Why I think Democrats are fooled into Dean Worship

[jfkennedy]

First of all the only reason why Dean is so popular among Democrats is because he is the the only one advertised by the right wing conspiracy media.

The reason why they sponsor Dean is because they know he has zero chance of winning. Wake up! Liberalism is unpopular, the Republicans will make it popular on the media because they know in 2004 people will vote for a security president.

The only one that can beat Bush in 2004 in Wesley Clark. Please just do some research on pacifism and anti-war movements. They have been from the 1930s hated by Democrats like Dean and Unions and the Republicans. I am a liberal will you vote for me?

[newyorican]

1. Worship?

feh.

[Terwilliger]

2. oh well

I'm SO glad I came back to reality...it's SOOO much fun

[Clete]

3. If you are talking about right wing conspiracies,

the Repubbas are pushing Clark because they are afraid of Dean, so why are you doing so?

[Not a robought]

4. Here's an idea

how about just looking at what the candidates say, what's in their history, their voting record and who their financial backers are because they ultimately are the ones for which the bidding will be done for.

Just a thought.

[Kanola]

5. Sorry. I don't worship Dean

Are you sure you want a Dem to win? I am very wary of your posts. Plus, I will look at Clark ... When or if he gets into the race. He too, is not worthy of worship.

[nomaco-10]

6. YEAH,YEAH,YEAH... Why don't you give it a rest.....

Nobody's buying what your selling.

[LeftCoast]

7. Ah yes...we're all ignorant sheeple doing what the mass media

wants...

Look, I can only speak for myself here, but I support Dean because he says the things I want the Democratic nominee to say. Apparently the thousands of other people turning up to his rally feel somewhat the same.

There are other good candidates, but since I only get one vote at this point it goes to the candidate I like the best. I suppose you'll argue that the invisible waves from my TV are programming my brain to like Dean?

[Name removed]

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[ibegurpard]

9. Well, that's your opinion

And as such, I really can't argue with it. DU rules prevent me from telling you what I think of it and you.

[quinnox]

10. Clark is not the only one who can beat Bush

And there is plenty of support for other candidates in this race other than Dean, for example I am for Kerry but am not as vocal as the Dean people in starting threads about it, there are others also who tend to be quiet that support Edwards. Sure, Dean is the one with the headlines now, but keep in mind it is summer when hardly anyone is paying attention to a far off political race, only political junkies like us do that.

[jfkennedy]

29. Clark/Edwards

I think a Clark/ Edwards would be a shoe in. Why vote for another Republican democrat like Clinton and Dean?

[dajabr]

11. Gasp! How did I end up in the DU Archives?

Must have made a wrong turn at Albequerque?

Can someone help me find my way back to DU II ?

[Tinoire]

45. ROFLMAO! That was great! Thanks!

My first response on seeing this thread was "YOU AGAIN??" but you captured it MUCH better!

Peace

[Name removed]

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[gate of the sun]

13. I agree on one hand but disagree as well.

I don't think Dean has zero chance. I just think if he wins he won't be the candidate everyone thought they loved. I think your argument is flimsy and silly. I don't think it is all a republican ploy. honestly though I don't see it. I can't quite get it.... Dean? I honestly wonder what people see in him.

[Thomas Jefferson]

14. It's clear that his supporters have no idea what Dean is about

Clark was against the war too though he didn't grandstand like Dean. Dean is a little too conservative and changes his mind everyday about where he stands on the issues. I don't know much about Clark. He can't be worse than Dean.

[dajabr]

19. Just think how much grandstanding Dean could have done...

If he had been a paid talking head for CNN? :eyes:

[Cha]

31. "Grandstanding"...yeah ...Dean out there wanting to do something

about the mess we're in and taking a stand and waking a lot of People up who have never been involved in politics before.

Getting more People excited about the propect of Getting Our Country Back!

Give me that Grandstand guy any day! :kick:

[aquart]

55. Grandstanding?

That's what we're calling being uppity now?

Should have stayed in his place and kept his mouth shut?

Tsk, tsk. But so on task.

[tedoll78]

15. (Nelson's voice) "Ha ha!"

:nopity:

Fooled? You wish. I've known very well where he stands (since 2002 - you know - before he was "advertised" by the media?).. and it's closer to the middle than you'd think. The other Dems will be sandbagged with the "big spender" and "liberal" tags, while Dean can point to his record of balanced budgets and NRA support.

Here's a hint: Go to a Dean MeetUp and ask who's new to voting. At least half will raise their hands. With the upcoming election, it's looking like:
Bush will get a vote of ~50 million.
The Democrat will get a vote of ~50 million.

