on DU who feel likewise. Then Kerry can get busy finishing the job he started against the BFEE.

Kerry's got a tough fight, looking at the list of bastards he’s faced so far: George Herbert Walker Bush, John Poindexter, Ollie North, Manuel Noriega. But today, the first name that comes to mind, is busting George Bush Jr., first at the polls in 2004, then at the 9-11 trials.

Here’s a sampler by Jonathan Vankin. The author wrote this back when Iran-Contra drug dealing was merely risqué. Now it’s taboo, made a crime by Bush’s whim and punishable by Ashcroft’s discretion.

EXCERPT:

… To comprehend the government’s role in cocaine traffic, (Manuel) Noriega is useful as a kind of focal point. He was on the payroll of the CIA at the same time he worked for the Medellin Cartel for four million dollars per month. The Medellin Cartel is the Columbian cocaine syndicate, responsible for most of the cocaine that enters the U.S.A.

Noriega was also connected to George Bush (Senior), and through Bush to Oliver North. They used Noriega as a conduit for getting arms to the contras.

Bush, North, and other government insiders at the CIA and the National Security Council (which under Reagan got heavily into covert operations) most likely knew about Noriega’s involvement with drugs. Revelations about Noriega, and about direct contra and CIA involvement with cocaine smuggling, found their way into public record via a subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, chaired by John Kerry.

In 1986, Senator Kerry received information that the Costa Rican branch of a Miami-based shrimp company Ocean Hunter, widely regarded as a drug-running front, had received checks for more than $200,000 dollars from the U.S. government. The money was part of the “humanitarian aid” allocated for the contras by Congress. Wondering why the cash was channeled to this shrimp-and-dope outfit, Kerry went to the FBI asking for an inquiry. Instead, the FBI investigated Kerry himself.

SNIP…

But wait, it gets better!

According to the FBI reports, North asked the FBI to investigate Kerry, to find links between the Massachusetts senator and the Nicaraguan Sandinista government. The investigation was reportedly initiated by a crack FBI counterintelligence group usually employed to track foreign agents in the United States.

SOURCE: Jonathan Vankin. Conspiracies, Cover-Ups and Crimes: Political Manipulation and Mind Control in America, Paragon House, New York, pp. 163–164 (1991):

Now, for someone to bring out the heavy artillery, there must have been several highly placed people who were — and I will vote still are — mighty scared of what Sen. Kerry might have to say as president. This person’s Dim Son may also want to hide when Kerry starts looking into 9-11 and the events leading up to the worst day in our nation’s history.

BTW: What's your horse done? Compared to Kerry, probably not much.

[StopTheMorans]

14. used to be a Kerry fan,

awhile back, but got sick of defending statements he made that infuriated me. I finally got sick of it, and my mantra since then has been: What has he done for us lately? Has he fought the BFEE lately? I can't live with someone's past accomplishments justifying the fact that they have done many things that I have agreed with in the present. That's one of the main reasons I jumped ship (and, the fact that as hard as I tried, I could never get even remotely excited about Kerry). Just my two cents.

[Octafish]

22. Gee. Kerry's got an 18-year Senate record as a Liberal Democrat.

John Kerry has worked diligently for Liberal and progressive causes his entire Senate career, from civil rights and a woman's right to choose to environmental causes and national energy policy. He's also earned a reputation for going after the bad guys and there's no indication he will let up, as evinced by his efforts during the corporate corruption scandals — efforts stymied "for the good of the country" by the likes of fellow DEMs Joe Lieberman and Tom Daschle.

Please check out Kerry's Senate or campaign web sites. You'll see him hammering Bushco 24/7. It's not his fault the media don't cover what he says and does. OTOH, the media trip over themselves covering everything Dean says. Big blogging difference.

With all DU respect, DU Friend stoptheinsanity, you might want to check out:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

http://kerry.senate.gov/

For an impartial profile:

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/



Check out the skipper, President Kennedy.
Family friend, young John Kerry, is on the left,
scanning the horizon, looking ahead.
It's a trait of his and all great leaders.

[StopTheMorans]

30. with all due appreciation, DUfriend Octafish

I was a HUGE Kerry backer from the middle of last summer until roughly April (was a dual Kerry-Dean fan for the period from Jan.-April). I read all I could on him, his record, and his bashing of BFEE (including the more recent Globe 7 part series and all of his comments that appear on page 17 or wherever they are buried bashing BFEE). I like Kerry, do not despise him like many here, however, I do not like him as a candidate. I probably have as much or more info on him as you do, I just do not feel that the man would be the best candidate for the Democratic nomination for president this year. Just my opinion, I'm entitled to it, right:)?
on edit: kan't spell

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

42. What a cool picture. Sure does beat Georgie down on the pig farm.

Dean and Kerry both have different strengths they can make good use of. As long as we don't end up with Lieberman, we will get a strong candidate.

[blm]

16. Yes, but this is why the BFEE is desperate for Kerry to lose

in the primary. You think evil men like this would NOT stoop to interfere with the Democratic primary if it keeps the public from what Kerry can expose about them with the whole world watching? Forget it. They have their corporate media whores doing their job. Dean gets most of the media oxygen. Kerry, Kucinich, Gep and anyone who can REALLY hurt them are on IGNORE.

