Is this a Dem Party, or a Progressive liberal board? I'm getting mad!

[Room101]

I need to know the answer to this question, because I’m growing increasingly agitated with the tow the party line crap. This has been building up inside of me for a while now. This Independent is voting for DEAN as well as no on the recall and for Arianna Huffington. Arianna running has nothing to do with her ego, Arnold yes. People who say that don’t know her Progressive back ground and activism.

I'm so sick of getting angrier than the Dems. I'm sick and tired of being just as angry at the Dems as I am of the Republicans! In these United States of amnesia were most bumper sticker patriots would have trouble distinguishing between a TV guide and the Constitution, boldness is in order to obtain Joe and Jane public’s short attention span. In the past two years a Bold Democratic party is what we call an oxymoron. I don't count presidential candidates and the Texas Dem outlaws, I'm referring to the Democratic party establishment.


Nader bashers don’t seem to be empathic about them being total disenfranchised Democrats. (Note: I voted for Gore in 2k)The Democratic Party has completely sold us out, with few exceptions akin to a Halley’s comet. And you wonder why Nader had so many votes? Get mad at the Democrats for giving them a reason to vote Nader.((( News flash))) Green party members are mostly broken hearted Democrats. (Note: I’m a registered Independent)

This two party installed dictatorship has been dangling the carrot on the stick beyond humiliation. Does it not raise red flags that we are the only industrialized country, in the world that limits its citizens to only two major parties? Does it not raise a red flag that these two big fish parties, have united countless times to eat any small fish that dares to swim near their part of the sea?

Choosing the lesser of the two evils is still choosing evil.
This cycle must be broken or what’s left of our republic, will go the way of the Beta and the A-track.

I'm a Progressive Liberal Independent not a Party line tower.
So I ask what kind of board is this?

[billbuckhead]

1. My impression is that it's a beat GeorgeW Bush board and anything else....

one gains from it is a plus.

[papau]

5. I agree n/t

n/t

[DuctapeFatwa]

16. Sadly, it is not a "get rid of PNAC" board

It is discouraging to see such intelligent people fall so easily into such an old trap.

Aside from being a CIA legacy, and of an intellectual capacity suitable to the purpose, perhaps because of the latter, bush was chosen to be the front man precisely because he is disposable.

Who reads the cards, even how well they read them, is secondary to what is on the cards, and even more important, decisions made in offices that are not written on cards.

It is immaterial to Karl Rove whether his boy singer is a "Democrat" or a "Republican."

And it will be immaterial too, to the parents of children killed by the same policies and executive orders signed with a different pen.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

54. so true DuctapeFatwa

although I bet Rove is as disposible as Bush, for the most part. Lots of neo-cons on the blue team as well.

[Tinoire]

94. Amen. Amen! Bingo!

The boys are NOT going to disappear gently into the night!

PNAC & AEI have spent years making sure ALL their bases are covered.

Just read the letters urging Clinton to attack Iraq signed by both Dems and Reps and this after the CIA had already said Sadaam was NO threat after years of obscene sanctions.

Politicans have been greased, manipulated and black-mailed on BOTH sides of the aisle.

Bush isn't the problem, the problem is the ENTIRE BLUE-PRINT so getting Bush out accomplishes NOTHING if the entire blue-print isnt't tossed out also.

Bush's main problem is that he was in such a rush that he got caught. My concern isn't in getting someone in there who will do the same thing but not get caught- it's in getting someone in there who would NEVER DO SUCH A THING.

THIS is where issues, principles and values become NON-NEGOTIABLE. This is also where demonstrable stances on the issues and political records are CRITICAL.

Telling us you're a Dem is no longer enough because it's clear our Party was infiltrated and weakened long ago. All I care about is just how provably progessive our candidates are

This is OUR vote and if we are indeed progressives then a progressive voting block should be getting a progressive candidate for its money otherwise something is seriously wrong and we will deserve what happens to us. Hitler too said he was a progressive. There's more to things than a name. Lieberman was tossed out despite a socially progressive record. Why is Lieberman being punished more than the others? They ALL must be scrutinized and repudiated if they don't meet OUR standards.

In other words DTF, nice post. I agree :)

[Darthe SEAL4]

42. Billbuckhead

That's the impression I'm getting, too.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Anyone can post anything

That said, although I have great respect for Arianna the pundit and muckraker (I mean that affectionately) Arianna the candidate is dividing the progressive vote in a close election..been there, done that with poor results.

If the California Dems were NOT progressive, i could see her point. Does politics need to be cleaned up..yes...do we need more service cuts by Republicans in a bad economy resulting in less of a safety net for citizens ..NO!!!
Arianna was one of the first to NOTE the heartlessness of the Newt Republicans. Her running in a tight election will STICK US with Newt Republicans.

