DUers, Christians aren't the enemy: a Buddhist rants

[eric_schafer]

First of all, I know y'all are here to teach me about patience, so maybe I can return the favor by reminding you about tolerance :)

Sure there's a certain type of Christian that engages in activities very detrimental to peace, the aforementioned tolerance, and democracy in general. But what I don't understand is why so many rather vocal folks on DU tend to lump all Christians into one big monolithic category.

I was raised Christian. I had plenty of occasions to note the sometimes astounding inconsistency between the words and deeds of the people in my church. These people, and others throughout history who had worn the mantle of "Christian" without even attempting to earn it, were foremost in my mind when I began rejecting and even becoming hostile towards Christianity.

But as I got older and began reflecting on Christianity, I remembered that there were also people there who really seemed to "get it", who really embodied what I consider the core of the Christian message, including love, service, and devotion to their concept of a higher power.

Those people weren't in church because they thought it was some sort of community obligation, or were trying to maintain some sort of religious veneer for themselves and their families. They were there because they were taking Christ's messages to heart and were showing their devotion to him and his ideals. And their behavior was consistent throughout the week; it wasn't put on and worn for a couple hours along with their Sunday best.

When DUers lump these people together...well, the first thing it does is remind me how much work I have to do with respecting people in spite of their opinions. But it also insults the memory of those people who chose to exemplify the really positive things that Christianity has to offer.

If you grew up Christian I bet you knew a few of those people. The next time you feel like disparaging all followers of Jesus, please ask yourself: are you so eager to include THOSE fine folks with the destroyers, the power-junkies, and the greedy who are trying to ruin our nation?

[TSElliott]

1. Stay around long enough...

and you will find that there is a fringe group that hates organized religion.

By the way welcome to the boards.

[eric_schafer]

2. longtime lurker

and I know what you're talking about. It's too bad that people can't live and let live.

[Terwilliger]

4. I'll live and let live

now...get your morality off my laws, and we'll talk

[eric_schafer]

11. very hostile language

I'm certainly not imposing my morality on your laws. I'm not a Christian in the strict sense, and I don't see many examples of the "Buddhist menace" influencing lawmakingin this country, either :)

Perhaps you're having a knee-jerk reaction based on a postive portrayal of Christianity? Or maybe not.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TSElliott]

18. I do not believe that a religion

breeds intolerance, ignorant people breed intolerance.

[Jacobin]

28. What an odd statement to make

All the churches I've been to (well most) and its been a lot give you a special key to heaven.....believd their soothsaying (and contribute a few bucks) and voila....you are in heaven. Hey!! everlasting life, buddy!! Others are doomed to roast in heaven.

How could that NOT be intolerant, idiotic, savage, cruel, stupid, playing on peoples's superstitions and downright troglyditic?

[TSElliott]

41. How many churches have you gone too

and was it the churches or the people in the churches who made these claims?

[Cheswick2.0]

108. Man, you are either really shitty at picking churches or

you have your ears plugged.

[bearfartinthewoods]

59. you have to understand that many of the anti theist are operating on

their own set of prejudices....usually spawned by family troubles.

[Trajan]

65. Intolerance ....

Revelation 6:10 - 11
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ... And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

2 John 1: 7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2 Thessalonians 3:14
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed

2 Thessalonians 1:8 - 9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ... Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Corinthians 6:14 - 17
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? ... And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

--------------------

No explanation necessary: .... these verses speak for themselves .... These words form the dogma which 'teaches' believers, NOT believers themselves ....

The 'religion' is, through its theological precepts, breeding intolerance according to the dogma presented in the bible .....

[TSElliott]

73. Should we ban

this religion because it has some lines that could be interpreted as intolerant?

[Trajan]

89. Where do you get the idea ....

That someone is 'banning' a religion ? ..

This is a first class strawman .....

Freedom is a wonderful thing for EVERYONE .... I wouldnt deny ANY person the right to believe or organize belief ...


TSElliott (306 posts) Thu Aug-28-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #16

18. I do not believe that a religion


breeds intolerance, ignorant people breed intolerance.



-snip-

My post reveals that the bible itself: .. NOT a 'person', demands intolerance by its adherents ..

NOT people, but a book full of words: words that form a 'sacred canon' from which babies are educated and indoctrinated to become faithful adult religionists ....

It is the DOGMA that demands perfect accord to its creed, at the price of exclusion, excommunication or worse ... the ignorant people breed intolerance based on the established dogma that requires them to be intolerant ....

[Cheswick2.0]

112. a lot of verse taken out of context

what's your point?

[eric_schafer]

26. wow

I seem to have touched a sore point with you, which certainly wasn't my intention. I feel like you're being very confrontational, and I certainly didn't intend to provoke that response.

I would hope you see that your comment "Christianity breeds intolerance" exemplifies the overinclusion I spoke about in my original post. I can't agree with a statement like that, although I certainly see how it applies to certain people who have described themselves as "Christian".

What else do I need? I'd take a piece of chocolate cake...

[atreides1]

43. But

Stupidity breeds intolerance not religion.

[Terwilliger]

48. no...in fact, religion does

religion says "Believe GOD in just this way or you will be cast upon the waters of the lake of fire"

WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT INTOLERANCE?!?!?

[TSElliott]

55. I am a Buddhist

and must of missed that part in my religion.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TSElliott]

74. Please tell me why

I would not support Wesley Clark?

[sujan]

76. ever heard of 'ahimsa hie paramo dharma'?

[TSElliott]

93. Ahimsa Paramo Dharma

is an important part of Buddhism but it does not mean that a General cannot change nor be a good person. Even the Buddha let soldiers who retired or were discharged become Monks. Only deserters were not allowed to become Monks because the Buddha recognized the need for a strong army.