[Andy_Stephenson]

21. blm...Kerry has had his chance to sing for quite some time

he hasn't. There is no indication he will. So long Kerry. Better luck next time. Buh Bye

[blm]

45. Baloney. This is all connecting NOW to 9-11 and

what is happening in Iraq. Before he was talking and few would LISTEN. Post 9-11 people can see how it all connects much easier but, Kerry needs the focus on him and Bush to do it.

But, if you want to let it play out the way the BFEE wants...GO AHEAD. But, your big heart won't save you. Your patriotism should be AGAINST the BFEE.

[Andy_Stephenson]

47. My patriotism is AGAINST the BFEE.

and those that enable it.

[sangh0]

63. I suspected you weren't being honest

when you started a thread calling for more understanding and less dissension. Now, you're right back to sloganeering

[Andy_Stephenson]

86. Shang0

My position has never changed. What I am stating is fact Patriot Act, War, Homeland gestapo. Did Kerry vote no on these? If so please direct me to the appropriate spot. I only dissent with Kerry on 3 votes. Nothing more nothing less. But this stance applies to any Republican or Democrat that voted for them. How can I make myself any clearer. ANYONE that voted for those three acts crossed my line in the sand. Calling John Kerry an Enabler is absolutely truth. John Kerry helped to enabled Bush to wage war. Kerry enabled BFEE in the guise of John Ashcroft to abuse our rights. Voted on a bill he admitted he didn't read. And finally, he enabled the BFEE to create the biggest "domestic security" apparatus since the NGVD and the KGB. Which is designed to keep them secure from you. Now where in there am I "sloganeering"? Looks to me like I am stating fat.

Then tells us to "get over it". (words the Republicans used re 2000). Then says he does not support gay marriage. This is particularly egregious to me as I am gay, and that issue hits home. So tell me again why I should vote for him in the primary? Come up with a slogan I can sink my teeth into. Here are a few but they will ring hollow.

John Kerry President Defender of liberty. ooops nope not that one

John Kerry "Peace is first"

[sangh0]

108. So what?

I said nothing about changing you position.

It's about changing the tone, something you said you would like to see happen, but sadly, something you're not about to do yourself.

[Andy_Stephenson]

143. My tone has changed.

I didn't call him a "Skull and boner wank boy"

[blm]

72. Then why do you blame Kerry

when the Senate leaders kept him OFF the BCCI panel when his investigations proved to be too probing, and Kerry himself was considered too hot?

Why blame Kerry when his investigations forced indictments of Bush cronies who Poppy was forced to pardon to keep them from testifying?

You blame Kerry because it fits your predetermined mindset that cares not for actual facts.

[TLM]

88. This is not about BCCI...

it is about why Kerry is still being silent about this info you claim he has... and why he'd vote for the war resolution knowing what you claim he knows.

From the looks of things, Kerry is covering for his frat brother.

[blm]

127. You're talking shit and you know it.

BCCI was not DROPPED by Kerry and if you had any clue about the facts behind it you would know that. But...you don't.

[sangh0]

135. TLM only knows shit

TLM even claimed that there was nothing wrong with Dean's SS remark, even though Dean himself apologized for his mistake

[salin]

77. better yet - he has the pieces to connect what is going on now

to iran contra - which the congressional powers that be backed away from as they saw the scope - for fear of tearing apart the country so soon after watergate. We NOW see what was wraught.

As I say many times - I am as of yet undecided.

But one big thing in Kerry's favor (in my mind) is his lack of PAC funding, his proving willingness to fight the Bushco (even if imo he waivered to cautiously on the iraq vote), and his first hand knowledge of the WHOLE ugly iran contra/bcci mess - and if in power could conduct all of the investigations into todays current escapades - knowing where these folks are linked to the last batch of skeletons. And having the knowledge of what happened when others backed off or were forced to back off the last time - he just might have the courage to not back away this time. Then... bye bye neocon entrenched power. That is a big, big plus for Kerry, in my book.

[TLM]

84. Kerry voted for what is happening in Iraq...

you still won't answer this... If Kerry knew some dirt on the BFEE, why the fuck would he vote for the patriot act and the iraq war, knowing how the BFEE abuses their power?

Kerry would have the focus on him were he speaking out against Bush, but he has spent the last 3 years kissing W's butt and voting for W's bills like the no child left behind act.

And why is it that Kerry can't come out and connect the dots today... right now. He could call a press conference this afternoon and get plenty of press to drop some BFEE bombshell.

So why doesn't he do it?

Do we have to support him in order to earn the privilage of his telling us the truth?

[molly]

36. Jerry Nachman is endsoring Dean and for the life of me

I can't figure out why all this conservative media whores have jumped on the Dean wagon :think: :shrug:

[TLM]

90. Because they are whores... they go where the money is.

and the money is where the people are, and the people are behind Dr. Dean.

How much money do you think Time and Newsweek made off those Dean issues? Dean is gettign amazing support, and the media is playing catch up.