She needs to evaluate her conscience on this one..I say this with respect because it is a winner take all election with what may be a depressed turnout. She might end up enabling that which she has sworn to fight..it hasn't had good results nationally..it won't have good results here.

[David Zephyr]

13. Thoughtful and, I Think the Most Progressive Position for My State.

I am urging everyone I know to vote against this Recall. That is the real issue here.

I will also vote without any hestitation whatsoever for Cruz. I also appreciate a lot of what Arianna has come to do and be since her conversion. I have a lot of respect for her, but I agree with you NSMA that, as DU's Merlin said here in a post the other day, this is a lot bigger than just a game of tiddlywinks.

California is the state I love and proudly call my home. It is the state that made a home for me as a teenage queer living on the streets.

Our children's schooling, our senior's health, our precious and beautiful environment, our coastlines, our wildlife and protected wilderness lands, forests and mountains, our California State University System, our roads and infrastructure, and our blessed multi-cultural and ethnically rich population all depend on who will sit as Governor of the Golden States.

Merlin says it isn't a game of tiddlywinks. It's about who we are as Californians.

Arnold was meeting with Ken Lay at the Beverly Hills Hotel during Enron's great power scheme against this state which they tried to pin on Gray Davis. We must not let them win, but if they are able to pull down Davis, then the very best would be for the elected Lt. Governor to become the Governor.

[jagguy]

3. "Democratic" Underground

I think that kinda says it. Right ?

But in reality it's not, it is a progressive leftist board.

[Room101]

26. No jagguy, it does not kinda say it....

Democratic underground is open to interpretation. You can take the word Democratic and say that's right we live in a Democratic country. If the name were Democrat’s underground then it would kinda say it.

[jagguy]

67. last time I checked, it was the Democratic Party

Democratic Caucus...
Democratic Leadership Council...
Democratic Senator This...
Democratic Representative That...
Democratic President The Other...

Your option is a minority interpretation in terms of usage in this country. May be the intent but as there is no Progressive Liberal Party in this country (so far as anyone has ever heard) I'd take my interpretation as the massively obvious choice.

[Room101]

91. Last time I checked I said it is open to interpretation........

"Democratic Caucus...
Democratic Leadership Council...
Democratic Senator This...
Democratic Representative That...
Democratic President The Other..."

Democraticunderground the underground of a Democratic society.
That is how I like to think of it. It is not massively obvious to me.

[Tinoire]

102. Actually this board is what the majority of the posters made it

and that is a Liberal, Progressive board.

This board doesn't belong to a dictionary! It belongs to the posters who stayed up until 2, 3 AM night after night discussing stories, debating the issues, organizing anti-war campaigns and other actions.

This is a Leftist, Socialist, unashamedly Pinko Commie, tree-hugging board for Moonbat Commies also known as a "radical-left discussion board". Just do a google or spend some time here if you don't believe it.

[jagguy]

119. as I understand it

this board was created as a DIRECT result of the 2000 election and the nature of Gore's loss. The Democratic Party candidate's loss.

As such, it does take a deliberate stance. Now I won't deny that its taken a life of it's own since that time but the genesis was as a gathering point for Democrats to rally for ways to avoid election goings on in the future. That aspect remains and in full force. Moreover it adds the natural interst in Democratic Political Party actions/reactions as another major focus. Because Progressive Liberals have no other significant political party to call their own, they migrate to the Democratic Party and thus their presense here. Which brings us back to the question of the original post. This board would look to be a forum for Democratic Party that has been co-opted somewhat by the Progressive Liberal element of the party.

I find it interssting that no moderators or other folk representing the Democratic Underground itself have chimed in to point out how badly I've misconstrued their intent.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

115. I Though The United States Was A Republic

or a democratic republic.

We are represented through our elected representatives. Last time I checked we didn't have plebiscites, at least at the federal level.

[JasonBerry]

62. As in Little "d"

~

[redeye]

71. No, it doesn't

It's small-d democrat, i.e. for everyone who supports democracy and isn't a conservative.

[farmbo]

80. I like Progressives, but......

1. William Jennings Bryant and Huey Long aren't around anymore.
2. Arianna (who I like a lot) was a f***in'Republican until 1994.
3. If you vote for the lesser of two evils, you are voting for the morally superior candidate, and against the truly evil one.
4. Ralph Nader (who I like a lot) is Karl Rove's dream candidate.
5. Elections are planned and executed by Machiavelli, not Jesus.

Vote Democratic!!!

[Mairead]

109. "you are voting for the morally superior candidate"

I believe you should spend more time thinking about that. Even Idi Amin was the Lesser Evil in some context.

[roughsatori]

4. I have been getting more angry lately too

And I have posted that I thought DU was moving more to the right toward a moderate outlook.

There have been many new posters in the last month who seem to have a more centrist view and outlook. I am sick of hearing that we need to pull in moderate Republican voters. It is as it they think more left leaning progressives are expendable.

