Woo Hoo! Ten Commandments moved from the rotunda!

[thom1102]

Take that Judge Moore, and your fundie freaks, too!

[bamademo]

1. The Alabama Crimson Tide has a cheer...

...which they use after they have defeated an opponant.

Hey Roy, Hey Roy...
We just beat the hell out of you.
Rammer Jammer, Yellow Hammer, Give them hell, Alabama.


:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[Jessamon]

2. I see nothing to celebrate

Sound advice--time-honored precepts for achieving a fulfilling life and society (The 10 Commandments) has been removed. Let's concentrate on getting rid of bad things in life, OK? Not the things that can only help people.
Furthermore, I strongly resent your term 'fundie freaks'. This is an insult to a lot of good people. I am not a Christian fundamentalist, I am a Catholic. And a lot of Catholics hate to see that monument go.

[CO Liberal]

3. It Never Should Have Been Put There

Objects like that belong in churches - not in courthouses.

As an ex-Catholic, I'm glad it's gone.

[StopTheMorans]

4. and a lot of people who respect the constitution

the separation of church and state, and the government not establishing a religion are glad to see it go.
on edit: I'm an ex-catholic as well, and couldn't be happier to see that obstruction of justice removed.

[LeftistGorilla]

5. hehehe...

I can't believe Americans have to go through this crap...
explan how these commandments apply to me (since I aint a Christian)

You shall have no other Gods before Me

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy

You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain

keep YOUR God to YOURSELF.....

[CanuckAmok]

28. Hey Neighbour, welcome to DU!

:hi: :Donut:

[LeftistGorilla]

59. Hay Canuck!

much Thanks!

[thom1102]

7. It's called the seperation of church and state...

and it is a fundamental tenent of of our government, and has no right being the center of focus in a government court building. If you need more of a reason, then try this: imagine that you are a Hindu, and you are going to appear before the court, and the first thing that you see when you walk into the court building is a TWO TON monument celebrating the tenents of Abrahamic religions. Do you really think that you can expect a fair hearing? If you want to celebrate these beleif's, you have a place to do that...it's called a church.

If you resent the term "Fundie freaks" then you are probably in the wrong place.

On edit: besides, he was ordered by the highest court in the land to remove the thing and he has refused to do so... thereby violating his oath (before God) to uphold the laws of the land, and exposing his hypocrisy.

[Coffee Coyote]

8. I am celebrating the First Amendment

Whatever your EMOTIONS are based on Gawd's Top 10 List, the establishment clause of the First Amendment (from the Top 10 List Our Rights Are Founded Upon) PROHIBITS THE GOVERNMENT ENDORSEMENT OF RELIGION. Period.

A courthouse is no place for religious instruction. Would you be so enthralled if a judge put a text from the KORAN in there??? Taliban, anyone??

If you're a christian, then you should know Jeezus himself preached the Sermon On The Mount, which negated the Top 10 with his own Top 2: Love god, and love your fellow humans. He discarded all those foolish laws and rules from the Old Testament.

The Top 10 doesn't work for all of us. Some Americans don't believe in a god or goddess, and some believe in multiple gods and/or goddesses. They are JUST AS MORAL AS YOU, and probably contribute far more to the general happiness of our society than you.

We celebrate the victory over fundie freakshows today and their trampling on OUR RIGHTS AS AMERICANS. :party:

[Skittles]

9. STOP IT

That piece of crap monumnet should NEVER HAVE BEEN THERE. Stick it in a CHURCH where it belongs.

[GOPisEvil]

10. The courthouse is a government building and as such, belongs to all...

...Alabamans, regardless of their religion (or choice not to practice). I believe that religious icons do not belong in government buildings.

Christians should heed the book of Matthew and do their praying behind closed doors.

spelling edit!

[Coffee Coyote]

15. yeah buddy!

Matthew 6:6! Always a good one to cite!

[GOPisEvil]

19. For those of you without your bibles...

Matthew 6:5-6 NKJV) "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. {6} "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

[rock]

11. The law was observed

So how did you arrive at "I see nothing to celebrate"?

[dixiechiken]

12. I, too, am Catholic ...

... at least that's how I was raised, and I can assure you that there are also a lot of Catholics who are happy as hell that it's gone. Our legal institutions are not and should not become places to exhibit the preferences of one man-made religious institution over any other ... there are churches for that express purpose, if I'm not mistaken.

[Section_43]

17. You can add a boatload of Episcopalians as well.

[Rainbowreflect]

13. Sorry Jessemon, but in this country we have seperation of

church and state. I am a Christian, but that monument should never have been put up in a public building. There are many good Americans that have different or no faith, that building is suppose to be for them as well. Keep your religion in your place of worship, in your heart, and in how you live your life, but keep it out of the government. I believe if most of these people would follow Christ's teaching a little more they would not feel the need to push their beliefs and their dogma on others.

[greatauntoftriplets]

16. I strongly recommend that you read....

...the Constitution of the United States -- re the separation of church and state -- before Ass-crack thoroughly trashes that part.

edited for punctuation.

[Coffee Coyote]

and for even more insight

read Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists, where he coined the term "a wall of separation between church and state".

[sujan]

32. you sure are a good catholic

Thank you for being such an inspiring example.

[Rabrrrrrr]

49. Personally, i think it's wonderful it's been removed

I don't want my chosen faith waterd down through jingoist nonsense stupid actions like a ten commandments monument.

All the idiots who claim the ten commandments are "just good for plain moral iving, what's the big deal, eh?" - why don't you read them?

If you read them, you'd realize there are many that ARE SPECIFICIALLY RELIGIOUS. And in that regard, they have no place in a courtroom, or any public display in this country. And no, our laws are not based on the ten commandments. They are based on "don't steal, don't lie, don't fool around", and that's it.

We have no LAW that says don't use the lord's name in vain. We have no LAW that says keep the sabbath holy. We have no law that says no graven images, and no other gods.

