Well, my daughter is officially a Kool-aid drinker

[skygazer]

I've been discussing stuff with her for a number of months - I knew she was a Bush suppporter but didn't realize how far gone she was. I sent her an e-mail Friday morning about the debate. Pretty mellow, really, just saying that Bush looked pretty bad and that Kerry clearly came out ahead. I didn't figure I'd hear much back because, what could she really say?

Well, yesterday, I got a long e-mail, no paragraphs, just this rant about how Kerry may have spoken better but Bush had the "better message." Pretty much explaining what Bush had said and what he meant to say and what she 'knows' he thinks and a bunch of bullshit.

How Iraq has long been a haven for terrorists so that's what he meant when he said, "the enemy atttacked us". And how Saddam did too have WMD's and that we can't trust the rest of the world and how is Kerry going to get other nations on our side when Bush can't (duh).

I was shocked. I had no idea she was goose-stepping like that. I e-mailed back and told her that there was no sense in me trying to rebut her e-mail because it was absurd - her 'facts' are incorrect and her reasoning is faulty and I'm not going to waste my time over such nonsense.

This is a girl who is so smart, she taught herself to read at the age of 4. But she married a moran from Kansas and now lives out there with his freeper family and they've evidently been feeding her Kool-Aid at every meal. Damn! I hope she has the grace to feel like an idiot when she's proven wrong but what good does that do if she and her kind prevail?

I am depressed....

[tridim]

1. Replace "daughter" with "my parents"

and you've described my family situation. It's so damn frustrating. I've been working on them since 92, and they still think Clinton is the most evil man on the face of the earth.. Because he "lied about sex".

[JimmyJazz]

7. ditto - parents and brother. It's disheartening. The day after

the debates, we were watching the news (surfing) and my dad starts yelling, "where are all the Republicans?" I didn't say it, but I was thinking "hiding their heads in the sand after that performance."

They think Kerry is the worse than Clinton in some respects, but refuse to accept that Bush and Cheney lie all the time. When Kerry is elected, I know they aren't going to wait until January before they start in on him!

[Vickers]

20. Another one here...replace "daughter" with "sister"

Plus she has this wacky fundy website.

I can't believe she's my sister.

:(

[Andy_Stephenson]

43. Same here 3 sisters and Bothers-in-law

all drinking Kool-aide.

Mom finally woke up and smelled the coffee.

It sucks when you are the only enlightened one in the family. All the more reason to throw it in their faces.

[BurtWorm]

2. That must be extremely painful for you.

It's one of my worst nightmares--short of any physical pain that she might endure--to lose my own daughter to the "other side." I wouldn't know how to deal with that other than to be depressed. I really feel for you!

[catmandu57]

3. I'm sorry Skygazer

Too many of us have family who've went over to the darkside for one reason or another. Losing a daughter is very hard, hopefully, it won't create a permanent rift.

[skygazer]

10. Thanks -

It really sucks. On the one hand, I want to vigorously attack her views and keep bombarding her with information. On the other hand, she is so obviously not going to change her mind and I know if I do that, our relationship will suffer. Christ, it's like having her join the Moonies or something!

My father is a Repug but he is more of the old school - I can debate politics with him and his replies are fairly reasonable. He supports Bush but is not a fanatic like she is (she has framed pictures of the Chimp in her home) and he was willing to concede that Bush did not do well in the debate. She is like a starry eyed acolyte of some dark god.

Oh, it gives me the creeps! :puke:

[NeoConsSuck]

25. Framed pictures of the chimp???

I'm sorry skygazer, but she is way too gone to think reasoning is going to do any good.

[indigobusiness]

4. It is scary seeing this spell cast on intelligent people.

I feel for you. I'm depressed at how the propaganda holds sway. It is stupefying. Can't people see through the fog of these lies?
Apparently not. Critical thinking is unamerican, it seems.

Hang in there.

[CornField]

5. It's a difficult situation

Just try to remember that long after this election is over, she'll still be your daughter. At least, that's what I keep trying to remind myself about some members of my family.

[LDS Jock]

6. I'm sorry to hear all that

but don't let it get in the way of your relationship with her. Some people, even very intelligent ones, seem to have blinders on, unable to recognize anything against what they want to believe. Don't despair! Keep trying, however gently. You may be the only voice of reason she gets to hear.

I have been fortunate to help my sister and her husband see the light. It was very slow going, and may only be for this one election, but they have turned against bush and the republicans. Its great you've been working with her. Maybe she'll turn out to be one more.