Understand what a whore is... money is their driving force. If they can make more money covering Dean, than covering Kerry or Kucinich, they will. If they make more money backing a dem, than a republican, they will.

DEan understands the media, and he has used the net to get his message out regardless of the media. All the media is doing is boosting Dean;s name recognition.

[oasis]

138. Nachman's offers a "flea vote" to give himself "liberal creds" after

his Whorendous behavior in trashing Democrats.

[Parche]

81. Kerry

Will win next year, he has not yet begun to fight

I dont know why some Dean people feel the need to do infighting

[TLM]

95. He has not yet begun to fight... that's the problem.

the fight is here and now, and Kerry is sitting on his ass acting like he is entitled to the nomination... after voting for half the shit Bush sent through congress.

[TLM]

82. What's stopping Kerry? If he knows all this stuff about the BFEE

then why is he being silent? Why is he voting to give Bush the power to take over Iraq? Why is he supporting the patriot act?


Are you actually saying Kerry is sitting on knowledge of criminal acts by Bush, in order to use that knowledge as leverage to get votes... IOW vote for me and I'll tell you what I know about Bush?

To me that is disgusting. If he knows something and is sitting on it for political advantage, then he is an accessory to Bush crimes.

[blm]

129. Duh...Dean gets all the attention now

because the BFEE doesn't WANT Kerry to get the attention that comes from being the OTHER candidate in the general election.


Kerry NEVER sat on information, and in fact, almost everything that we DO know about the BFEE has come from Kerry's investigative work.

Kerry has Rand Beers, Gary Hart and others working with him putting pieces together that have to do with yesterday and today. BushInc knows this.

[Andy_Stephenson]

144. Why did he hire New World Order types for his campaing?

If he is not into the NWO himself?

[blm]

146. So Gore's people are NWO?

Puhleeze.

[Andy_Stephenson]

157. No Kery's people are NWO

I have gary hart on video endorsing the NWO...want to see it?

[blm]

169. Order...not BFEE imperialism.

Big difference. Pouring money into education, healthcare and agriculture to keep religious fundamentalism from taking hold is HARDLY the same as BFEE imperialism.

[TLM]

78. Kerry's investigation was shades of the warren commission...

more ass covering than ass kicking.


And once again I have to ask how the hell a guy with all this knowledge of how criminal the Bush cabal is, would vote to grant those same bastards the authority to take over Iraq?

He was either complicit or a cowardly little political opportunist who refused to stand up to the Bush's even knowing what he knew about their capacity for criminal acts and abuse of power.

[Punkingal]

11. In your dreams.....

he is the next POTUS.

[blm]

12. Why? Beacuse the CORPORATE MEDIA WANT HIM TO?

He hasn't even STARTED to campaign, while the media and Dean have been in overdrive for 7 months.

Dean should be declared the winner any day now.

Jeez....how old are some of you?

[Andy_Stephenson]

28. No...I'd like to see him drop out as well

but then you knew that. BTW I do have a deal with Will Pitt re Kerry. I just hope I don't have to follow through. So the latest poll numbers are good news to me.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=729

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

29. You keep saying this but the facts don't support you.

Kerry has spent $1M more than Dean.


Dean

Total Receipts: $10,547,980
Total Spent: $4,144,109
Cash on Hand: $6,403,871
Debts: $321,826
Date of last report: June 30, 2003


Kerry

Total Receipts: $16,028,266
Total Spent: $5,100,458
Cash on Hand: $10,927,807
Debts: $178,662
Date of last report: June 30, 2003


http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/summary.asp?ID=N00000245



Edited to add: Kerry won't be dropping out anytime soon and he still has a fighting chance for the nomination.

[blm]

41. Dean doesn't HAVE to spend more money.

The corporate press has been pushing him for 7 months now.

[indigo32]

43. Have you READ anything they've been saying about him

NO they don't like him... they like a good story though... and he's giving em one.

[blm]

73. Let's see...only since early 2002.

When he was running AWAY from the left. Then the antiwar movement grew and he attacked other candidates as "Bushlite" so the press LOVED that, implying that HE was the more liberal antiwar candidate that they were promoting. How much money did he raise after that? How much press and money did Kucinich get for actually BEING the liberal antiwar candidate?

[TLM]

105. Bull BLM...

First off once again cite any time Dean claimed he was anti-war.

The media tried to tar Dean as an anti-war liberal, to cast him down with Kucinich. However Dean stood up and pointed out that he was not anti-war, he was anti-war for no damn good reason and anti-war based on lies and bullshit.

Kucinich is anti-war, period, and most people do not want that. That's why the media first tried so hard to make Dean look like a Kucinich clone.

And Dean used the net to get his message out to the people without the media spin, and it worked. He got huge support because of that, not because all his supporters are stupid idiots who have somehow been fooled into thinking Dean is more liberal than Kucinich or that Dean is anti-war period.

Your whole argument seems to be that dean supporters are just too stupid to know they should be supporting Kerry. When the truth is most Dean supporters would vote for Kerry, but because of his support for the war and the no child left behind act and the patriot act, he is a second or third choice in the primary.

