DU is being MEMED to Death... / Clark Camp Tactics to Divide & Conquer

[Tinoire]

Found this and wanted to share the tactics being discussed over on the Clark Blogs to weaken DUers' support for our candidates and strengthen support for Clark. It's an interesting read.

The Daily Meme, August 19, 2003

(Cross-posted at To The Point

Dean Lies and Rocks, Kerry Suffers and Slows, Clark Rises

<snipping TONS of good stuff DUers should read, especially Kerry and Dean supporters>

The mean Dean meme is still alive and well. Deaniacs are acting self-righteous as usual, insulting the latest threat, Wesley Clark, who is now increasingly problematic to the Dean mob/freep because the Clark is running for VP meme died so quickly.

Ominously for the Dean campaign, Dean doesn’t keep his word got a HUGE boost this week with Dean’s flipflop on campaign finance limits. The short story is that he pledged absolutely in March to hew to them, and then revealed this week that he’s considering not doing so. Deaniacs reacted testily to Dean’s, er, change of heart (obvious flipflop for political gain), adding to the Dean mob are a bunch of nasty stink-bomb throwers. (Dean Defense Forces people are cute and silly and mean).

<snip> A better meme to push is that Dean doesn't keep his word. Another meme to push is that the media doesn't like Kerry. That wins you props on the base.

<snip>

The Clark is actually possible meme – pushed by Calpundit, Yglesias, and Josh Marshall – overtook the Clark is running for VP meme. Clark is actually preferable is over on at Tapped and Political Aims, and among insiders who are parked in front of Kerry or uncommitted and scared of Dean. The resulting Deaniac hostility to Clark is manifested in their insistence that Clark doesn’t stand for anything, Clark’s wife doesn’t want him to run, and Democrats don’t like Generals. All of these memes are poor strategy memes to push if you wanted to defeat Clark. One, he obviously stands for a lot, and so saying that he doesn’t stand for anything just lowers the bar for him to hurdle. Two, the easy way to overcome the wife doesn’t want him to run meme is to, well, run. Three, Democrats do like military people, support our troops and all that. But beyond that, Michael Moore’s endorsement of Clark destroyed the military men are bad meme and made Clark the respectable non-joke non-weird non-creepy Kucinich. There are FOUR threads of Clark at Democraticunderground on Clark. Indeed, Clark is taking support from Dean’s left. Clark will make it safe to vote Democratic on national security is also growing. His slashing criticism of Tom Delay on Wolf Blitzer’s program resonated throughout the web; Clark is a fighter is overtaking Clark has no experience as a candidate. Beyond that, the Kentucky governor’s race, which is being nationalized and run as an explicit test of Bush’s leadership, as well as slipping support for Bush in South Carolina, has changed the Bush is vulnerable meme to an even stronger Congress might be in play for the Democrats meme. This is a staggering meme that will require a huge factoid, because redistricting is so obviously and severely against the Democrats for this election. The follow-up question of who has coattails hasn’t been answered, but Clark is a good bet to take this one because of really low unfavorables nationally.

<snip>


RISING MEMES

It’s a two man race between Dean and Clark.
The economy is reviving, so Bush will be reelected (this one isn’t necessarily true, but it’ll rise anyway).
Economy is reviving, but Bush doesn't deserve credit
Dean would make a great VP
Clark is the Democratic white knight (Clark’s entrance will be timed with press from very influential pubs that think this.)
The Democrats don't need a white knight because the economy is now the issue, not national security (This would be a good counter-meme)


Memes from Two Weeks Ago

Clark is running for VP - dying
Bush is unbeatable - dying
Condi will take the fall, not Tenet - what?
Dean cannot win the nomination - dead
Bush is vulnerable - gaining


Memes from Last Week

The Democratic insiders are against Dean
Anybody but Dean (ABD)
Bush is vulnerable
Dean is getting better at campaigning
Mean Dean
Dean Double Standard
Dean is not McGovern
Dean is not electable
Dean Mob/Dean Freep
The Dean and Lieberman Are Cooperating meme

Failed Meme of the Week: The Democrats are anti-Catholic:

Republicans are just being themselves
Republicans are the party of faith and values meme.
Republicans Turn into 'Rightists'
Condi will take the fall
Bush is vulnerable
Those cute Bush-haters are symmetrical to the cute Clinton-haters:

http://www.theclarksphere.com/archives/000047.html#000047

------------

[Jacobin]

1. Is this gonna be, like, a weekly summary of DU campaign posts?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

30. Great post Tinoire, I hope it's a weekly!

Interesting to compare the successful memes with the failed ones. Good point about Michael Moore pseudo-endorsing Clark, I never thought about Clark attacking from the left.

[WillyT]

40. Well, He's A General Ain't He, LOL ???

Get it, 'attacking from the left'... sort of a flank thing... oh, nevermind!

:evilgrin:

[DEMActivist]

2. Jeez...get over it already....

How many times are you going to post this garbage?

I'm a Dean supporter, but if Clark terrifies you so much, may I suggest you go running screaming from the room and get it over with already?

If you candidate can't stand on his own two feet, he should get the hell out of the race.

[Tinoire]

3. Hi RJ Funny you should talk about being terrified :)

If you don't care about tactics being used to weaken support for Democratic candidates we currently have, I do. Sorry. Put me on ignore if it upsets you. Some of us have concerns about a candidate who hasn't declared a party and has no verifiable postitions.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

11. You know full well this has nothing to do with Kucinich

Kucinich is the one I prefer but there are other Democratic candidates I will be able to vote for. I will do everything I can to prevent my country from sliding into a catastrophe which is exactly where we're headed right now.

You think the neo-cons are going to give up power that easily? If someone as bright as you can't put 2+2 together about an undeclared candidate, with no party affiliation and NO verifiable positions, being drafted by a committee made up of a Republican and a Democrat and drawing 1/3 Dem, 1/3 Rep, and 1/3 Ind support, then that's alarming.

This candidate has ties to Homeland Security, Jackson Stephens and his media relations are being managed by the same person who "managed the nation’s leading public-policy think tanks, the American Enterprise Institute" aka PNAC.

Those and many other things that have been discussed should set off warning bells on such an informed and progressive board, I would think.

This is an organized effort not to win, but to trash every other Democratic candidate out there. As a Dem, I have serious concerns.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. If Wes Clark Is A Neocon

why did he say that the invasion of Iraq without U.N. approval was the "greatest strategic blunder in American history"?

[Terwilliger]

20. because he wanted to start PNAC with the assent of the conquered

thats all

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Wow-You must be connected to know all this

Are you like a "made man" in the movie Goodfellas?

[Pepperbelly]

32. this poster tends ...

to use snarky sarcasm to conceal how little he actually knows as compared to the great deal he merely believes.

[Terwilliger]

66. You're a Clarky now?

sheesh! And you call me ignorant :eyes:

[Pepperbelly]

71. I have been watching your ...

drive by snark attacks for a while and had no reason to address them. But your posting characteristics are long standing and apparent to anyone who has read you.

Ta-ta.

[Terwilliger]

72. Poor Pepperbelly

always backing the wrong horse

[Pepperbelly]

76. thanks for

an example of exactly what I am talking about. Snarky sarcasm to conceal a lack of depth.

:toast:

But that way, if someone were to leap into the depths of your soul, they won't even get their feet wet.

It doesn't work forever, Ter. Nothing does.

[Darranar]

12. It isn't garbage...

It is simply showing the STUPIDITY of some of the pro-Clark stuff out there. Not all, some.

[Tinoire]

21. It's more than the stupidity - It's the coordinated weekly "memes"

that concern me.

And each "meme" was implemented at DU- taking turns with each candidate.

This allows them to use DU as a platform for what they need lurkers to read and carry away as "the progressive opinion" on the various candidates.

In 3 weeks, we can expect glowing reports about how Clark is the preferred candidate among progressives and the threads here will be used as proof.

And thanks for saying it's not garbage. I can't see all the comments since I'm using the ignore feature but I can imagine... :) Thanks

[sangh0]

174. Thanks Tinoire

I recognize a number of those memes. I appreciate your pointing them out

[bearfartinthewoods]

23. i'm not a Clark fan for the reasons you mentioned but you gotta admit

the idea of the Dean camp complaining about the Clark camp monopolizing the board is fucking hilarious.

[jono]

102. Agreed! (n/t)

[Terwilliger]

10. or give names and addresses of the people you dont like to the world

like you did?

Why did you do that DEMA? Was that something you got out of the good book?

[dfong63]

123. tell that to the clark worshippers

If you candidate can't stand on his own two feet, he should get the hell out of the race.

the Clark supporters are the ones you ought to be telling that to. oh, but Clark supposedly isn't "in" the race, yet. how convenient.