[skygazer]

12. that's encouraging

Thanks for the success story - I needed to hear that! I guess that's what I'll do, keep trying to put forth reasoned, clear arguments and avoid the emotional pitfalls. It's like walking a tightrope, isn't it?

[XanaDUer]

8. I am so sorry to hear this , and I feel your pain

I knew I had one wingnut realtive, but by accident, found out another one was, too.

Long rants with no paragraphs seem to be the answer the Kool-Aid drinkers give to anything they perceive as being negative against their Bush.

In reading the snippets you put up, they sound almost exactly the same as what my relative sent me.

It's depressing.

[nostamj]

9. i sent my parents the Eisenhower editorial

DAYS ago...

<crickets>

we NEVER discuss politics but, I had to make one last effort (they are in FL after all...)

this summer, when I had The Question W Revue running, my mother asked what I was doing...

I told her, you don't want to know...

sad, they are probably going to vote to condemn their grandchildren to endless war, a polluted environment and an endless list of deprivations to protect the priviledged.

[PurityOfEssence]

11. Ask her what she thinks about a president who doesn't believe in evolution

Ask her why she likes a guy who uses our fear to settle old family scores and make piles of money. Ask her if she can tell the difference between a secular strongman and a fundamentalist firebrand.

Sorry for your distress, but if she's got a brain and isn't mean, she'll come around.

[skygazer]

14. Abortion and welfare

Those are the two things she flings out with regularity. She is dead set against abortion, refers to those who have one as "murderers" (putting me in that category, by the way, and she knows it).

She keeps insisting that the Dems want everyone on welfare so as to keep them dependent (!) and will not answer when I ask her what the hell the Repugs have ever done to 1) get people off welfare and 2) keep them off.

Like most freepers, there is no logic to her arguments whatsoever and they are so tiresome to answer since I have to address every loony point. She was always a bit more religious than her siblings and I and I think she's well on the way to becoming (dare I say it?) a fundie. :wtf:

Oh, that I have given birth to such a monstrosity!

[Killarney]

17. what does she say in response to the only welfare reform

was passed by a Dem?

I'm so sorry. Unfortunately, it sounds like the influence of the husband. :(

[skygazer]

19. No answer

Every time I've brought up social programs, I've emphasized that I'm not talking about welfare but about programs that help people get off and stay off welfare and that have always been underfunded by Repugs and supported by Dems - job training, after school, child care, etc.

She ALWAYS replies with a rant about welfare and I've argued it till I was blue in the face, pointing out that Dems are the ones who tried to reform it. Still the same so I sent an e asking one question.

What have the Repubs EVER done to
1) get people off welfare and
2) keep them off

That was months ago - never answered. In fact, when I replied to this most recent rant, I sweetly said, "I'm still waiting with bated breath for your answer to the welfare question."

[PurityOfEssence]

26. welfare is imperfect, but SOMETHING has to be done

I hate the Bush "that's flawed" dismissal. Fine. It's a shitty system. There's a problem with human beings in a big system like this: it's easy to get swept under. Do we just dismiss them and let them be trampled? What's Christian about that? There's a problem, if the current fix has problems, then propose a better way. If one doesn't do that, one is selfish, close-minded and just plain mean.

Where conservatives fail abysmally is the "or else" issue. If you fail, what's the sentence? Hoardes of dispossed outcasts aren't any good to anybody; even disregarding the moral issue, failure is a huge drain on society. From a purely selfish vantage, they slow us down, bog down the emergency services, don't provide any tax revenue, scare our kids, steal our things, spread disease, depress the living crap out of us, sully otherwise beautiful cityscapes, don't effectively lend their labor to the common good and just generally spoil everything. The right has no solution to this, because they're whipped up with some Old Testament hatefury of retaliation that's largely rooted in the resentment that they have to work so hard to get by. There's a problem, and it needs to be fixed. People who scorn an imperfect fix without offering a better one are sick, ugly and sinful.

Deep at the heart of Christianity is a selfishness to make sure the daddygod approves of you and pats you on the head for eternity; saving one's self is the primal reality of this faith, and much as the precepts of the philosophy are in many ways noble, this selfishness is the common denominator. Conservatism is selfishness and cocksure belief in one's correctness; that's why the more fundamentalist strains are such a perfect fit.

As for abortion, it's like the death penalty: if you can have a quick and easy answer to either, you're missing the point.