Dean wasn't afraid to stand up to Bush, and to the Dems who rolled over for him... no was he afraid to call our own crew out on things like letting insistence on perfection prevent progress.


Now Dean has blown past the media and they are trying to play catch up.

[indigo32]

114. Couldn't have said it better TLM

any ultra-liberal labels given to Dean were NOT meant to help him.
And yes Kerry is about 3rd on my list.

[blm]

125. BULL. The media KNEW that antiwar was popular

because they did everything they could to make it unpopular. Why didn't they talk about Kucinich's stands which were more dramatic and newsworthy than Dean's?

[indigo32]

134. Don't make me laugh

You and I both knew how the war was polling before it started and during major hostilities. Please don't act like Dean isn't taking any stances that require some backbone. It's very disingenuous. As far as DK goes, unfortunately he just isn't taken seriously.

[blm]

149. BEFORE the war...

BEFORE the war when the antiwar movement was GROWING and most people here at DU were complaining that the media wouldn't give the protest rallies much attention. YET, they always managed to find time to note that Dean was a staunch antiwar liberal, which took attention AWAY from Kucinich and $$$$ into Dean's campaign.

[indigo32]

155. I think it's great

that Dennis did what he did. I was protesting last summer (yes we had weekly protetsts), last fall and last spring... in some very cold weather, and so on. But I thnk you are wrong when you imply Dean said stuff against the war for political expediency. That's just silly, yes the anti-war movement was very strong and growing... but it was NOT the prevailing view, and the media only meant to hurt in calling him anti-war. Today they still make sure to point out every flaw they can find in his campaign. The current vogue is that his supporters are all white birkenstock wearers. But thats just this weeks vogue. Anyway... I do appreciate that in some respects any publicity is good publicity. Why won't they mention Dennis Kucinich? You tell me? But don't tell me about some pro Dean conspiracy... cuz it's BS...

[blm]

170. Howard Fineman.

You can have him.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

141. Poll data..........Read it and weep:

"All in all, considering the costs to the United States versus the benefits to the United States, do you think the war with Iraq was worth fighting, or not?"

.................Worth Fighting Not WorthFighting No Opinion

8/20-24/03...........57 ...............37............ 5
7/9-10/03........... 57 ...............40............ 3
6/18-22/03.......... 64 ...............33 ............3
4/27-30/03.......... 70 ...............27 ............4

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm


I think bullshit has been fairly called.

[blm]

147. I'm talking about back in the fall and

before the war started the antiwar rallies and the polls were growing against the war. The media was trying to downplay their importance.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

167. The big protests were in February.

At least the 75,000 strong one that I went to was.


Am I missing something?

[blm]

171. The media started focusing on Dean then, yet

it was Kucinich that was speaking at the rallies. Considering that they were almost the same in the polls, then why was Dean getting the play for HIS perceived antiwar stance when DK was up on a stage in front of over a million with HIS actual antiwar stand?

Dean's support started to take hold at that crucial time and rarely was his position scrutinized in the media. I think it goes beyond just lazy reporters.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

61. Who should the press cover?

The guy drawing thousands to his rallies?

Or the guys/gals drawing 60 people?

The media hasn't been "pushing" Dean, his effective campaign has "pulled" the media to cover him.

I guess anyone getting press is a whore, in your opinion. If Kerry stops "pacing himself" and takes the lead in the polls and draws larger crowds than anyone else and gets the commensurate coverage, will he be a whore, too?

Just wondering.

[blm]

75. Early on, Kucinich and Dean were in similar positions,

the difference being that while Kucinich was actually SPEAKING OUT at antiwar rallies in front of millions of people and offering legal efforts to stop the war, the press had no interest in telling the American people those facts. Dean was being promoted by the press as the liberal antiwar candidate when he was NEITHER liberal or antiwar and would not support the rallies or the legal efforts. The MONEY FOLLOWED the package the press sold.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

83. Has Dean done anything right, in your opinion?

If you want examples of Dean speaking out against the war before it started, I'll give them to you. If you want examples that Dean is indeed a Liberal(Gasp!), I'll give them to you. I know you've seen all the material before, though. After all, you have 15,000+ posts to your credit; I can't believe that you haven't been exposed to the information before. I'll repeat my question.

Who should the press cover?

The guy drawing thousands to his rallies?
Or the guys/gals drawing 60 people?

Here's another you haven't answered yet:

If Kerry were the one getting the media, would he be just as undeserving of the attention as Dean? Or is Kerry a "special case" that shouldn't be subject to the same standards.

The last question is particularly valid because you keep saying that Kerry is "pacing himself" and will eventually emerge as the nominee and, quote "Dance on Dean's political grave." unquote. If Kerry does this then is he going to be being pushed by the corpoate media? Will the money then be following the "package" that the press sold?


Just wondering.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

89. yep exactly right

Kucinich was doing the work, while Dean was getting the money - then the corporate press hopped all over Dean. If you look at the differences in their platform it's obvious why the corporate media supports Dean.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

98. No one is arguing that Dean is to the left of Kucinich.

Also, no one is arguing that Kucinich doesn't represent a threat to the corpocracy.