I thank God that we DON'T have laws like that, because when countries DO have laws like that, those countries commit terrible atrocities. Spain? Iraq? Iran? England? Early American history?

Think of the atrocities this country already committed and commits becuase of jingoistic Christian triumphalism, and how worse those would be if we didn't have some kind of check on the idiots.

No sir/madam, removing that monument is the RIGHT thing to do, and Christians should be CELEBRATING it's removal, not acting like their being persecuted because of it. And "historical relevance" be damned, because our founders wanted NOT any official religion, nor any official interpretation of Christianity. They saw the DANGER of forming a religious country.

[ChesWickatWork]

69. you lost me there

I thought you made some interesting points on another thread,(though you seem dogmatic and incapable of accepting other's POV) but you lost me with this one.
The court house is a building for all americans and unless that judge wants to put up other codes of ethics from other religions etc...then giving exclusive display to the 10C is unamerican.....besides the guy is a jerk to think that displaying the commandments is going to help people follow the law better. That is an example of the weakest kind of thinking which some Christians indulge.

I am going to watch you because I am not convinced you are who you say you are and we don't need someone preaching here, we get enough intolerant hot air from some of the anti-thiest types.

[RetroLounge]

78. Then a lot of catholics should be reading constitutional law

and put the bible down...

These people laying on the pavement and praying are FUNDIE FREAKS.

Most catholics I know understand that no one wants to delete the 10 commandments from their religion.

So just keep it the f*ck out of my life.

Go pray by yourself, no one else cares to watch you do it...

[CO Liberal]

152. It's a Hypocrite Convention!!!!

:-)

[Castilleja]

87. It did not belong there

Besides, you can always follow those precepts, just carry them with you in your mind and you will always have them. No need to erect slabs everywhere....

[damnraddem]

109. Look again. Those aren't the Catholic 10.

Number 4 is about graven images, and only one is about coveting. Moore is promoting a Protestant 10 as the State of Alabama's 10. And it sure isn't my agnostic 10 Suggestions.

[commander bunnypants]

6. Seperation of church and state

DDQM

[SiouxJ]

14. All I gotta say is

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: woo hoo!

:D

[Jessamon]

18. The 10 Commandments

are more of a historic tradition. They pretty much supersede the various religion sects since, being from Old Testament, so many faiths embrace them. But really, aside from religion, they are just good things for people to do. Not killing people, not screwing around with someone's spouse, taking a day off. These are great principals for the secular world as well.
In addition, our country, like it or not, was founded in a religious tradition. It is embedded in our founding culture. It's as ridiculous as trying to remove all references to 'Christmas' in the public schools. The 10 commandments are by now a world institution, kind of in the public domain. They supersede religion. It is a shame something good was removed.
As an aside, I noticed three rebuttals from 'ex-Catholics'. I find that rather telling. Are there any practicing Catholics out there who care to comment?

[Coffee Coyote]

20. but

Roy Moore's intent had NOTHING to do with "historic tradition", it had to do with PROSELETYZING. His agenda, and the agenda of christians like him, is to get all of America down on bended knee for their god.

Our country was NOT IN ANY SENSE FOUNDED IN THE RELIGIOUS TRADITION. Yes, many of the framers were men of faith, and some were deists (like Jefferson and Franklin), but they did NOT FOUND A THEOCRACY.

They founded a republic, with religious freedom for all, because they knew if fucksticks like Moore got their way, we'd have all the troubles and bloodshed of the European nations in our wake.

Whatever YOU think of the worth or "historic value" of the Ten Commandoes, they have NO PLACE BEING SANCTIONED in a court of law in our republic.

[Jessamon]

31. Let me tell you what happened in my daughter's school.....

She goes to a public school where the anti-God people have deemed that there will be no mention whatsoever of the word 'Christmas'. Instead it will be referred to as 'The Winter Holiday'. Christmas vacation was to be called 'Winter Break'. OK..So when the students got back from 'Winter Break', my daughter's class was studying black history and one of the topics was Kwaanza, the religious holiday that began in what? 1966 or so? One activity in their study of Kwanzaa was to light the candelbrum or minaret or whatever, with nine candles, one each day.
Well, I marched straight in to the principal's office and said no way. If my child can't hear the word Christmas, there was no way in hell she was going to light freaking Kwaanza candles. I was very vocal about my objections and the black community at the school became rather belligerent towards my child and her brother and us.
THIS is what sanctioned religious intolerance has brought us. I am just fine with talking about Kwanzaa, which of course, has some worthwhile points. But holidays in the Christian tradition, such as Christmas absolutely have a place in the public schools and public domain as well.

[GOPisEvil]

37. Your ignorance is appalling!

Why don't you do some research into what Kwaanza really is before "marching straight into the principal's office"?

[Coffee Coyote]

39. Why are we feeding this troll????

:-)

Kwanzaa is religious, and I am Skinner. :D

I guess the church/state issue is too hot-button for me to ignore.

[thom1102]

38. Kwanzaa, is not a religious holiday...

That is why it was being taught in school, so that people could have a further understanding of what these ceremonies are. It is called "winter break" because it occurs in the winter. What's the problem? Everyone knows what christmas is all about... it is forced on them starting from October on. Can you tell me what Kwanzaa, Hannakah, Ramadan, are all about? Don't you think it is important to have an understanding of the cultures that comprise our culture?

[Blue_Chill]

40. Exactly what I've been telling people

All religions that represent anything good (sorry satanists) should be represented in schools. Kids need to learn about eachother in order to grow up tolerant.

BTW - don't give me that shit about kwanza not being a religious holiday. Christmas has been secular for 20 years, unless you consider Santa overly jesus like.

[Coffee Coyote]

51. Satan is great

For mythical beings, he is one of the best. Even Milton recognized this. He brought knowledge to humans, and is the enduring mythical symbol of enlightened self-interest and defiance in the face of tyranny. Only medieval superstitious people think Satan or satanism is 'evil'.

[Blue_Chill]

55. Study it

or shut it.