Furthermore I am a layman not a monk thus I am not held by the strict conducts of monks. For example I can eat meat and fight in wars. I job is to respect the Buddha, practice the Dharma and uphold the Sangha.

[sujan]

95. I see

you're a buddhist of convenience.

Only deserters were not allowed to become Monks because the Buddha recognized the need for a strong army.
> seriously, where did you get that? Dont make up things dude.

So now let's review the five precepts, shall we....

1. I will be mindful and reverential with all life,
I will not be violent nor will I kill.
2. I will respect the property of others, I will not steal.
3. I will be conscious and loving in my relationships,
I will not give way to lust.
4. I will honor honesty and truth, I will not deceive.
5. I will exercise proper care of my body and mind,
I will not be gluttonous nor abuse intoxicants.

Guess which one you violated....

And about Clark, he is a man of war, always has been, always will be. No use justifying that. The dude was exalting the merits of this war few months ago.

[TSElliott]

98. Read the Vinaya

It goes over the rules for monks there are only like 256 rules and one of them is on military service. This rule was put into effect because of the high number of soldiers who were deserting to become monks, the king went to Buddha and asked him to do something because he was runnning out of soldiers, so the Buddha made the rule only retired or discharged soldiers can be monks. I did not make this up still holds true today. Only retired or discharged soldiers can be monks.

[sujan]

101. re:

You can be a soldier of Truth, but not the aggressor.

One day, Sinha, the general of the army, went to the Buddha and said, ‘I am a soldier, O Blessed One. I am appointed by the King to enforce his laws and to wage his wars. The Buddha teaches infinite love, kindness and compassion for all sufferers: Does the Buddha permit the punishment of the criminal? And also, does the Buddha declare that it is wrong to go to war for the protection of our homes, our wives, our children and our property? Does the Buddha teach the doctrine of complete self-surrender? Should I suffer the evil-doer to do with what he pleases and yield submissively to him who threatens to take by violence what is my own? Does the Buddha maintain that all strife including warfare waged for a righteous cause should be forbidden?’

The Buddha replied, ‘He who deserves punishment must be punished. And he who is worthy of favour must be favoured. Do not do injury to any living being but be just, filled with love and kindness’. These injunctions are not contradictory because the person who is punished for his crimes will suffer his injury not through the ill-will of the judge but through the evil act itself. His own acts have brought upon him the injury that the executors of the law inflict. When a magistrate punishes, he must not harbour hatred in his heart. When a murderer is put to death, he should realise that his punishment is the result of his own act. With his understanding, he will no longer lament his fate but can console his mind. And the Blessed One continued, ‘The Buddha teaches that all warfare in which man tries to slay his brothers is lamentable. But he does not teach that those who are involved in war to maintain peace and order, after having exhausted all means to avoid conflict, are blameworthy’.

‘Struggle must exist, for all life is a struggle of some kind. But make certain that you do not struggle in the interest of self against truth and justice. He who struggles out of self-interest to make himself great or powerful or rich or famous, will have no reward. But he who struggles for peace and truth will have great reward; even his defeat will be deemed a victory.

‘If a person goes to battle even for a righteous cause, then Sinha, he must be prepared to be slain by his enemies because death is the destiny of warriors. And should his fate overtake him, he has no reason to complain. But if he is victorious his success may be deemed great, but no matter how great it is, the wheel of fortune may turn again and bring his life down into the dust. However, if he moderates himself and extinguishes all hatred in his heart, if he lifts his down-trodden adversary up and says to him, ‘Come now and make peace and let us be brothers’, then he will gain a victory that is not a transient success; for the fruits of that victory will remain forever.

‘Great is a successful general, but he who conquers self is the greater victor. This teaching of conquest of self, Sinha, is not taught to destroy the lives of others, but to protect them. The person who has conquered himself is more fit to live, to be successful and to gain victories than is the person who is the slave of self. The person whose mind is free from the illusion of self, will stand and not fall in the battle of life. He whose intentions are righteousness and justice, will meet with no failure. He will be successful in his enterprise and his success will endure. He who harbours love of truth in his heart will live and not suffer, for he has drunk the water of immortality. So struggle courageously and wisely. Then you can be a soldier of Truth’.

There is no justice in war or violence. When we declare war, we justify it, when others declare war, we say, it is unjust. Then who can justify war? Man should not follow the law of the jungle to overcome human problems.

-------------------------------------------------
'nuff said

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sujan]

102. so

why am I to take your words in this matter?

The parent poster claimed he was a buddhist. I, for one, having been born to one could ascertain in my own right if the points he's trying to assert fits with the values a buddhist is taught or not.

Now you want to be contradictory, FINE. But bring substance into the table not
'You're ignornance of Buddhism is, frankly, embarassing' , 'you clearly don't understand', K?

[TSElliott]

107. I do not speak for the Buddha

so my words should not be interpreted as the words of the Buddha. I am aloud to have my own opinions and I believe that Clark would make a fine President. I would choose him as a political leader not as a spiritual leader.

[sujan]

109. oh now you dont

speak for buddha. It's funny because you were using 'Buddhism' itself to justify Clark and aggresive militance in general.

[TSElliott]

114. Spin-Spin-Spin

You were the one that said I could not support Clark because of the Ahimsa Paramo Dharma. I stated that even one who served in the military was not denied by the Buddha.

[sujan]

116. didn't I use the exact story you mentioned

where buddha has clearly laid out the conditions for someone to be in the military? And no Clark didn't just serve, he continued to participate it and was a controversial figure in NATO bombings of Kosovo. He allowed the bombing of necessary infrastructures, hospitals, schools which resulted in the death of around 3000 people thousands more were injured. I dont see any justification for that. Since you brought up 'buddhism' into the topic, try justifying it. I would like to take a look at your spin.