Let's use an ad absurdum argument on abortion: say you're gang-raped by a bunch of truly evil violent oversized thugs. Are you to be sentenced to carrying the offspring to term, risking your life carrying such a large child, taxing your health, and ultimately creating a child that is genetically violent and physically large and fit? What good is that to the world? What does that do to the gene pool? Even if you give it up to adoption, aren't you a willing participant in spreading ugliness in the world? What if you're frail and childbearing of any sort is a risk? Does the male world own you? If an extreme argument gets you thinking, then abortion has its justifications under certain circumstances, and then we're just quibbling about the dividing lines. Oh, that pesk grey area stuff again; how fundies hate it.

[progressivebydesign]

38. Oh.. you poor mom!

It's sad, but you can hear that she's just parroting what she's getting from her husband. Not that you'd ever want her to go through a divorce, but if it ever happened, she'd return to her normal thought process. You raised her right.. but the lure of the male influence is sometimes too much on some women.

[lostnfound]

42. Roe V Wade was decided by Republican-appointed justices

6 justices were appointed by R's -- voted 5 to 1 in favor
3 justices were appointed by D's -- voted 2 to 1 against

I'm so sorry. I can't imagine how heartbreaking it must be for you.

It's hard to swim upstream; she probably doesn't want to think about putting herself in that position if she's immersed in the koolaid.

Personally I think that the abortion issue is such an emotional one that it's easy for some people to cling to it all the harder, in order to justify to themselves having jumped on the RW bandwagon. Maybe instead of focusing on choosing between Dems and W, you'd be more successful in getting her to focus on a third way: her own way. The goal is to get her to recover her OWN voice, right? A person's conscience is unique and each of us carries our own burden (our 'own cross', maybe?). Once you get on a bandwagon, you often stop being true to your own conscience. In defending her one strong position she has taken the easy way out to jump on the * bandwagon with many other positions. If she can start to notice the other little values that are falling by the wayside (out of the wagon), such as a desire for truth, or intellectual curiosity, or peace, and restoring their value in her own mind, maybe she can find her own voice again..?

[freestyle]

44. What about farm subsidies and federal contracts?

Otherwise known as the Kansas economy and a hell of a lot more welfare than any poor folks struggling to raise their children ever get. There is a table somewhere that shows just how dependent the south and parts of the midwest are on the federal government.

[RapidCreek]

75. South Dakota....a state filled with haters of welfare

subsides entirely on welfare. For every one dollar in federal income tax payed by residents of the state of South Dakota, three come back in the form of federal subsidies.

Without welfare South Dakota would cease to exsist.

RC

[yellowjacket]

73. Just don't forget she's still your daughter...n/t

.

[ismnotwasm]

13. I have a friend with a daughter like that

it is very sad, to see this bright young women spout off right wing talking points, without any thought into what she's saying. She lives in logging country, so a lot of it is based on economic fear. Hang in there! I hope your daughter will come around. It sounds as though she is being heavily influenced, and it's very difficult to hold your own when you are surrounded by people who think like that. We all know how rabid they can be.

[fudge stripe cookays]

15. So sorry, skygazer.

I'm beginning to think that for situations like these we need to hire deprogrammers.

Actually do what people do when they help loved ones escape from a cult. Kidnap them, do the tough love thing, isolation with the deprogrammer, whatever methods they use, and literally wake these people up from their deluded state.

I hope you can maintain your relationship. I'm not that strong.
FSC

[Frances]

16. One way I console myself about my freeper relatives

is that they don't live in swing states.

But I do have empathy for you. It really hurts when people you love don't think straight.

[Cleita]

18. Kool-Aid drinkers need personal reminders.

She's a woman so discuss women's issues with her and where the fundie backed administration wants to take women back to. I have talked to a few former Kool-Aid drinkers who are voting for Kerry because something happened to them personally because of Bush. One not only lost her job but said something to the fact that Bush policies ruined her career.

Another was concerned that her rights over her body might be taken away. I think if you talk about any issue that hits home and right now jobs and the draft are good openers, you can sometimes open their eyes. A third had a military aged son who had been solicited by a recruiter, who was ready to join up. She's voting for Kerry now because she knows that if there isn't a resolution to the Iraq mess, the draft will come back.

Don't give up yet and good luck. It will be harder for her to go against the family, but she might be able to influence them if she has the facts.

[skygazer]

21. You know, that's what I try to do

I guess I haven't yet found what might push her buttons. Women's issues won't work - she's a major anti-choice person and pretty close to a fundie herself at this point.