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. You want to teach kids to chase after all that feels good at any cost? That is satanism. Teach your kids that dishonesty and integrity or moronic and that pleasure is all that counts.

pfffft

[Coffee Coyote]

57. mmmmmsatanlicious

:evilgrin:

Satan is cool.

[Blue_Chill]

62. Yeah that's great

I'm glad you love him. But my point was made, it's not something to teach kids. Study about it in college or highschool.

[Liberal Veteran]

85. You don't want kids to learn about satan, but...

You are okay with a God who murders thousands of men, women, and children in Sodom and Gammorah, kills the first born of all Egypt, and murders everyone but Noah's family in a great flood?

[Blue_Chill]

88. I would mind if I thought those were real events

and not just stories intended to teach a lesson. This debate is nonsense, satanism is the opposite of what is considered good parenting, period. One does not teach kids to lie cheat and steal so long as you do it for pleasure.

No morality only pleasure seeking.

[Liberal Veteran]

89. And you base this on your intense study of satanism?

Or what? Or is this your assumption that satanism is the exact opposite of everything you believe?

My point here is that for someone who so very often gets all bent out of shape at the slightest notion that someone is bashing your religion, you seem to have no problem bashing other people's religion.

[Blue_Chill]

93. This is based on conversations with satanist friends

and I'm not bashing anything. I'm being very clear that anyone who wishes to study or become a satanist have at it. But it is not something that I would teach a child nor would any mental health proffesional state it's a good thing for kids.

Also I have not said it is the opposite of Christian teaching. I don't think for example they are supposed to harm anyone.

[Trajan]

144. Typical ....

Blue_Chill (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-27-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #51

55. Study it


or shut it.

-snip-

Or 'Shut it' .... as in .... SHUT UP ....

As in "You may NOT speak" ....

As in "You voice must not be heard" ...

As in "I do not value YOUR opinion" ...

As in "MY opinion is all that matters" ...

AS in "I am superior in every way to all those who disagree with me" ...

Chill ? .... I think your wrong ....

[sujan]

145. it isn't the first time, is it?

[Coffee Coyote]

146. par for the course

It is the level of debate I expect from DU's not-so-closeted conservatives.

[arcane1]

96. Satan also called God out on his lies to Adam and Eve

and it turned out he was right

[Blue_Chill]

101. So send him a thank you card already

what are you waiting for!

[arcane1]

149. um, ok...

was your reply for a reason? Or just sarcasm?

:shrug:

[KinkyDem]

92. here's the problem with that

ask a southern baptist about catholicvs and they will tell you they are satanists.

Ask Jessamon about pagans and I'm sure he will confuse us with satanists. Satanists still consider the Bible the word of God, they just reject it.

If a Satanist student is present then you either acknowledge their faith as valid or you don't acknowledge any of them.

[Blue_Chill]

94. I would acknowledge it as valid

But I would not bring it up in class too often as they woul dhave to live with a stigma other kids would not understand. It is a religion based on principles not accepted in our culture. Such as it is good to lie to gain in life.

[KinkyDem]

100. Well...

Spare the rod and spoil the child...

You know what Christains in some sense support child abuse too...

I'm picking nits I know but do you see the point I'm trying to make?

Children will pick on other children. There is no way around that. Jews in Jewish schools make fun of each other based on how "Kosher" they are or aren't.

Children make fun of my son because he refuses the idea that there is only one god.

[Blue_Chill]

102. If your kid is being made fun of for that

It's because of two things

1- There is no lessons on eachothers religion that focus on positives thus allowing kids of fundies to hear more then their parents wild rantings

2- The teachers aren't doing their job.

BTW - Child abuse? lol. My dad had no rod with which to beat me with, but he had a look that could freeze flames that he would give me if I pissed him off. To this day I fear the look......

[noiretextatique]

95. kwanzaa is NOT a religious holiday

you should find out more about it before opining about it.

[CO Liberal]

46. Oh, Look - Another Christian Being Oppressed!!!!!

You don't know the MEANING of oppression.

[Blue_Chill]

50. Go tell that to the priests in China

Or those killed by Stalin. How about those in Africa getting slaughtered at the moment?

huh?

[CO Liberal]

66. I've Had It Up To HERE.......

With morons like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Cal Thomas, and others bitching and moaning about how Christians are being discriminated against.

Believe what you choose to believe - that's your right. But keep it in your church, and out of my face.

[Blue_Chill]

67. You telling me the examples I gave are bullshit

or just that you can't think outside of your US bubble? Save your "I've had it up to here" for someone that likes those idiots you mentioned. It seems the only argument you have is.....

Christians discriminated against? yeah right....

Screw facts or global situations, as long as you can stay in your little bubble and ignore evidence you'll be fine.

[CO Liberal]

155. We're Not Talking About the World, Blue_Chill

We're talking about one asshole judge in Alabama and the assholes who are supporting him as he DEFIES A LEGAL COURT ORDER.

All they time claiming that they're being persecuted because they're Christians. Bull shit. They're being put in their place because they're assholes.

[AntiCoup2K4]

97. Want proof that Christians are being discriminated against?

How about your own fucking God bashing bullshit posts?

And if that's not enough, how about the handful of assholes here who can't seem to do anything BUT piss all over other's beliefs.

It's every bit as fucked up as racism, homophobia, or any other prejudice, and perhaps you should remove your head from your ass long enough to realize that fact.

Equating every Christian with Pat Robertson is like equating every Muslim with Osama Bin Laden or every Jew with Ariel Sharon. :grr:

[Liberal Veteran]

105. Oh come now....

I think there is a big difference between being subjected to criticism of your sect of religion of being hurled to the lions for entertainment.

I am also one of those people who gets a little miffed at people in the US claiming they are so persecuted because they are Christians, when the fact is they just claim persecution because they aren't allowed to practice the tenets of their faith in every fucking public setting imaginable.

Like this ignorant stone worshipers in Alabama who vandalized a public building by illegally placing a 2 ton monument there in the dead of night like the criminals they were claiming this is religious persecution.