Even back in 1999,Michael Mandel, a Canadian law professor, filed a formal complaint of NATO war crimes with the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia charging 67 NATO leaders with war crimes. Sadly though, these complaints were dismissed by the tribunal who claimed they had no jurisidiction over NATO.



SPIN, yeah right...

[TSElliott]

119. Those are conditions for conduct in the Military

but it does not mean that one who has had a violent past can not change nor does it mean that they are not allowed to ever become a Buddhist. Second I am not going with Clark because I think he should be my spiritual leader but because I think he will make a good political leader.

[sujan]

122. spin again

clark was cheering the bombings when the war started. I saw him on CNN, make me sick to my stomach.

Since you were ready to pounch on atheists/anti-theists on the board so fervently, let me ask this, shouldn't your spirituality shape your belief? Obviously, it does. Now if someone does or proposes to act contradictory to your belief, how can you reconciliate? or are you just pussyfooting? an opportunist? a demagogue?

The issue at hand is not about conversion of Clark to Buddhism or forbidding military. It's about people justifying horrendous acts with misinterpretations.

[Terwilliger]

84. here's info from a BASIC search on Buddhism

To do no evil;

To cultivate good;

To purify one's mind:

This is the teaching of the Buddhas.

--The Dhammapada

You cannot be a person sworn to blow shit up efficiently and follow this basic teaching. If you want to support someome like that and claim Buddhism...well, I'm sure people do all kinds of things for weird reasons.

[sujan]

87. buddhists

that are contradictory creatures as well...

dispute me?

learn about the buddhist theocracies in ancient India, China, Tibet and southeast asia.....

[TSElliott]

96. Point to the part where...

Buddha says "don't vote for a retired General." Or better yet point to the one that says "its' your job to judge the past of others." I think you misunderstand what it means to be a Buddhist.

[eric_schafer]

78. I disagree...

Buddhists can support Clark...

...for VP! Go Dean! :)

[sujan]

79. sure you can

at least we all know then where 'buddhists' stand...

[eric_schafer]

82. I haven't expressed any hostility toward you

and yet I get the distinct feeling you don't care for me. I'm trying to figure out what I did exactly and I'm coming up blank.

My comment was meant to be lighthearted, and I'm truly sorry you seem to have taken it as some sort of slight.

I don't pretend to be speaking for all Buddhists at all. Just myself.

[sujan]

88. well

is a much rationale behind someone who's claims to be 'buddhist' to cheer for someone who wages war?

[Terwilliger]

85. Based on what?

What teaching in Buddhism suggests that a military leader should be the choice to lead a people into peaceful prosperity.

How bout SecDef under Kucinich? That might work out fine.

[TSElliott]

105. There is no teaching in Buddhism

that suggests that a military leader should be the choice to lead the people. Just like there is no teaching that suggests that a military leader should not be the chioce to lead the people.

[Cheswick2.0]

115. I have never heard that message

nor do I believe it. Who is intolerant? Not me

[Terwilliger]

139. good

now, teach the flock the ways of the Christ child

[roughsatori]

39. You're not letting the anti-Christians "live and let live"

Your frustration with them sounds the same as their frustration with "Christians." I'm being facetious (but it is true). Welcome to DU.

Your post reminds me of a friend who is always describing everyone else as "negative" And that amuses me because finding the "negative" thinking in everyone else does not seem "positive."


But I agree with you. Lumping all members of a group together, and describing them all with the traits of the worst, is intellectually dishonest. I have know some incredible people who were, and are, Christians.

[Terwilliger]

50. So then...we shouldn't blanket hate all Republicans

there are MANY on this board who should be let in on that

[roughsatori]

57. I do blanket hate Republicans, on a visceral level

But then I take the anger from the older reptilian parts of my brain and process it in the frontal lobes. When I do that I remember the decent Republicans I have known(and I have known some who were honest, hard-working, good people). Of course, since I'm not perfect I still chalk it up to an intellectual deficit on their part (Even though one of the brightest people I've known was a Republican).

In other words: it is a struggle to observe my own intellectual dishonesty without turning away.

[eric_schafer]

54. touche!

we do often seem to find what we go looking for, don't we!

perhaps "frustration with them" isn't quite correct, and tone of voice is such a tricky thing to nail down online. it's more a frustration with the situation, which has always been, and certainly won't be going away because i'm fretting about it! more reality to learn to deal with, isn't it?

thanks for your welcome.

[roughsatori]

61. I just thought that if you had added "not all" to your title

It would have avoided the same kind of all or nothing thinking you are describing. You wrote: "DUers, Christians aren't the enemy: a Buddhist rants." Some "Christians" are not only my enemy, they are the enemies of those who attempt to embody the teachings of Jesus in everyday life.

[eric_schafer]

83. that's a damn good point (nm)

[sujan]

5. some people here

are hell bent on talibanizing the nation. wont let it happen.

[TSElliott]

7. What do you mean by...

"talibanizing"?

[sujan]

9. remember taliban?

[TSElliott]

13. So you believe that there...

are people on these boards who would like to see this country run by a religion?

[sujan]

15. believe???

they are crying 'religious persecution' right now....

[TSElliott]

17. Who is?

I just see a bunch of people who would like nothing more than to ban the practice of organized religion.

[sujan]

19. well starting with you

lurk around a bit more and find your buddies...

[TSElliott]

23. Really because I disagree with people...

addressing Christians as evil or lumping them all together because of the actions of a small group of Christians then I want this country to be run by a religion?

[sujan]

25. well

you did jump pretty quick on stating that people wanted to 'ban organized religion'.....

[TSElliott]

37. Do you deny that there are those

on these boards who wish to ban organized religion?

[sujan]

40. absolutely

[Trajan]

70. Banning Organized Religion ? ....

WHO promotes BANNING organized religion ? .... show an example ...