What is being argued is that Dean's success is a media conspiracy. Contrast the numbers between the number of people showing up at the camapaign events since the process started. 30,000+ people showed up at Dean's last three major rallies combined. Don't you think that that is news? If not, why not?

The only way to support your conspiracy theory is that the Corp. Media got behind Dean from the get-go and pushed him to the top of the heap. The problem is that the reasons non-Dean supporters give for his not being electable (small state, etc..) are the same reasons why the Corp. Media wouldn't get behind him. If you go back to his early press coverage, you'll see that his candidacy was written off from the get-go. It was John Kerry who was portrayed as the heir apparent, by this same Corp. Media. You can't have it both ways. Sorry.

[TLM]

113. Didn't you read the thread... those 30,000 people

are all brain dead corporate stooges who are only supporting Dean because they are like the Manson family cult.


See what these folks don't get is that the media tried to paint Dean as an anti-war super liberal as an attack... not as a promotion. They wanted to sweep Dean down into the same dustbin as Kucinich.

But Dean was smart enough to use the net and the meetups to get his message out despite the media spin. No Dean supporter that I know thinks Dean is more liberal than Kucinich... the fact he is more to the center than Kucinich is exactly why Dean has a better shot at winning than Kucinich.

People did not flock to Dean because they were pushed there by the media presenting Dean as an anti-war liberal. Most, like me, flocked to Dean after we saw Dean speaking on the net and at meetups and in person. Dean was against this war, and against the reason for this war... not against war in general. I liked that. Dean was not afraid to call the pink tutu dems on rolling over on the no child left behind, the patriot act, the iraq war etc. I liked that. Dean was not afraid to stand up to Bush when guys like Kerry were covering their political ass and voting with W. I liked that.

I find it amusing that BLM and other Dean bashers can say in one breath that Dean was running from the left, then say that he was pretending to be liberal and anti-war to steal away support that Kucinich somehow owns. Dean has been Dean, he has expressed his positions regardless of the spin the media tried to put on them or the pigeonhole the media or Kerry's DLC tried to put Dean in as some far out leftist.

And that is why Dean is winning.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

118. That explains why all the pictures I took in Seattle look like this:

[Sterling]

162. I take one exception.

"They wanted to sweep Dean down into the same
dustbin as Kucinich."

Lets be honest, they are still attempting to sweep everyone who thinks like us down that dustbin. Dean, DK, anyone who was against the war for any reason got and still gets the treatment from the whores.

Lets not push DK to the fringe and say he was the only target. The fact is the whore spin did not stick to the movement, period. We are now watching the media re-align itself to stay relevant.

I like DK and Dean and think both camps are drifting into an alternate reality in an effort to push their guy. Lets not forget all the people who are against the crusade are on the same team

Having said that Kerry is not on our team.

[TLM]

101. THat is such sour grapes BLM....

the media has mostly ignored Dean until he started gettign major crowds and major donations. THen they started paying attention.

Dean built his huge grass roots network without the benefit of the media or the name recognition that guys like Kerry have. Dean started from way behind Kerry and has blown past him, despite Kerry spending a million more than Dean.

Now that the media is catching up, and Dean;s name recognition is growing, so is his support.

While Kerry sits on his ass...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

168. The Grasshopper and the Ant.

[GalleryGod]

57. Roger,that! Apparently there are a plethora of posters who haven't

Tasted the bad coffee in Nashua,Madison,nor Iowa City:dunce:

[TLM]

97. WHat's he waiting for?

"He hasn't even STARTED to campaign, while the media and Dean have been in overdrive for 7 months."

Dean has been fighting for almost a year... while Kerry has done nothing but voting for W's bills and telling democrats to "get over it."

[blm]

131. Funny, Carville disagrees with you.

He said that Kerry was the only one who spoke out against Bush SUBSTANTIVELY. He said so last December when people like you were crying that "No Dem speaks out against Bush"...just like the media wanted.

And who has been tougher than Kucinich as an antiwar candidate? He even submitted legal papers against it. Spoke in front of millions at antiwar rallies, and the media did not find that newsworthy.

[Andy_Stephenson]

161. blm he cannot have it both ways.

he cannot speak out against the war after he voted for it. I Kerry with his vote put him squarely in the prowar camp yes or no? Or are we just in a "police action"? Either way, Kerry ignored his constituents. If, as a Senator, he ignores completely the counsel of those he represents. How can I trust him as President? Why would I trust him as President? But you can bet that somewhere...he is making money off this fiasco. I bet you a Subway sandwich.

[blm]

172. That's GOP spin.

And full on BULLSHIT. That's what the Bushies say to marginalize whatever is said against them. THEY won't tell you that Kerry and others forced them to the UN and prevented Bush from invading Syria and Iran, either.

Are you pushing for Henry Waxman to NOT investigate Bush's war actions because HE voted for the Iraq resolution?

[Andy_Stephenson]

173. Is Kerry pushing for an investigation?

has he got any remorese at all over his patriot act vote?

Is he ready to stop Homeland Gestapo yet?

No? Then it is all just flash and nothing else.

[poskonig]

148. You have gone off the deep end with the corporate media conspiracy stuff.

The mediawhores calling Dean "McGovern" and "Mondale" daily is being in overdrive for us?