Tinoire didn't say s/he was "terrified", either. nice cheap shot, there.

for the record, i'm not terrified either, but i'm glad that Tinoire brought this manipulation to everyone's attention. i think it's one more reason to be skeptical of everything that comes from the pro-Clark camp. frankly the kind of tactics described in that memo, reminds me of Karl Rove or Ari Fleischer. there's way too much spin doctoring coming from that direction.

[Trajan]

4. I love you Tinoire ... but ....

Your out of your mind ....

Like MANY DUers: .. I have YET to make up my mind as to which candidate I will support: ... Clark is just ONE possibility out of a presumed ten ....

So: ... even though I 'support' Clark as a possibility, I support him as I support the OTHER Democratic possibilities .... I like Dean, I like Kerry, I like Gephardt, I like Mosely Braun, I like Kucinich, I like Graham, I like Liebermann, I like Sharpton ...

And I like Clark ....

Frankly: .... I resent your insults about Clark supporters .... your lame smears are wildly aimed and broadcast widely: capturing nearly EVERY democrat here who MIGHT consider Clark as a viable candidate ...

This really should stop ... disavowing a possible candidate is fair: ..... but smearing that candidates kindly and well meaning supporters is rude and unwarranted ....

[FubarFly]

9. Thanks ,Tinoire...

If Clarkies are using DU'ers as "liberal guinea pigs" to test new memes, then I believe this is information that should be brought to our attention.

[Tinoire]

22. Thanks FubarFly - I knew committed DUers would care n/t

[Darranar]

108. By the way, Tinoire...

I missed the thread titled "The Truth About Wesley Clark." Its buried somewhere in the old pages of the forum; do you have a link?

[Tinoire]

117. Here's that link

What You Need To Know About Wesley Clark
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=226326


Peace!

Btw, You are one amazing DUer!

[Darranar]

124. Thanks!

Very interesting.

[Trajan]

41. Once is ok ....

Fifty times is harrassment .....

[FubarFly]

51. First time I've seen this information.

And BTW, I don't equate certain overzealous Clark supporters with Wesley Clark.

If you don't like the message, please don't blame the messenger.

Tinoire has the right the speak her mind, and you have the right to ignore her if you wish.

[G_j]

127. yep, thanks Tinoire

being an adult, I can handle it.
No need to shelter me from this stuff. :think:

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Trajan]

47. Many of those ....

who might consider Clark as a viable candidate do NOT participate in any vicious rhetorical attacks or the dissemination of pure propaganda ....

Yes: ... "Kindly and well meaning" defines THAT group ....

And yes: ... your constant attacks against ANY and ALL Clark supporters on these grounds is rude and insulting .....

[Jacobin]

24. Don't worry. Nobody is listening

Whoever runs against Smirk (except of course for Lieberman) will get the full support of the vast majority of those on this board

[Tinoire]

67. Insults? Not an insult in there- It's a repro of the Clark tactic blog

So if you found any insults in there, you're addressing your complaints to the wrong person.

So who's smearing whom here Trajan? Who's calling people x or y and gloating at the successes of the weekly memes?

I think those are the people you should be concerned about especially when you KNOW because you saw the threads, and in them responded with this same outrage towards the messenger, that traffic was directed here with the purpose of implementing these "memes". And you've seen the results.

I simply happen to care that whoever WE THE PEOPLE decide WE WANT to be our nominee is the one who gets it.

This is America. Be leary of slick marketing campaigns where products are pushed on the consumers.

If a product we can't test, can't verify, has to be pushed down our throats as aggressively as it is being pushed here then the following scenario, listed in the same place, does NOT sit well with me. I fought Monsanto for pushing GMOs down our throats and you can be certain that I'm not going to roll over meekly when the future of my country is at stake and at such a critical time in world history!


MAP OF CLARK'S ANNOUNCEMENT STRATEGY: First Clark muses on the issue of the Presidency and waits for a groundswell. Then the groundswell arises. Then he considers the rest of the field and his family situation. The rest of the field provides an opening. His family is convinced. The opening remains. Clark tests messaging on the cable circuit. The messaging resonates. The opening widens. Clark decides to run. There is excitement. Clark tells insiders he's running. The opening remains. Those insiders drop hints. (YOU ARE HERE) More hints emerge. It becomes an open secret. The opening widens. There is a big announcement with gravitas followed by endorsments.

http://www.theclarksphere.com/archives/000049.html

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. You Can Be Our Resident Archivist

I'm impressed....

[blm]

8. I'm impressed, too. That's alot of work, Tinoire.

I believe that the GOP has operatives in EVERY campaign. Some have more plants than others. They've done it every election. If they did put them in with the Clark people than that would just be typical of what they do with any Dem campaign.

[Pepperbelly]

7. why are you so freaked out over what a lame-assed blog says?

To call these people the "Clark camp" is insulting. These folk clearly don't have a clue how politics operates and I guarantee you they are doing this on their own accord and speak for absolutely no one but themselves. If you get this hysterical over internet crap that ANYONE could write without any authority from anyone.

Hell, it could even be written by a Dean supporter pretending to be a Clark supporter. How can you possibly know?

:evilgrin:

Just as a caution because I have always liked you but histrionics could definately erode your considerable credibility.

[Terwilliger]

oh come on!

You are not that dense, are ya? How the hell do you possibly know?

This could be coordinated by Clark's PR consultant. Can you prove otherwise? Why are you saying Tinoire's wrong? She's got the facts and the idetic memory to back up what she says. What have you got Pepperbelly? Ignorant arrogance? Freeperish loyalty to the Democratic party? What?

[Pepperbelly]

27. Terwilliger ...

that has to be one of the goofiest tirades I have ever heard you make.

Good God in heaven, any asshole can do a blog. In fact, many assholes do blogs. As someone who relies on internet anonymity, you should acknowlege that no one has a clue who these people are but I will guarantee you this: if it is connected to DraftClark, I will put a bug in Wesley's ear about the total cluelessness of those folk to make sure that they don't get any closer to his organization than watching it on CNN.

[Trajan]

54. Sheeesh ....

"Could be" ????

COULD be ? ...

Cmon: .... you justify insulting your fellow DUers on what COULD be a maybe might be ? .....

Sounds like justification for Preemptive war ..... a Neo-Straussian meme .....

Could be = must be ...... right ?

[Terwilliger]

70. not at all

but Pepperbelly was sure this was all bullshit...well he cannot POSSIBLY prove that...I'm just trying to get some balance in

[cosmicdot]

35. PB, blogs are linked from the draftclark2004 website

http://www.draftclark2004.com/links.asp

'get the word out' is a clear website directive ... if something is out of control, then W.Clark should reign things in ... don't'cha think?

I think what we're seeing is the methodology, the way, the style ... whatever one wishes to call it ... to get things going and in motion -- it's cyber frenzy time ...

I don't think the purpose of this thread has anything to do with the 2 feet of any of the current candidates ... which seems to be suggested at each turn; futher, it's suggested that "your candidate" should get out of the race ... what's that about?

Have there been any correlation between the linked menes, and what thread themes have been seen at DU ? - if not, fine ... if so ... then, that's something that we should be aware of.

Think of it as a caveat emptor -- the customers are asked to take heed.

what exactly does 'steal this code' mean?

[Pepperbelly]

39. if the people at DraftClark are ...

supporting this sort of sophomoric bullshit, perhaps I need to put a bug in Wesley's ear to keep them as far away from him as he possibly can because all they would do to a campaign is fuck it up.

[WillyT]

48. Well That's It, Isn't It Pepper ???

Since this started out as a 'draft' movement by people who want to see him enter the race, how much say does General Clark really have in what is being done in his name at this point???

If he's gonna declare, he ought to do it soon, so he can get ahold of this wagon before it runs away from him!!!

Peace! :shrug:

[Pepperbelly]

53. if he has convinced ...

his wife Trudy to go for it, and if he is listening to Bill Clinton, he has some crakerjack pollsters looking at it carefully right now to see if it is doable. If it isn't, he won't do it. Why start a fight if you can't finish it.

[WillyT]

63. Right On !!! --- BTW - I Just LOVE Zippy, And May Be Voting For Him...

Depending on how this election year goes !!!

BTW II - As a Dean supporter, I have no problem with Clark joining the fracas, and would love to see him up there debating the others.

Peace!

[Tinoire]

84. LOVE YOU Cosmicdot! Steal this code means use this template!

I think it means "here, download this template with our blessing and you too can have a web-site looking just like this".

More meme stuff ;)

But THANK YOU for showing this links straight back to the Draft Clark site!

DUers ALWAYS come to the rescue and fill in missing pieces :hi:

[Tinoire]

186. What else to call it? Wish I had a better word but

it was the best I found at the time. I figured DUers would understand since that's what we've been calling candidates' supporters.