[sujan]

77. ...

nevermind

[Bake]

21. Not on THIS board.

That was the question, sujan. Remember? The Christians on THIS board, on DU, are part of the "good guys." But you didn't think of that, did you? No, you are too quick to jump on every single thread on religion and start flaming people and trying to start a fight.

I suspect you had a very bad experience at some time in your life. You seem so bitter, so angry, so "looking for a fight." That's a shame. Why don't you share it with us? From what I've seen and experienced in about 4 years on DU, the Christians here are very understanding, caring people.

Bake

[Cheswick2.0]

118. Sujan doesn't beleive that

he/she is convinced that obecting to it's lame hateful posts about religion makes you a right winger.

[eric_schafer]

14. I won't let it happen either, sujan.

I think diversity is the healthiest thing possible for a democracy.

[AntiCoup2K4]

33. and some people here

are hell bent on shitting all over someone else's beliefs. won't let that happen either.

[sujan]

34. well

history bites...

It's hypocritical of you to cry 'religious persecution'

[Blue_Chill]

110. yawn

:)

[sujan]

113. yep

that's old news for you...trying to stir some more, eh?

[Blue_Chill]

117. Not old news but an old tired argument

besides stir what? You know nothing of my faith and refuse to acknowledge the postive contributions it has made. Thus you are irrational and incapable of debate.

Perhaps you should stick to attacking the buddhist that still feels the need to explain himself to you.

[sujan]

124. know nothing of your faith?

lol

yeah...we read the history books too, unfortunately.

one thing is for sure, the negativism outranks the positive aspects.

[Blue_Chill]

129. Like I said you don't have a clue

History books are your source? lol. Which history books who wrote them how deep do they go into motives?

Also since when do history books report on the thousands that live in poor areas helping feed and care for those that have nothing? No wonder you are so bias, your source is not up to the task.

So go on thinking you got it figured out.

[sujan]

138. well, i see

you get all your informations from revelations, right???

Also since when do history books report on the thousands that live in poor areas helping feed and care for those that have nothing?
> yeah, a common tactic to proselyte, destroy local cultures, break families...really helpful, seen it myself

lol

[Blue_Chill]

148. Oh please you need to do better then that

you get all your informations from revelations, right???

I get my info from trying to see both sides of a story instead of looking only at what I wish to see. A concept that obviously escapes you. I mean why want the truth when you can just read what reinforces what you want to believe.

yeah, a common tactic to proselyte, destroy local cultures, break families...really helpful, seen it myself

That is such crap. Where have you seen it and who did a Christian *FORCE* to convert?

[sujan]

151. hahahahahahaha

That is such crap. Where have you seen it and who did a Christian *FORCE* to convert?

> surely, you're joking right? I mean come on, how can you be in such denial?

[LynneSin]

51. Here's crazy notion

not most Christians you meet want to "talibanize" the United States.

The people who do want to do this are NOT true Christians but zealots who use the bible to manipulate people and create wealth. This was never Jesus' intentions!

[Blue_Chill]

111. Much like Osama

they use religion as a tool to control people and use them for their own gains.

[Terwilliger]

3. eric

if these good Christians dont fight the bad ones...I gotta believe they dont actually think much of their religion

[eric_schafer]

6. I agree, sorta

The "good men" that "do nothing" from the famous quotation certainly bear responsibility. But why make their job harder by lumping them all together and damaging their reputation by association?

[TSElliott]

8. Because some say the word...

Christian as a slur.

[Terwilliger]

32. good men that do nothing? uh uh

Christians have a responsibility to reign in those who would act as "Christians" yet do such awful things. If every Christian said that George Bush was NOT a Born-again Christian, then I may give them some credit.

[LynneSin]

64. Good Christians like Democrats

Are not getting the press we need to denounce Bush.

Bush "claims" he's a practicing Methodist, but how much airtime did the story about the Leaders of the United States Methodist
If Bush is Methodist, then he surely wasn't following the leaders of the Methodist Church who denounced this war. 46 Religious Leaders from 11 Denominations including 20 United Methodist Bishops requested a meeting with Bush and to ask him to find peaceful means to solve the problem with Iraq

http://www.ncccusa.org/news/03news4.html

And those 11 denominations were not some freaky no-name cult:

• United Methodist Church - Bush's proclaimed "Faith"
  
• Episcopal Church House - Episcapalians
  
• Presbyterian Church (USA) - Presbyterians
  
• Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
  
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
  
• Alliance of Baptists - NOT to be confused with the Southern Baptists. Baptists are very progressive!!!
  
• Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch
  
• Friends United Meeting - The Quakers
  
• Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  
• United Church of Christ - UCC
  
• Church of the Brethren
  

If you don't think Christians are doing anything about the war then you obviously haven't been watching cable news - because this kind of stuff along with what us democrats, progressives, liberals, etc does NOT get covered in mainstream news!

[St. Jarvitude]

103. "Bush was not a born-again Christian"

If a single Christian said that, would you give him credit? Or would it really take every Christian (including the likes of "Christians" Falwell and Robertson) saying that for you to give ANY of them credit?

Just curious.

[Blue_Chill]

121. By your logic

Mao and Stalin are the responsiblity of atheists and communists. After all you must police your own Ter.

how do you sleep with all that blood on your hands?

[Terwilliger]

141. so, Christ isn't your responsibility either?

or would he allow those that claimed to believe in him to be shallow enough not to fight for every last human on the planet who's being oppressed?

I think you're sitting here typing in a chat forum

[Blue_Chill]

149. lol do you even read your posts?

so, Christ isn't your responsibility either?

No I am not responsible for Christ. I am responsible to Christ and most certainly not to you or any other anti-theist.

or would he allow those that claimed to believe in him to be shallow enough not to fight for every last human on the planet who's being oppressed?

I don't speak for Christ. Ask him yourself.

