In response to all those Christians out there

[PurpHaze69]

upset about the Alabama 10 commandment issue. And for those who believe that American laws were based on the 10 commandments and America is a Christian nation, the U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause 8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

And as far as the Declaration of Independence goes, we are not governed by the Declaration. Its purpose was to "dissolve the political bands," not to set up a religious nation. Its authority was based on the idea that "governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," which is contrary to the biblical concept of rule by divine authority. It deals with laws, taxation, representation, war, immigration, and so on, never discussing religion at all.

The references to "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Divine Providence" in the Declaration do not endorse Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, its author, was a Deist, opposed to orthodox Christianity and the supernatural.

And our laws are NOT based on the 10 commandments. The first four Commandments are religious edicts having nothing to do with law or ethical behavior. Only three (homicide, theft, and perjury) are relevant to current American law, and have existed in cultures long before Moses. If Americans honored the commandment against "coveting," free enterprise would collapse! The Supreme Court has ruled that posting the Ten Commandments in public schools is unconstitutional.

Our secular laws, based on the human principle of "justice for all," provide protection against crimes, and our civil government enforces them through a secular criminal justice system.

So, take your 10 commandments and put them in Church were they belong, NOT in a government building. Thank you.

[Skittles]

1. welcome to the DU, PurpHaze

and I must say you have a lot of guts. :D

[Kbowe]

51. Please send this to Falwell, Robertson, and Bauer.

Thanks for the post.

[FlashHarry]

2. Very well stated.

Personally, if you're going to have a monument to law in your courthouse, you should display a carving of Hammurabi's Code, Justinian's Corpus Juris Civilis and The Magna Carta.

[RobertSeattle]

5. And don't forget the Asimov's Robot Laws...

A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

:0

[RobertSeattle]

11. Hmmmm Just realized the Right Wing Talk Show Host Laws

A RW Talk Show host may not injure a Republican, or, through inaction, allow a Republican to come to harm.

A RW Talk Show Host must obey the orders given it by the Republican except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

A RW Talk Show Host must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

[never cry wolf]

17. LOL

PERFECT!!!

[Blecht]

46. This is the funniest thing I've read here in a ...

... very, very long time.

:D

[arendt]

48. Great! KICK! Its a bumper sticker for scifi addicts!!! n/t

n/t

[leftofthedial]

50. deadly!!!

Thanks!

[NeonLX]

3. This Christian agrees with you 100%

That one protestor (seen on FOX footage today) screamed, "Put it back, get your hands off our God!". There are several things wrong with his statement:

1. Is God somehow contained in a piece of rock with human carvings on it? Sounds a lot like idolatry to me.

2. What's with this "our God" business? I'll go out on a limb here and say that God might not like the idea of one group of people claiming to own him.

3. I, for one, don't want the government mucking around with religion, nor do I want religion mucking around with government.

I could go on, but I gotta get back to work...

[wryter2000]

33. Well put, Neon and Purphaze

Welcome to both of you from a relative newbie.

While I'm not a believer, it's my impression that the overwhelming majority of religions people support separation of Church and State, seeing correctly that it's good for both government and religion.

I couldn't get over the idiot who was screaming, "You can't take my 10 Commandments. You can't take my Bible away from me." I screamed back at the TV set, "No one's doing that. They're at your home and in your church. Where they belong."

[NeonLX]

65. The "funnymentalists" do Christians a real disservice

Just as the radical knee-jerkers do for Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, or (insert your favorite belief system here).

[ewagner]

4. On CNN

They had an interview with one of the protestors who proclaimed that Judge Moore "isn't a law breaker, he's a law keeper".

Just exactly where in the constitution does it say that you have to display the 10C on public property? It never ceases to amaze me how, when it comes to religion, people are willing check their brains at the door.

edit spelling

[PurpHaze69]

9. Isn't it amazing.

Ignoring history, law, and fairness, many fanatics are working vigorously to turn America into a Christian nation. Fundamentalist Protestants and right-wing Catholics would impose their narrow morality on the rest of us, resisting women's rights, freedom for religious minorities and unbelievers, gay and lesbian rights, and civil rights for all. History shows us that only harm comes of uniting church and state.