Before posting that I did check to make sure this wasn't garbage and I checked to make sure Matt Stoller, the author was a Clark supporter. In his own words, he is "well, obsessed with Clark and the Clark movement".

Thank you for your kind concern; I've never been overly concerned with other people think of me because it just gets in the way; I don't have any personal vendetta or agenda- just extreme concern at how we handle this most critical election. I just found out recently that you're Clark's cousin and I really wish no one had told me that because I know such posts would bother me if our places were reversed. Out of respect for you, I will make an extra effort to be more sensitive but it would be great if you could reciprocate and somehow let him know that someone needs to step forward, take charge and reign this type of stuff in.

[lanlady]

13. what does "meme" mean?

I'm behind the times. In French it means "same."

[Wonk]

16. Contagious ideas, basically. Now you've been exposed to the meta-meme.

http://www.memecentral.com/

[Pepperbelly]

18. latest buzz phrase ... I yawn at it ...

from dictionary.com

meme ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mm)
n.
A unit of cultural information, such as a cultural practice or idea, that is transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another.

I yawn at it. Buzz phrases make my testicles hurt.

[Wonk]

25. Richard Dawkins coined the term in his book "The Selfish Gene" in 1976. nt

[FubarFly]

26. Then you ask your fellow Clark supporters to stop using them.

For your testicles sake.

[Pepperbelly]

37. I don't even know that the ...

neophytes wring this blog are Clark supporters, much less have any control what some teenager pecking away at a keyboard in their bedroom writes.

[FubarFly]

56. Fair enough....

But if I saw this kind of crap coming out of the Dean camp, I would raise holy hell. That's just me.

And IMHO, this isn't some teenager pecking away in their bedroom. This blog suggests that there is a coordinated effort to infiltrate and affect opinion here at DU, and respectfully, I think it's disingenuous for you not to at least address that point.

[Pepperbelly]

68. what?

Do you think I approve of it or something?

Holy shit, it is the dumbest crap I have seen in a while and I sincerely hope that whoever is doing it reads my words when I say that they very clearly do not have a fucking clue how to win office and unless their intent is to harm their candidate, they should just fucking stop it.

It is sophomoric and beneath even Donald Segretti. Neopphyte ramblings because no candidate with any chance of first tier offices would have someone doing that for them. Not with their knowledge. But speech is free and these people own their own organization and if their intent is to help Wesley right into defeat, I cannot stop them.

[FubarFly]

82. Thanks for your response.

I've always respected your POV, and find your support of Clark to be sincere. I don't encourage people to judge a potential candidate based on the bad behaviour his supporters. I think a candidates virtues are much better represented by an enthusiastic supporter such as yourself. Your condemnation of this nonsense means something to me for that very reason.

[TLM]

31. It is the new term for sound byte or talking point...

and this is a group trying to push talking points and sound bytes to promote clark by attacking other candidates.

[farmbo]

151. Clarkies can use "meme"...but Dean & Kerry will stick with "ideas"

EOM

[ibegurpard]

14. Doesn't surprise me.

Can't say I like it but what can you do?
:shrug:

[Generic Other]

17. Me me me me me....

Did someone step on the cat's tail?

Who sings this stuff anyway? What a cacophony.

By convention day, they'll have succeeded in making us hate them all.

[VolcanoJen]

19. This is great, thought-provoking stuff, Tinoire.

And thanks for posting it. It's equal, and dare I say fair and balanced? :-)

Further evidence that we eat our own, I suppose.

:-(
Jennifer

[Pastiche423]

29. Eat our own?

Who says Clark is our own? He certainly hasn't.

[VolcanoJen]

34. Oh, I'm sorry. Was this an anti-Clark post?

I guess I didn't see it that way. I was being positive and thanking Tinoire. Pardon me.

[Pastiche423]

42. My comment meant

that clark is not our own to "eat".

[Trajan]

58. LMFAO ....

You realize that when you SNAPPED : ... "EATING OUR OWN ????" ... you then were eating your own .... right ? ...

Sheeeesh: .. the salivating pack of Anti-Clarkists have dripping fangs for ANY passersby saying a nice hello ......

Lets get out while we still have our heads ....

[Pastiche423]

69. Wrong

I was not eating anyone.

I have no drippings fangs, actually I have no fangs at all. But I do have a major problem w/what has been going on, on this board regarding a non-candidate.

[Tinoire]

74. lol! I understood exactly what you meant! Thanks again :) n/t

[VolcanoJen]

78. I truly was being sincere, Tinoire.

This is a very interesting, provocative post that I read with great interest. I remain undecided but am watching the potential Clark candidacy with great interest.

I appreciated your post. Seriously!!!

Sigh... the cynicism around here is very tiring. I think I'll go watch the MTV Awards now.

:-)
Jennifer

[TLM]

38. Exactly... i wonder if CLark's whole deal is just BS...

if he'll stall and stall and then announce he won't run... or run and drop out just to split the support base.

I just can;t trust a guy who still won;t say if he's a dem or ind.

[Pepperbelly]

43. statements such as yours ...

questioning the sincerity of my candidate will make supporting your candidate a bitter pill to swallow if he does manage to win. I submit that statements such as yours and the paranoid rantings evidenced on this thread all serve the purpose of further splitting the party and making it that much more difficult to mend it for the general.

Like I am going to want to be in the same camp as those who insult my candidate and me on a daily basis ...

[Pastiche423]

52. Clark is not a candidate

[Pepperbelly]

62. so because of that ...

the people who support Clark should be marginalized and the person they prefer the victim of tons of crazed, paranoid slanders and not have a bad taste left in their mouth if the slanderer's candidate succeeds?

So what will you guys say then? "Come join us! We think you're fucked up and ignorant but hey, come support our guy!"

As a supporter of Clark, I have never participated in bashing a single candidate yet every fucking day I am assulted by COUNTLESS bashing threads based on absolutely nothing but paranoid fantasies. And when this is all over and a nominee is selected, how can you expect whole hearted support from the people that have been bashed and marginalized?

[Pastiche423]

77. I was correcting your

"my candidate". Clark is not a candidate. Get it?

As to slander, please point it out to me.

[Pepperbelly]

79. have you not read the threads ...

on everything from Pristina to Waco?

Some crazed allegations filled those catfights based on very little except paranoid ideation and fantasy. When people assert things that are not true, I supose since this is a written medium, libel would be more appropriate.

The big gorilla sitting in the middle of the room is how people in the Dean camp can expect those that they bash to line up behind their man in the general if they do everything they can in the primaries to eviscerate their opponents.

[never cry wolf]

94. Chill dude

I agree with a posted above who respects your POV and also feel your support is sincere. What you have been seeing, IMHO, is the reaction of many on DU who are tired of the semi-newbie Clard invaders who have been somewhat rude, pushy and dare I say, petulant. I do not include you in this group.

However, most here have been bashed by someone with a Clark avatar in the past few weeks and now are conditioned to be wary. C'mon, we're teammates here. We can discuss and debate without getting personal, Clark, Anti-Clark, Dean, Anti-Dean, Kuchinic, Kerry, Al, Carol, Dick, and the others my brain cramps do not allow my fingertips to remember at the moment.

[Pepperbelly]

100. this will be my last post on this thread because ...

my computer locks up when threads get too long.

However ...

Why is it that the ones who should chill are the ones who are so often attacked? Rather than chiding me for reacting to the paranoid rantings of some, would it not work to perhaps not support, overtly or tacitly, the behavior about which I complain?

Last ... so many here want to hold Wesley Clark responsible for whatever bad behavior that has been evidenced by some of his hotheaded "supporters". Why is it any different to hold Dean, Kerry, or Kucincich responsible for the actions of their sometimes hotheaded supporters. It just smells of a double standard.

[never cry wolf]

107. Hopefully you will take one last look

I certainly did not mean to condone the flaming you have gotten unfairly just because of the Clark avatar and I am sorry I did not address that point more clearly. I was talking to all when I said we can support without getting personal, including non-clark supporters. I also do not judge Clark on the basis of what I have seen some over zealous supporters here do.

Please accept my apologies.

[Ripley]

57. Hey Zippy, join the club.

I know how you feel. As a Dean supporter I feel the same way...go look at P&C and count how many Dean-bashes there are by Kerry, Clark and Kucinich fans.

However, I vow to swallow the pill and even vote for whomever comes out ahead next year.

It won't make me hate these folks, but I sure don't have a lot of respect for their opinion on anything else now.

Don't lump me in with the mean Dean people.

[Tinoire]

45. Thanks -- Yes,,, the evidence of

how we're being played in a very organized manner and how easily it's being done. I thought it was distressing because I've never seen anything like this on ANY of the other candidate blogs, campaign sites, discussion forums yet this is all over :(

[TLM]

33. Thanks for posting this....

good to know what the clark camp is trying to pull.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Don't You Think You're A Bit Paranoid

Everybody is trying to spin everybody else...