I think you're sitting here typing in a chat forum

I'm sure you meant something by that, but damned if I know what.

[TreasonousBastard]

137. Every Christian?

All 2+ billion?

Thank you for your opinion of just what Christians should do.

I, personally, have an opinion on what I should do, and spend little time worrying myself about what others should do. I spend even less time on worrying about whehter or not I get credit from you.

Christianity is quite diverse, and there really is no mechanism for "all" Christians to band together and reign in some renegade.

Many of us don't even go along with this "born-again" thing, and we really have no reason to judge whether he is or not. Or should be.

The ELCA, Church of the Brethren, Mennonite Central, and other groups, in addition to those Lynne mentioned, have made strong statements about Shrub policies, but they were not heard amid the din.

The Roman Catholic Church has been quite outspoken.

Not one of these organizations has as blatantly political a front as some of the Fundies have. We have no Falwells or Robertsons to carry the message out. Name one Lutheran leader. If you're not a Catholic or Episcopalian, you probably can't name a bishop unless sex was somehow involved. Ever heard a Metropolitan speak?

Methodists are boring, Quakers are wierd. No way they can get the press that the fundies get. The Christian Coalition and its ilk speak for a very small number of the world's Christians, but they have the means to get their message out, and get the press.

They do not speak for the rest of us, and we owe no apology or explanation to you for your not knowing the difference.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bake]

22. Terwilliger, what makes you think we DON'T try to counter the bad ones?

Jumping to a bit of a conclusion, aren't you?

Bake

[Terwilliger]

45. is George Bush discredited?

do you think Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are good represetnatives of Christianity? I don't think I've heard of ONE Christian leader STRONGLY CONDEMNING Robertson and Falwell as charlatains. When I hear that, I may give some credit...but then, we'll be back to "one nation under GAWD-uh" and back to the same old problems.

Keep your Christianity between you and your god...why do I need to hear about it at all? This asshole in Alabama tried to use absolute ignorance and intolerance to get his 10 commandments in stone. Has the Christian church denounced him? I didn't think so.

[Cheswick2.0]

123. what "Christian Church" are you talking about?

the one you don't want interfering in public policy? The one you don't want to hear anything about? Maybe "the church" is busy being the church and is letting the government solve it's own problems. (which it did BTW)

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AntiCoup2K4]

42. I've been fighting the "bad ones" for years.

When Jesus comes back, I plan on helping Him trash Pat Robertson's TV studio. Be sure to tune into the 700 Club that day! :D

[Terwilliger]

46. when Jesus comes back

most Christians will be reaping their reward

[DoYouEverWonder]

53. PM when you do,

I would love to come over and help.

[Cheswick2.0]

120. oh for God's sake Terwilliger, I really thought you were smarter than that

There is no reason to fight anyone's religious interpretation. Is this not the United States? People can believe what they want. It is when their belief interferes in the law that we have to worry and for you to palm that fight off on those of us who are Christian is lame and irresponsible.
You might want to set up a game called Good Christians Vrs Bad Christians but it isn't going to happen.

[Terwilliger]

143. Sorry, but the burden is on you

If you believe the tenets of the Christian church, you should be attacking the charletains like it was the Crusades.

You don't.

They don't.

You folks don't really believe in the bullshit...you simply wear it on your sleeve.

...and Jesus wept.

[w4rma]

10. As a liberal Christian I fully agree that Christains aren't the enemy

I will say that there are some "Christian" leaders who, IMHO, don't promote Christ's gospel, but instead their own version where said leaders are quite happy with the "moneychangers" inside of the "temple".

[KamaAina]

12. New DU word: CHINO (CHristian In Name Only)

saw it in an earlier thread by arendt.

Perfect for the likes of Bush*, Asscroft, Roy Moore et al., don't you think?

Edit: Proper usage distinguishes CHINOs (the real enemy) from the vast majority of Christians (not the enemy).

[m_h_lovecraft]

20. I agree

Call them by a name more befitting and specific...
CHINO is definitely a good one.
I would also submit: Christianist, since Islamicist (or variant) is used to distinguish "good" from "bad"...

[knight_of_the_star]

27. I usually think of them as

Fundies, Bible-Thumpers, and Crosstians rather than actual Christians.

[roughsatori]

62. I like that "CHINO"

I will have to tell some friends.

[LynneSin]

68. Personally I prefer:

Zealots, Fundamentalists, Paulists (because they aren't doing Jesus's work, but doing Paul's work which his philosphy was "Convert them or else!") or idiots!

BTW, I someone said Jesus would trash Pat Robertson's studio. I hardly think that is something that Jesus would do. I think he would be pretty busy out there helping all of those who are starving or ill and in need of help!

[AntiCoup2K4]

90. Remember when Jesus trashed the Temple in Jerusalem?

He did so because "This is My Father's house and you have turned it into a den on thieves".

And I suspect that's how He feels about the salvation for cash theology of the 700 Club and other televangelists.

And then after that, he'll take all the needy folks in Virginia Beach out to dinner!

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

24. I'm a Christian and

I abhor the words and actions of Falwell, Robertson, et. al. I've seen from long experience that there are no more intolerant, holier-than-thou people than the Baptists (under which authority I was raised). Still, as an intelligent free-thinker, I have been able to put the intolerance behind me and concentrate on the REAL words of Christ, and thus gain a better understanding of His Kingdom. I know there is room for everyone there, if only they discard the hate and concentrate on the goodness.

There are many of us out there who believe, but don't follow the death-wish control freak TV preacher set (aside from Jesse Duplantis-- I believe him to be just about the only true Christian "preacher" out there!).

Anyone can feel free to lump me with any group they wish. If there's a problem with my belief and my statements thereof, it's certainly not mine.

ON EDIT: I did not mean it to sound like I thought Jesse Duplantis was part of the "death-wish control freak TV preacher set". He is not. He is a righteous man!