If Dean's presence on the ticket can generate a mere 3 or 4% (~3 to 4 million) additional turnout for our side, it's statistically near-impossible for him to lose in the Electoral College.

And BTW.. you can point at polls showing Bush ahead by 15 pts.. that was the same margin Gore was running behind in Dec 1999.. with the whore media brutally raping him on a daily basis. Judging by the skill of Joe Trippi versus the skill of Donna Brazille, the Doc's going to do great. Hell.. he might even end-up being General Clark's newest boss.

[Name removed]

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[Thomas Jefferson]

17. My goodness. The Deanies are on the attack. I just looked at the

responses and they are pretty vicious. I figure that if they are going after you, you must be doing something right.

[dajabr]

20. Or, just an arsonist? n/t

[Name removed]

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[Tinoire]

47. It's the "Invasion of the Storm Troopers" Part 2 n/t

[JVS]

24. Maybe it was that deleted post in another thread where he called all Dean

supporters anti-semites.

[Pastiche423]

28. After reading that extremely insulting post

his opinion means less than jackshit to me.

[Name removed]

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[Rooktoven]

35. Isn't Dean's wife Jewish?

nm

[Pastiche423]

37. Yes, Judith is Jewish

as well as their two children.

[aquart]

57. Really? And yet here I am.

[Cha]

33. They aren't "vicious" at all! What? Are you sheltered?

Or just disingenuous?

[acerbic]

39. There's another one who just passed "Namecalling For Preschoolers 101"...

- "yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap..."
- "Oh shut up!"
- "My goodness. You're on the attack. I must be doing something right. Yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap..."

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Capn Sunshine]

56. Its funny that the posters all have DEM "hero" names

who are pushing Clark so hard.

When Clark finally decides to run in , oh say 2012, will one of you use the screen name Howard Dean?

Just curious.
:nuke:

[prolesunited]

70. Deanies are on the attack?!?!

Seems to me that the originator of the thread launched the attack, so wouldn't that put them on the defense?

[Mari333]

18. Ill vote for any Dem who runs against Bush

and I hope a Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean ticket is the frontrunner.

in the meantime, I liked Dean wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before the repugs started damning him.

[Kanola]

22. So what is Liberalism?

You make it sound like something evil and perhaps believe what the media drones are stating. Liberalism for me is offering equal rights for all people, straight, gay, etc. Actovism for the poor and disadvantaged, caring about jobs, health care for all Americans, and frankly just giving a shit about humanity. I think Liberalism is HOT!

[Name removed]

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[KaraokeKarlton]

25. Dean isn't a liberal, so that makes your argument pointless.

Likewise, Dean isn't a pacifist. Before you criticize the guy and how "electable" he may or may not be...don't you think you had ought to at least do some research on him? The only people who think Dean is some raging liberal are those who were listening to the press when they decided to be incredibly lazy and label Dean something he's not simply based on him disagreeing with the war in Iraq. He was against it not because he's against war but because he felt it was unnecessary and a bad idea.

The fact that you are mimicing this same tired old mis-labelling tells me that you didn't do your homework before setting off on your "Demonize Dean" crusade.

[jfkennedy]

36. Pacifism is democratic but Dean and Clinton are sellouts

Wars are illegal you all think Dean will be anti war and liberal but in fact he will be another Republican Democratic sellout just like clinton ,and Nader.

Pacifism was in fact popular in 1928.

See Gary Swing he says, "Honor the Kellogg-Briand Pact outlawing war. This 1928 treaty, which was signed by the United States and every other nation, pledges nations to resolve conflicts only by pacific means."


http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/kbpact.htm

[KaraokeKarlton]

52. Kindly don't tell me what *I* think, thank you very much.

Dean has made it perfectly clear that he is NOT anti-war, but rather anti THIS war. He states clearly and concisely that he supported going to Afghanistan and agreed with the first Iraq war. Everyone who supports him ALREADY KNOWS THIS. You are wasting your breath trying to turn Dean supporters away from him because his supporters are FIERCELY LOYAL to his campaign...period. All you are succeeding in doing is turning people off to the very candidate you hope to gain support for. You are also implying that you are of the opinion that Dean's supporters are idiots. Frankly, I find that very offensive. We are informed about our candidate and we like him. If you like someone else, all the more power to you. Why don't you spend a little more time talking up your candidate instead of trying to tear Dean down? If you did that you just might give others a reason to like your candidate just as much as Dean supporters like theirs.