[WillyT]

36. Wow Cassandra, You Certainly Know How To Stir Things Up, LOL !!!

I for one appreciate the heads-up. It's important to keep one's finger on the pulse of what forces are arraying around you. I'm not sure this is so much of an 'evil plot' as much as a discussion of what is working, and what is not.

However, I DID take note of the virulence and speed with which Tinoire was attacked here (even by a DUer sporting a Clark avatar), and Shakespeare's words, "Me thinks thou does protest to much." come to mind.

Take Tinoire's info in what ever measure of usefulness you think appropriate. It may be anything from idle discussion, to dirty tricks plotting. Jury's still out, no???

BUT... While I know what Republican partisans are capable of in their quest for power, I am now just coming to realize that I don't know what Democratic partisans are capable of in their quest!!!

Time, and this message board, will tell!!!

:grr::nuke::mad:

[Darranar]

46. Good job, Tinoire!

Wesley Clark isn't the hero for the Democrats that many make him out to be.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. This Board Is Cracking Up!

Be afraid....


Be very afraid....


I expect Jason to be showing up soon.

[Darranar]

55. Yes, I'm afraid...

I'm afraid of a DINO getting elected, and I'm more afraid of a "candidate" whose supporters savagely attack other candidates and don't concentrate much on removing Bush.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. I Haven't Declared A Candidate

and I believe my comments have been 95% positive.

The only thing I find more amusing than the intramural squabbles on this board is the rampant paranoia.

[Trajan]

75. DINO ? ...

What we know of Clark's positions on policy is that he is SOLIDLY in the progressive camp: .... I wont go over them ....

"Savagely attacks other candidates" ? ....

How many do that ? ...

HOW many, as a PERCENTAGE of total DUers who consider a Clark candidacy a VIABLE possibility wage "SAVAGE ATTACKS" against other candidates ? ..

Out of 30000 DUers: .... name TEN posters who support Clark AND 'savagely attack other candidates' ..... I KNOW some do ..... but name TEN here ...

Out of 30000 DUers: ... Even if only TEN PERCENT considered Clark a viable Candidate for the Democratic party, that would be 3000 DUers who would consider a Clark candidacy viable ...

Now: ... 10/3000 * 100 = .33 % ....

Do you understand ? ...

That is ONE THIRD of one percent of all DUErs who MIGHT support a Clark candidacy AND 'Savagely attack other candidates' actually form the group which you despise ....

Yet ? .... you attack ALL those who 'support Clark', whether they actually 'savagely attack other candidates' or not ....

Is IT fair to insult what may be TEN percent of DUers for the prewsumed sins of a mere .33 % of those supporters, or for the sins of .033 % of ALL DUErs ? ....

These smears against Clark supporters are unjustified and CLEARLY out of line ....

Have some self respect ... some decency ... and STOP attacking every possible Clark supporter as if they are rabid animals ....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. Hate Is

Corrosive. It destroys the container as well as the object.

[Darranar]

86. Excuse me...

I don't "hate" many people in the political arena, aside from neocons like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Ashcroft, and the like. Pat Buchanan, Ann Coulter, and David Duke should be added to that list as well.

I don't hate Wesley Clark. I don't hate those who support him, either. If he wins the nomination, I will support him as the Democratic candidate for 2004.

[Darranar]

85. First of all...

I wasn't speaking of DUers, I was speaking of the website in question.

The only issue in which we KNOW Clark's position is the Iraq war. Pat Buchanan is against the Iraq war, too. I wouldn't support him, perhaps not even against Bush.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. For instance we know Wes Clark

is pro choice


is pro affirmative action


is anti Bush tax cuts


is pro gay rights.


is a multilateralist


I'll support the horse that can beat *

That's not bad for starters...

[Darranar]

88. How do you know?

Perhaps it has changed since the last time, I checked, but I saw a number of quotes that could have easily been taken out of context enlarged greatly to show a progressive platform. I could probably do the same for Bush.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. He Said It On Crossfire (a-n-d)

I'm sure an enterprising DUer can provide a transcript.

and

I'd be suprised if you could find a quote from Bush opposing his own tax cuts.

[Darranar]

97. I'm sure I could...

but it would likely be a quote against tax cuts for the rich, used while defending his own.

[Wonk]

109. I think you're referring to his 8/1/03 appearance? Link here.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/01/cf.00.html

(snip)

NOVAK: General Clark, how would you vote -- if you were president of the United States -- I'm sorry -- would you pass -- would you sign the partial-birth abortion bill, which is about to be passed by Congress?

CLARK: I don't know whether I'd sign that bill or not. I'm not into that detail on partial-birth abortion. In general, I'm pro-life -- excuse me, I'm pro-abortion rights.

CARVILLE: General, are you a Democrat?

CLARK: I've not declared that I'm a Democrat yet.

mp3 quicktime

[Forkboy]

111. well...that sure fills me with confidence

[Darranar]

114. Against the tax cuts...

anti-war, pro-choice. That's all I saw. He adopts a cowardly position on gay rights.

[Pastiche423]

90. How do you know those things?

Because you read it on a web site that is not affliated w/Clark? Does Clark even have a web site of his own where he states his stances on issues?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

99. He Called Me On The Phone

so I could be his mime,errrrrrrrrrr, I mean meme on Democratic Underground.

[Pastiche423]

106. So, IOW

you don't know where he officially stands.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. I just told you Wes Called me

I'm his official meme.....


I get paid in six packs...

I demand the best....


Miller....

[Forkboy]

118. Your non answers actually say a lot

none of it good.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

128. Go To The Various Websites That Are Promoting A Clark Candidacy

I stand by my account....


Life is too short to rebut all the playa hatas


Don't hate the playa...


Hate the game....

[Pastiche423]

131. What is the use

in going to the Clark web sites, when they are not affliated w/Clark? That makes no sense.

[Tinoire]

133. Pastiche- as usual- you just get to the heart of things! n/t

:thumbsup:

[xequals]

49. It's probably the Dean camp

they're the ones who are the most:

young and computer savvy
organized on the Internet
have a pop idol like obsession for their candidate

I just don't think a Clark operative would be that stupid to post that stuff on a public website/weblog.

[hedda_foil]

60. Ooooh! The "It's probably the Dean camp" meme.

Guess what? It's not. But thanks for trying.

[Tinoire]

81. Click on the link. Read the other weekly reports

Scratch around in there. There's tons of good stuff.

Nobody made this up. And there are plenty more like it.

The beauty of pretending the "Draft Clark" movement is a grass-roots effort even though, never mind it's in my sig line, is that you can direct everything from behind the scenes while totally disassociating yourself from the movement.

Somebody needs to step forward and either take responsability for this thing or control the mob because I ain't buying the "mob got out of hand" story.

A clever but not unknown tactic.

[never cry wolf]

61. Thanks Tinoire

Sorry to see flaming going on over this, from good DUers too, from what I have gathered over the last month or so. It did seem as if there were a "Clark" invasion when the rumors started and many were semi-rude. I was not on DU for the Dean invasion so I cannot compare. If there is a concerted effort to sway this community I, for one, would like to be aware of it.

I lean to Dean but have not yet decided upon which one of our fine candidates I will vote for in the primary. Here in Illinois we are so late that it rarely matters anyway. BUT, I do know who I will vote for come November '04, ABB!!! Lets all please remember why we are here and keep in mind Will's thread, "I Love These Candidates." Let's not let infighting take our eyes off the prize, the repukes would love nothing better.

[Darranar]

I agree...

with all the candidate-bashing going along, we must keep in mind that our goal should be defeating Bush, regardless of who's nominated.

[WillyT]

73. I Agree Steviet, And Thanks For The Moment Of Sanity !!!

:bounce::kick::bounce:

[Tinoire]

89. I can't see half the flaming ;) Technomania / jobs posting to forums

I began exercising my DU-given right to use the ignore list last week and it's working more beautifully than I ever dreamed.

You ask about the Dean thing, I pointed this out repeatedly, and again last night, the Dean threads that caused all the ruckus were, with VERY FEW exceptions, posted by total newbies in classic hit and run operations. They'd drop their bait and practically vanish leaving the Dean camp here to take all the hits.

I will bet you money, that those were NOT Dean supporters and that somewhere on some blog, people were laughing their heads off silly as our Dean supporters were left to face the wrath of other candidate's suporters.

Ever hear of companies like this one? The scary thing is that they even exist... and if they exist, that means people use them. So my questions are is anyone using such services, and if so, who's paying?

Someone, not me, called C-Span the other day, complaining about paid operatives on political boards. If you need the link I can find it. How wide-spread is this?