[DCDemo]

6. I just do not understand all the hoopla

This has NOTHING to do with religion whatsoever.

A private citizen does not have the right to put private property in public space and demand that it not be moved.

If a citizen DOES have that right, then I'm taking everything I own and can buy and filling up the White House so they can't so much as move to answer a phone or do anything.

It's not about the religion - it's about propery rights and no private citizen can demand placement of their private property on public ground.

[TioDiego]

12. You know what?

You've got to remember this is Alabama. Who cares? It's not worth listening to their wadded panties.

[DarkPhenyx]

21. The self same attitude...

...proclaimed by so many "liberals" in the Democratic party that is costing us the southern states in the elections. What a stupid way to view an entire segment of the country.

[LearnedHand]

41. I know, Tio, but...

...if we DON'T do something about it, and those wingnuts win "by default," that intolerant contaigion will spread to the rest of the 50 states. It's like containing an outbreak of cholera, or something. We've GOT to quarantine that assault on the Constitution.

[arcane1]

49. but they bussed in the prostrate wailers for this event

courtesy of Coral Ridge Ministries

[Bandit]

19. Judges are given a lot of leeway on what they can do in their courtroom

They can install their own desk in their office. They can put their own hatrack in the courtroom. They can do an awful lot but they cannot put their own religion into the courtroom. It is about more than property. Though I do see your point. They can hang their own paintings on the wall of their office but not in the courtroom or the lobby to the courtroom.

[DarkPhenyx]

7. Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

Historical presidence and fact to refute the arguement of the opposition. Complete lack of emotional overtones and hyperbole. I like it.

Welcome to the fight.

[PurpHaze69]

13. Happy to be here.

[ewagner]

58. Forgot

...to add my congrats on a great post and also:

Welcome: :toast:

[never cry wolf]

15. Ditto

Well posted PurpHaze. Welcome to DU! :hi:

[bowens43]

8. What amazes me is that so many Christians

fail to understand that the 'separation of church and state' protects their religious freedom. The 'establishment' clause is every bit as important as the 'free exercise' clause in protecting their right to worship as they choose.

[CO Liberal]

14. And No One Has The Right....

...to shove their religious beliefs down anyone else's throat.

[Az]

24. Actually many do realise that

Unfortunately they are not the vocal ones. This is the problem. The vocal ones are the evangelical ones. They attempt to push their religion. The fact that they actively push it means that they have a better chance of propogating their agenda. Meanwhile the more tolerant Christians keeping to themselves watch as church attendence dwindles.

Religion has to be propgated to stay alive. The more active the religion is in pushing its message the more succesful it is in spreading. Keep in mind the determination in which someone promotes their belief is completely disconnected from whether it is true or not.

[BurtWorm]

10. Now THAT should be carved in a 2-ton monument at the AL SC

Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[StopTheMorans]

16. purphaze...

great post, well thought-out and reasoned, and the best part: backed up by facts. Welcome to DU!

[rock]

18. This atheist agrees with you 100%

Good post.

[Jokerman]

20. Some people just don't get it!

Anytime public property and public institutions are used to promote a religion, everyone is being forced to support that religion whether they want to or not. If my tax dollars are in any way used to purchase, house or maintain a religious symbol, my rights have been violated.

That is why we have the constitutional protection against an "established" religion.

[purji]

22. Thank you

Well said. I fell the same way but I'm not as good as you are about putting it in writting.

[joshdawg]

23. Bravo!!

Very well stated.

[sujan]

25. thank you

[ComerPerro]

26. You are making a name for yourself here

I think I like you!

:hi:

Welcome to DU

[devinsgram]

27. Thank you so much

for putting it so easy for me to understand. :)

[PurpHaze69]

No problem,

if there is anything else on religion you would like to discuss, just let me know. It's sort of a special subject of mine.

[LearnedHand]

42. GREAT post, 'Haze!

(LOVE the screenname!)

Do you have some links that will give us more information (factual, detailed, historically accurate information) with which to counter these ignorant arguments about religion and government? I'm so incredibly OVER this AL business, but it scares me, too.