[eric_schafer]

30. wait a minute

You're not a number, you're a free man! :)

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

31. Frickin' A right, I'm a free man!

In every sense of the word!

[eric_schafer]

35. i've been watching all those in order

next up is "Many Happy Returns"

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

58. So have I (for about the 12th time)

interrupted only by the Public TV fund drive (so far it's lasted 3 weeks...)

[LynneSin]

71. Six - were you raised Baptist or Southern Baptist?

Baptists in our neck of the woods are pretty progressive leaning. In fact the Baptist church were part of the delegation that wanted to meet with George W. Bush to discuss why Bush should find peaceful methods to solving iraq. I've also volunteered for a Women's Health Center and they have several members from the local Baptist Church who help out there (and yes, it's one of those Clinics).

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

92. Baptist

up in rural Indiana, circa 1960-1978 or thereabouts.

One good thing about the Baptists, they LOVE to eat! You'll never starve on a Sunday, with all the Church get-togethers!

[AntiCoup2K4]

29. Great post, Eric (and welcome to DU)

It's too bad some of the rabid anti-theists don't get it :-(

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

36. Thank you.

You put a perspective on what I've been wanting to say for a long long time. It's time to increase the tolerance level around here, and that includes religion.

[MaryBear]

38. Thanks, Eric.

I share your view as expressed so coherently. To me it's the "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" idea. I'm a sometimes Christian and Buddhist, among other interesting faith traditions that I follow and blend on occasion.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

44. Faith is personal

And I believe you can blend together any faiths you want, as long as you believe in it. It doesn't matter if somebody else does.

[tkulesa]

47. $0.02

As a non-christian I don't have any reason to make distinctions between good christians or bad ones. As an overall general group Christians have a certain culture and political influence in the US. All "Christians" are going to be held accountable for that.

If some Christians don't like this and feel that the actions of the large majority of Christians don't actually represent Christianity that is an internal matter for Christians to address. Change your ranks and then come talk about it to the rest of us. Don't expect non-christians to go digging into your religion looking for the exceptions. Don't expect us to ignore what the majority of your bretheren are doing just because you don't participate. The internal makeup of Christianity is only a concern for Christians. The external effect of Christianity is what concerns the rest of us.

If you don't like this, sorry, but tough. It's just like black people can't ignore white racism just because some white people work for civil rights. This doesn't mean that there is automatic hostility against every white person (or Christian). But it does mean that you have to deal with the negative aspects of being in your particular group.

Therefore, anyone who bashes "Christians" probably understands that this doesn't mean all Christians, and isn't bashing all Christians, but at the same time it is perfectly valid to bash what "Christians" are doing. You may not like it, but it's based on what the majority of Christians are really doing.

You can argue that those wackos don't represent the majority of Christians, but if that's true then the majority of Christians are responsible for tolerating what those wackos are doing. Until you stop them from trashing the world in your religion's name you have some residual responsibility for letting them get away with it. All white people have some responsibility for the racism they tolerate and enable. All Christians have some responsibility for the religious fundimentalist they allow to poison our society and government.

[Blue_Chill]

Why would you post something like that here?

I'm getting curious, every time we have a thread about unity and coming together someone always shows up tries to screw that up.

I will say this about your post. It's offensive and I don't like it. I don't like your distorted views on race or religion.

[Blue_Chill]

63. dupe

..

[LynneSin]

81. for your 2 cents I'll give you my quarter's worth

What statistic do you have that a majority of the Christians are the "Bad Type".

They are the more vocal, but then again they've used their money to create fear which gains them more money and wealth. Why do you think the Media and Right-Wing politicians love to hook up with these vocal people. But I hardly doubt they're in the majority.


And the second question is why do you "expect non-christians to go digging into your religion looking for the exceptions". How about you just ACCEPT the fact that there are Christians out there that are trying to make a difference with our religon and I think from this post and others like it you're finding some without doing any digging whatsoever!!!


Almost 20 major faiths denounced the war when it happened. Eleven of those deminominations tried desperately to meet with Bush to discuss non-violent methods, including twenty leaders from his own United Methodist Church. The Media couldn't have been bothered with covering this story.

Churches who have vocally opposed the war include: The United Methodist Church, The Unitarian Universalists, The Roman Catholic Church, The Greek Orthodox Church, The Presbyterians, The Episcopalians, The United Church of Christ, The Quaker just to name a few of them all came out against the war. Too bad the news barely gave a mention of it except for what the Pope (Roman Catholic) said.

Stop digging, if you've made it this far in the post why not read what some of us progressive christians have to offer. Hey, we even have our own magazine http://www.sojo.com/ and on the most recent cover of Sojourners: Dangerous Religion: George W. Bush's theology of empire.

No one is asking you to convert, we're just hoping to have you as an ally in our struggle to get the message out that these religious fundies are just plain WRONG! One only needs to ask "What Would Jesus Do?" - Surely not hang out with the likes of Robertson and Falwell.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

97. Falwell's "Silent Majority" was neither.

And he ended up disbanding it, BTW. He and his ilk in no way represent true Christianity-- he's a perversion, and by his own terms, an abomination. As is Robertson.

I completely fail to understand why they are so frightened of life, that they would have such an intense need to try to bring a bloody end to civilization! God moves by His timetable, NOT by the words of any man. "No man shall know the day or the hour of my coming."

Let mankind find a way to live in peace and harmony. Christ The King will return when He is ready, not when Robertson wafts a prayer skyward demanding it!

And as I oppose what those perverted human garbage sacks are saying and doing, I don't feel obliged to allow you to cram me into the same "wacko" category as them. It makes me wonder exactly what category YOU reside in-- Bigot? Supremist? Elitist?

I wonder...