That said I feel that anyone can post what they like and I will respond if I want too. Or if any board is no longer amenable to me I can leave, as can anyone else (hopefully whithout a pathetic "goodbye post."

[pasadenaboy]

9. Centrists

not everyone is a centrist to appeal to the right. Some people are just centrists, who identify more with democrats than repubs.

[mumon]

11. My feeling is: Go hard left until...

we actually CAN send Ken Lay to the rice fields to Learn from the Wise Ways of the Peasants.

Then we'll be back to the center.

So I ALWAYS tell folks I'm a moderate: I'm betwen Mao Zedong and George W. Bush.

[roughsatori]

14. That is a good one LOL NT

[redeye]

96. So is Bush, actually...

...he's right there between Reagan and Mussolini.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. I Respect Folks To The Left Of Me

but the Democratic Party has never been a far left party nor has it ever desired to be.

Look at the party icons; FDR, Truman, JFK, RFK. They were far from Greens or Democratic Socialists.

To a one they were liberal wefare state reformers....

[billbuckhead]

19. I've been on here for almost 2 years and it seems about the same.

There has always been a lot of support for the "Third Way" as manifested in the Clintons, Al Gore, Carville and Begala, Roy Barnes and Max Cleland, Ed Rendell, Mark Warner, Bill McBride, Mary Landrue, McGreevy, Bluedog Democrats, NRA Democrats, Gerhard Schroeder,etc. Many former favorites such as Tony Blair, Joe Lieberman, Tom Daschle all used to have a lot of support, but it has waned mostly over the "endless war against some terrorist".

I remember that most DU'ers were for Denise Majette over Cynthia McKinney, Bill McBride over Janet Reno and there has always been bitter infighting between DLC and Greens, Gore vs Nadir, Gun worshippers vs those for sensible regulation of weapons, city vs country, South vs Yankee, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that there has always been a strong moderate/Third way aspect of DU that has argued with strong and diverse leftist points of view that also have always been present.

[roughsatori]

24. You are correct

But lately I have thought there are many newer posters who seem to want to save DU and the Democratic Party from the left. Yes most of them seem to be in support of the same (maybe) candidate.

[never cry wolf]

55. I am a relative newbie

and I have espoused unity. But that unity solely is to oust the criminal regime that is in place. I am an independent who most often votes dem but have voted third party (or 4th or 5th party) who also hates the facts that the parent poster pointed out, that we are the only industrialized nation that only has two choices. I wish i knew how to change that but if there is one thing that the repug and dem party leadership agree on is they get all the pie, no slices for anyone else.

Nevertheless, after seeing the Clinton hating, the impeachment fiasco, the stolen election and all that has transpired since I feel that if there is any chance for this republic to survive, and hopefully eventually grow and mature, it lies in removing the current PNAC puppet and his handlers from power. Maybe then some real investigations can be made, the public's eyes can be fully opened and a chorus of calls for drastic change will deafen their ears until reforms are made.

Above all else, a politicians first and foremost priority is to get elected. If enough people scream for change they will change or others who are willing to change will take their place.

(Of course this all assumes fair elections, which are certainly in question.)

[YouNotMyBoss]

6. Power is everything

Remember that just as soon as we get Democratic control we'll move left and bring everyone onboard that helped us get here. We promise. Trust us.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. please elaborate

[YouNotMyBoss]

23. That's not how it works?

Platitudes and promises to the fringe elements or is it middle road all the way?

[Ein]

12. I'm skeptical about that.

The moving left thing. I know Clinton must've let more than a couple of people down.

[shanti]

78. he sure let ME down

clinton's record on the mm issue stunned me.

[MODemocrat]

38. I have republican friends who can't stand the right wing anymore

One man in particular told me that he has voted republican all his life, but since Bush has been president, he has decided to vote for the democrats in the next election.
I guess I'm not savvy enough to understand why being Liberal is so bad. While working during my younger years, I worked for both parties,
at the county Courthouse, and found that the liberal democrats were always the ones with compassion, and willing to help indigents, while the republicans would say, "he or she's too lazy to work" and would turn people away who needed help.

Call me a liberal anytime, it makes me proud.

[pasadenaboy]

7. Why are you voting for Ariana and not Bustamante?

[YouNotMyBoss]

44. Principle?

Or princaple?

[redeye]

97. Maybe because Bustamante sucks?

The guy is as bas as Davis and Ah-nold. And besides, it's important to show the Dems that the liberals aren't in their pockets.

[mumon]

8. Geez, I think we're one big happy family.

I don't like the "bash Nader" folks, but frankly, I want us to win.

That's why Liberman can go Repuke, but I'll vote for anyone else who's a democrat. Not a green (and I voted for the elected President in 2000, not Bush or Nader.)

I DO think we need a better voting system though. We need to get rid of the 2 party "system," because it's stifled democracy.

And thus, I feel at home here in the DU.