[aquart]

60. What gobbledegook. Really.

[Jim Sagle]

26. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[ibegurpard]

27. LOL

Once again, Jim Sagle comes through with a most enlightening analysis.
:-) :toast:

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[liberalmuse]

34. Terrible argument!

The reason Dean is so popular with me is because he speaks out on the very issues I'm the most deeply interested in--the senseless war in Iraq, the budget deficit, healthcare, jobs, getting Americans involved in the democratic process via a grassroots movement, etc. I know enough about the forces of change to know that REAL change starts in the grassroots. I like Dean's record and the initiative he's shown in Vermont. I like that he is willing to fight Bush--something not many people are doing these days. I like that he believes in being responsible with the environment that supports us. Dean is a fighter. He fought his legislature for the policies he believed would best benefit the people of Vermont. Dean, more than any other candidate, represents the things that are most important to me, and what's more, what I feel is most important for this nation to focus on right now, so our kids have a chance at a decent future, free of reckless war and polluted air. I don't wan't my posterity strapped with paying off Bush's astronomical deficit.

You know, some of us actually research a candidate before we decide to vote for him/her. It looks like you need to do your research before bashing a candidate using weak, simplistic arguments. Dean has a damn good chance of winning. As a matter of fact, he has the best chance of ousting Bush at this point in time.

As for Wesley Clark? Now is NOT the time to be coy and waffle. Too much is at stake. I say to Clark: shit or get off the pot and throw your support behind someone else. I'm not going to support some 'I might run, and then again, I might not run' non-existent candidate. Is Clark Dem or Repub? Does anyone even know? Honestly! In the meantime, Dean is fighting as if the election were tomorrow.

[Name removed]

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[liberalmuse]

44. Too late...

I guess I'm on one today. I used to think people who got upset at all the candidate bashing here should just avoid the posts, but it's getting to me, too. If you're going to bash Dean, PLEASE do some research first.

[jfkennedy]

42. How can he be a liberal

Everyone says Dean is the great libeal hope then his followers say that Dean is not tolerant of Pacifism the very thing that you are voting for him in the first Place. Trust me Clark knows much more about the principles of liberalism and he would not renounce those principles for some magical republican votes.

[liberalmuse]

48. I haven't heard everyone saying that...

he is the best hope out there right now, liberal or conservative. Is Clark even running? I don't give a crap if he is the most 'liberal' guy out there--where is he? I'm realistic enough to know that most people running for office aren't going to be as liberal as I am on gay marriage, legalizing drugs, lifting sanctions on Cuba or ending the drug war AND this stupid war on terrorism (Again, one cannot win a war on an abstract noun!), putting a lot more money into education than into sports, etc. We need someone who is going to represent 'WE THE PEOPLE' as much as possible, and I'm willing to give so that more people get what they want, if it's not tyranny by some radical religious group or bombing other countries out of policy, not necessity or giving in to a plutocracy. Dean is that man. The presidential mantel is right over this guy's head for anyone who can 'see' these things. There, I'm whacko. He's going to be our next president.

[jfkennedy]

43. How can he be a liberal

Everyone says Dean is the great libeal hope then his followers say that Dean is not tolerant of Pacifism the very thing that you are voting for him in the first place. Trust me Clark knows much more about the principles of liberalism and he would not renounce those principles for some magical republican votes.

[Name removed]

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[jfkennedy]

58. Oh so now being antiwar has nothing to do with pacifism

I'm confused. Everyone wants to vote for Dean because he is antiwar but he hates pacifists and wants nothing to do with them and thinks should all be on meds.

[Cocoa]

41. I don't get the last part

the part about pacifism.

[Ein]

46. OMFG Exactly! I'm not going nuts.

Dean is called a liberal everywhere, publicized everywhere, and the party rallies behind him. This is a known fascist media.

The candidates who are liberal are written off.

It is more than enough to arouse suspicions.

And Clark has more trust from me than Dean, b/c his effort seems to be truely unaided by the media. But I still support a liberal (who will announce his party allegiance and, thus, his candidacy).

No more of this centrist bullshit, there is no way but down from that point.

[maxrandb]

49. You are so wrong on so many levels

I think that the great thing about Dean is the tremendous amount of groundswell support he is generating. I think that Dean supporters are going to vote for the Democratic ticket no matter who it is, and he is also getting more people involved in the election (i.e. people that may not have voted). If you are a Democrat and you don't know that the absolute most important thing in the world is to ensure this current pResident does not have four more years to rape this country, then you are NOT A DEMOCRAT!

I think it is wrong to write Dean off. You seem to buy into the whole mindset that we have to have a "drooling", bible clutching southern baptist to have a chance to win. I don't want to win that way. I think that, if you look at this whole stuff with the recall in CA, the possible arrest of Democrats in Texas, Alabama's Republican Governor raising taxes, and the fact that the southern states are in just as much of a bind economically as the rest of the country, then the "Solid South", that has been around since Nixon, may not be "in the bag" for Chimp.