I've tried pointing out how many Dem backed programs she benefitted from growing up but that doesn't seem to make a dent. Economic issues have made no headway. She is all for the war in Iraq on the grounds that "it's better to fight them over there than over here!"

I even pointed out that her brother is 17 and would be ripe for the draft but she insists, "Oh, the President would never do that!"

She is a sheep but I will continue to plug away. How do you give up on your own child?

[Cleita]

41. It's going to be hard but don't give up.

I think if you keep bringing up the fact that her brother can go to war, be maimed, permanently, psychologically damaged or even killed, if Bush is re-elected, you might finally ring a bell. Be patient. Some people are harder to wake up than others and remember many don't like to admit when they're wrong especially to their mothers.

[foo_bar]

65. tell her to vote for Bush

It's a mother-daughter reverse psychology situation. Explain how * is the best thing since Neil Diamond.

[bloom]

22. I''m sorry to hear that

I found out recently that a couple of old friends are "drinking the Kool-aid".

It is depressing.

My son is liberal leaning so far - but I think his fiancé could influence him to be less so. So I've been trying to work on her a little bit - sending her things now and then.

I think I won credibility points when my son was inclined to fall for Powell's UN speech and I insisted Powell had been turned into a pawn. When that became more obvious - he became more likely to trust my instincts.

My parents and siblings are all "Kool-aid" drinkers too. Blah.

[newportdadde]

23. My sister is starting to fall to the darkside.

Growing up in a dirt poor rural Missouri family we were all staunch Democrats but she is going to marry a freeper type guy in Dec. At this point she isn't going to vote but of course he is voting for Bush.

I've thought about trying to turn her back but I think it would just divide us. That and the fiance is a nice guy who I think I could talk to logically also except he is Catholic so I think the republican angle is coming a lot from the pro-life side of things. I think the rest of us are just going to leave the two of them alone.

[ComerPerro]

24. The funniest "Bush did well Thursday" argument I have heard

Is the one that says that "Kerry spoke very well, but Bush had the facts and the truth on his side..."

All I can say is that if Bush does indeed have the facts and the truth on his side, he might want to start using them. Because he sure as hell hasn't yet.

[coalition_unwilling]

27. You might try sending her copy of Fahrenheit 9/11 on DVD.

It's supposed to be out Oct. 5 on Amazon pre-orders.

We'll see how she feels when the toll of U.S. service people reaches 10,000 KIA and 100,000 wounded (extrapolating from current trends and 4 more years of the same).

I am sorry to hear that families are starting to get divided over this. This above all really gives the lie to Bush's claim that he's "a uniter, not a divider."

[Pepperbelly]

28. Call the de-programers!

(Batman theme) nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-LEADER!

Seriously though ... all you can do is explain your p.o.v. with facts martialed and taut logic and let her be as she is.

[Cheswick2.0]

29. I think DU would be happy to help you with a factual response

links to proof that she is wrong and links to conservative and other republicans who are against him.
Don't give up on her yet.

[skygazer]

30. Thanks, Cheswick

I regularly send her just that sort of thing - I sent her a good article from Slate today about the "global test" thing, because I knew she'd jump on that. I know she gets all her info from extreme RW sources so I try to balance it with factual evidence - doesn't seem to penetrate much, as evidenced by the way she still insists Saddam had WMD's (that was the line that really depressed me).

DU is such a great resource - I have saved so many useful links and they have proven very helpful in converting a number of people. My daughter seems to be a tougher nut than most (and I use the term "nut" to denote "wingnut").

How embarrasing! I've given birth to a freeper! ~blush~

[calimary]

51. What's the Slate article? Got a link?

Thanks in advance.

I am sorry you have to go through this, with your OWN daughter, and even worse, with your OWN son near draft-age. YIKES!!!!!!!!! My sympathies, truly! I'd shake my head in dismay if one of my kids turned like that. I've literally told them that if they ever find themselves feeling compelled to vote republi-CON, PLEASE at least wait til after I'm dead. Then I point to Jackie Onassis and her fear of her son flying. She TOLD him it was a bad idea. He waited til after she died to start flying lessons. The rest is history. And turns out he should have listened to his mom. And then I say - "SEE?!?!?!?"

[skygazer]

54. Here's the link

http://slate.msn.com/id/2107690/


I like the Jackie Onassis analogy - think I'll use that just for the lighter side of things (not that her son getting creamed in an airplane is "light").