Face it: Repugnants are going to destroy the US unless we defeat them.

Let's all get along.

[Capn Sunshine]

29. Yeah, it reminds me of Thanksgiving Dinner here sometimes

The ones where your Aunt gets too drunk and accuses your Uncle of being gay and your brother announces he's joining the Sun Ri Bhuddists in Nepal, and your older sister breaks into tears inexplicably and the friend of the next door neighbors wife is running her shoeless toes up your thigh under the table and she isn't wearing a bra and Great Grandma has a gas attack so the little cousins sitting near her are giggling uncontrollably and Uncle Mort is talking about Berlin and Reiffenstahl while you were in the bathroom getting high and when you come out its a goddam Fellini movie.
Just like that.
:loveya:

[mike_c]

40. damn, that was the best summation of DU that I've ever heard....

Although you forgot the occasional turd in the punch bowl....

[never cry wolf]

60. BWAHAHAHA n/t

[shanti]

79. lol

you're a funny guy, capn sunshine!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

101. ROFLMAOPIMP!!!!

[mumon]

118. Reminds me of MY family LOL!

Totally dysfunctional, but really loving and caring.

And when someone challenges us, watch out!

Got it Neal Boortz?

[Rowdyboy]

15. Ariana endorsed Dick Cheney for Speaker of the House in 1996...

"One of the most popular and respected Republican figures in the country"

http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/123196.html

I believe she also called Newt Gingrich a "genius"

I don't live in Kaleefornia. It's not my fight so vote for whoever you like. But I wouldn't trust her. Her 180 degree turn is too much for me to swallow.

[Room101]

31. That was then, and now she is on the Progressive side.

I'm always suspicious of people that throw the baby out with the bath water. She has been on the front line giving hell to the Bush/Cheney junta. Hello have you been paying attention. I used to watch the Rush Limbaugh TV show when I was around 15 or 16, I had no clue about anything. I guess in your eyes I’m now irrelevant.

[Rowdyboy]

33. No, but she was an adult...

And it was only 6 years ago...

[Room101]

46. Whatever eat your own and take some soma

Continue to diss someone who disses Bush at every opportunity. Karl Rove loves you.

You are now on my ignore list, reserved for people who throw babies out with baby water, and eat their own(Anti-bush people)

[Rowdyboy]

105. I've NEVER been on anyones "ignore list"...

God bless you, I must be doing something right! This is a real milestone and I must post a thread to celebrate...

Anyway, to the 31,016 of you who do not have me on ignore, I have nothing against Ariana Huffington. I just don't trust her any more than I trust any party switcher. Vote for her all you want, but "let the buyer beware"

Karl Rove doesn't love me, though. He hasn't answered a single one of my letters since our tryst in Liberia...

[shanti]

82. cheney could NEVER have been elected pres

he knew it and it's why he was paired with chimpy. he's MUCH worse...

arianna did a complete switcheroo. sorry if i have a hard time believing this, especially with her support of cheney.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

17. i thought they were synonymous..dem/liberal/progressive

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. What Does Progressive And Liberal Mean To You

and I'll tell you as someone who has pulled the Deomocratic lever exclusively for nearly three decades if I am a liberal or progressive.

[Room101]

36. I have trouble Defining Progressive and liberal........

Progressive to me means equal rights (ACLU) and burden to everyone.
Universal healthcare
The end of NAFTA
Separation of church and state
Stopping the military industrial complex (Welfare for the rich).
Stop the madness of out of control Defense spending
Evolution not creation in schools
Safe safe education not stupid abstinence
Pro- choice
Pretty much a lot of things that Dennis Kucinich stands for.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. Why Do You Have A Dean Avatar

He is to the right of DK on national security. Dean supported

Gulf War 1

The sanction regime against Iraq


The Afghan War.


Dean has vowed to maintain defense spending at current levels...


I don't have a problem with those positions

and the rest of the positions you listed are o k with me but some are state issues....

[Room101]

32. Wellstone/Dennis/liberal/progressive are synonymous not DEM

:)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. What Was RFK?

He wasn't reluctant to use force when he determined it to be in the nation's interest.

Same with HST and JFK

[redeye]

98. Nope

The Democrats are a party; progressivism and liberalism are political philosophies.

[Capn Sunshine]

21. Hey , I agree but could I ask you to vote for Bustamante?

Pretty please? It's not a party line thing.
It's a defeat the neocon borg thing.

[YouNotMyBoss]

27. defeat the neocon borg thing

And then what? More of the same or are there big changes being promised?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. Neocon borg? This is the guy that sponsored legislation to get farmworkers

the right to bargain collectively after their contracts were subsumed by corporate farms.

The fact that he has been endorsed by the DLC does NOT mean he has adopted their policies. His policies have been progressive on health, the environment and labor.

How about you post in something other than platitudes since you are not fond of them.