Money can buy you elections in this country...
---------------------------

Advertising - Online branding, banner ad creation, placement & analysis, strategic link placement, channel advertising, directory placement

Promotional Marketing - Electronic Direct Marketing (EDM), direct opt-in e-mail and viral communications, search engine submission, bulletin board posting, newsgroup and chat room posting, guerilla marketing, permission marketing, online newsletters

Public Relations - online promotions, proactive media relations, news releases, crisis communications, activation and mobilization

Research - competition monitoring, market research, news group monitoring, Internet trends monitoring, site evaluation, site traffic monitoring, site analysis, and site reporting

Technology - site hosting, site optimization, database integration

http://www.technomania.com/onlinemarketing.asp

[never cry wolf]

104. No need for the links, I read both threads when they happened

The technomania one and the one about the call to CNN. Maybe what we have been seeing here with regards to Clark is the same or similar to what happened with Dean, and the long time DUers who legitimately support Clark are left to take the brunt of the reaction. I just posted something similar above to Pepperbelly before I even read your post about what happened on the Dean thing.

I am willing to give most Clark supporters the benefit of the doubt, especially the ones with many posts who actually have a cogent thought. But what I have seen recently did seem like a concerted effort and I again thank you for pointing that out. Generally, I have just been ignoring the candidate posts, I'd rather investigate on my own rather than have someone try to sway me one way or another.

[Tinoire]

122. Agreed!

There are Clark supporters here who have been here a long time and are good people. One is even a personal acquaintance and one of the loveliest women you could imagine. I'm honestly pained at the thought that I have probably offended old-DU-type Clark supporters because that was never my intention.

There are similarities with what happened to the Dean camp. This is going to be an interesting and ugly season. 2004 can't get here fast enough, I think; I'm not even sure about that now! It all depends what 2004 brings us! Here's to the best because we're going to need it!

Peace

[never cry wolf]

149. Peace backatcha

Let those who want to fight for their candidate do it cleanly and with respect for the others, many of them may very well be in the next administration or veep. Once we have a nominee, we all unite against the unmentionable one.

I hope the same for the candidates, fight hard but clean and respectfully. I wish they would have a solidarity conference of some sorts before the campaigning starts in earnest. Have all aknowledge their devotion to removing the repugs and taking our country back. Every single negative they use on each other you can be sure will come up in the big show. Rove & Co. have a big wedge waiting for even the smallest of cracks.

[Isome]

64. Great heads up...

But, it doesn't necessarily prove that Clark supporters are responsible. While there may be Clark supporters who have fallen for the scam (just as his non-supporters have fallen for it) it doesn't prove conclusively that disinformation & smear is Clark's modus operandi.

It can just as easily be construed as an attempt to smear Clark before he decides (or declares) his candidacy.

Now that we know there's an orchestrated effort to publicize political allegations against the candidates perceived as threatening, we're all armed with a more critical eye with which to view those allegations.

[sujan]

65. excellent job Tinoire

a voice of reason....

[legin]

80. Basically

Now that the internet is mainstream thanks to it being made utterly obvious where Dean was getiing his campaign funds from and the fact that he lifted off thanks to the internet, we now have a new situation to deal with.

When a candidate used to run for office he used to work the talk shows, have fund raising/campaign meetings, adverts on the tele and printed material, now he/she has to work the internet as well.

So now not only do we have to worry about freepers dropping in to stir things, we will have other groups with their agendas. What the hell we're experienced we'll cope.

It will pay to keep an eye on this because it's a new field so that the attempts will be fairly unsofisticated at first, which will give us a good bee-line on dealing with the more sofisticated versions that will come in the future.

[legin]

98. I suppose we will need a name for them

Taking the C from campaigning instead of the F from freeper could give us a creeper.

Also there is CREEP, the campaign to re-elect the president in Nixon's time.

Although at least if you call someone a freeper and he is not, then at least he is only insulted because you called him a freeper, however if you decide to shorten things and call someone a creep that could get incendary.

:shrug:

[legin]

113. Other tries

They are sort of a troll so taking the C from campaigning gives us a croll which doesn't really work at all.

There was a thread over the other side about the 10 Commandments and someone said it would be replaced by "kneel to Zod" with a picture from the film Superman.

I quite like the word 'a zod', 'zoding' the verb isn't quite as good though.

[w4rma]

91. Clark folks need to take some things into account (run a positive primary)

If Clark runs he may not want to abide by the federal matching funds limits, either. So attacking Dean on this will hurt Clark.

If Dean picks Clark as VP, attacking Dean hurts Clark's ticket in the general election. Same for Kerry. (This is one reason *I* won't attack Gen. Clark, btw.)

Push your candidate. Don't tear other candidates down. Tearing other candidates down doesn't help your own when they have to go against SmirkCo and his 200+ million dollars in big buisness funding between now and September.

IMHO, if you want to make inroads with DUers, beat up on Bush and be gracious towards other Dems.

[Pepperbelly]

103. I cannot believe that you posted this!

"IMHO, if you want to make inroads with DUers, beat up on Bush and be gracious towards other Dems."

First, of course, I have been here pretty much from the beginning and "making inroads" is not my objective so much as enjoying the board and obtaining tons of good info from it. Second, rather than chiding Clark supporters, shouldn't you first look at the people in youw own camp who start Clark-bashing threads one after the other? I think that if you did that, the statement might have more credibility.

[w4rma]

120. I agree, Pepperbelly. I shouldn't have singled out Clark supporters

, although this thread is about Clark supporters, a few supporters of all the candidates are reaching for mud to sling.

[blm]

121. Wish you had advised Dean back when he was attacking

the other candidates to set himself apart. A centrist calling more liberal Dems "Bushlite"...what a shame. What a lie.

[w4rma]

126. Back when other candidates were indirectly calling him "soft on defense"

So, don't tell me that the other candidates were innocent of this.

[blm]

138. Two months AFTER Dean started it.

Jan 23 to be exact.

No reciprocation for two months. No one wanted to go negative. Dean got in the first twenty punches, even while Kerry was recovering from cancer surgery. DOCTOR Dean piled on.

[w4rma]

144. The other candidates thought they could ignore Dean.

Didn't work out that way. blm, IMHO, you really should quit smearing candidates. Build your own up. Don't tear others down.

[blm]

146. I don't smear candidates.

I hold Dean's own political words and deeds up. I say nothing about his personal life, his physical characteristics, or repeat any false report about him.

The other campaigns did NOT want to go negative. Heard it firsthand from a Dem party chair.

[democracyindanger]

92. Perfect example of why you can't trust

other people's synopses. Tinoire starts by telling you what Tinoire wants you think this stuff is about:

"Found this and wanted to share the tactics being discussed over on the Clark Blogs to weaken DUers' support for our candidates and strengthen support for Clark."

So from the get go, we're all led to believe everything in the piece is a 'tactic' for Clark supporters to follow in order to peel off supporters from other camps.

The thing is, that isn't true. Upon careful reading, it's so NOT true that it comes close to being an outright lie. But considering the paranoid tones of Tinoire's posts when it comes to Clark, I'll assume it was merely Tinoire seeing what Tinoire wanted to see.

At this point, it'd probably be good to show everybody the very introduction of the entire blog:

"Welcome to the third edition of the Daily Meme, a guide to what's going on online and which memes, or 'viral blog sound bites', are powerful. The interpretation here is of course subjective, but it's based on which memes gather the most responses in comment boards on popular blogs. The Daily Meme author has also deeply drunk of the Clark Kool-Aid, so beware. To subscribe, email matthewnstoller at yahoo.com"

That's a quite a big, important part to leave out, dontcha think? It's an "interpretation," in fact, an admittedly "subjective" one. And because he admits that he has "deeply drunk of the Clark Kool-Aid," he clearly knows that non-Clark supporters will be reading his blog. But wait, aren't these supposed to be marching orders for Clarkies? Why would they be giving away their secret plans to disrupt other people's campaigns?

Simple: They wouldn't.

But what about the "A better meme to push is that Dean doesn't keep his word...That wins you props on the base." Isn't that a message to Clark supporters? No, actually, that's advice to the Kerry camp. In fact, it's in a section about the Kerry campaign, not the Dean campaign, and if you read the entire piece IN CONTEXT any reasonable person will see how those sentences are misrepresented.

Especially examine the final reader comment at the bottom, "The Dean campaign has been so brilliant thus far that it has become Exhibit #1 for why Dean ought to be the nominee. Dean and his staff have outclassed the rest of the field in every respect: fundraising, building a base, innovative use of technology..."

GREAT ALACRITY! Is that a Dean supporter? Quick, somebody tell him that this blog is merely a diabolical plan to destroy the Dean and Kerry campaigns!