[calimary]

57. Thanks!

Just a really warped sense of humor here, sorry! But truly, I use this frequently. I think the last time was when my daughter's boyfriend or some similar non-family member was over. It got a chuckle and a LOT of head-nodding.

[greenman3610]

31. kool aid

[lastliberalintexas]

32. How old is she?

How old is her husband? You might try giving her information about the possible draft.

I've swayed a couple of people by talking to them about the war, their lack of service, etc. *IF* she is willing to discuss this issue and actually consider it, then she might start asking herself if she would be willing to die or lose her husband for Shrub's wars. If not, then she can't justify voting for him and condemning others to that fate.


But that takes, logic, and from what I've seen of these people it's in very short supply. Good luck- and don't give up.

[skygazer]

40. She's 24, he's a few years older

I've mentioned the draft but that has made no impression. She doesn't believe that "her" President would ever do such a thing (that's one of the things that drives me nuts - she dismisses my criticism of the Patriot Act by insisting that the administration won't use it for improper purposes. I don't know why she thinks they have such moral principle).

I really think that a lot of the reason she joined the cult so enthusiastically is because she knew I would be appalled. I think it's almost a form or rebellion, in a way, stemming from resentment she holds about her childhood (my second husband turned out to be a nightmare and, rather than blame him, she blames me).

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

53. You are probably right about that.

It does sound like rebellion. She might not even believe all of the things she tells you. She might just be trying to make you upset. I would continue on exposing the truth to her, to show that you do care about her making the right decisions, but really try hard not to act upset about her conservative opinions.

[jean]

33. send What's The Matter Kansas, by Thomas Frank to her asap

We're reading it up here in Minnesota. My husband has been referring to passages from the book when talking to his kool aid drunk sister. It seems to be making a dent.

Here's the Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805073396/qid=1096910451/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_2_1/002-9775778-4452861

[Tsiyu]

34. Hey, Skygazer, I'm sorry

We all have relatives/friends ( ex-friends in my case with some) who have gone the way of the Darkside. My heart goes out to all of you who posted here about this hideous family dysfunction.

After trying to engage them in polite discourse about the differences between * and Kerry, I find the convo always comes back to welfare and abortion.

You see, only poor people and women are evil.

Corporations run by men don't suck off the public teat; men don't kill their wives and girlfriends. Only poor people commit the crime of being needy. Only women commit the crime of death for expediency's sake.

Rich Caucasian men didn't run California's energy system into the ground. Men aren't plotting where to aim the next bomb, with full knowledge that innocent children will no doubt be murdered.

You cannot reason with these people. I have found a disproportionate number of them are taking Zanax.

With PTSD and someone I love "over there" I cannot discuss these issues calmy. I am very passionate about my beliefs. Everyone is staying away from the topic around me. If they are dumb enough to bring up their BushLove, I quote Scripture and just give the sumbitch hell. They get the deer-in-the-headlights look and shut up.


edited because my modifier was dangling....

[zbdent]

35. Explain to her that you love her, but

don't expect any help, since she believes in being a self-made person, despite all the help she got from everyone else. I would love it if she was expecting some sort of windfall from you. Ask her if there is anything special to her that she would like to have. When she says so, SELL IT AND GIVE THE MONEY TO CHARITY.

Does she swallow the line about how there was no "village" raising her?

[progressivebydesign]

36. Don't feel badly.. Unfortunately this happens a lot..

It's sad, but many times women are the ones that absorb the man's politics when they get in a relationship. I hate it! But I've seen it so many times. My husband's mother, a staunch Democrat from a family of staunch democrats, is now a RUSH LIMBAUGH FAN! She hates Clinton, Gore, Kerry, etc., and whines about how THEIR taxes are paying for OTHER people too lazy to work, etc. She changed into that upon marrying a very, very rightwing guy from the South. She's the only one in the family, except my husband's brother who became a born-again and supports Bush because "he's Godly!".

Women, sadly, do this all the time. Perhaps we, as a society, aren't doing enough to educate and involve women in the political process, and asking them to examine the political process rationally.

I'm making sure all of my stepkids are extremely knowledgable about politics.. not just my views, but the entire political world.

[skygazer]

37. That's a good point

I've seen that myself many times. I, on the other hand, being a mouthy, opinionated bitch, have turned my hubby from a non-voting guy who kind of leaned Republican when he actually gave it any thought, into a card-carrying Democrat who will be voting for the first time ever on Nov. 2nd. :party:

It's nice to score SOME victories.

[progressivebydesign]

39. Hee, hee me too!

I agree with all you just wrote!! My sister is the same way, and has converted her husband, too! We have our small victories, don't we!??

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

62. I think in my family it is the opposite.

I have stronger political opinions than my husband does. He grew up in a conservative family. He wasn't ever a strong conservative, because he never really valued his parents opinions (they lied to him a lot). He really started to question his upbringing in college. I think being with me has helped a little, but I credit him for making the change and becoming a liberal.

Back to the topic about married women and politics...

Self-esteem and education seem to be important factors in how independent a woman is from her husband. I think some women are very submissive, and they let their husbands' opinions override their own for the sake of avoiding arguments. Over time, they some how persuade themselves that their husbands' ideas are better than their ideas. They eventually come to accept their husbands' ideas as their own. This is how a lot of married women have been converted into conservatives.

[K. F. Gibbons]

45. pick one point that she makes and beat her over the head with

it until she submits to you and admits she is wrong on that point. Then pick another one. You have to have your research and do this one point at a time. Pick the WMD point first. Send her the testimony of Dr. Kay.

[DURHAM D]

46. I know how you feel. My parents, siblings, aunts and uncles

all live in Kansas. They never turn off Fox. Her only chance is to move out of Kansas. Your best help is to read "What's the Matter with Kansas" if you have not already. It helped me to understand my family much better.

[xxqqqzme]

47. your - daughter

me- my mother...same story, same narrow head space. I haven't talked 2 her since June.

[skygazer]

48. Update

Just received a new 'e in response to my taunt about the welfare question. In it, she dodges that question but starts in about the tax cuts.

"By the way, can you please explain to me why, if these tax cuts are "tax cuts for the rich," did I get a tax break? I got almost 8,000 dollars back last year. These were tax cuts for everyone that paid taxes (and some that didn't, with the child tax credit and the EIC). Everyone does include rich people, but it also includes middle class and poor people. Of course rich people got more dollars back, because they paid more. But we all got the same percentage. That, to me, seems like the fairest way to go about it. Personally, I would like to see a flat income tax. Everyone paying the same percentage of their wages seems much fairer to me than to have some people paying nothing and others paying over 50% of what they earn. Why does being rich make people think that you owe them something?"

My reply:

I have absolutely no idea what your tax situation may have been prior to Bush’s tax cuts or after them. What I do know is that the GAO (a non partisan government office) recently released data which showed unequivocally that the tax cuts put the burden of taxes directly on the middle class. Also, we did not all get the same percentage back. The percentage was higher for the higher brackets. Not only that, your reasoning is seriously flawed if you feel that everyone should bear the same percentage of the tax burden. Every civilized nation in the world recognizes that the rich have far more disposable income than the poor. They have more opportunities for investment which allows them to make still more money while the poor and middle class require virtually all their funds to maintain their lifestyle. By taxing the rich at a higher percentage, it allows those in the less wealthy categories a chance to keep some of the money they’ve earned which will hopefully help them to make more money. This in turn stimulates the economy. This is not some devious plan to milk the rich – it is a common sense approach which is followed by the world. The rich have more ways of protecting their money from being taxed as well as more opportunity to make money. They are not losing money by paying a higher percentage of taxes, not by a long shot. And if you look at the percentages of the total amount of assets held by people compared to what they actually pay in taxes, you’ll find that the very wealthiest pay a fraction of the percentage of what most of us do, because their money is protected. Even your boy Georgie admitted that, when he said that the rich find ways of not paying taxes on their money.



I find it hysterical that you feel the need to defend the richest 2% of people in this country, a group you will never attain membership in, especially under the leadership of GW Bush. You might find it enlightening to read the book, “What’s the Matter With Kansas?” by Thomas Frank, that is, if you’re really open minded enough to read a different viewpoint than your own. It is available at most public libraries.

[Petrodollar Warfare]

50. I'd purchase and *mail * her a copy of the book as a gift...

...just suggesting to her to read it at the Library probably won't work. However, given that her husband is actually from Kansas - and the author, a former Republican also grew up in Kansas - she might stand a chance of reading actually it (Heck, he might too!)

I just bought my copy Friday, and have only begun to read it. Here's the Amazon link and the book description.

Bottom line, I'd spend the $17 + shipping and send her the copy, its worth $25 if she begins to see the issue from an outside perspective.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805073396/qid=1096916691/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/103-1829854-5807019?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Book Description
One of “our most insightful social observers”* cracks the great political mystery of our time: how conservatism, once a marker of class privilege, became the creed of millions of ordinary Americans

With his acclaimed wit and acuity, Thomas Frank turns his eye on what he calls the “thirty-year backlash”—the populist revolt against a supposedly liberal establishment. The high point of that backlash is the Republican Party’s success in building the most unnatural of alliances: between blue-collar Midwesterners and Wall Street business interests, workers and bosses, populists and right-wingers.

In asking “what ’s the matter with Kansas?”—how a place famous for its radicalism became one of the most conservative states in the union—Frank, a native Kansan and onetime Republican, seeks to answer some broader American riddles: Why do so many of us vote against our economic interests? Where’s the outrage at corporate manipulators? And whatever happened to middle-American progressivism? The questions are urgent as well as provocative. Frank answers them by examining pop conservatism—the bestsellers, the radio talk shows, the vicious political combat—and showing how our long culture wars have left us with an electorate far more concerned with their leaders’ “values” and down-home qualities than with their stands on hard questions of policy.

A brilliant analysis—and funny to boot—What’s the Matter with Kansas? presents a critical assessment of who we are, while telling a remarkable story of how a group of frat boys, lawyers, and CEOs came to convince a nation that they spoke on behalf of the People.

[Neecy]

66. It really is an amazing book

I'd recommend the Franks book as well. I bought it a few months ago and I've been passing it around to friends and family - and it's made a big impression on everyone. It's a lively read, considering the subject matter, and really exposes how Republican fiscal policy is destroying the middle class, the family farmers, and small rural communities. These destructo-Repubs stay in power through divisive social issues, like our good friend Sam Brownback, and then stick it to the same people who voted for them. It's a must-read for anyone living in a red state.

[alexisfree]

49. oh my lord!!!

she is gone...I am sorry to be insensitive but She will not change her mind till she gets her as kick, I change my husband from hardcore conservative republican to liberal...it took me 11 years to do so.. I am so sorry feel bad for her and the life of her children. She needs to see the pictures of the Iraqi children dying for just being there. ...can your daughter handle life??
And ""bush has take their right to be alive and he is pro-life right?"" how the she feel another country will invade us and she freaking bombs falling on her children. She and her husband will be sheeting in horror. Got to go I am getting upset.

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. I am so sorry *hugs*

[UdoKier]

55. Bummer. I'm brainwashing the hell out of my kids.

Hope it takes.

[w4rma]

56. First step: Meticulously refute the facts that are the basis for her POV.

If she is logical, she'll start questioning her faith in the Republican Party and Bush.

And, this stuff about wasting time refuting her illogical opinion is a cop out, imho. You should spend the time to refute it. In fact, you may be the only person who can.

Don't get frustrated. It will probably take a long time as she seems totally brainwashed.

[skygazer]

61. Pardon me if I get offended by your "cop-out" remark

You have no idea how long I have been refuting, step by step, point by point, these ridiculous, right wing, jackass opinions. I do it damn near every single week and today alone, have answered five different e-mails, many of them long, containing innumerable factual errors and wacko opinions.

All the time I do it, I'm trying to maintain a balance, trying not to personally ridicule or offend, while refuting stuff she accepts as gospel. I research, I send links, articles, archives, anything I can think of that might cut through the fog.

Don't get frustrated? ~maniacal laughter~ Frustrated came about 8 months ago!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. Every time she comes up with one of her talking points, ask

"Why do you believe that? What makes you so sure? Please explain to me how you know that."

This is an especially good rejoinder to her claims that the Bushies "would never do anything like that."

Also, her husband and his family may be emotionally abusive, and you may want to ask her if she is afraid to consider opinions different from those of her husband and in-laws.

[Neecy]

59. maybe this will help...

I worked a MoveOn bake sale over the summer - it was totally fun and I met some great people. And yes, it was in Kansas. Some liberals still live here.

A woman helping with the sale told me with a laugh that her son was a Republican and he was a die-hard Bush supporter. When I asked her how she was dealing with it, she said she was fine - it just showed that she'd raised him to be independent and to think for himself.

That's one positive spin to put on it - and maybe it's the only spin you can have to keep perspective and maintain a relationship with your daughter.