Or the person who claims they are persecuted because they aren't allowed to lead their class in prayer every day at school.

That's not persecution. It's public life in a diverse society where everyone doesn't share your particular mythological beliefs.

Christians are anything but persecuted in our society, but the way some of them act you would think we were rounding them up and placing them in concentration camps.

[Blue_Chill]

107. Why not on public land

why is the atheist way enforced on public land but not mine? Did no tax paying christian contribute to it in anyway?

Seperation of church and state is there to prevent anyone from being forced to worship, and to protect churches from being told what to do by goverment. It was never intended to force secularism on us.

[Rabrrrrrr]

115. "the atheist" way - that's your misperception

There is no "atheist way" that is being "enforced". What is being enforced, or should be enforced, is keeping specific religions from gaining time on the public dollar.

BIG difference between atheist and keeping religion away.

If there was an "enforced" "atheist way", then you would see things like the government officially saying there is no God, you'd see big signs in public places saying that religion is stupid, dumb, and irrelevant; you'd see REAL persecution of ANYONE with a religious belief.

Just because we're sayingthe government can't give priority to Christianity doesn't mean the government is pushing an atheist agenda.

It's clear as a bell, but so many people - especially the freepers and Christian Right - just can't seem to understand the difference between the government not sponsoring/favoring one religion over another and telling people they can't be religious.

[Blue_Chill]

Forced secularism

Is the rejection of all religion in public areas. I certainly don't see the big difference since words means shit to me. The goverment saying something means far less then what it does.

[sujan]

116. yep

time to bring in the pope to rule the US.

[Blue_Chill]

122. You probably do worry about such things.

lol :tinfoilhat:

[sujan]

126. using your logic

how long before we see crucifixion installed atop the white house. Roman catholic is the largest denomination in the US, so their taxes should go to fund things they like, say, moving the vatican establishment to the US, isn't that true?

[Blue_Chill]

129. Using your logic I'd be searched before entering a state park

to make sure nothing on me was at all religious.

BTW - why insult jesus by puttin him on such a building?

[sujan]

131. using my logic

you'd not install a religious item in public property using tax dollars.

[Blue_Chill]

133. Stalin used your logic

:D

[sujan]

135. so did the founding fathers

[thom1102]

137. Actually, Moore used his own money to commission the monument. n/t

[CO Liberal]

153. But It Was Occupying Taxpayer-Funded Space

Using taxpayer funded A/C, heating, and electricity.

[CO Liberal]

154. I Think That's Cause To Worry

The Pope couldn't even keep his priests in line - would you want him running the damn country?

[Liberal Veteran]

143. So you won't mind if put my monument in the rotunda?

Here's a pic of it:

[CO Liberal]

148. No One Is Telling You You Can't Practive Your Religion

Bu you do NOT have the right to force your religion on anyone else. And that's what Ray Moore was doing what that damn monument.

[thom1102]

111. You know what?

Asking me to feel sorry for people who willingly identify with a religion that actively persecutes and oppresses people in the areas where they are a majority, and are subsequently persecuted in the areas where they are the minority, is like asking me to feel sorry for the shark that strays too far up the Amazon and gets eaten by the pirhana. Is it sad that people any where in this world can't benignly worship who and what they want to? Yes. But when every major world religion is openly hostile to an entire section of their own society because of who they choose to love, (and that's just the starting point for me) then don't come crying to me because some priest in China is persecuted, because if he were here in the United States he would be the one leading the persecution against me.

[CO Liberal]

151. Thank You, Thom......

You get it, and far too many self-professed Christians out there don't.

[jmm]

52. Kwanzaa is NOT a religious holiday

Try learning what it is about before you rail against it.

http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/

[ChesWickatWork]

82. oh come on

how did the black community at the school know what you said to the principal? A little dramatic, don't you think?

[KinkyDem]

91. Well let me tell you...

what happened in my sons school.

He get's preached to by his class mates. He is bombarded with images that are deragatory to our faith and has the holidays that were stolen from our faith and basterdized by the christains shoved down his throat.

In my sons pre-school they celabrated EVERY holiday that any student asked to have acknowledged, Easter, Christmas, Samhain, Yule, Hanukah, Kwanzaa, several Hinu ones that I cnnot remember the names of etc...etc...etc.. The list was impresive. The participation was universal, the acceptance was complete. These children were introduced to cultures and holidays that they may have never even known existed and it was fun, and thorough and non threatening and it involved EVERY child's faith.

To have my child come home with sick and perverted ideas about witches being green skinned hags flying on broomsticks is disgusting. To hear you spew about how great YOUR Ten COmmanmments are and how I should just roll over and shut because your great religion has spoken on the all matters of morality and good behavior is sick!

I am tired of people like you who seem to think it's OK to force your religion on me but then refuse to acknowledge my or others faith as valid.

I know I am skirting the "don't atck the mesanger attack the mesage" rule here but so be it. The ideas you put forth are disgusting. If these are truely the things you believe then please go away, if you have mispoken or stated your case poorly then forgive me.

[Blue_Chill]

23. There is more to it then just what the 10 are.

The intent must be taken into consideration. This judge moved that monument into the courthouse in the middle of the night and it's obvious he expected a fight. Thus to me his motives were suspect and I can't support them.

As for the man himself, I believe he should be fired immediately. His job is to obey the law and enforce it, nothing more nothing less. He failed to do so because of a moral stance he felt that he had to make. That's great and I support those that fight the system but he can no longer be seen as qualified to hold his current position.

As for the larger issue of seperation of church and state, I completely disagree with the current trend in rulings. It is my opinion that it was meant to keep the church out of lawmaking and lawmaking out of the church. Not keep all mention of religion out of public buildings. That in my opinion is taking it too far and I will fight that. I will never vote for a Dem that supports that type of censorship because I fear the slippery slope. Not long from now the same 'deeply offended' anti-theists will demand that Dali's work be removed from museums hat recieve public funds.