(Doesn't feel too good to be arbitrarily categorized, does it? But remember, if enough people say it about you, right or wrong, it could well end up being officially written down somewhere, and then you'd be stuck with an untruth attached to you. What goes 'round comes 'round...)

[Cheswick2.0]

126. KMA mr minority religious view

you are the one with the problem. What you don't realize is that Christians are actually the majority on the left too and most of us don't have time to give a shit if you tolerate us, lump us together or understand anything.

[liberalmuse]

49. From personal experience...

I've learned to avoid those proclaiming to be 'Christian'. I'm sure there are many kind people I've met who were Christian, only they didn't feel the need to let me know this. The ones who do are the ones I avoid.

[eric_schafer]

80. I know what you mean

I've known people who feel it imperative to let you know they're Christian right off the bat. They remind me of the verse that talks about those who hide their good works, and those who make sure their good works are seen by as many as possible.

[Blue_Chill]

52. Nice post and welcome

good to have you here.

[Generic Other]

56. "disparaging all followers of Jesus"?

When you belong to a religion that teaches doctrinal supremacy in this life and the next, you are really disparaging non-believers.

I find the concept of "eternal hellfire" and the condemnation of non-believers to be coercive and threatening. "Follow this path, be like us. Believe or you suffer eternally." No matter how saintly, how moral, how Christ-like a person tries to be, this judgment of those who express freewill exposes the flawed design of Christian theology.

Like most of the major religions, it uses fear to gain converts, and to control people's behavior. It does not allow one to respectfully agree to disagree.

And that is why we have these arguments on DU and everywhere else except in Sunday School where people like me by our own free choice are not represented.

I find that many Christians tend to be insecure, requiring constant validation of their beliefs. That the most vocal and intolerant Christians in this country seem to be Republicans does nothing to endear the more liberal of them to non-believers. Maybe that's why so many non-believers vote Democrat.

Some have pointed out that it is possible for non-believers to find 5 good Christians in Soddom and Gomorroh if they look hard enough. Yet those good Christians would condemn and exclude the good non-believer in this life and in the hereafter.

Apparently there is no good non-believer. Not good enough, anyway.

I have met good people who disappointed me when I discovered they were Christian. I did not condemn them eternally however. I just wondered why they judged and condemned me.

[eric_schafer]

67. that's a shame

Personally, I ignore what those sort of people have to tell me about my future, as it doesn't really fit in with my reality or my plans :)

On the other hand, I've known a fair number of Christians who don't necessarily believe that their way is the only way to heaven (or whatever). And then you have gnostic Christians who believe that "the kingdom of heaven" is attainable right here, right now and that those waiting for it in the afterlife are sorta missing the point.

So again, I can't see how describing Christians as some sort of monolithic entity is helpful.

[Cheswick2.0]

127. I must have missed the part where those good people condemned you

all I saw was lots condemnation on your part.

[DoYouEverWonder]

60. I think most people around here

can tell the difference between 'real' christians and fundie christians. Besides, you make a statement accusing DUers of 'lumping all christians together'? Would you like to point to some examples? I really don't think there are that many of the regulars around here would do that.

Besides, as a gnostic christian let me tell you about intolerance. Oh, you've don't know much about gnostic christianity? Don't feel bad, most people don't. Most of us got wiped out by about 400 AD.

Peace Be With You,
DYEW

[Blue_Chill]

66. There are many

regular and not. I'm not going to make a list because it would get me banned. I can advise you to pay attention.

Many of them have learned better and are now cool. Many haven't and will continue to spread hate.

[Terwilliger]

86. hate is displaying that cross

thats hate

[sujan]

91. its all about divide and conquer

why are they maddening at the fact that the other side they've persecuted for so long are just trying to beat them in their own game....

[AntiCoup2K4]

104. That is the single most ridiculous statement I've ever seen

...at least on THIS board.

[Terwilliger]

144. have you heard of the Spanish Inquisition?

Do you know why white folks in the south thought lynching a black person was acceptable?

Do you know why the Democratic party can't muster enough fortitude to challenge Republicans on their morality?

All because of your fucked up Christian bullshit. It's hogwash. Pedophile priests! It's fucking hogwash...why don't you understand?

[AntiCoup2K4]

147. Geez... spewing hate with a Marley quote in your signature......

what's wrong with this picture?

Lynching, pedophiles, and the Spanish Inquisition have nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Neither does global PNAC fascism.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair disappeared with millions of dollars defrauded from her atheist lobbying group. Does that mean all atheists are thieves??

It's as logical of a conclusion as any of yours in this thread.

[Blue_Chill]

106. ok

whatever you say ter.

[Terwilliger]

145. Blue_Chill

I say all of this to help

Jah show you the love light. Jah show you the way.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

134. Terwilliger, the cross symbol is yours

You can talk about the cross symbol as an explicit threat from a primitive imperial power, or you can talk about the cross as if it's a symbol of the martyred rebel reborn. Christianity, and Judaism and Islam and Hinduism, won't be eradicated in your lifetime. Why harrass the church ladies and scare them away from the Democratic party?

You people remind me of the English-only movement in California - you are so intolerant of other languages that you demand all official communication is in yours. It's like a bizarre academic crusade against the common language of God, Moses, Jesus, Christianity, and the ten commandments. Will you go after the Wiccan rede next? Why do you hate our symbolism so much?

Let's just show solidarity with each other, and fight against Bush and the Falwells and Pat Robertsons and the neo-cons and neo-liberals.

[Terwilliger]

146. hate your symbolism?

do you know what kind of repression it is to believe that this god bullshit is just that when the society is overwhlemingly deluded into believing in sky fairies?

It's astro-FREKIN'-nomical.

[Blue_Chill]

150. Give us examples

What has been done to you by the deluded masses, that hasn't been done to me.

I am a Hispanic Catholic living in Virginia. Let's see which one of us experiences more repression shall we?