Get real.

Dean's power comes from organizing support, raising money, and giving simple and focused messages.

[blm]

151. Mediawhores reported that DEMOCRATS called him that.

They themselves didn't.


So, I guess you don't need to bother Fineman and Luntz anymore now they are on your team. Guess I'll stick to trusting people likeTed Rall and Aaron MacGruder.

[roughsatori]

13. Your post discredits whoever you are supporting

You could argue Clark is already canceled out since Kerry is a known Democratic Primary Candidate who is a Veteran and has more name recognition then Clark.

[TLM]

116. Don;t you have to enter the race first

before you can drop out?


When Clark decides to run, and says what party he is a member of, let me know. Until then he is irrelevant.

[roughsatori]

137. I agree with you

I am not a Clarkite.

[JI7]

17. kerry isn't only about the military

kerry isn't only about the military. he has worked on hate crimes, gays in the military (which clark use to oppose until recently), environmental issues. he has a long list of accomplishments including the military.

[Andy_Stephenson]

20. This is great news!

"He is in free fall in New Hampshire. He trails Dean by 18% now."

Outstanding!

[newyorican]

24. I don't take sides...

I prefer to direct my ire at conservatives.

[Zolok]

25. Kerry is formally announcing next week....

He isn't gonna win unless he beats the field...that is all I know.
We'll see what everyone has on election night.

MASSACHUSETTS FIRST
MASSACHUSETTS LAST
MASSACHUSETTS ALWAYS
KERRY IN 2004
HIS HOUR HAS STRUCK!
OUR TIME HAS COME!!

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[molly]

34. ROFLMAO!!!!

he's got more money than any candidate - and hasn't even announced yet! He has a job - he has had cancer surgery. You couldn't be more wrong.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. I'd love to see it, but I don't think so.

IMO, Kerry and the DLC are hoping that Clark will enter the race and split the left/anti-war vote, leaving the right/moderate/pro-war voters to decide the outcome.

I don't think the strategy will work. Indications are that the left vote is strong enough to carry either Dean or Clark through.

As the mess in Iraq continues deteriorate the voters want a change from BushWarInc not a warmed over version of the same.

It may come down to a Dean vs Clark contest.

Fine with me, either one can get my vote.

[MaineDem]

38. I highly doubt this

Nope, not gonna happen.

[indigo32]

40. LOL

not bloody likely!

[ibegurpard]

44. I wouldn't bet on that scenario

even if there was no money involved.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. I Just Want To Give Kerry His Props

He has a higher lifetime ADA score than Ted Kennedy.

www.adaction.org

One bad vote doesn't define an entire man's career.

I'll support any Dem that emerges victorious from the primaries but this candidate bashing is quite pathetic....

[Andy_Stephenson]

50. One bad vote doesn't define an entire man's career.

no but 3 important ones do. What has Kerry done for me lately that I should vote for him?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. I'm Not A Kerry Supporter

I'm just impressed by the fact that he has a 99% ADA lifetime voting score.

Let's pull one vote out of the air....

He voted against the horrible Defense Of Marriage Act whiile many liberal "heroes" of this board voted for it.

I think that vote is as revealing as the Iraq War Vote. Denying fundamental human rights to a whole class of people is as equally odious as supporting a controversial war.

And Kerry deserves props for being one of less than a dozen Democratic senators who voted against the Defense of Marrage Act.

[Andy_Stephenson]

56. Yes but on the same hand

He voted for the rights grabbing patriot act and the homeland gestapo. Pales in comparison to DOMA...besides was it a week or so ago he came out agianst legalized gay marriage? *yawn*

[blm]

79. You let Dean be for patriot act

and homeland security with NOTHING in his 11 year record that points to anything BUT that he would be for both.

Hell, Dean brought up the idea of curtailing civil rights THREE DAYS AFTER 9-11. No demagogue he, heh?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. THE PATRIOT ACT PASSED 98-1

Liberal icons like Ted Kennedy, Paul Wellstone, and Tom Harkin voted for it.....

The Homeland Security Act passed overwhelmingly too!

[Andy_Stephenson]

145. Your absolutely right

and every vote for the patriot act was a stupid misguided vote. Both my senators voted for it...guess what? They never get my vote again. As I said Kerry isn't the only one not getting my vote.

[TLM]

121. More BLM-BS.

Dean has repeatedly said he is against the unconstitutional parts of the patriot act and would repeal them. He's also been clear in his support of homland defense being focused on first responders, not violations of our civil liberties.

And he is 100% against the victory act.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

128. yeah, Dean's always against the bad parts!

He loves NAFTA, but is against the bad parts. He loves HS, but not the bad parts. He likes the Patriot Act, except for the bad parts. This is starting to sound familiar...

[dfong63]

52. my prediction: he'll shake up his campaign team

... when a serious candidate gets in trouble, s/he usually doesn't just drop out, s/he first tries to (in effect) shift the blame onto subordinates. sometimes it works. if they drop out without trying this tactic, you can infer that they weren't very committed to running in the first place.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Bob Shrum' s Track Record

I think he ran Ted Kennedy's 1980 race for the White House. Steve Smith , EMK's brother in law might have been the titular head of the campaign.

He ran Gore's 00 capmpign.

He's running Kerry's 04 campaign.

He doesn't seem like the Bill Waslh of politics.

[sendero]

59. Thoughts on Kerry....

...Kerry is not my first choice but I could easily vote for him. but I really don't think I'm going to get that chance.

Let's put aside his record, his accomplishments and focus on who he *is*. I've only heard him speak a couple times and IMHO his voice, oratory skills, etc are not there. I don't care if you are FDR and Kennedy rolled into one - nobody is going to become president of this media-saturated country if they cannot deliver a fiery/charismatic speech of some sort.

I know what lots of you are thinking - "well, how did Bush* get there". There are two answers. One, he didn't. Two, given a speech wirtten by someone else that he has practiced a hundred times, Bush* can be convincing in a smarmy sort of way.

I don't dislike Kerry, although he did piss me off temporarily with that "get over it" talk. But I really don't think his campaign is going anywhere, I haven't heard anything like a message coming from there.

I'm not trying to bash anyone, these are opinions that I came by honestly that you might find unconvincing. That's ok. To be honest, I don't care that much if we get Dean, Kerry or Clark. They are all good men who will make a good, maybe great president. If Kerry becomes the nominee, I will send him money, just like I will for *anyone* that gets the nom, because at that point we have to pull together and get Bush* out of there. And for once, I am optimistic that we can do just that!

[Zolok]

60. Gunga Dean...

with his face on every magazine....
:)
Dean to Surgery
Kerry to Power!
NO PASARON!
:)
WWW.CHIMESATMIDNIGHT.BLOGSPOT.COM

[salin]

64. Kerry has much more

broad support, grassroots and formal, access to money, and a lot of people holding him - if not as the first place candidate - their second place candidates. Campaigns are funny - momentum can change quickly. He has the sustainability to go much further than some other candidates - and running at number two - knowing winds can change - should keep him in the race for quite some time. And it may just pay off in the end. Far too soon to tell.

[GreenArrow]

67. Kerry's not going to drop out anytime soon

this is a classic turtle and the hare scenario. We'll just have to wait and see who crosses the finish line first. Clark, maybe?

[Yupster]

68. My guess is

Kerry at leaast tries to go negative on Dean before throwing in the towel. If he can eliminate Dean, he would become the favorite.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

69. god i hope not....i was hoping that holy joe would tho

[CMT]

70. No he has no reason to drop out

it is still five months until the first votes in NH--a lifetime in politics.

[molly]

71. BTW - why would someone in Canada care to start a flamewar?

[Tinoire]

96. Canadians for Clark - As sweet as maple syrup

This is the 2nd Canadian Clark supporter in less than 6 hours.

How flattering the amazing interest and dedication to backing a certain candidate while marginalizing other ones.

[molly]

119. What possible interest would they have ?

[Tinoire]

123. Can't be the Health Care :) n/t

[West Coast Democrat]

87. Didn't Pres. Clinton lose in New Hampshire?

I think New Hampshire is made to be much too important. It's a state full of Republicans anyway.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. Clinton, Papa Bush, Baby Bush , and Walter Mondale

all lost NH.

It can mean everything or it can mean cacka.

[molly]

120. You're right - I forgot about that!

[tom_paine]

91. What a surpise, Jeter...a candidate bashing thread.

You know, if I didn't know any better I say you were a (redacted) in a (redacted) like the (redacted) Foundation or the (redacted) Enterprise Institute.

But of course I know better than to think something like that of you.

[West Coast Democrat]

99. I'm sick of people who start these threads all the time

If Kerry loses in New Hampshire, he won't just drop out.

How well do you really know Jeter?

[tom_paine]

112. How well do we truly know anyone who posts here?

Unless you've met them personally at a DU gathering.

Oh, we got trolls and trolls. Rove and the Busheviks have plenty of money to buy all the pimple-faced Brownnshirts they want.

And www.technomania.com shows what we already know. That Totalitarian Monsters know better than anyone how to create automatons and Brownshirts, and know very well how a few $$$$ can translate into power.

Trolls and trolls and trolls.

[corarose]

100. I will bet you $100.00 dollars that Kerry is our next President

:kick:

[Nederland]

102. Done

and bookmarked.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

111. Beat me to it.

Greedy bastard! :D

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

109. There's this nice bridge in Brooklyn you might be

interested in.

Where is Kerry to get the votes?

He's pissed off the left wing of the party - you know, the ones that turn out to vote.

He's looked at as one of those durn Yankee Libruls in the south.

If, on the off chance, he were to be nominated how could he possibly answer the fratboy emperor about Iraq, when the smirk says, "But, you voted FOR it senator?"

Now about that bridge...

[Tinoire]

124. Yeah but he's one of our own- even most of the die-hards like me

are willing to vote for him if he gets the nomination- bogeyman around the corner and all that you understand.


Kerry, despite his shameful stance on Iraq, is the most socially progressive after Kucinich & Sharpton with a track record to prove it.

How could a Democrat not vote for a Democratic war hero AND Progressive politician with such a verifiable record? Wouldn't make sense :shrug:

Besides, Kerry's sooooo cute ;) Those patrician good looks and bed-room eyes get to a girl every time ;)

[CWebster]

133. You mean how he jumped aboard chimp's bandwagon?

A Kucinich supporter impressed with a "Democratic war hero"... Wouldn't think y'all be impressed with someone who enlisted in 'Nam, came home to protest the war, signed on to the Chimp's sick fantasy of a military victory parade and now boasts every other word about what a real soldier boy he is.

Yuk.

"Bedroom eyes"? Can't hardly find them in that long drone of a face.

Zero charisma it is.

;-)

[indigo32]

153. Oh don't worry

I'll be happy to vote for him should he get the nod.

[Andy_Stephenson]

158. Do you have your glasses on girl

when your looking at him? Not being hateful here. But to me, he has about as much appeal as a bowl of escargot.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

163. Well, I have overlooked the appeal of being cute and

having bedroom eyes. But, if those were the crucial issues I'd have to throw my entire support to Carol Mosely-Braun who fills my criteria much more aptly than any of the other candidates.

In all seriousness, Kerry was my first choice before his warvote. I liked his stance and record on most of the issues. That vote, however, has cost thousands of lives. Something I'm unable, and unwilling, to overlook.

He may be one of "ours" but I'm not one of his.

[indigo32]

115. ummm I'll take that $100

though I am not in any way supporting the premise of this thread.

[WilliamPitt]

103. Dumbest. Thread. Ever.

[Tinoire]

126. Lol You haven't seen anything.Try being up at 3 AM for the real gems

Make sure you have about 4 DU windows open so you can watch the flurry of activity unfold before your very eyes.

You'll feel like Randle Patrick McMurphy in that group therapy scene where he was watching Nurse Ratched manipulate the patients and pit them up one against the other.

Commedia del Arte at its finest.

[molly]

130. OMG - 3am - that's almost the time I get up in the morning!

[Tinoire]

132. Yikes and that when I go to bed!

Think we could take shifts? lol

[Khephra]

140. You've missed a lot worse while you were on the road

However, I do think that the above comment comparing Dean supporters to the Manson Family does take the cake. I don't know...maybe the one I read that said Dean was a Hitlerian Fascist...there's so many to choose from these days.

[jos]

104. Not until after New Hampshire

He has plenty of money and why should he, polls can change.

If he finishes lower than second in Iowa and does not win New Hampshire, then I think he will drop out.

I think the first one to drop out will be Graham. Probably before the end of the year.

[CWebster]

117. Health issues?

the man just does not look good.

[Adjoran]

122. Of course Kerry isn't dropping out

Not with all the money he's raised, and the time and work invested in building a national organization.

BUT ~ this isn't "tortoise and hare" stuff. Kerry had the lead in NH, then it was close, now Dean is way ahead. These guys are not strangers to NH. Both of them, and Lieberman, have been heavy hitters in neighboring states for years.

Sure, people can and do change their minds up until the primary day. And most people certainly are not focused on the campaign yet. It still has to be seen as good news for Dean and very bad news for Kerry.

Gephardt MUST win Iowa in order to stay in the race. Kerry and Dean don't HAVE to win NH, but they each need to be no worse than a close second, or they lose a lot of credibility. Edwards MUST win SC or he's gone.

We have a drastically foreshortened primary season this time around, and the early contests are even more important than usual. So, while the new polls in NH won't kill Kerry's run, pretending they don't matter is just denial.

[JackSwift]

136. Nobody is dropping out before the first caucus

That would kill any future run. There's a long time for all of them to keep bashing Bush.

[indigo32]

159. "There's a long time for all of them to keep bashing Bush."

hear hear!!!

[oasis]

139. No quitter, Kerry is a 21st century gladiator, you gotta beat him to win.

[poskonig]

150. Kerry will drop out after he loses NH.

It is GAMEOVER for Team Kerry if they can't turn NH around.

[molly]

160. More obnoxious Dean bashing

take a look at post 110 - Clinton, Papa Bush, Baby Bush , and Walter Mondale (they all lost NH)

we've just begun to fight

on edit - you guys need to get a LIFE - you have turned everyone that would have supported you totally OFF!!!! Tell Joe Trippi to go fuck himself!

[poskonig]

164. You're just mad because your candidate is getting stomped.

And Kerry has spent more money than any other candidate, so don't give us the "we haven't begun to fight" whine.

You will be a Dean supporter. It is your destiny. :evilgrin:

[Uzybone]

152. more stupid Dem bashing

enabling Bush to hold on to power. Focus people focus!

[janekat]

156. let's stick together and unite....

like the Freepers do. That's why we lost the Senate and the Presidency. The Pubs do whatever their leaders tell them to do.

[janekat]

154. He comes off as too intelligent....

That's why he's not winning over many people other than East Coast elitists. It's the "Gore" syndrome.

[Hippo_Tron]

165. Kerry in my opinion is the front runner

While I consider Dean a serious candidate I don't think he's an electable candidate.

[quinnox]

166. I wouldn't get in the prognostication

business if I were you....