[YouNotMyBoss]

49. How about you post in something other than platitudes

I'm sorry. It's hard to tell who is the hall monitor and who is just a normal person like me with an opinion to share. Pardon me oh great one.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Opinions are nice..having them based in a fact or two is a valentine

So got any facts?

[YouNotMyBoss]

61. Nice is a town in Italy

Here it's give and you shall receive. That is a fact.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. I gave FACTS..again GOT ANY?????

[YouNotMyBoss]

68. The fact he wants to help me spend more in taxes bothers me

I'm streached flat out now and anymore I'll be forced to move.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

73. He hasn't suggested spending more in taxes for moderate incomes

if you are in a TOP income bracket and are stretched out that is certainly different than being in a lower tax bracket and forced to pay a huge vehicle registration which the Republicans seemed fine with since THAT was in the only bill they would vote up.

Funny, Repubs didn't care much for casinos but they are providing good high paying employment for over 50,000 Californians (not just Indians)

I don't believe he has offered any spending increases and the budget has been pared down about as much as it can be.

If you are such a claimed progressive, perhaps you can tell me the specific area in which you would make cuts.

I personally would make them in prisons but NEITHER party will do that.

Californians voted to PUT more people in prison and to BUILD more prisons with ballot measures funded by bonds..too bad they didn't vote to STAFF them with bonds because now the state is strapped with the high cost of running these prisons..

again...got any real facts or just more of those platitudes you hate unless you are the one posting them?

[YouNotMyBoss]

75. I would fire half the state workers

You see five workers standing around one guy using a shovel. There's no excuse for that. Six state vehicles on site for one rain gutter repair.

Waste is rampant from "workers" milking the state budget. That is where I would start and that's a fact.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

77. Right....

Prove it. Fire half the state workers and what you have are more roads not passable and more people out of work thereby reducing the tax base...that works...very progressive.

Ever work on a construction crew? Didn't think so.

Workers milking the state...what a rare progressive thought.

Funny, the roads which have cost the most with the poorest results are areas like the Orange crush which was built by contract workers, didn't finish on time and need to be redone due to construction defects...it now has to be rebuilt and the company which should guarantee their work is long gone.

[YouNotMyBoss]

81. I'm sorry you can't see the waste

<plonk>

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. Wow...the evidence for it is so obvious in your post

How could I miss it? Perhaps it is written in invisible ink?

Are there instances where things can be done more efficiently? Sure..
Cite a specific thing and I will address it.

[shanti]

88. excuse me?

but most state workers EARN their money! they don't EVEN make as much as someone in the public sector would. you can't have everything, dude! leave the state workers alone!

[not systems]

92. The greedy shovelers

Yea, I'm sure they broke the bank.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. Chauncey Gardener Is Among Us

[never cry wolf]

70. Interesting!

I knew Italy had a right wing premier but I missed their invasion. When I was in Nice, they spoke francais.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

74. Good catch

I should have caught that..I lived there in the 70's as an exchange student.

[never cry wolf]

83. HAH

vous parles francais? alors, je parle un petit peux. Je etude en Versailles en 78-79, UP3, Ecole de Beaux Arts.

Loved Nice, young merican college boys first encounter with a topless beach. Maybe we met?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. Oui, je parle en puex de francais aussi

J'etudie sur l'universite nice pendent duex mois en 1976.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. Geez... Just When You Took Your Eyes Off The Germans

the Italians got ya....

[Cheswick2.0]

85. sneaky Italians

lol

[Cheswick2.0]

59. only 15 posts and already you can recognize the GREAT amoung us

Fabulous! I have to agree with you NSMA is great.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. These Newbie Flamers Are A Trip

[YouNotMyBoss]

72. The only flaming I'm seeing are by high post counts

Is this the way you greet all newbies?

[Cheswick2.0]

84. only the newbies calling the democratic candidate a neocon borg

being a newbie doesn't get you a free pass.

[YouNotMyBoss]

86. Get it right. The borg post was an EXACT copy of the post I replied to

The boirg text was copied and pasted into my subject line. Why don't you take it up with the author that penned it first? Rather pick on an easy newbie would ya tough guy? I don't need your lies badmouthing me falsly.

[alcuno]

22. We are democrats. Therefore we don't toe the party line.

n/t

[mkregel]

25. 3 Words

ANYONE BUT BUSH

[redeye]

99. Yep, you're right

Who cares if nothing will change. Who cares if atheists will continue to be second class citizens, if Iraqis will continue to be slaughtered, if the NSA will continue reading my mail. As long as a Democrat sponsors those, everything's fine and dandy.

[Ress1]

28. 31,000 members.

31,000 opinions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. I Think The Only Thing That All DUers Agree On Is That Bush

needs to be replaced....

After that I think the political views range anywhere from blue dog Democrats to Trostskyites.....