[mitchum]

60. My sympathies (sorry about your daughter being an idiot)

[skygazer]

63. Thanks, mitchum

That's it in a nutshell! :silly:

[Justpat]

64. Same situation here. Both brothers

are rabid republicans. The older one is an eye surgeon, the younger
one owns his own home remodeling company. They are not stupid people
except then it comes Bush. I cannot undersand it. It has gotten to
the point in our family that we no longer speak to one another except
about the most superficial things.

The sad thing is we grew up in a home where it was considered a sin
to vote republican. My grandmother was vice-chairwoman of the Democratic party in Indiana for many years and we grew up with the
example of her activism. Now my brothers are two stone idiots when
it comes to politics.

[yardwork]

67. Yikes! As a parent of teenagers, I wonder if this will happen to me

All we can do is raise our children as best we can, make sure they know we love them, and hope that we give them the tools they need to make their way in the world.

I don't know how old your daughter is, but it sounds like she is fairly young (maybe 20s or 30s?). I went through a late rebellious phase against my family's values during those decades of my life. It's true that our partners and their families influence our thoughts. However, sooner or later the core values come through.

I have a feeling that when your daughter is middle-aged she will be a lot more thoughtful and skeptical about any one party line than she is now.

Edited - I just reread this thread and saw your post stating that she is 24. She is definitely rebelling against you and your values and trying on her husband's family's values for size.

My advice? Leave her be for a while. Don't argue with her, just bombard her with love and support for the personal things in her life. Take an interest in her job, her kids, her mother-in-law, her home - whatever is of personal interest to her. Give politics a rest. You will lose this battle but potentially win the war. Eventually your daughter will realize that you are a valuable member of her life and she'll be more inclined to listen to you.

[TexasSissy]

68. You didn't raise that girl right! (just kidding) But seriously, I am

a Democrat, and my dad is a born again Christian Right. How did I end up being the only Democrat in my family? Don't know (well, I moved away fairly young and got exposed to the "big city"). But really, my dad has no cause to complain. He COULD have made sure I'd end up being far right Christian, but he was too busy out drinkin' with his girlfriends. So....he can't really criticize me for finding my own way, I figure. And I found the RIGHT way, which was the LEFT way.

Could be simply that your daughter was raised in a different era that focused on material things and money....the "ME" generation? That's a Republican philosophy. MY generation, on the other hand, was at the end of the hippie era, so more of us ended up Democrats, I'd guess.

[skygazer]

69. Maybe

That's a funny idea. My dad was a Goldwater Republican. I mean, he still thinks Vietnam was a "just" war. And I have been a total liberal (or, as he puts it, a damned hippie radical) as long as I can remember - we're probably the same generation. I was born in '61.

This daughter is the oldest. Her sister is more like me, a liberal free spirit. I tried to raise them to be aware of the world around them, to be concerned about human rights, the environment, fairness in government, etc. but somewhere I went wrong with that one. :(

I blame her husband and his family (easier than blaming myself!) - seriously, I think they've had a major influence on her and have brought out the latent fundie in her being.

It's so hard.... it's hard work bringing up these kids. You try not to send mexed missages but they don't listen. It's hard work...

[TexasSissy]

76. I appreciate your "hard werk." I mean, that's your job, right?

I don't have kids, so I am just guessing, but I can imaging that it's "hard werk" to raise kids and that you wake up every morning with that on your mind. It's just hard werk, I'm sure.

(pssst----I'm older than you are. But don't tell anyone.)

[mwdem]

70. I live in Kansas,

where do they live? I'm actually from the east coast, now in Johnson County. Believe it or not, I have not seen a lot of Bush/Cheney signs at all, yet. Maybe there's hope out here! Sorry about your daughter, and how this reflects on your relationship.

[SoCalDem]

71. When her husband's job is outsourced, she will see the light

Or maybe she just won't.. You can only influence "kids" just so-far..

The rightwing message that people get in "red states" is overwhelming, and highly effective..

I saw this myself with my LIBERAL son.. He had a job for a while that involved a lot of driving, and I started to hear "Rushisms" coming out of his mouth.. I asked him what he listened to in his truck..YUP..Rush & the gang was all that was on the radio, so it's no wonder that people pick up on this drivel..

I set him straight, but had to admit that the way the information is "presented" is just as important as what's said.. and if you only hear ONE side presented over and over and over and over, it's not hard to see why some people end up believing the talking heads..

It will take a personal "event" for your daughter to see the light.. and she may NEVER see it..

You may just have to agree to disagree, and stay away from politics altogether :hug:

[JimmyJazz]

72. check you inbox

[JimmyJazz]

74. kick - someone pm me.