[eric_schafer]

75. i've always been fascinated by gnosticism

the irony is that they got wiped out by the Christians! or at least the ones who in power at the time. but yeah, I've read Elaine Pagels and have a copy of the gnostic gospels. they're very "illuminating" :)

i would think a cursory read of this thread would absolve me from the need to point out examples, though. there's plenty to see.

[DoYouEverWonder]

100. Well maybe I'm just too tolerant

Over the years, I've gotten better at filtering that sort of thing out.

Unfortunately, intolerence of others who are different from ourselves seems to be part of the human condition throughtout history. I keep hoping that humanity will wake up and rise above that level. But until people realize that god is within them and not some being that is above or outside of them, we will continue to kill each other in the name of god.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

135. the gnostic Christian tradition is alive and well

The Catholics hate it, the Protestants hate it, but that's because they just can't admit where they came from.

[TahitiNut]

69. Jesus had dirty feet.

Y'know, when you walk around a lot in places where there are no modern sewage systems, places so trampled there's no grass, places where the dry, hot weather make it very dusty ... well, feet get pretty filthy and pretty much stay that way. (In most places in this world, things haven't changed all that much.)

Try walking into almost any 'Xtian' church unshaven with dirty feet shod in sandals. Count the number of people who:

1. "Advise" you in one way or another that you should bathe before being in their company.
2. Avoid you and, except for a surreptitious comment or facial expression, pretend you're an 'outsider'.
3. Offer to wash your feet for you.

Those of the third kind I'll call "Christians".

Would anyone care to guesstimate how many churches one would need to visit before finding one? Why not try it? :eyes:

Gandhi said, "We must be the change we wish to see in the world." But he wasn't a "Christian." Oh well. :shrug:


On edit: Oh, and FWIW ... I met one once. His name was Brian. (No shit.) It probably still is.

[scarletwoman]

125. Fascinating, TN -- your bringing up the washing of feet...

(Just riffin' on the whole foot washing/desert/middle eastern spiritual tradition thing here....)

I'm sure you must know that in Islamic tradition one removes one's footwear before entering either a mosque or a shrine. When I visited the Taj Mahal 21 years ago, we were required to remove our shoes/sandals and slip on paper footcoverings in order to enter the actual tomb building.

(The Taj Mahal being a shrine and legacy of the Mogul period of India, when India was ruled by Muslims -- descendants of the Mongol, Turkish, Iranian, and Afghan invaders of South Asia who invaded India in the early 16th century)

Ghandi also said that Western Civilization would be a "good idea"...

What confounds me most about Christianity is why does it cling so to the Old Testament, when He, who is the very Source and Heart of what Christianity proclaims to be, Himself proclaimed that He was bringing a NEW Law.

Would it not do Christianity, and the original teachings of the Anointed One, the greatest honor to wash it's own feet of the desert dust of an ancient tribal legacy, and heed the New Testament as sufficient teaching and spiritual guidance unto itself?

Shanti, Shalom, Saalem, Pax...

Namaste,
sw

[Cheswick2.0]

128. Jesus never said we should disreguard everything in the OT

In fact he quoted it quite often. Suggesting that all of the wisdom and beauty of the OT be discarded is not very enlightened.

For instance: Here is one that Paul Wellstone recited on 9-11. I remember how amazed I was that some people here got all bent out of shape that he was reciting that "christian" verse.......

Psalm 23
1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou annointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

BTW, I almost never find anything I need to be "confounded" about anything in other religions. I just accept and appreciate what I know about other beliefs.

[scarletwoman]

130. True, there are gems there most worthy of contemplation...

I was thinking in quite general terms, i.e. "God of Love" vs. "Vengeful, punishing God".

I mean no offense, I was raised Catholic where the New Testament was greatly emphasized over the Old Testament -- but it has been nearly 40 years since I left the Church.

As a Buddhist, I found new appreciation for the teachings of Jesus many years later. Much of what he was attempting to convey seems not at all unlike some of the Buddha's teachings.

I am of the viewpoint that the core of ALL spiritual traditions throughout the world carries very much the same message...

Peace,
sw

[TahitiNut]

131. I share that viewpoint.

The scenery's great. :*

[AntiCoup2K4]

136. "Christian verse"??

And all this time I thought David was Jewish?? If not, why did they name that star after him?

[TahitiNut]

133. It's a profound experience.

Either way. :shrug:

Yes, shoes are eschewed in a wide variety of traditions. For the last 20 years I've gone barefoot, sock-footed, or sandaled over 80% of the time -- mostly for "grounding". When I (I don't know what word to use here, maybe -) "inneract" I most often sit on the floor or ground. I really don't know why I mention this, other than (within the loose sense of this subthread) it's strikingly evident to me how much more appropriate it feels.

Namaste

[mumon]

94. THAT's a good post

One thing that really challenges my attachments- OK, can piss me off if I give free reign to that emotion- is the fact that these folks have hijacked the term "Christianity."

Many people who know squat about Christianity- alot of Chinese friends I know, ask questions like "Are Catholics Christians?" or only see Christianity through the lens of the fundamentalist-but-we're-nice-suburban-fundamentalists-and-by-the-way-don't-forget-to-vote-Republican Christianity, because that's the way the media - and their neighbors- portray it.

That said, I DO believe that the ideology of fundamentalist Christianity is fundamentally - pun intended- at odds with Buddhist practice, and therefore, inherently leads to greater suffering, unless inconsistently practiced, which thankfully many adherents do indeed do.

[JohnKleeb]

132. Eric thanks

I once almost became agnostic because of my confusion with chritianity honestly and now shamely I say it was because of a few bigots but seeing my family, my grandparents in particular how they behaved. I became Christian again, I am Catholic, but I do like the uniterians a lot too.