Get real, folks. This blog is a trendwatch, nothing more, nothing less. Put the tinfoil down and back away, slowly.

[Darranar]

95. There are differing opinions...

the poster isn't pro-Dean, he's pro-Clark. He's supporting dean as a sort of secondary candidate.

[democracyindanger]

101. I'm assuming you mean

'Peter Jung,' the very last poster in the comment section. That's his entire quote, BTW. Tell me what I missed. How does Jung saying "Dean ought to be the nominee" tell you that he's pro-Clark?

Or are you talking about me, rather than addressing me directly?

[Darranar]

105. No...

I'm talking about the comments above it.

Anyway, anyone can post on that. Pro-dean people can, you can, I can.

[democracyindanger]

110. And that's one of my points

If this is what Tinoire and others believe it is, then a) Why would Clarkies be putting up their strategies on a public board--at the very least they'd do it through a locked board or private email--and b) Why doesn't the pro-Dean reader 'Peter' call them on it? Is he dense? Some sort of double-secret-reverse political agent? Or does he, having read the blog in its ENTIRETY understand what it is?

But that's the most minor piece of evidence that Tinoire distorted this into some sort of diabolical plan. Have you actually gone to the page and read it? Or are you just relying on Tinoire's twisted edit?

[Darranar]

115. Nope - I read it...

I skimmed the posts, but I read the main article.

[democracyindanger]

116. And you still think

it's as Tinoire characterized it?

Hope not. Too much paranoia in this thread.

[Tinoire]

129. Hah! "Meme- pushed by x, y, and z" means what then

What does that mean to you:

The "Clark is actually possible" meme – PUSHED by Calpundit, Yglesias, and Josh Marshall


A little google of each of those names + "Wesley Clark" clearly answers that question.


Nice spin though- nothing new and extremely transparent but cute.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

142. Christ, Tinoire, Haven't You Heard of Independent Creation?

So some of the Clark blogsters all happen to believe that a Clark candidacy is actually possible.

BIG. FUCKING. DEAL.

Every Clark supporter I know has his electability as one of their top three qualities that they love. So yes, it's no surprise that Clark blogsters might express the theme that Clark really is possible.

There is no hive mind. There is no conspiracy. Just a lot of people who love Clark and know about Clark, and read about Clark and agree with each other, and express common themes because they are, well, COMMON.

DTH

[Tinoire]

132. Maybe you can undistort it for us then

:shrug: you know, explain how "push" doesn't mean "push", how all these independent blogs don't lead back to the main one, how no one is in charge of this run-away train running on a platform of national security.

Please. Unspin. The problem is you can't because the words are there in black and white. Attacking the messenger, marginalizing and minimizing don't work here. People actually read and reason for themselves.

<snipping TONS of good stuff DUers should read, especially Kerry and Dean supporters> = twisted edit I guess :shrug:

Also, in reference to "twisted edit", I'd love nothing more than to post the ENTIRE thing because there were more jewels in there. The Kerry people will especially appreciate them because they lived through EVERY ONE of those MEMES these last few weeks.

Please don't ever under-estimate the ability of Progressives and Liberals to think for ourselves.

[democracyindanger]

147. And there it is:

"Please don't ever under-estimate the ability of Progressives and Liberals to think for ourselves."

Suggesting, naturally, I'm some sort of freeper lurker, or Rovian plant, et al. I can't possibly be a progressive/liberal myself, because I question the knee-jerk reaction of a 1000+ DU poster.

Read my original post. I didn't attack the messenger, I attacked the manner in which the message was altered. Okay, maybe I took a jab here and there. But you left out plenty of information that would've given a fairer and fuller context of the blog--basically everything that contradicts your Clark-supporters-are-engaging-in-some-kind-of-psychological-warfare.

'Push?' You really want to play word games? Okay. If I were wearing a tinfoil hat, I could read 'push' as the pundits are making a concerted effort to advance the 'Clark is possible' meme. That means they must've written original pieces lauding Clark, right? Here are the most recent writings I could find by those three using Google:

Calpundit (8/20) "WAITING FOR CLARK....Wesley Clark says he has an "enormous hunger for leadership" and *will decide whether to run for president within the next few weeks.* I guess that means it's time for me to start reading his book." Asterisked portion is a link to a Washington Post story. And by his last sentence, seems to me that he hasn't made up his mind about Clark yet.

Yglesias (8/8) "I just got an e-mail from the unofficial Wesley Clark campaign hinting that an announcement of his candidacy may be coming soon and asking for an endorsement. I'm not going to give one, but I will say that I think it would be good if he got in the race. He obviously has a lot to offer as a candidate, but as he's never stood for elective office before, I'd like to see him out on the campaign trail for a while before I hopped on the bandwagon." Gee, Yglesias isn't going to endorse Clark, and wants to see his campaign before making a decision about even supporting him.

Marshall (8/5) "Now I say this as someone who'd really like to see Clark get into this race and catch fire. The national security credentials speak for themselves. And he does have the advantage that none of the other candidates have really pulled away from the pack or demonstrated any serious credibility as national candidates. (Even Dean's momentum --- as important and innovative as it is at the level of technology-assisted grass-roots organizing -- still strikes me as a sign of the weakness of the Democratic field.) I just have my doubts." So JM admits he'd like to see a Clark candidacy, but he has doubts (with an announcement at this date being late and Clark's dithering about entering).

So, maybe 'push' means that these three pundits advanced the idea of a Clark candidacy as possible, but none really gave a ringing endorsement, so, um, how is DU being memed "to death"?

And perhaps the blog notes memes that the Kerry people lived through BECAUSE THE BLOG IS A REVIEW OF EVENTS THAT HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED.

As for none of the blogs leading back to the original one--the lack of a clear connection is the existence of a connection? Hmm. By that logic, because Free Republic doesn't have a link to DU, but there are posts that link to freeperland on DU, the two must be in cahoots, huh?

"No one is in charge of this run-away train running on a platform of national security"? 1) It's a grass-roots movement, 2) Clark's official platform is still unknown, because he hasn't declared. Because he's a retired general, it's a good assumption that he'll have strong national security credentials, but it's pure conjecture to say that it will be his 'platform.'

I don't underestimate progressives and liberals' ability to think independently. That is our strength. But we are not immune to cries of 'Wolf!', and I do understand the power of creative editing.

Nice work, though. Your headline colored your creatively edited text brilliantly and you got a lot of people to accept what you offered at face value and give you kudos--me included. Congrats!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

139. But...But...But...You Mean It's NOT a National Conspiracy?!?

Nooooooo, I just put on my tinfoil hat to prevent the Clark Bars from using the mind control lasers to make me spout memes!

DTH, Who Thinks Supposed "Memes" Like These Are as Silly as Mimes

[Hell Hath No Fury]

93. Thanks for the info, Tin...

At this point I have not committed to any Dem candidate, and have no intention of doing so for a good, long time. Time and information will eventually tell me what I need to know to make a decision. In the meantime, I am open to everyone and equally skeptical of everyone.

The election is ages off, and there's still MUCH to learned about ALL of these candidates.

I'll be keeping my eyes open on this subject.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

119. People don'tlike getting caught!

I'm neither for or against Clarke but I think you made your point well with proof...problem is when you catch them and call them on it...you move them further underground...don't post it if you catch them next time.

[dfong63]

125. but then how would the rest of us know about it?

problem is when you catch them and call them on it...you move them further underground...don't post it if you catch them next time.

if s/he didn't post her findings, then how would the rest of us find out? what's the point of catching them, if not to expose them? what would stop them from continuing to use these sneaky manipulative tactics? isn't it possibly a good thing if they are forced further underground?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

135. pm it to people

If you act stupid, people try stupid ways to outsmart you

[dfong63]

155. pm-ing doesn't spread the word as effectively as posting

[Tinoire]

134. I know... Hence the dilemna... To warn or not to warn?

:shrug: Good point. Thanks

I especially hope it UN-ruffled some feathers that were purposefully ruffled.

DU is too special to too many of us to be manipulated for a political stunt.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

141. Never let on that you know what you know

It simply allows them to regroup...think sprts...does a football team broadcast its plays or huddle?

[sangh0]

175. The Stupid Act

Don't let them know that you know what they're doing, so that they will keep on doing it, so that you can keep on collecting evidence, until it gets so bad, you have an undeniable body of proof. Furthermore, as they go on and on, their arrogance is almost certain to increase, leading them to undertake actions that are increasingly dangerous.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

143. C'mon T

What proof is there, really? So a bunch of Clark blogsters have similar points about Clark. After a while, every candidate's strong points start sounding the same. Why should Clark be any different?

DTH

[Tinoire]

169. He shouldn't

He should be treated and scrutinized just like every other candidate, and even more since he doesn't have a political record.