I put myself in the tradition of HST, JFK, and RFK and see very little room between their positions and mine.

[Booberdawg]

35. So frustrating

I am fairly left of moderate in my political views and while I don't support Nader or the Green platform I don't participate in bashing either. But I must say I am just as disturbed and dismayed by comments such as yours as you seem to be with the party line Democrats.

You see, I don't like the party line either but I want to place my efforts where there is a real chance to change things and make a difference - the first and foremost change being stopping the forward motion of the bush junta and the Republican Party and the damage they are doing on the national level - and to a lesser degree the interference they are causing in California.

I'm sorry - I don't even like to say it because I know my more left leaning comrades don't like to hear it and I don't want to offend either, but the Green Party simply does not have the support to be a viable alternative. What particularly frustrates me about the Green alternative is that I see it so often used as a tool to coerce or intimidate the Democratic Platform into an all or nothing demand from the furthermost left of the party or a threat to divide the vote and guarantee a Republican win.

I don't see demanding and expecting the sun and the moon and the stars and the heavens a winning strategy - I just don't. You get there by taking smaller steps - or you end up with dirt and rocks - or worse - like we have since the 2000 selection.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. We Don't Have A Parliamentary System So Every Green Vote

is a Republican vote because it is a vote that otherwise would have been for the Democrat.*

That's just math.....








*of course the Green could not vote at all...

[Forkboy]

39. How do you know that a Green voter

would vote Dem otherwise?

Thats not math....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. You Mean The Green would vote Republican

[Forkboy]

48. Possibly

or any number of other parties.

The point is you assumption is not math as you called it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. I'll Refine My Equation

A vote for a Socialist, a Green, a Communist is much more likely to be at the expense of the Democrat than the Republican.



Buchanan..... Bush.....Gore.......Nader......McReynolds

right to left

Is it your contention that the left voter would skip the choice closest to them and move to the right?

[Sterling]

52. Lots of Green voters would not vote.

The Green party pulls in a lot of people who otherwise are not represented in the system. Its too bad many dems fell safe taking for granted that the appeal to certain demos without actually representing their specific interests just because "the other guy" is so bad.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. I Agree

that the Greens do attract a certain percentage of folks who wouldn't vote.

But among those who do vote 2/3 of them would vote for the Dem*




*i'll leave it to a more enterprising DUer to find a link.

[YouNotMyBoss]

50. Red, blue and green votes

You forgot yellow and black and white.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. I Was Getting To That

Thanks for reminding me...

pats younotmyboss on her head....

[redeye]

100. You're wrong twice

First, you probably meant "we don't have proportional representation," because Britain and Canada have parliamentary systems with a legislature elected by plurality.

Second, voting Green is not like voting GOP. Assuming that the vote tally without me is 154 Dem, 130 GOP, you'll see that if I vote Green it will stay 154-130 whereas if I vote GOP it'll change to 154-131.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. Usually When Folks Refer To A Parliamentary

system they are referring to a system that exists in the U K where the parties receive seats according to the vote. In America if you are running for the House and Senate and you get 49.999% of the vote and your opponent gets 50.001 % of the vote you get cacka.

Research from the 00 elections suggested that out of every four Nader voters, two would have voted for Gore, one would have voted for Bush , and one would have stayed home. Gore allegedly lost FL by 537 votes. Nader got 97,000 votes:


97,000 divided by 2= 48,500 or 90.32 times greater than Bush's margin of victory.

[redeye]

112. In Britain the system is exactly the same as the US House...

...except that redistricting is done impartially and once in a blue moon.

And the fact that most Americans can't differentiate a parliamentary system from proportional representation doesn't mean the two are the same, only that most Americans have no idea what they're talking about.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

113. The Larger Point Is Being Obscured

Take any House District

Candiate A is a Democrat

Candidate B is a Republican

Candidate C is a Green

Candidate D is a Liberterian

Only one of them is going to Congress.... Same with the other 434 districts. And with our winner take all system the chance for coalitions among either right or left parties is non-existent.

To the best of my knowledge there is one independent Bernie Sanders who votes with the Dems and one self described liberterian,Ron Paul, who votes with the Republicans*.

If someone votes Liberterian or Green in a House race how are their wishes being translated into policy since the system is biased in favor of the two major parties.

It seems obvious that the only way a Liberterian, Green, Socialist, Vegetarian, Natural Law party candidate can go to Congress is by beating the two major major party candidates.

How often does that happen?


*Ron Paul is a member of the Republican Party.

[BeFree]

43. I second that

A divisive and biting campaign will make sure we lose any chance to take back our country. Rest assured that after the elections our weight will be felt in the halls of power. Use your passion to ensure that we at least have our friends in those halls. Use your passion against our opposition, not our comrades. Please.

[Booberdawg]

69. To be sure

I don't want to contribute to more divisiveness.

In fact I believe most of my leftmost comrades who would otherwise vote Green do agree that we have common goals that we can accomplish successfully by pooling our resources in CA and in the next national election that would otherwise be lost, perhaps for decades, if not for doing so. By doing that, we have a far better chance of addressing the concerns raised such as those in the original post and other valid concerns raised by our Green comrades.

[Room101]

90. Booberdawg, great post ..............

You are striking the chord I wish more people would. The Greens have very valid concerns and they should be addressed. There is a common destination desired although we take different paths to get there. The national goal is to get ride of Bush, or we are all fucked. I feel that DEAN can get at least half on the Disenfranchised third party voters.

These people who say it is simple math that if you vote third party, it is a vote for the Republicans are using fuzzy math. You can’t just dismiss them (Greens, Indy’s) you must address them.

[John_H]

58. Thank god Fidelity Ralph will be there for you

and the other one-percenters to cast your protest votes. Of course many would refer to a vote for Sir Ralph, Buster of Unions as a "concience vote," but this is, on it's face, a misnomer--anyone willing to enable chimpy can't possibly have a fully developed conscience.

[Terwilliger]

107. Like Dick Gephardt?

or Tom Daschle?

[leftofthedial]

65. it's an all of the above board

Get the Whistle Ass Cabal out of office.

[nomatrix]

89. I with Capn Sunshine

except to me it's more like your favorite neighborhood bar that you go to when you got laid off.
You know the characters who come in and their all sitting at the bar on their usual stools. You expect them to be there because they are always there (crying in their beer or telling jokes, whatever). You know their M.O.
Scoping out the pools tables you see the ones you don't know. They tell you they've been coming here for a long time (1000 posts) but you've never seen them and you've been lurking for a very long time, don't feel the need to comment on everything.
They are the know-it-alls, you can't talk to, because they are always arguing about something. And you wonder why they come here because they just don't seem to fit in the neighborhood. Occasionally you get suckered into a fight because they pissed you off enough to play their game.
And you leave cussin' and wondering why you set yourself up. Next time you show up, it's new names (1000)but they have the same old tired arguement as the ones before. And you wonder if you've been here before, because somebody else got suckered into the same fight and it's de-ja-vu again.
So you look for another place to go but realize you are addicted and can't stop.
There are posers out there. Im-post-ers. Posting on forums. Just like Zell Miller posing as a Dem. Never votes along party lines.
So let me ask you, do you know who these candidates are and how they'll vote yet?
Nobody knows. They're just talking sh*t. Wait till they get asked the tough questions. Then figure it out for yourself. If you wait for the parties to give you their opinion your doing the same thing (sell out dems). Going along with popular opinion. Make your decision, then tell us why you did.

[johnny_red]

95. its what you make of it, bro.

this board is a place to meet like minded folk and organize... whatever you want. its a place to plan, plot and prepare for real action in the real world. for me, that is the primary strength of this group.

at times it can also be a place for enlightened debate and a supportive place to shape your own political system. but if you already have a strong set of beliefs, dont use this place as a soapbox to gather converts: use it as a place to identify allies and network for change. du is a great tool, if you are using it right. it can be a mental chainsaw if you try to grab it the wrong way, though.

[0rganism]

103. (answers) Yes. Yes. Take two valium.

> And you wonder why Nader had so many votes?

Nader didn't have enough votes.

> Does it not raise red flags that we are the only industrialized
> country, in the world that limits its citizens to only two major
> parties?

There are actually four, although they've been lumped together in two. There are the rabid right wingers, the moderate right wingers, the sorta left wingers, and the unrepresented grouches (mostly left wingers these days). The first group grudgingly shares power with the second, while trampling on the third and ignoring the fourth.

> Does it not raise a red flag that these two big fish parties, have
> united countless times to eat any small fish that dares to swim
> near their part of the sea?

Two parties, one empire.

> So I ask what kind of board is this?

It bounces back and forth between sorta left wing and very grouchy.

I think of DU as a reflection of the Democratic psyche, much like the inner monologue of an employee who's somewhere in between capitulation to the ridiculous demands of a deranged boss and telling the boss to fuck off with a shotgun.

Boss: What do you know about this?
Narrator: Well, I gotta tell ya - I'd be very careful who I talk to about this. Because the person who wrote this is dangerous. And one day they could just snap. And then this button-down, Oxford-cloth psycho, stalking from office to office with an Armalite AR-180 carbine gas-operated semi-automatic, pumping round after round into colleagues and coworkers. This could be someone you've known for years. Someone very close to you...Or maybe you shouldn't go bringing me every little piece of trash you happen to pick up.

(cf Fight Club, 1999)

[shance]

104. I appreciate your loyalty Before - AND I also appreciate discernment***

I have been a huge fan of Ariannas, and despite much conflicted thought and concern after her announcement, I decided I would vote for her. However, today she gave me the final reason to pull my vote from her, probably forever, assuming she would ever run again.

As we all know messages are greatly different from MESSENGERS....the first thing to arise was that Arianna only paid a MINUTE amount on taxation and I dont live in an 8 million dollar house. Of course she paid alot in property taxes - so did everyone else that lives in Brentwood. I live in California and the property taxation is pretty much across the board for everyone. And of course, her campaign manager is a head of the tobacco LOBBY, which is a big contradiction because of course, well, take a look at PIGS AT THE TROUGH. I just cant believe the choices she is making. Its the same entitelment we are seeing from the other side!

SO NOW today, she states she will vote FOR the recall, a DIRECT ABOUT FACE from her stance on the wrongheadedness of the recall, which reveals to me the dire preference for her own opportunism versus sticking to what is right, and what she said at her announcement, of which I was in attendance!

It also reveals to me a weak moral structure that is vulnerable to the changing winds which reveals incredible unpredictability which leaves me as a Californian VERY VULNERABLE.

You have no idea how painful this is for me and many. I live and California and LONG to have a person I can trust that truly is out for what is best for our state AND NATION, versus a narcissistic ego that is starving to be fed. With these inconsistencies, how could I ever feel confident that any future "opportunities" will once again motivate Arianna to leave her MESSAGE and principles down the river, with Californians, and heck, Americans to pick up the tab.

We can deny that she or he or WHOEVER has these tendencies. We can DENY their actions, which is the only way to truly judge anyone, and we can blindly follow a message that from all indications has a high potential to be fair weathered and hollow. I dont know who in the heck I am going to vote for now. It is SO evident to me that Gray Davis is being wronged and there are various scavenger birds that cannot change their feathers no matter how much we want to see them as graceful regal eagles.

We LEARN THE MOST ABOUT A PERSON WHEN THE CHIPS ARE DOWN or perhaps when the chips are UP.

Gray Davis has been wronged and these people who are now changing direction in mid stream seem not principled and in the end, it shows me that when the chips are down, they are going to do what benefits THEM versus what is in the Best interest of ALL INVOLVED.

[Terwilliger]

106. Beforeathought? Pretty damn good thoughts!

:hi:

I'm so sick of getting angrier than the Dems. I'm sick and tired of being just as angry at the Dems as I am of the Republicans! In these United States of amnesia were most bumper sticker patriots would have trouble distinguishing between a TV guide and the Constitution, boldness is in order to obtain Joe and Jane public’s short attention span. In the past two years a Bold Democratic party is what we call an oxymoron. I don't count presidential candidates and the Texas Dem outlaws, I'm referring to the Democratic party establishment.

Excellent.

[Mairead]

108. 'Democratic Underground' is cap'd because it's a proper noun. I hope.

{T}he new American approach to social control is so much more sophisticated and pervasive that it really deserves a new name. It isn't just propaganda any more, it's 'prop-agenda '. It's not so much the control of what we think, but the control of what we think about. When our governments want to sell us a course of action, they do it by making sure it's the only thing on the agenda, the only thing everyone's talking about. And they pre-load the ensuing discussion with highly selected images, devious and prejudicial language, dubious linkages, weak or false 'intelligence' and selected 'leaks'. (What else can the spat between the BBC and Alastair Campbell be but a prime example of this?)"

(from a Common Dreams article by Brian Eno

[Best_man23]

111. 30,000 Plus people will have varying points of view

Lord knows I don't agree with everything posted on DU, but I don't let those disagreements sway the fact that we are here for a common purpose: accessing factual information, the defeat of Dumbya in 2004, and returning Democrats to power in the Congress.

I describe myself as a Progressive and certainly do not adhere to the current Democratic party line, especially the DLC crap, as I think their strategy is a recipe for keeping repugs in power.

[opihimoimoi]

116. Luauis Gigantis, its one big party man, many happy campers

but there are a few freaks who insist on whining, always a few in every big party.

But is a big party, time to bring Sanity and Reason back into the White House.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

114. I have a question

Why aren't you voting for Cruz Bustamonte? Just curious.

[Room101]

120. I'm not voting for Cruz Bustamonte because I'm ......

Sick of the status quo the apple does not fall far from the tree (Lt. Gov from Gov).

He seems to be saying certain things for the sole purpose of getting elected, Arianna has been speaking and writing about the changes to be made before this whole recall joke. She has talked about closing business loopholes, paying teachers more than prison guards.

[Blue_Chill]

117. Its both and much more

So stop getting annoyed and learn to live with differing view points.

[onecitizen]

121. I feel a lot like you BT..........

and we're not alone. I feel deserted by my party. Have for a while now. I still plan to vote Dem in 2004 just to get bush out of Al Gore's house. After the election, I'm thinking about becoming Independent, depending on how 2004 goes. But if Dems don't wake up, I'm gone. And if the "party" doesn't get behind whoever wins the primary, I think the "party" will die.