The public is made up of all faiths and people, demanding our collective tax dollars be spent only on that which is secular is a injustice. I will not stand to see the will of the people subverted to only accept the will of the few. All must be accepted, secular society is unfair.

[Coffee Coyote]

35. no one advocates removing religious mention from schools

It is the TEACHING and PROSELYTIZING that is being fought. Public schools are no more the place for christian instruction than the post office or public library.

There is only ONE reason christian fundies are trying to have their way in the public schools: INDOCTRINATION OF IMPRESSIONABLE YOUNG MINDS.

Do you think if Muslims tried getting Koran Clubs started in the public schools, these fundie morons would be so zealous to protect their "relgious freedom"?

You revealed your staggering ignorance of constitutional law, because the Bill Of Rights is designed EXACTLY to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

Slippery slope indeed. The only people who come after publicly funded museums for the content of their displays are the fundie creeps, when they protest "blasphemous" displays, a la Mapplethorpe or such. No secular group will be after the Dali or the Michealangelo knock-offs. :eyes:

[Blue_Chill]

45. Ask Sujan

before you come to me with 'no one wants' bullshit.

Also content is a word often misused. Most want to inclde religion in a way that makes it look like shit. For example going over the horrors of the crusades is fine, but telling students of the good works done by the religious over the years is indoctrination.

I've heard it all before and I see a growing trend in the misuse of the wall of seperation.

[sujan]

53. 'good works done by religious'

lol

[sujan]

42. lol...good to see that

you're still advocating installing crucifixion images in public buildings with public money....Justice moore is proud of you.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CO Liberal]

156. Religion Belongs In Churches

Not in the public square.

[Section_43]

24. Look at reply 12 & 17

[HawkerHurricane]

25. Well, as a former Catholic, I'll put in my 2 cents...

I object to Judge Moore's display because he put the wrong commandments up! He put up the version from the King James Bible, not the one that I learned in catachism class way back when.

If he can't put up the correct 10 commandments, then take them down.

[Az]

27. There is a great deal of trouble surrounding the 10 Cs

First off the 3 predominant Judeo/Christian sects do not agree on what they are. Then there is the matter that the bible itself is unclear on the matter. There are two descriptions of the commandments and they differ significantly (See Ex 34 for the second listing of the commandments).

Then there is the matter of the fact that the first four of the Protestant sect (the set most often referenced) are specifically theistic in essence and definately do not apply to a plethora of religious and nonreligious beliefs.

Of the rest only killing, theft, and false witness have any legal bearing. The rest are moral ideals that may not apply to various groups. There are some groups that believe parents have to earn some amount of respect and should not be granted a blank check.

With all the problems it becomes clear why church and state should remain seperate. There are a host of beliefs that differ wildly with each other and each of them believe that they have the only truth. Forcing of one or the others point of view is going to enrage someone. Secular or religiously neutral is the only effective way to procede within a pluralistic society such as ours.

[thom1102]

29. See, now that is where you are just plain wrong...

So please feel free to tell all your friends and neighbors that his revisionist history is just that. Most of the founding fathers were Deist. Deist were more like today's secular humanists, and rejected the strict doctrines of christian dogma. These included Addams, Washington, Jefferson, Franklin. What about India? A majority Hindu nation? They don't base their laws on the Ten Commandments, and murder is illegal, screwing around on someone's spouse is considered wrong, etc. There are some good ideas in the Ten COmmandments that are good for every one. Just because the big three religions have hijacked them as basic tenents, doesn't mean that we should give the TC any special place in our society.

Regardless of their historical relevance, the Ten Commandments are religious, and have no place prominently displayed in the rotunda of a government building. It isn't good, it is a breech of one of the founding tenents of our democracy, and is a dangerous precedent.

[catpower2000]

34. Will you please explain to me why you are here?

I'm serious. You are clearly diametrically opposed to what most DUers believe about every social issue known to man. You are NEVER going to convince us, and we are NEVER going to convince you. You will stir shit on threads over and over and over again, and everyone will react to you, and get all pissed off at your preachy bullshit, and then you can be all self-righteous.

So I'm asking you, what is the point of that? Why are you here? There are hundreds of thousands of websites for conservative christian people. Why not join one of them and talk to people who have a chance in hell of agreeing with you once in a while? You have 3 supporters on the threads in which you've engaged here so far. They are all overly-religious people who've proven they like to stir shit too. What do you get out of stirring shit? I honestly and truly want to know, I'm not being sarcastic.

Cat

[Jessamon]

41. I've been here for 45 posts, Catpower

Could you please tell me how you can say I 'oppose DUers on every social topic known to man'? I commented yesterday in a post about sex outside of marriage, and in here today. Lots of extrapolating we're doing, isn't it?

[catpower2000]

47. Those are the ONLY threads you've been in, as far as I can tell...

and if you're as fundamentalist Catholic as you seem to be, it's not too difficult to extrapolate your other views, and it's not too difficult to extrapolate what the reaction is going to be. You've seen the reaction so far, which I assure you will continue to be the reaction you get here if you continue to preach fundamentally conservative religion on this message board. Do you know we have more athiests than all religious posters COMBINED?

Is this fun for you? Many people dislike you immensely and already dread your posts. Do you enjoy that? Again I ask, which you didn't answer, why are you here?

Cat

[Jessamon]

58. Guess what political party most Catholics belong to

That's right, Cat. Most Catholics are Democrats, as am I. So knowing that I am a Catholic Democrat, why don't to criticize your pals for making anti-religious posts you KNOW are going to be offfensive to a good many Catholic Democrats? Do you get your jollies by forcing us to object?

[GOPisEvil]

63. Well then, as a Democrat, you see the positives in the Bill of Rights...

..correct?

The founders of this country wanted religion to play no part in official government business. That's why a lot of them left England. The bottom line here is that Judge Moore is a proseltyzer, and the 10 Commandments have no business being in a public building.

[catpower2000]

65. But you're not posting about politics...

you're preaching about morality in the lounge. So what does you being a Democrat have to do with my questions, which is WHY ARE YOU HERE, IN THESE THREADS, PREACHING ABOUT MORALITY? For the third time.

Cat

edit: and here's a political question for you. Who do you support for President in 2004?

[Jessamon]

68. Reading comprehension

may not be your strongest point, Cat I answered your question in my last post about why I am here. Perhaps you can tell us why you're here. As for whom I support in 2004, do you recognize the image in my avatar, Cat? Good lord.

[catpower2000]

71. First, you are incredibly rude for a "christian"...

you did NOT explain your reasoning for being HERE, in the LOUNGE, in threads having nothing to do with POLITICS, preaching about MORALITY. Saying you are a Democrat does not explain any of those things.

As for Lieberman, he is pro-choice. Don't you have a problem with that, as a fundamentalist Catholic? I'm pretty sure there are LAWS about that in your church. Aren't you supposed to be following them?

Lastly, your use of the term "good lord". Isn't that prohibited by a Commandment in your religion: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain"? Isn't that what this THREAD was ABOUT to begin with? If you are preaching to everyone else that they should follow the rules set forward in your religion, why aren't you following them yourself?

Cat

[CO Liberal]

73. It Only Took 47 Posts For That Guy To Earn His Tombstone

:-)

[Blue_Chill]

74. Anti-theists win again!

Hooraayyyyy....

[sujan]

75. yep

a good thing indeed.

[noiretextatique]

98. separation of church and state is not anti-theism

it's separation of church and state.

[Blue_Chill]

108. It's forced secularism

No one is arguing that they want the US to declare a religion. But the statement that no public anything can have religious symbols allowed within it is a strong one.

[thom1102]

117. And a correct one...

As was asked earlier, should Muslim holy symbols, or Hindu holy symbols, or Wiccan holy symbols be allowed? If you have one, then you are favoring it over the others. The way I see it, if you want to be fair to everyone, keep public spaces free of religion, and promote your religion in your church.

[Blue_Chill]

123. That isn't fair at all

It would only be fair if a group did not exist that wants no religious symbols anywhere. Being that such a group does exist then you are favoring them by doing removing all religious symbols.

[thom1102]

136. What's the alternative?

Cluttering our public spaces with symbols of any religion that anyone wants represented? That is completely unworkable. And I think that it is fair, personally. Our country was founded on secularism, after a century and a half of religious civil wars in England, our founding fathers had the foresight to say, the best way to ensure that religion doen't become an issue here in this new country is if religion and government are seperate entities.

[Rabrrrrrr]

141. Man, that's half-assed logic

So you're assuming that the only people who want to religious symbols in public government spaces are atheists?

Wow - you need to wake up.

Yes, there's a group that wants to religious symbols paid for by tax dollar and put in public, official spaces - and that group is made up of Christians and Atheists and who knows what else.

[Code_Name_D]

157. Darn thouse non existant groups.

They should just go away.

[Rabrrrrrr]

119. it's forced non-favoring-any-religion

And forced "you need to respect all the religions and non-religionists we have in this country". Seems simple to me that we should all respect one another, but alas, it comes to that wonderful Consitution as a last resort for when bigots and others want to force others to believe what they believe.

Big difference between that and secularism/atheism.

[Blue_Chill]

124. I love when people say 'forced'

please tell me what a piece of religious art in a state park forces you to do? What does it force anyone to do.

But the current trend of extreme seperation is forcing a lot of people to change much.

[sujan]

128. it promotes the christian agenda

1. proselytization with public money.

2. promotion of christianity in the government

so hell with the religious agenda, in fact, the next thing I'd like to see struck down is the pledge which is anything but constitutional.

[Blue_Chill]

132. Try to answer the question next time

I asked what it forced anyone to do. You failed to answer.

but since you did manage to shake the visions of invading popes in your head long enough to bang out that post I'll respond.

1. proselytization with public money.

Proselytize: To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith

I have never found art to induce me to do anything but look at it. It's not like I'm asking for monitors to be set up on the national mall with religious comercials running 24/7.

2. promotion of christianity in the government

No. It would be acknowledging the background and beliefs of the nations citizens that follow a religion. I find nothing wrong with appreciating those around you. Nor have I ever said it would be limited to Christian symbols.

[sujan]

138. re:

I have never found art to induce me to do anything but look at it. It's not like I'm asking for monitors to be set up on the national mall with
religious comercials running 24/7.

> well you're a christian, right? no wonder it doesn't influence you

No. It would be acknowledging the background and beliefs of the nations citizens that follow a religion.

> That is a carte blanche to shape public policy based on the 'ethics'
of the majority. Not to mention the fact that it is still an endorsement of a religion.

[thom1102]

140. THere's the flaw in your argument...

of the nations citizens that follow a religion

This isn't Italy, Spain, Ireland, or Egypt, where 99% of the population is a specific religion. There are more religions in this country than there are countries in the world, and to fairly represent all of them in any public space that anyone wanted, is impossible.

[thom1102]

139. Actually, the trend is in the other direction...

religious extremism is growing world wide. These extremists are becoming more and more insistent in their intolerance of other points of view. That is why we secularists, as you like to refer to us (and which I happily embrace), have had to become more diligent in stemming the tide of encroachment of religion into government.

[Rabrrrrrr]

147. Ah, another with the state park meme

First off, no one's gonna stop anyone from wearing a cross on their neck or any other symbol in a public place except the occasional asswipe school administrator. What we're talking about here is state-displayed religious iconography that may also be paid for by the state. And not displayed as art, say in a museum, but displayed as "the truth" or as "this is who we are".

BUT - the existence of a large cross in a state park, or the ten commandments in a courthouse, or any other Christian symbol (or other religious symbols) in a public space as detailed above, has power - it has power because SYMBOLS have power (if they didn't, we wouldn't use them, right?) - and by putting those symbols in public places one is making an implicit statement that THIS symbol is valid to this country, whereas other symbols are not, and therfore THIS religion is appropriate, and the others are not.

The presence of one symbol automatically nullifies the validity of all the symbols that are not there.

A big old cross or TC in the courthouse is gonna offer a good possibgility for non-Christians who walk in to wonder if they're going in for a reliigous trial and/or if they'll get a fair shake. And especially in teh US, no matter how much the ten commandments are Jewish in origin, people are posting them as CHRISTIANS, because they want people to think we're a Christian nation, and it's pure jingoistic claptrap and balderdash. I don't want my faith watered down into mere frappery like that.



People can be controlled by symbols, or made to feel inferior through symbols or disenfranchised or made to feel more powerful. Religious symbols have no place in public spaces except in museums and/or other displays that honestly make reference to the sum total of religious expression in a community.

I find it interesting that the only people who bitch and moan about not being able to place their religious anywhere they damn well please are Christians.

[CO Liberal]

150. Religious Art Belongs in Churches

NOT on public property or in public buildings.

[Coffee Coyote]

118. Anti-disruptors

99% of the theists on DU observe the rules and engage in worthwhile exchanges of opinions and ideas. If you think DU discriminates against theists, why don't you post a complaint in the Ask the Admins forum?? :-)

[Blue_Chill]

125. They don't answer such questions

Tyr asking why someone was banned and you'd better find a comfortable chair.

[Coffee Coyote]

130. I never ask that

It is none of my business why someone gets banned. This is Skinner's site, and he can do whatever the hell he wants.

[Blue_Chill]

134. You act as if I said otherwise

lol

[Rabrrrrrr]

76. Crap, I was actually hoping he wouldn't get tombstoned

Had some points that dude never responded to, and I wanted to hear him/her on it...

Crud. Now I'm sad.

Well, it was a fun two days.

[greatauntoftriplets]

79. an Opus Dei Catholic I suspect.

n/t

[sujan]

80. nah

I think she was a bonafide roman catholic...good for her.

[catpower2000]

83. Apparently, NOT good for her, since she was banned :) nt

[greatauntoftriplets]

86. Bona fide Catholics (and I am related to many of them)

are not so judgmental. Remember, Jesus believed in turning the other cheek.

[goobergunch]

103. Well, I can keep one of the disruptors in NS around if you want (n/t)

[Rabrrrrrr]

104. NS?

Embarassing, I'm sure I should know what that is, but I don't. THough likely, as soon as I post this and make it known I don't know it, it will come to me.

[catpower2000]

77. Whee! Now we can all stop wasting our time! And I include myself...

I don't know why I ever try arguing with fundies, except that their hypocrisy pisses me off. :)

Cat

[greatauntoftriplets]

70. Can you please quantify that statement with a link giving statistics?

And what about the Catholics who are Republicans?

[Old and In the Way]

106. Welcome aboard...hope you got a thick skin!

Your views aren't exactly popular here, I'm afraid. Your Joe Lieberman pic won't gain you a lot of friends, either,LOL!

As far as the 10 commandments go, would these be the same one's that this administration sees fit to break daily (I'm thinking the Thou shallt not kill and the Shallt not covet they neighbor's goods, primarily). Maybe the good Judge should be adding his voice to those that see the real moral outrage that is being done in our name....odd that he doesn't seem to mention them, don't you think?

I'm a long time practicing ex-Catholic, too. I was wondering if maybe God should revise those 10 Commandments to include a "Thou shallt not molest young children", too? Seems that some in the Church need to be reminded about what is truly sinful.

Finally, I have a problem with people like Moore who are using religion as a political device....really, are we to take these literally? Should we have laws enforcing the Sabbath? Honoring our parents (I'm thinking the ones who lock theirs up in cages or exorcise the devil from their kids for having been born autistic)?

Seems to me most people here have no problem with Christian people, just those that use religion to further their economic and political agendas.

Welcome aboard!

[catpower2000]

114. Sorry, Jessamon is already tombstoned...

just to let you know.

Cat

[Blue_Chill]

48. Do yourself a favor

and ignore some people. The person you just responded to almost got banned because I didn't agree with her and she couldn't stand it. It did us both a world of good to use the ignore feature.

If you are going to last on DU you can't fight everyone.

[Coffee Coyote]

54. if she is on ignore...

How do you know she is the one who responded to Jessamon?

[Blue_Chill]

56. Subject line n/t

....

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jessamon]

61. Thank you

for what sounds like sage advice. It's a shame we can't all agree to disagree on some things, though.

[Interrobang]

72. So many religions?

Which "so many religions"? I only count two religions (since the Qu'ran has a slightly different interpretation of just about everything, and I don't know of any Sabeans anywhere -- those being the four "peoples of the book"). That still leaves, oh, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of religions which do *not* follow the Ten Commandments, and myriad different interpretations of non-belief besides.

I don't see anything good about having the Ten Commandments in a public place. To me, they are an explicit directive pertaining to Christian and Jewish religion (more, I think, to the latter than the former, actually), and since I'm neither of them, I would find their presence in a public place actually rather offensive. If the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments are a "world institution," they only are so because of cultural imperialism, which you might know better as "missionary work," which, also incidentally, I consider a crime on the order of cultural genocide.

Believe it or not, I actually find it rather offensive that so much "holiday" practice in this culture is simply Christianity with the sectarian vocabulary stripped out. It's rather jarring to be wished "happy holidays" on the 24th or the 25th, when one might have celebrated one's "holiday" two weeks earlier, or four days earlier, or two weeks later, or not at all.

What part of the "establishment clause" don't you understand? Tradition, practice, and even vernacular usage may contradict it, but when it comes to *official state institutions,* the US is required *by law* not to play favourites between religions. I'm getting really tired of Christians insisting that their religious demonstrations aren't really religious demonstrations, they're just "common sense," or "tradition," or whatnot. Well, no.

Practice your religion in *your* church, not in everyone's governmental institutions. I actually come from a country which *does* establish a religion, and believe you me, it's rather rankling. (If you lived in a country that established a religion that *wasn't yours* -- ie. if you were a non-Christian living in a Christian country, you might see what I mean.)

And lose the "oppressed majority" mindset, ok? Those of us in minorities who really *are* oppressed, one way or another, find it extremely irritating.

[RetroLounge]

81. The 10 Commandments are more of a historic tradition.

yeah, sure, whatever.

So those FUNDIE FREAKS were praying to a Historic Tradition?

So instead of the courthouse or a church, maybe they should be in a museum?

[KinkyDem]

90. You know what

I'm actualy surprised your still here.

Mybe I'm just not clever but I still have not been able to figure out the reich wing reference in your handle. It must be there, I just can't see it.

Seems to me that our pResident sent a bunch of troops over to some desert to kill people because they wanted to live their lives based on the laws in their holy book. How can someone in one breath say "US law is based on the TC's" and then turn around and say "Them damn A-Rabs want to base their laws on WHAT?"?

And no Jessaman I'm not saying you said that but I hear it all the time from other peoiple who espouse the same ideas as you.

I am not some rabid "Get the biblical referance out of every public everything" but I also know that to simply allow it without protest is welcoming it and I for one won't do that. You want to display the TC's along with the Wiccan creed, some Budhist proverbs and maybe some Lakota poetry I can see that...in a library or a museum but not in a court house.

Jessamon, this is for you: How would you feel entering a court house with a huge Koran placed there by a judge? What about a huge 2 ton pentagram? What about an upside down, satanic pentacle with a six foot high goats head in the middle? How would that make you feel? Would you enter that court with the assumption that you would be treated fairly?

The bible at some point says "THou shal not suffer a witch to live". That's me. The bible says that I should be killed for my belief in a higher power. Why, should I in any way support the TC's in a court house when in fact they come from a book that specificaly calls for me death?

[damnraddem]

110. Is 'no graven images' a world institution?

Go tell Mt. Rushmore.

[Not a robought]

112. Yes

I am Catholic and I am SO GLAD that rock is gone!

[ScreamingMeemie]

127. Catholic hypocrite here...I want my church and my govenment to stay the

hell out of each other's business.

[kixot]

142. Are you for real or what?

PRACTICING CATHOLIC HERE WHO APRROVES OF THE ABOMINATION'S REMOVAL!!!

I don't want anyone pushing their religion on me, I don't want to push my religion on anyone else.

We Roman Catholics have made that mistake before and we learn from our past.

[Squeech]

21. Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's

And, in this republic, the courthouse is Caesar's. That's the way it is.

You want it the other way, that's how they do it in Iran. And how they did it in Salem in the 17th century, and in Spain during the Inquisition. Not compatible with a constitutional republic.

Once again, so-called Christians aren't even willing to abide by their own rules. This case has nothing to do with the moral value of the Ten Commandments, and everything to do with the consistent application of the law-- both civil and canon.

And, in case anybody's thinking that somebody ought to pay for this, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

[Drifter]

22. Who paid for this ...

stupid thing. Moore should be fined the cost (plus applicable interest) of the monument including all of the moving it around. Then he can take it home and put it in his livingroom (it his expense). Then he should be fired so he has the opportunity to spend more time with it.

In my opinion in order to follow the Ten Commandments you must not follow them. Something about a Golden Calf and worshiping worthless monuments.

Cheers
Drifter

[CanuckAmok]

26. AMEN! er..I mean..."YAY"!

one small victory, and more to come!!

"The Progressive shall rise again!"

Who was it who said that it will be fine to put the 10 Commandments monuments in every courthouse in America the day that the Bill of Rights is hung around the neck of every statue of Christ in America?

[MissMillie]

30. A victory for the Bill of Rights

The right to worship (or not) is a right held by the individual, not by the state.

[jmm]

33. Woo-Hoo! It's about time.

Is the faith of people who want the Ten Commandments in the court really that weak that they need a reminder on government buildings? I doubt it. This is more of an attempt to use religion to push a belief system on people. Kind of like how "under God" was added to the pledge in the McCarthy era. This isn't just an attempt to push religion. In a way it's an attempt to define good 'Muricans.

edited for spelling

[MissMillie]

36. Fun Freeper arguments

Since Athiests, by nature, believe in 'nothing', there is now 'nothing' in the rotunda at the courthouse. This means that the State of Alabama is putting a symbol of your religion in a prominent place in that building, and that offends me. I demand that the symbol of your belief system be moved immediately from the public place... and I'm gonna file a federal lawsuit if they don't move it...

11 posted on 08/27/2003 8:46 AM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (My Doc said I'm paranoid, and gave me pills. I don't take them cuz I think he's trying to kill me...)
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies | Report Abuse >

[damnraddem]

120. But Christians believe that God is everywhere.

So God must be in that rotunda. So, if the Freeper thinks that there is nothing in the rotunda, then the Freeper must be an atheist -- at least a rotunda atheist, even if he thinks God is everywhere else.

But with regard to his statement that the rotunda now contains nothing so is a symbol of atheism: the rotunda likely is filled with air. Therefore, what is currently in the rotunda is not a religious symbol of any religion, unless it is a religion that worships air. Oh no, wait -- the Alabama judicial building rotunda now contains a religious symbol of the: Breathairians! ;-)

[Not a robought]

121. That freeper needs to breath some fresh air

the fumes, the fumes.

[BlueJazz]

43. Man, O, Man......History has shown that...

...religion and politics don't mix.
As I'm so fond of saying: There was a time in Europe when the 2 were truly intertwined.
It was called The Dark Ages.

[ArkDem]

84. They are sometimes still intertwined in the middle east.....

no?

[noiretextatique]

99. yep...case closed nt

[opihimoimoi]

113. Hey wha about those snakes they ordered?? Do I get to keep the deposit?

Those snake kissing Bapists ordered 36 Black Mambas. If you survive them, you iz in w/God man.

Come, we got rattlers, cobras, racers, corals, and asps.