I will say this again as I have to so many of my active duty military friends (yes, I am trying to change some hearts and minds one at a time).."Dean is not a liberal". I don't know the man personally, but from what I have read and seen, he is a populist with an important message. He is also emergizing our base.

I urge you to let this play out, and if Dean is the candidate..get your butts to the polls and vote for him. What choice do you have? You could always vote for Shrub I guess.

on edit: I'm sure there are puncuation and grammatical errors, but I am a Business Major

[jfkennedy]

54. But Dean will not win.

As much as you all hope he will win he will not that is why he has been getting all the free PR from the media. The media could make one one of the 3 stooges look presidential. Wake up!

[depakid]

59. Wake up!

Have a shower and take off the hat-

The "media" is not all powerful, and many of them are backtracking as we speak, trying to save what may be left of their careers, once payment comes due.

Think forward, not backward.

That's what JFK or RFK might say, were they alive today.

[Ein]

62. If the 'media' is not all powerful

Why are people who are supposedly 'liberal', falling behind candidate that is centrist and 'to the right of bush in some instances' (paraphrase of Dean)? And all of this on a pretense of electability? Wow!

The Democratic party aparently has no room for liberals anymore.

[Name removed]

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[GreenArrow]

67. The media could make one one of the 3 stooges look presidential

hell, they played a big role in getting one of them selected!

[killbotfactory]

50. Heretic

I'm dumber for having read this. Thanks a lot.

[Room101]

51. Jfkennedy Clark was anti-war LOL hello LOL

:)

[tlcandie]

61. LOL .. How many times are Dean supporters going to CLICK

on these infamous threads and get sucked into this crap? I'm not into Dean, BUT I will not say anything negative towards him!

I just hope you all QUIT clicking on this stuff really soon! I clicked because I was curious how many of you couldn't resist :(

<shakes head and walks away>

[Khephra]

63. Sorry, but in my case you were wrong in the very first sentence

I knew of and supported Dean a long time before the rest of the media and much of the political world knew about him.

[okieinpain]

64. what I don't understand, where is he liberal. is this how bush is going to

beat any dem. "HE'S A LIBERAL", shit when did liberal become scum of the earth. Also can someone please point out to me where dean is liberal.

[GreenArrow]

65. I'll dissent with the majority view on this

Dean does seem to have garnered the majority of the goverment controlled media attention. I'll disagree with JFK here, and suggest that the reason that Dean is getting the attention is not because the right wing is throwing him up as some sort of easily beatable dupe, but rather because he is a candidate who is acceptable to the powers that be. He says enough liberal things that those who are progressively inclined can feel comfortable supporting him, and his record is conservative enough that moderate Republicans and indpendents will see him as a better choice than the virulently hard right Bush. His positions are so safe that even those predisposed to distrust "liberals" will see him as a real alternative--"gee, liberals really aren't that bad"-- when in reality he's totally status quo.

I don't agree that Clark is the only one who can beat W. Dean can beat W. Gephardt possibly could beat W. Kerry can beat W. I'd like to believe that Kucinich could beat W, but as a more authentically liberal, and thus unsafe, candidate, who is offering up real alternatives and a genuine change in direction, would have a very hard time of it.

[jfkennedy]

71. Remember Gore

Gore was a real liberal way more liberal then Dean. People are not stupid. The voters will see that someone (Dean) that voted both Republican and Democrat is just another Republican Democrat like Clinton.

Think about it Gore was so liberal they stole the election so now they are running a fake liberal like Dean because they know he will not win and the DLC and the Republicans in 2004 will have the victory in 2004 that they did not get in 2000. Dean is a scab.

[Ein]

73. Was not!

'Gore was a real liberal'... The Democratic party cannot define liberal as it pleases. This guy was sucking the dick of pharmaceutical companies long before the 2k election.

[jfkennedy]

72. Remember Gore

Gore was a real liberal way more liberal then Dean. People are not stupid. The voters will see that someone (Dean) that voted both Republican and Democrat is just another Republican Democrat like Clinton.

Think about it Gore was so liberal they stole the election so now they are running a fake liberal like Dean because they know he will not win and the DLC and the Republicans in 2004 will have the victory in 2004 that they did not get in 2000. Dean is a scab.

[REP]

68. I Built My Dean Shrine Long Before the War

and if you'll excuse me, I have to go make a sacrifice now.

[JohnKleeb]

69. huh I dont support Dean because hes not liberal enough

Dean isnt a pacifist either. Kerry is more liberal than him.

[Trajan]

74. I guess character assassination ...

isnt limited to Clark ...

You know ? ... Dean is a nice fella, and would make a SPLENDID President .....

Isnt that enough ? ...

Sheeesh ....