My concern isn't that a bunch of Clark blogsters have similar points about Clark, it's that they have similar points re tearing down other candidates and specifically mention this web-site.

Had I found something seeming to orchestrate and coordinate tactics to divide on ANY candidate's blogs, after the brutal weeks we just experienced, I would have posted that too.

We're still in the primaries. This is when we should be looking at issues and picking who the strongest person is, based on those issues not pushing memes to divide. I know you care about the direction this country is taking and I know you know I care. I personally resent it when people treat these pri-primaries as a foot-ball game where the object is just to get as many people on your side, never mind how.

I think Clark supporters would be very concerned if any other camp were posting things like this.

The sooner Clark declares his candidacy as a Democrat and personally clarifies his positions, the better off we'll all be because then we can get to issues where discussion is desperately needed.

I'm sorry Dove, it's nothing personal against Clark or anyone supporting him- this is war to get Bush out but our Party has to get behind the most qualified person- not the most skillfully marketted.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

178. There's No "There" There

So one blog dedicated to studying weekly cultural themes mentioned DU, a board which represents a broad cross-section of Democratic cultural themes each week. SCANDAL!

So a few blogs supporting Clark happen to levy a very few, similar criticisms of a few candidates, criticisms which had already surfaced in various parts of the mainstream media as well. SCANDAL!

There is no conspiracy, there is no "guiding hand," there is no scandal. Just lots of excited Clark supporters, which certain people just can't handle, apparently.

DTH

[DoveTurnedHawk]

179. There's No "There" There

So one blog dedicated to studying weekly cultural themes mentioned DU, a board which represents a broad cross-section of Democratic cultural themes each week. SCANDAL!

So a few blogs supporting Clark happen to levy a very few, similar criticisms of a few candidates, criticisms which had already surfaced in various parts of the mainstream media as well. SCANDAL!

There is no conspiracy, there is no "guiding hand," there is no scandal. Just lots of excited Clark supporters, which certain people just can't handle, apparently.

DTH

[Dover]

130. VERY interesting Tinoire! Are other candidates also strategizing in this

manner or is it primarily a Clark supporters' thing?

Any other similar blogs?

Thanks Tinoire. I very much appreciate receiving all the information I can get. I don't rely on other's opinions of the information I come across....I'll sort it out myself and weigh it's legitimacy.
But without the info, my ability to access is reduced considerably.

We have GOT to know who we're voting for. We and the press let Bush slide prior to and during his candidacy. Too many ignored the red flags. We are much wiser now and I hope everyone will be vigilant.
Far too much at stake to turn a blind eye.

It's not perfection I seek. Honesty and a much higher level of transparency is my primary litmus test for candidates.

[Tinoire]

136. No & The worst part is I found this totally by accident

I typed in democraticunderground and "Wesley Clark" to see what I could google out of our old DU archives in reference to the war on Yugoslavia and this popped up.

None of other candidate blogs had anything like this which I'll wager is because they would be held responsible for everything done in their name.

Wesley Clark could turn out to be just fine. But as you term it 'Red Flags"- that's what I'm looking for on all candidates.

Dean and Kerry had their turns months ago and I was pretty brutal with both of them.
This one's not getting a special ride just because he's late, if anything, that makes me want to examine him even closer because these are not normal times and he has no luggage, no papers... "Who are you, good sir?" :shrug:

These are such dangerous times for our country. Thanks for that great post.

Peace

[legin]

137. I would have thought other candidates are doing it

or at least they will be in the future. I tend to think of the film with Richard Gere, where he plays a political fixer, which could be a Hollywood exageration but probably not by much. There was Rove's little command centre that monitored what was going out on television so that they could get a quick rebuttal in (I think if I remember rightly).

These guys aren't going to say "well, we will just forget about the internet".

To talk about the basement issue; israel is usually very hot on PR but they have lost an awful lot of ground on the internet mainly because they have ignored it completly. My dread is going down to the basement one day and finding i'm up against 20 top-flite history and politics profesors, who have a gigantic library sitting behind them. That would be very inconvienent, but would be a very cheap and cost effective way of israel to spend some PR money.

[Tinoire]

157. I'm sure they're all doing it behind the scenes

but since it's behind the scenes of a campaign associated with them they're a lot more restrained since it would reflect very poorly on their campaign.

But you're so correct... Don't mention the basement. It's already happened except that the library isn't well stocked so you just hear the same things over and over again. Different posters, same talking points. Not even the hand-wringing has improved.

[ima_sinnic]

140. fantastic find, Tinoire

the more I learn of Clark and who is behind him, the more I feel convinced that he is NOT what he appears, not at all.

Ties to George Soros and to PNAC/AEI, evidence of political-influence peddling for Acxiom (and I have not been organized enough to save links but see that it'd be prudent to do so), the unsavory phone call from "the White House" or SOMEbody (he won't come clean on just who) telling him he is needed to lie about a connection between 9/11 and Hussein, the news today that he is not declaring his candidacy "until he feels he has a legitimate chance of winning the nomination," ("He doesn't want to have a situation where he could embarrass himself"--tsk tsk, thank goodness we have 9 courageous Democrats willing to risk "embarrasment"--and guess what, 8 of them ARE going to lose. Yeah, "embarrasment," that's tough--sheesh) http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/28/politics/28CLAR.html?hp
--and now this evidence of a well-orchestrated campaign of infiltration and disinformation--Clark is now on my official sh*t list. I will vote for LIEberman before I'll vote for him.

Dean doesn't have people calling him up asking him to lie for them and that's the way I like it.

Certain posts on here do sound like "protesting too much"--you guys are just too obvious. would be unwise to post the strategy for everybody to see? so how come we see it on DU all the time?

People wake up! we are being trifled with!

[John_H]

145. Politics???!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

Probably would be a good idea to get used to it. Plus, most of the over the top Clark threads are so obviously Rethug and/or Green trolls it's a hoot. That and more than half of your "memes" also happen to be facts.

I try not to even open candidate bashing threads unless it's to ridicule an obvious infiltration. I humbly suggest you do the same.

[chaska]

148. Greetings from Chaska's brain ... and breaking heart (seriously).

When I first found out about DU (through a non-Clark source) I was really delighted to find a place full of people who think like me. I've slowly come to realize that DU isn't really that different from the rest of the world. Big let down. Any group of people, no matter how seemingly homogenous, will eventually find a way to rip each other apart.

When I discovered Clark one of the things I was attracted to about the organization was one very important Clark meme: Clark doesn't bash the Dems, therfore we shouldn't bash the Dems. I have preached about this several times in various DU threads. I have seen exactly two borderline bashing instances by Clarkies. In both cases I PMed the Clarkie and reminded them of our meme. Incidentally, I've never used the term meme before tonight to describe or even think about this idea. And thanks Tinoire for making me aware of the sight you are railing against. But I digress.

I have tried to be here, as I am in my non-virtual life, i.e., a good person. If it is not permissible to show enthusiasm for one's candidate (put that in quotes if you want).... I am certainly guilty of that. And I make no apologies for it.

There are good people and ... there are good people supporting all the candidates. I PMed my thanks just last night to a Kucinich supporter who I felt argued in a particularly honorable manner.

I'm rambling, so I'll end this. But that site you mention Tinoire is completely innocuous. It simply observes what ideas are occuring in the political world and points them out for the rest of the world to ponder. There are no sinister motives motivating the Clark camp.

[FubarFly]

150. I hope you don't take the treatment Clark is getting personally.

Unfortunately, scrutiny for any candidate is inevitable, even if it seems unfair. Clark will help himself a great deal IMO if he:

1: Declares whether or not he's running.

2: Announces that he is a Democrat.

3: Releases detailed information on all of his platform positions.

4: Declares who his official campaign team is so we know who he endorses and who he doesn't.

There is a lot we don't know about Clark and in this current political climate, it would be imprudent not to be thorough. The best defense against innuendo and speculation is for Clark to fill in that void for himself. For my part, I promise to keep an open mind about Clark- both his virtues and faults. With that said, some of the more unsavory actions of his self-proclaimed supporters still concerns me. This blog in question hardly seems innocuous.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

154. Those things trouble me as well....

I spent a good deal of time on the Vote-Smart website earlier doing preliminary research on some of the candidates (their positions, the special interest group ratings, who has endorsed them so far) and I was impressed with much of what I saw on candidates such as Kerry and Kucinich (who I am pretty unfamiliar with). Dean's information is not available yet, so I was unable to view it. (I admit the news that he has sealed his records makes me uneasy.) But still, I do have a gubernatorial record to dig through and gleam information from.