I'm sure Moore has taken his stand because he perceives the entire federal government will take his side in the matter. (This scares me more than anything else!) So I've been searching for information that's "reputable"; i.e., it's published by a well-known academic or historian and it's information that I can feel secure enough of its accuracy to shore up any argument I might make.

In fact, I've been paging through a couple of pretty good books I have about the Constitution and the Declaration:

American Scripture, by Pauline Maeir (about the Declaration); and

Original Meanings,(can't remember the author) -- (about the Constitution)

I'm hoping to educate MY OWN ignorance of our important documents.


Welcome to DU, dude! :hippie:

[ninkasi]

28. Excellent post...

and a big welcome to DU!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. I don't know any DU Christians who would disagree

If there are people like the Alabama fundies on DU, they don't last long.

Please learn a bit more about the varieties of Christianity before you start stereotyping all the members of a diverse religion with 1 billion members worldwid.

[PurpHaze69]

30. This is why I specified

"those christians who believe that American laws are based on the 10 commandments." I didn't stereotype ALL Christians. And the Christians who agree with my original statement at the top of this thread, and who disagree with most of the right wing evangilist types, and pResident Shrub, who believes god put him in this position of power, YOU need to raise your voice against the far right wing Christian thinking. Those Christians give all of you a bad name.

[sujan]

32. please read the lines properly

before resorting to scream religious persecution.

[Aristus]

36. Not I. I agree 100% with the post, and the removal of the

Ten Commandments. As we all know, there are many people who call themselves "Christians" for no other purpose than to wield political control over others. I woulnd't want that at all.

[Cheswick2.0]

31. I agree with much of what you say except the following

Thomas Jefferson, its author, was a Deist, opposed to orthodox Christianity and the supernatural.


Jefferson attended a Christian Church and never identified himself as a deist. Others called him that because of his unorthodox ideas...but really, the "all the founders were deists" argument is the weakest against this being a Christian nation because it is too easy to prove false.

The truth is the overwhelming number of founders were Christians and founded a secular nation because they saw the evil that could be commited when church and state are mixed.

[sujan]

34. here

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Politics/presidents_religion030217.html

more

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/jefferson.html

Jefferson discovered a Jesus who was a great Teacher of Common Sense. His message was the morality of absolute love and service. Its authenticity was not dependent upon the dogma of the Trinity or even the claim that Jesus was uniquely inspired by God. Jefferson saw Jesus as



a man, of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, (and an) enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions of divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted according to the Roman law.

In short, Mr. Jefferson's Jesus, modeled on the ideals of the Enlightenment thinkers of his day, bore a striking resemblance to Jefferson himself.


Not anything that ordinary christian believe and it's not even close to how Falwell/Robertson/Pope believe.


'nuff said.

[PurpHaze69]

35. On the contrary

Thomas Jefferson:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

Jefferson again:
Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.
More Jefferson:
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Jefferson's word for the Bible?
Dunghill.
John Adams:
Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?
Also Adams:
The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:
The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.
Here's Thomas Paine:
I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance.

The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.

Finally let's hear from James Madison:

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

Among those who confuse Christianity with the founding of America, the rise of conservative Baptists is one of the more interesting developments. The Baptists believed God's authority came from the people, not the priesthood, and they had been persecuted for this belief. It was they—the Baptists—who were instrumental in securing the separation of church and state. They knew you can not have a "one-way wall" that lets religion into government but that does not let it out. They knew no religion is capable of handling political power without becoming corrupted by it. And, perhaps, they knew it was Christ himself who first proposed the separation of church and state: Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto the Lord that which is the Lord's.

[sangh0]

37. Gee, and you started out so well

Please don't slander Christianity as nothing more than "superstitions" and "fables"

on edit: Whoops! I now see that you were quoting Jefferson. My mistake.

[PurpHaze69]

38. Hey,

I'm just stating what our founding fathers said.

[sangh0]

39. I edited my post

see above

[karlschneider]

43. Jefferson was exactly right, though.

All religion is superstition and fables.

[MiltonLeBerle]

45. It's not slander- christianity IS just superstitions and fables.

No matter how many people are duped by them, it doesn't change what the stories are.

[sujan]

47. ha

[LearnedHand]

44. Sources! Sources!

(Please!!!) Where'd you find these quotes???

[FlaGranny]

61. Do a search on any of their names

and "christian" and you can finds lots of these quotes. Suggestion - use their full names, otherwise you'll be coming up with all kings of Christian schools and organizations having nothing to do with the "founders."

[sybylla]

40. Perfect, PurpleHaze

and welcome to DU :toast:

I think you will enjoy your stay. Room service is non-existant but if you need a couple extra pillows you can call down to the front desk.

[Kbowe]

52. "In God we Trust" What is the origin of this on our currency?

Anyone know when, where, and by whom it first was printed on our currency?

[Coffee Coyote]

56. briefly during the Civil War

Then it disappeared, only to reappear late in the Gilded Age. Theodore Roosevelt was greatly offended by it - mixing god and mammon - and it was removed again.

Then it reappeared AGAIN during the conservative 50's under Eisenhower. It replaced "E Pluribus Unum" as our national motto, sad to say.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. Thanks I am bookmarking this. Well done.

[Darranar]

54. Great post...

thank you, and I agree.

[Blue_Chill]

55. So then should it read.

'In the creator we trust'?

[Coffee Coyote]

57. keep religious graffitti off of our money

Besides, as I mentioned with Theodore Roosevelt above - many Americans in his day had NO problem with removing that graffitti from the money, for spiritual and establishment clause reasons.

Not all Americans trust gawd, nor should they. Why the hell should it even be on our money????

[DarkPhenyx]

59. How about...

...we just remove it completely? No god, no goddess, no creator, no fuzzy blue piece of lint I found in my navel this morning. As I recall from my reading Jesus wasn't too thrilled with the money changers or money. We might want to take a hint from that.

[Rabrrrrrr]

60. How about "In Self-governance we Trust"

and get the Christian-specific jingoism off our money?

[FlaGranny]

62. I would think it a great

insult to God to put his name on money.

[Rabrrrrrr]

63. I agree entirely

I think it insults and cheapens the faith to put God's name (or sort of name, anyway) on money.

[Wapsie B]

64. This Missouri Lutheran thanks you

for your well-written essay. Anyone who steps back for just a minute can see that this episode is just another way for the repug spin machine to keep the bible thumpers energized for '04.

Don't stand there defending chimpy or the Iraq War. Demonize those lefties who are gonna take away our bible!!

[NeonLX]

66. Missouri Synod?

We got married in a Missouri synod church but a few years ago, we made a break for it and are now in the ELCA synod. My mother-in-law things we're "dangerous radicals" now... :)

[Wapsie B]

67. Yes.

I'm also ELCA now as well, but I was born and baptized a Mo. Lutheran. In this day and age I consider it good armor for the religious hysteria whipped up by the unholy trinity of wingnuts: Falwell, Robertson, and Dobson. In my years of instruction in the Mo.church, I learned that they were as absolutist as any sect around. This gives me comfort in a strange way.

[NeonLX]

69. Heh. Same here.

Looks like you're from Iowa too. I grew up on a farm in far NW Iowa, near Lake Okoboji.

[Wapsie B]

70. NE Iowa for me.

Raised on a farm near Oelwein.

[maxanne]

68. revising history

Thanks for a great post, PurpHaze69. The revisionist history about the founding fathers irks me no end.

My editorial column this week.


— Judge Roy Moore’s rock was moved this week. Judge Moore is the Alabama Supreme Court Justice, who placed a hunk of granite, the size of a washing machine in the rotunda of Alabama’s Judicial Building. The rock depicts the Ten Commandments. Roy Moore had the rock placed in the rotunda in the middle of the night – which seems to suggest that he was aware that he was violating the basic precepts of the Constitution – which he swore to uphold. It’s rather inconvenient for Judge Moore, that the Constitution is clear about the separation of church and state. As you all know, (unless you’ve been living under his rock) there’s been a big to-do in Alabama.

All week long, we’ve been treated to television footage of howling evangelists making a great spectacle of themselves. Wailing, praying and swearing to protect the rock and uphold the word of God – oh, it has been a display in Alabama. Born again protesters have come from all over the country – to protect a chunk of granite. The Bible cautions against worshiping graven images and certainly cautions against idol worship, but these folks care not. It’s typical of evangelists to sample from the Bible as one would a buffet line, taking what’s convenient for their cause and leaving the rest. If these misguided folk were actually doing God’s work – and laying themselves down on the pavement to protest poverty, or to protect the unjustly imprisoned – they’d have a million converts. Instead they’re wailing around a carved chunk of granite. If a native tribe were found engaging in this sort of idol worship, we’d condemn it as the worst sort of paganism.

A great deal of revisionist history is going on around this. Judge Moore proclaims loudly that the Ten Commandments are the moral foundation of our laws. Many defenders of his stance claim that our founding fathers were religious men. That’s not what comes through in reading their words. John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797, which reads in part, “The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or Mohammedan nation.” The founders were concerned about the separation of church and state – they were particularly concerned that the pious would attempt to foist a state religion on the rest of the populace. They were right to be concerned. They knew it could happen then and we can see the religious right attempting a coup in the United States, right now.

Judge Moore is no stranger to this controversy. As an Etowah County Circuit Court Judge, he displayed a plaque of the Ten Commandments in his courtroom. His courtroom frequently convened with a religious invocation conducted by a local Baptist minister. When the Alabama Freethought Association sued to have the plaque removed, Judge Moore was embraced by Pat Robertson and the 700 Club, and Dr. D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries. These are big guns, loaded with big money in the world of evangelism. The governor jumped on the cause, claiming the “wall of separation” (suggested by Thomas Jefferson, by the way) between church and state was akin to the Berlin Wall of the Cold War era. The Christian Coalition, the Moral Majority, Focus on the Family and the Eagle Forum have all been supporters. Moore’s primary source of financial support comes from Coral Ridge Ministries. The group raised over $100,000 for his defense – during the first round, when he was in Etowah County. In fact, he was investigated in 1999 for ethics violations, over the possibility that he benefited financially from the legal defense fund. He could have faced 20 years in prison. Moore said the Alabama Ethics Commission was “trying to stop the message about God.”

The association between Coral Ridge Ministries and Judge Moore continues. A videotape was made of the stealth placement of the big rock in the state judicial building. The videotapes are sold by Coral Ridge Ministries to fund raise for the judge’s defense. This would seem to be a conflict of interest. The Alabama State Ethics Commission says that laws prohibit “any government official from using state facilities under his control for private benefit, or for the business profit of another individual.” One would certainly hope that the ethics commission would investigate the judge and his Coral Ridge connection again. It seems clear that Judge Moore is no longer able to distinguish between his religious beliefs and his job as chief justice. He is currently under suspension and, since he’s proven unwilling to obey the laws he swore to uphold, he should be impeached. The judge, who received a doctor of divinity ecclesiastical degree this year, should find a pulpit to hold forth from and stop trying to subvert the Constitution.

The views I have expressed here are likely to get me in trouble again this week. Local televised evangelist, Doug Dingley, of Conway Church of Christ, informed his TV flock last week that I’d face eternal damnation or burn in hell for supporting the Rev. Gene Robinson. True to form, our own TV evangelist gave us a buffet sampling of Biblical beliefs in his show. I missed the first part, where he was holding forth on my trip to the afterlife – so I’m not clear on the specifics of what he had to say about me. I do know that he made a point of quoting from both the Old and the New Testament, in his lengthy diatribe about homosexuality. He had a great deal to say about Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah, but never mentioned Genesis 19: 30 to 36, which describes Lot impregnating his daughters. I guess that’s okay – since there weren’t any homosexuals involved. Matthew tells us Jesus wanted us to pray quietly in the privacy of our own homes. Maybe that part got cut out of the Alabama Bible. Leviticus tells us we must kill adulterers and not wear mixed fiber garments. I hope that pink shirt Doug Dingley was wearing wasn’t a polyester blend. A great deal of rape is sanctioned in the Bible – and no one ever says "boo" about that. Someone will be tempted to tell me that we don’t do that Old Testament stuff anymore. But, isn’t the Old Testament where the Ten Commandments come from?

“Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.” James Madison.

[Sterling]

71. Even perjury is not a commandment.

"The book" says though shalt not lie. That is a general blanket stament. Lying itself is not illegal. If it were most Church leaders would be in prison.