I then ventured into the Clark area and there was no information on him and his positions. Since he is undeclared at this time, that didn't surprise me. But what struck me WAS that Clark, if/when he runs, remains for the most part an unknowable element. He has no history of or public record showing how he votes on issues, there is no traditional paper trail for us follow and learn whether or not he is a politician who keeps his campaign promises. A person in that position can make any claim they wish on any issue but there is just no way to go back and verify their positions.

Bush taught us you can make say anything you wish to get elected and that some Americans are wacky enough to go for it. But, luckily, there was a political history there for anyone who bothered to look that showed us that the words did not fit the action.

I don't want ANY candidate to be a Dem David Souter that blows up in our face.

Which is why I appreciate all the DUers who take the time to dig around and bring up issues on the many candidates that they think is important for us voters to know.

[legin]

153. Hang in there chaska

We did try here to be united once and it was a complete disaster.

The logic here is 'United we fall, divided we stand', it is a sort of semi-organised chaos.

:evilgrin:

[Tinoire]

160. Welcome to DU Chaska

and I am sorry to have pained you. That certainly isn't my intention nor is it to dampen your enthusiasm for your candidate.

Posters on this site range from hard-core, pro-Likud supporters to Moon-beam Commies and there's room for everyone. Clark supporters fit right in and some of our long-standing DUers are Clark supporters. What got to people like me was the orchestrated invasion by people who not only either unwilling or incapable of discussing a single issue but went out of their way to prevent others from doing so by derailing conversations and attacking people left and right. These things leave a very bad taste in people's mouth and reflect very poorly on the candidate's campaign.

You've only seen 2 posts, I've seen hundreds. Last night alone we had one telling all Dean supporters that they were anti-Semites and when someone pointed out to him that many of the Liberal Jews were supporting Dean the accusation became even worse. What call is there for posts or supporters like that? The mods mercifully deleted the posts but damn- what kind of nonesense is that?

If Clark turns out to be the best candidate supported by the majority, then so be it and most in the Party will rally behind him but that won't happen until the majority of Clark supporters spend more time pumping up their candidate and less time sowing division and tearing everyone else's down.

There have been some great posts about Clark that caused even very left people like me to stop and think but they've been too few.

The site itself is innocuous; it's the contents of the post that really bother me because we suffered from each and everyone of those memes these last few weeks.

That all said, welcome to DU- Clark needs a few more good people around here who can articulate their passion positively- the way you just did.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

182. Your Post Is One Of The Most Prescient Posts I Have Read Here

"Any group of people,no matter how seemingly homogenous, will eventually find a way to rip each other apart."

It's called the narcicissm of small differences.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

184. sp-narcicissism

[Cheswick2.0]

152. you think that's bad, people are supporting Arnold on another thread

yikes

[eleny]

156. what troubles me most tonight....

is that we have many smart dems running for the nomination. yet, the r's are confident of a sure win with that half wit, gw.

[Tinoire]

163. Yes and I've noticed

we suddenly have people supporting the embargo against the Cuban people, justifying the death and destruction in Yugoslavia, and saying the Iraqis had it coming. There was a time here when you could count people who believe that on one hand and nobody, not even they themselves, made the mistake of calling them Progressives. Now all of a sudden the word progressive is being re-defined as disgruntled Republicans and other Conservatives join the all- inclusive Clark Camp & try to convince us our progressive views are wrong. ABB has its limits. If ABB means giving up the things I fought for and the values I have then no. ABB for me only extends to Dems with a proven track record and a clear stance on the issues because my vote is not for sale.

There was even a poster here who thought it was great that we turned away boat-loads of "disease-ridden Haitians". I think they fell for the Homeland Security propaganda that Al-Queda was training people in Haiti. The story never added up but hell, anything for Homeland Security.

Defending Arnold at DU? :wtf:

[blm]

173. Haven't seen all the threads

due to limited time, but, it does seem odd that so many here who were considered proud lefties a year ago, have compromised so much to the centrists, even though they claim to despise centrism and its natural compromises with the Republicans.

There is a real disconnect. I guess if you are charmed by the messenger you can be sold any message.

[democracyindanger]

158. GARBAGE

Tinoire challenges me to debunk the garbage she's spewed. I do, and there's NO ANSWER TO IT.

In fact, there are even more posts supporting her drivel, unequivocally.

How sad. How very sad.

[G_j]

164. not sure where you've been

but Tinoire is one of the best reseachers here and that includes a miriad of other subjects besides this particular one.

[Tinoire]

167. Not sure what you're answering to but thanks! :) n/t

[Hell Hath No Fury]

176. I'll take the "drivel"...

of a poster whose work (and record) I have been familiar with for years over an unknown element, thanks.

Kind of how I like my Presidents.

[Bertrand]

159. All for nothing

If youre anti-Clark, tell us why you believe he wouldnt make a good president or isnt the best option for the Dem Party. Stick to the facts instead of irrelevent tinfoilisms based on subjective evidence.

[Tinoire]

161. Sorry- any camp posting such things is fair game to having them shared

That's what the internet is right? One big place to share information. If you don't like the information, beat up the people who wrote it and "pushed" it.

[democracyindanger]

162. Big talker

So where's your response, Tinoire?

Bet I've already made your 'ignore' list.

If you don't like the information, cut and paste until it fits your purposes, right?

What a joke.

[Bertrand]

166. democracyindanger

I didnt even read this thread since i was commenting on the validity of meme theory in the context of deciding a candidate, but your posts in this one are great.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

181. Welcome, democracyindanger!

Your complete destruction of Tinoire's arguments -- and Tinoire's complete inability to respond in anything approaching a persuasive manner -- is greatly welcomed by this Clark supporter.

Welcome to the grand conspiracy to invade DU and conquer the world!

DTH

[Bertrand]

165. Tinoire

Your response is detached from the reality of what ive wrote. I didnt attack your ability to post on a message board, but the content of what you posted.

[Tinoire]

168. My point exactly! I didn't write the content! Address your concerns

to the people who did.

The only thing I wrote was:

Title: DU is being MEMED to Death... / Clark Camp Tactics to Divide & Conquer

Content: Found this and wanted to share the tactics being discussed over on the Clark Blogs to weaken DUers' support for our candidates and strengthen support for Clark. It's an interesting read.

:shrug:

The way I see it you only have 2 choices, contact the people who wrote that or PM the supporters who did that on our board and tell them you don't appreciate it.

Gotta go. More research to do... It's hard work combing through the internet to figure out just what band-wagon we're all being urged to jump on. The sooner the official Clark site comes up, the happier I'll be because at least then we'll have a good, semi-reliable starting point we can all refer to for future discussions. See you then :)

[Bertrand]

170. No, not your point exactly

you editorialized on your perceptions of what the article was about and how it related to your theory of a conspiracy to flood the board with pro-clark propaganda.

[Tinoire]

172. Ah. Thank you for expressing your concern

"editorialized on your perceptions of what the article was about"

I seem to recall posting as much as the article as is permissible under DU guidelines. Not sure where anything about my perceptions of what the article was about comes in since it was a cut and paste job.

I just present the facts, with links, and let people decide... This board isn't made up of sheep you know.

[Tinoire]

171. I had a thread here, from Sunday, about that

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=226326

I'm sorry you missed it. But cheer up, it's be too late to discuss the disturbing links to Homeland Security, Jackson Stephens and Axciom. We'll have plenty of time before the Primaries.

[madfloridian]

177. Tinoire, thanks...and more....Dean is McCarthy-esque. Hmm.mm

And I must admit this one shocked me. I have,in fact, been rather supportive of Graham and Clark in addition to Dean, but this alarms me. It is really divisive.

http://www.theclarksphere.com/
SNIP..."In May it was clear that Dean was the real front runner, because he was the only one running forward. Now it is becoming clear that it is really a two man race: the Eugene McCarthy-esque run of Dean as the vehicle for those simply furious with both the Republicans and the Democratic Party versus Wesley Clark, and those who have faith in the idea of American self-renewal. If Clark can establish himself as figure with the same vision as RFK: that to heal a divided nation, we will not begin, by dividing it still further, then he will win. Because nothing clarifies the mind about the difference between the two men then spending half an hour being ranted at by Deanites about how Bush is covertly backing Clark......"

[DoveTurnedHawk]

180. So You're Unhappy With One Clark Blogster

Please enlighten me as to how this is supposed to be some kind of reflection on: a) Clark; b) other Clark supporters; c) a gi-normous Clark conspiracy to invade DU and take over the world.

:eyes:

DTH

[madfloridian]

183. I am mostly upset with this Clark blogger with the *memes*.

I have never said things about Clark because I rather like him. It is this supporter, and a couple at some other links that turn me off.

I think it is good that Tinoire posted this thread. I don't want Deaniacs, Deanyboppers, Deanie Meanies (or whatever the buzz word is this week) to use these tactics, either.

[madfloridian]

185. Tinoire, check your inbox.

:hi: