So just when did Dean walk on water here at DU?

[retyred]

I’ve been gone a while just to let the Gore love fest diminish a bit only to find a Dean love fest in full swing. It was touch and go for a while there with a possible gush/bore rematch but thankfully sanity prevailed.

Out of curiosity, do the Dean supporters here actually believe he’s the great white hope of the left? The white knight of the party? The changer of all bush misdeeds? Forget that the press loves him, forget that he’s been on magazine covers, forget that for all general purposes the bush camp loves him enough to be conspicuously quiet about him (this fact alone should raise red flags). But is what he’s preaching what you find most appealing in your candidate for President? Or is it that you think he’s the best chance to beat “action hero george” damn the principles? Are his lies/change of hearts less grating than monkey boy’s?

If any of you remember the Florida mid-terms, we had a Dean, McBride….all the right words, all the right moves, all the right ammo to beat the smart bush boy, hell he even had jeb on tape saying how he was going to screw the voters if they passed the smaller class size amendment, yet he somehow just couldn’t get it right after the primary, suddenly he had the wrong words, the wrong moves, and his ammo turned to blanks, jeb couldn’t have bought a better opponent than Dean lite McBride.

I may be wrong, but with Dean it’s just too much of what’s not right to be right, and like McBride I see a last minute dive coming should he get the nomination of the left. He’s too slick, too polished to be real. Hell, even his own constituents say he’s not the same Dean they’ve seen for the past ten years, The new Dean is Liberal now……BULLSHIT!

I’ve heard it said that those over at FR don’t care what george does as long as their guy won (was selected), is this what Dean represents to you? As Carvel said, not the lesser of two evils, but the evil of the two lessers?

I see no reason other than Dean being the best chance we have at beating bush to get behind the man, I’ve had almost three years of conservative rule to except moderate rule as a better way, and for all the right words, all the right moves, all the right ammo to be just a way to the top is not what this liberal is willing to except.

Just my 2 cents!


Retyred IN FLA.

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. When he was annointed with the sacred Oil of AIPAC

And pledged loyalty to the Likud party and the generation of additional revenues for the defense and petroluem industries no matter how many lives it costs.

[deutsey]

2. The press love him?

Check out: http://www.progressive.org/sept03/rc0903.html

And I remember before Dean had his first successful contribution drive, he was being ignored by the more conservative media and dismissed by the "liberal" punditry. Margaret Carlson, in fact, assured everyone back in May or June that Dean's star was fading. Then he raises half a million dollars (from mostly small contributions) and suddenly they take him seriously.

Prior to the recent mainstream coverage, the only publication I know of that featured a decent write up about him was In These Times (a leftie publication, BTW): http://www.inthesetimes.org/comments.php?id=206_0_1_0_M

I don't know that Dean sees himself as some great liberal emancipator; in fact, I believe he doesn't. The media and conservatives try to smear him with "McGovern liberal" attacks and all that.

[Sterling]

19. Thats where he lost me too.

If he really thinks the media "loves" Dean he has not been paying attention or lacks the media skills to know any better.

Maybe Dean is a Wolf in Sheeps clothing but it is hard to figure out how the platform Dean runs on helps Bush.

[roughsatori]

3. You don't like people "loving" Gore or Dean

Who do you lean toward supporting?

[retyred]

8. Right Now

No one....the core values have somehow been blurred to the point that either they don't matter to those running or their too afraid to speak their minds with what the party should be and where their willing to take it, most are bush lite with hopes some of those on the right will like them cause their not left enough of center to be left.


Retyred IN FLA.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Back in March..it was really amazing..nothing was on TV so I watched

Just kidding. He has scored big for his stand against the invasion of Iraq, which since he wasn't in congress nor the senate didn't have to vote on (easy to defend his record on that one, he doesn't have one)

He has had lots of press and isn't part of a body that LOST seats in the last election.

I think he has done a great job of getting grass roots support and inspiring voters ...he knows how to organize so I will give him props for that.

He has done well in all the debates I have seen so I will give him that as well.

He straddles the issues well.

I'm still not decided though so I really was just joking about the walking on water thingy...but he did take a bucket of it and come up with a great chardonnay...too bad I'm not much of a white wine fan :D

[blm]

7. "White wine...why bother?"

I think that quote is from Oscar Levant. I agree with the sentiment.

[Malikshah]

5. Uh..McBride???

Are you kidding?

McBride was the establishment pick from the get go. A bug-eyed, political neophyte who desperately needed an oil change. He was so robotic it made me cringe any time he showed up.

Of course, this is just what the Jebbies wanted. Why the heck did they run countless ads against McBride during the primary season? They wanted folks to think they were afraid of McBride--anyone with half a brain saw through this. Alas--the Democratic "leadership" of this state proved to be spineless and scared...and petulant.

Janet Reno did not wish to play their game, their way--so they did everything in their power to recruit McBride. It was so damn obvious--it was like they were working for the Bush family.

Why the rant?

The logic of your Dean=McBride is what has already cost the Democrats the 2000 and 2002 elections. It has cost the US countless lives, it has cost the Iraqis and Afghanistanis countless lives.
It has cost the US millions of jobs and trillions of dollars.

Dean is anything but McBride...wake up and shake off the taint of the DNC/DLC--we need our country back--for our sake, our children's sake and the world's sake.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I Won't Speak To Dean

but if you think Janet Reno could have beat Jeb Bush I have some high and dry land in the Everglades I'd like to sell you...

[AP]

38. I think she would have put up a better fight than McBride

At least she would have brought out all the energized Dems. McBride was so new, nobody cared. Reno at least had been involved in Fla politics before and would have the party machine working a little more diligently for her. And if she had even come close, it would have been seen as a positive for Clinton. McBride, however, was a blow-out.

[Malikshah]

95. Guess we'll never know...

There's no telling what would have happened...

The democrat "leadership" of florida made damn sure of that.

Too bad folks can't think outside the box.

Reno had great ideas and inspired many folks--she most likely would have won the primary, had the folks down here in my neck of the woods gotten their collective heads out of their asses and made sure the voting system worked (yes, I'm looking at you Miriam Olyphant)

The Democrat "leadership" of this state has so much ammunition against the Republicans but is 1) too scared 2) to stupid to use it effectively.

Jeb is a disgusting hack job of a person, a horrible "family man," consorts with criminals and is one of the least inspiring speakers I have ever had the misfortune of coming across. And yet he won 2 elections....

Gee--ya think the Democrat "leadership" could get over themselves and realize that new candidates/new tactics etc. are needed????

[AP]

36. The way jiacinto loved McBride so much and hated Reno made me

suspicious.

[blm]

9. Jan. 23...when he called more liberal Dems, "Bushlite"

He coopted the language of the internet message boards. They cheered his debasement of the other Democratic candidates and the Dem party. No matter that his record aligned with Bush's more than any other candidate, they liked his rhetoric, it sounded like them.

[unfrigginreal]

15. It makes a difference what internet boards you coopt...

A Democrat coopting language used here on DU is smart, a Democrat coopting language used on FR is stupid.

[blm]

17. Never said it wasn't clever.

But, it doesn't make it honest.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

21. OH MY FUCKING GOD!

He dared say "Bush-lite."

[Eloriel]

58. Oh, honest -- like YOUR candidate?

Or for that matter, you?

Puh-leez.

Eloriel

[blm]

66. Don't blame me because Dean was pushpolling

in Iowa against Gephardt, Kerry and Edwards and you want to downplay what pushpolling is to make Dean seem innocent.

Pushpolling is calling supporters of other candidates and reinforcing negative perceptions of them while conducting a poll.

You want to paint me as a liar, well have at it. Maybe you can explain exactly how and when I lied and WHY you insist on labeling me a liar?

[JVS]

85. is that a "Get over it!" reference?

[Sinistrous]

31. Oh. please, blm.

"No matter that his record aligned with Bush's more than any other candidate"

In so far as they were both governors, you are correct. However, the content and achievements of their tenures could not have been more different.

[blm]

48. Issue by issue

he is closer to Bush's stance than any of the more liberal candidates he smeared as Bushlite.

My claim is more valid than Dean's.

[Nazgul35]

46. again....

it appears that only you are the individual most qualified to see the light...Dean supporters are either stupid or stoned....

And of course you have the correct answers, you see the true candidate and all others are infidels....

try leaving behind that 18th century thinking and stop attacking people whom you have absolutely no way of knowing why they make the choices they have....

As I have posted to you before many threads ago....I live in a universe where the dimensions are mulit-...there is no black and white, no single dimension issue space...

As a supporter of Dean, I was initially drawn to him after looking at the other candidate's positions IN TOTALITY! I am sophisticated enough to understand the nuance of what he was saying about the Iraq situation...so stop being dismissive of other people's decision making process because you are frustrated that the person you have chosen to support isn't doing as well...there's plenty of time and if Dean is everything you say he is, than he won't be able to win the nomination....people are serious about removing Bush and won't settle for anyone not up to the task...

[blm]

52. SBNA...

Some But Not All Dean supporters. Geez, Nazgul, what makes you think I'm talking about ALL of his supporters? I'm speaking generally about some of the DU support because I watched it go down all these months.

I am calling Dean out the same way today that I did when he first started attacking the others with lies when he was polling at 2%. So your theory that I dislike him out of misplaced frustration is demonstrably false.

You all can take as many shots at me as you want. I don't attack you personally, and certainly not the way that many of you think it is OK to attack me personally.

[Nazgul35]

56. because you do not make that distinction...

in your thread above...what you wrote was:

He coopted the language of the internet message boards. They cheered his debasement of the other Democratic candidates and the Dem party. No matter that his record aligned with Bush's more than any other candidate, they liked his rhetoric, it sounded like them.

I guess it's ok to insult the intellegence of whole groups of people....as long as you're not specific about who you are talking about....

[blm]

59. It was established here at DU a while ago

that we should all know that we aren't talking about ALL of any group. I should have used the SBNA, but, cripe, why single me out?

YOU seem to think it's OK to change my reasons for what I say.

You seem to think it's OK for a candidate to catch a break after he has lied about Democrats that I care about.

But, that's OK. Who cares?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

65. Instead of focusing on "the some," why not focus on "the most?"

Give up your hatred of the "Bush-lite" digs and move on. Your intelligence and spirit could be put to such better uses.







Edit: Meant for my pal #59.

[blm]

67. Gee...forget about the last 7 months because

it helps the guy who threw the first twenty punches at Democrats that I care about.

Would you?

[unfrigginreal]

64. Here's a lie that Dean will never be able to top!

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA): Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

And Mr. Secretary, I join my colleagues in thanking you for your presentation yesterday, for its quality and its content. I think that we are all gratified that the administration finally came to the United Nations and made its case to the world. And many of us have said that the hard diplomatic work and the work of educating America have been too long in the coming. I think the road would have been much easier for you to this moment, and I think the road would be easier in the days ahead, had the administration listened to you. I know your position has always been to try to maximize that international effort, and I think this is a vindication of your position and of the many of us here in the Congress who have long pushed for something less unilateral and more of the hard work of diplomacy.

I don't want to go into the -- I think the case you made yesterday speaks for itself. For those who look for a smoking gun, there is really a kind of smoking gun -- I mean, it doesn't have to be the gun itself that is smoking. It can be evidence which makes clear the effort to move the gun around before it's actually smoking, and I think you made a very powerful case with respect to that, and that is important here. And people need to look at it dispassionately, nonpartisanly and with the security interests of our country in mind.

http://usembassy.state.gov/mumbai/wwwhwashnews130.html

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

68. Ouch!

[blm]

69. Same page as Clinton.

Who doesn't understand by now that ALL of these men had been lied to about WMDs since Clinton's tenure?

Even Dean said last March that he was "never in doubt...the necessity to remove the weapons of mass destruction."

It's in his released statement when the war started. You'll have to dig for it, though. The campaign scrubbed the statement of March 17. Curiously, the campaign scrubbed ALL of Dean's statements from March 10 to April 9 from his own site.

[unfrigginreal]

73. How many Dem's are you willing to smear for your candidate?

Let's see, Dean and Clinton, that's two...is there any Democratic candidate or politician that you won't try to smear for your half-assed candidate?

[blm]

92. What are you talking about?

There is absolutely NO smear in what I said. Clinton and Kerry being on the same page on Iraq is a smear on WHAT planet?

Dean's position was never far off Kerry's if you analyzed both. Now...where is the smear? Did I say something about his personal life? Did I say anything about the way he talks, dresses, or looks? Did I lie about his policy? Where's the smear?

[blm]

93. Correction...if you dig for it

you can find it in the archives. They did remove it from the main collection of statements.

This is from Dean's own page of released statements/articles. Nothing from March 10 to April 9.
..........
Dean Presents 7-Point Plan for Multilateral Reconstruction in Iraq
Washington, D.C. (April 9, 2003)

State labor leaders like all that Dean did for health care in Vermont
Shir Haberman, Portsmouth Herald (March 10, 2003)

All Criticize Bush but Diverge on Iraq
By Dan Balz, The Washington Post (February 22, 2003)
.........

[alcuno]

10. It started during the invasion of Iraq.

All the other candidates went quiet (as if they were not quiet before) and Dean just kept on going. I believe that he refused to suspend his campaign.

[Cha]

16. That's right! Thanks for bringing that up!

:kick:

[YouNotMyBoss]

11. He only walks on water because

he has not been required to swim yet.

[haymaker]

12. Let the chips fall, it's early

by the way.

And one more thing, if you don't like the Bush/Gore rematch you are a wuss.

[retyred]

41. That's right

Gore grew a beard, and still thinks Lieberman is a good man, much better candidate now.

Why was it so many cried not Gore when the thought of Clinton being impeached and forced from office, yet got behind him with a vengence when he ran for President beside his being the best we had?

Had he somehow become the Dem Al wonderful?


Retyred IN FLA.

[Jacobin]

13. Who's your choice for a love fest?

[retyred]

43. Clark if he runs

None if he doesn't



Retyred IN FLA.

[Eloriel]

60. Clark. Why am I not surprised

Bah.

I'm getting so sick of this. I mean REALLY sick of it.

Eloriel

[Cha]

14. Who cares what the "bush camp" thinks of Dean....They don't

campaign according to whistle ass'es agenda!

I like Dean because he was speaking out against the attack on Iraq way back before it became popular! Back when I needed to hear someone saying that and also talkin' about gettin' our Country Back!

Since then Dean has run an amazing campaign and he's out there callin' bush on his lies...And Dean has a record in Vermont to back up his plans for our Country! I like his energy and his ability to inspire People to get into politics who never have been involved before! :kick:

So to compare Dean to McBride is not to know very much about Dean.

Another thing I like about Dean is that he's a Real Person...not one of these "who can do no wrong"..."that walks on water".

Dean makes mistakes but he always tries to confront and correct them.

Dean isn't afraid to take on the bush crime family.

[JanMichael]

18. McBride (who I volunteered for) was TERRIBLE in the debates.

He allowed Jethro to LIE repeatedly without challenging him, amazing really. Frankly I couldn't believe that he was a freakin' trial lawyer. I thought they had to be decent public speakers?

Anyway, bad comparison.

[Cha]

20. I had such High Hopes for McBride! I was in contact with them

from up here in New York! I wanted someone to beat jeeb so Badly!

The very first debate with Daryl Jones, McBride, and Janet Reno..I thought McBride did well and I was for him! But then in the debates with jeeb..he just sucked. And I thought the same.."aren't trail lawyers suppose to be good speakers?"

Anyway in retrospect I guess it should have been Janet who won the primary! :-(

[JanMichael]

26. That's the first time that I'd selected a candidate for the wrong reasons.

I thought he was "More electable" than Reno, who I prefered...

That's the last time I do that.

I'm glad that I wasn't the only one shocked by a bumbling high powered trial lawyer.

[Cha]

32. I think a lot of People went for McBride because they thought

he could beat jeeb and Janet didn't stand much of a chance when it was probably the other way around!

More of jeeb's "devious plans"!

[retyred]

49. The plan never was to challenge

it was only to get rid of Reno so jeb could run against a mock opponent and win with mock legitamacy, McBride was a stepping stone for a second jeb term.


Retyred IN FLA.

[WillyT]

22. It Was On ESPN, Didn't You See It ???

During the final round of the Water Sports competition. Most of the other candidates were too water logged from the 'Bobbing For Bush' event, and sank like stones. A few of the others, Kucinich, Sharpton, Bruan, etc... were just able to Stand On Water. But Dean, because of some SERIOUS MOMENTUM was able to scoot right across the water without the assistance of the DLC ski craft.

Shoulda been there man, it was awesome!!!

:evilgrin:

On edit: Damned subject line.

[w4rma]

23. A) Dean is a moderate

B) IMHO, Dean is running an *awesome* campaign and knows how to play political hardball. I think he's the most skilled politician the Democratic Party has seen seen FDR.
C) He's building a grassroots political army that is more organized and larger than any grassroots political army in America, ever.
D) His campaign is extremely decentralized.
E) His stands on the issues aren't liberal, but they are all very defendable and every one is an improvement over Bush's stands.

If Gov. Dean can't beat Gov. Bush, noone can.

The situtation as I see it:
Bush will have at least a 400% advantage (200 million, beating the/his previous record of 100 million) over any Democrat who takes matching funds.
The media is more in control of the big corporations than ever before in America's history, with the exception of the internet.
Bush is doing a horrible job on every single issue (even though he isn't polling poorly on every issue, yet), but the corporate media covers for him whenever they can.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. A Small Point

Aren't C and D mutually exclusive?

[retyred]

57. So you support Dean

because he's a Moderate? And this is OK?

Because he's better than bush? Why, because he's a Moderate?

How much better will he be than bush if elected being a Moderate?

And again, is being better than bush a reason to vote a man into office?

BTW: Has anyone told him he's not Governor anymore?


Retyred IN FLA.

[Ein]

83. I agree.

History tells me concessions to the people are only gained through struggle. And electing a Centrist in the model of Clinton seems to be the wrong move, overall.

[Julien Sorel]

86. Wow

B) IMHO, Dean is running an *awesome* campaign and knows how to play political hardball. I think he's the most skilled politician the Democratic Party has seen seen FDR.

Yeah. Clinton, LBJ, Tip O'Neil, Harry Truman, and .... Howard Dean! Let's get his spot up on the Democratic version of Mount Rushmore.

The guy has done absolutely nothing except run a small, racially homogenous state, and tell people what they want to hear, and now he's the most skilled politician the Dems have had since FDR. Now there's a dispassionate, rational analysis. He might turn out to be in that class, but he might just as easily crash and burn.

It's over-the-top statements like these that make me suspicious about Dean; too many of his supporters have swallowed the bait and aren't thinking rationally any longer.

[JohnKleeb]

87. Billy we dont share candiates

but I share what you mean. Most skilled politican since FDR and no I am not gonna say its Kucinich but imo its this guy and hint he was never alive in my life time

Bobby K of course, the ripple of hope himself. There were many great democrat politicans between FDR and Dean and besides hes not president yet and even if he was, I think there were skilled poltiicans between FDR and Dean.

[JaneQPublic]

24. This is a twist

Lately we've seen a bunch of threads imploring fellow Du'ers to quit bashing other Democratic candidates.

But here we have a thread complaining because a chunk of the DU membership has rallyed energetically around a single candidate -- one who by the way has the message, money, media attention, and therefore, the momentum.

Who would have guessed we'd have a Democrat taking a stand against Democratic unity!

[flyingfish]

25. Dean has no leg to stand on when it comes to Democratic unity

Talking about twists.

He has been blasted too many of the candidates and other Dems for anyone to defend him on this issue.

[Cha]

29. You're wrong!

Dean is bringing all kinds of People together! :kick:

[WillyT]

30. Can You Give Examples, Or Is This The 'Bush-Lite' Thing Again ???

:shrug:

[Cha]

27. I know, huh? We have to defend on a Democratic Board

why we are supporting our Democratic candidate!

[Ein]

37. small d

I think all politicians should be looked at extremely critically. Cause the average person takes shot from all sides.

edit "As President, I will lead the war on terror...". War is not going to end terror, it will perpetuate it.

[Upfront]

28. Dean Has Balls

and he has called Bush on his lies early and often. Deaan stood out in left field all along on the war, guess what, left field is fast getting full. I think Dean has the vision to be president and he is proving it every day. Wake up people. Sometimes I wonder if some of the people who post hear want four more years of Bush. Dean is by far the best canidate the democrats have had sense Bobby Kennedy. Sorry, I know the big dog was good, but he just did not light me up like Dean. He was a great president and Dean will be to! Vote for who you want, support who you want, but quit eating our own!

[retyred]

50. And his support

of some sections of the patriot act is OK? What else of the right is OK to support as long as he's against this war?


Retyred IN FLA.

[Kolesar]

34. I thought it was when Carlos endorsed him half a year ago

It was mostly for his health insurance plan.

[oasis]

35. Speaking of walking on water, the shipload of Haitian refugees

that mysteriously ended up on the Florida coast a week before the election, was of no help to McBride.

[killbotfactory]

39. After he healed my leprosy

I think he has the best chance to beat Bush, I agree with him on many issues from guns to healthcare, and so I back him.

[ScreamingMeemie]

40. When he started voicing the things that couldn't be heard even if I stood

on my tippiest toes and screamed them. People like Dean. That's their right. I normally don't respond to flame bait posts, but give it a rest already.

[JohnKleeb]

42. I dunno

but it has made me feel really alone but I am not alone because I am not the lone Kucinich supporter :) thank god. I am sorry but I feel real alone about it. I dont hate Dean I certainly dont love him like some do though, I am however confused on why Kucinich is seldom mentioned, yes I know he hasnt raised much support or money but the reason I think Dean gets press is of his criticism of the Bush policies yet Dennis does that too. I dunno I am just real confused. Ive gotten better about it because I know that win or lose I was in the good fight overall, and that Dennis will always have a special place in my mind and heart. Sorry for the rant but I feel alone sometimes, that said I dont hate Dean but I dont love him.

[HFishbine]

44. It's not just on DU

it's in New Hampshire and Iowa too (in case you hadn't noticed.) But you know, there's still plenty of time. Just keep promoting your candidate... Uh, who was that again?

[retyred]

45. Clinton

*


Retyred IN FLA.

[JohnKleeb]

47. well she isnt my candiate

but I do feel alone or at least the minority on Dean sometimes, I dont hate nor do I love him and I dont see him as the best hope either. Admittingly I get frustrated; I do think win or lose Kucinich is still a stand up guy, and I will always remember him for inspring me, I am 16 years old.

[retyred]

51. Wrong Clinton

but should she run.....?


Retyred IN FLA.

[JohnKleeb]

53. oh Bill

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

54. So just when did Dean=McBride here at DU?

:eyes:

I'm undecided for 2004 but don't think that's an exactly fair comparison. Dean and McBride are very different.

[JohnKleeb]

55. dunno

I forgot all about McBride he seemed like a cool guy.

[dpbrown]

61. Thanks for asking these questions

The candidate who will best take back America from the BFEE will be a populist with a clear plan to turn back the clock on the ruination the BFEE brought to our nation and the world.

The words of Truman (paraphrased) ring in my head lately, about giving the people a choice between a Republican and a Democrat like a Republican, the people will pick the Republican every time.

[JohnKleeb]

63. thats basically what Harry said

and lord only knows he was right. A populist yes that is true. Explains why we support same guy huh Dan.

[stickdog]

62. I hate all these ignorant posts.

Why the hell do you think Dean became so popular?

Hint:

The media is reluctantly REACTING to his popularity while branding him as TOO LEFT to be a serious candidate.

[madfloridian]

70. When I saw this post, I decided I supported Dean even more.

I don't have to tell you why I do. You support who you want, and we won't question you.

This is childish, and the more you try to make a post sound intelligent while making fun of others......the stupider it sounds.

I also support Graham, BTW.

We worked closely with the McBride campaign. We were snookered. Our Dean group is very different than those with McBride. They are intelligent, educated, and enthusiastic.

You just put us down. You are condescending. I resent that.

[retyred]

79. You read too much

into my post, I never meant to put anyone down for supporting Dean and I appologize if I gave that impression.

My point was that while supportes of Dean may feel he's better than bush, he is still a Moderate and not a liberal and while being better than bush was not going to push a progressive agenda if elected.

Being better than bush alone is not reason enough for me to get behind him.

I'm not here to push any candidate since I see nothing yet worth the effort, I did find it odd that a Moderate has gained so much support on what used to be a progressive forum and was curious as to how and why.

Frankly, I don't care who you vote for as long as you're comfortable with the reasons why.

My observations of Dean drew a paralell to McBride in Florida only in the fact that as McBride was in Florida so is Dean now, the great hope for the end of the bush reign. Like many others I was fooled by McBride by voting for him twice while believing he was real.

I personally think that while Dean appears to be better than bush, there will be little difference except for the rapid rate of decline we've seen for the past three years, I could be wrong but than again Deans not my choice.



Retyred IN FLA.

[retyred]

71. TO ALL

Just to let you all know that I am not against Dean just because you are for him. The man is not a liberal, as many have stated, he's a Moderate and so I feel he's not the best thing going for the progressive movement of the Democratic Party.

True he has come out against the war but in a statement from his own website http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5606 he states:

If we go to war, I certainly hope the Administration's assumptions are realized, and the conflict is swift, successful and clean.

I certainly hope our armed forces will be welcomed like heroes and liberators in the streets of Baghdad.

I certainly hope Iraq emerges from the war stable, united and democratic.

I certainly hope terrorists around the world conclude it is a mistake to defy America and cease, thereafter, to be terrorists.

******************

To me it sounds that while being against the war, he also acccepted bush's plan to go as long as it turns out well.

And I guess being a Moderate is why:

As governor of Vermont, Dean targeted for elimination the public-financing provision of the state's campaign finance law—but in February 2002, Dean said his big donors are given special access.

Dean thinks that some welfare recipients "don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working" and scaled back Vermont's welfare program, reducing cash benefits and imposing strict time limits on single mothers receiving welfare assistance.

Dean advocated sending nuclear waste from his state to the poor, mostly Hispanic town of Sierra Blanca, Texas.

Just last year, Dean proposed deep cuts in Medicaid, which were blocked in his own legislature. Now he calls Representative Dick Gephardt's healthcare proposal, which would roll back the Bush tax cuts in order to provide a tax credit for employers mandated to deliver health coverage to workers, "a pie-in-the-sky radical revamping of our healthcare system."

Dean has said that a constitutional amendment to balance the budget "wouldn't be a bad thing" and that the way to balance the federal budget is "for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70 and cut defense, Medicare and veterans' pensions."

In the name of fiscal conservatism, Dean's final-year Vermont budget also cut portions of the state's public education funding.

Dean supports the death penalty and as governor was embraced by the NRA.

Although he opposed the war on Iraq, his policy on the Middle East is closer, he says, to AIPAC--the American Israel Public Affairs Committee--than to progressives calling for Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories.

*****************

To me this is not what I think of when I think of a progressive President, this is a SSDD President....Same Shit Different Day!


Retyred IN FLA.

[frustrated_lefty]

72. As a person not too keen on Dean,

I still support him. At the moment, my take on the situation is that Dean has the best chance in the long haul to get shrub out of office.

Dean flipflops a lot, in my view. It bugs me, and at the same time I respect it for apparent honesty regarding his uncertainty. These are uncertain times.

My wife says we should let shrub take it in 2004 and REALLY screw up so democrats have a good, long run in the white house afterwards.

My thoughts are as follow:

1)shrub has created a 500 billion dollar deficit, in under 3 years
2)shrub has thrown away 2-3 million American jobs, in under 3 years
3)the shrubocracy is steadily whittling away at civil rights, and is flubbing N.Korea just like it flubbed Afghanistan and Iraq.

I disagree with my wife. If we wait til 2008 to kick chimpie out, we'll have screwed the future of our kids and their children. Dean, I think, has the best shot at throwing monkeyboy out. I don't care if another republican takes the office in 2008, this country can NOT take another 4 years of BushCo.

Anyway, thems my thoughts

[madfloridian]

74. Golly, this guy is one bad dude.

I guess if he is that bad, it will all come out in the press soon. He will be finished, done.

He most certainly does not deserve to be president if he did all that. Oh my goodness, no.

I am so very glad all the others are really good guys, so we don't have to worry. We will be in good hands with the good guys.

Bye!

[JaneQPublic]

78. Your candidate is Clinton, yet Dean is too Moderate for you?

Bill Clinton was never "Progressive"; While he may have seemed liberal in contrast to 12 years of Reagan and Poppy Bush, he was the very poster child of the DLC.

Remember The Third Way, Triangulation, NAFTA, Defense of Marriage Act, the End of Welfare as We Know It...

The fact is Dr. Dean never labeled himself a liberal; the GOP/News Media did. When asked, he calls himself a Centrist.

Something's really fishy about your whole arguement RE: Howard Dean not being "Progressive" enough.

(edited for the following)

P.S.: Bill Clinton isn't a candidate and he isn't eligible to run.

[Andromeda]

75. Many of us at DU are ...

far apart on some issues, as you would expect free-thinking individuals to be, but a whole lot of us like Dean because he is the best thing since Bobby Kennedy to grace the political landscape. Dean is the best candidate IMHO and I believe he has the best chance to beat Bush in 2004.

Whomever gets the nomination will get my vote, however, because I don't think this country could handle another four years of Bush. He's done more damage in 2-3 years than any president in history.

Oh, and by the way---a MODERATE is not the same thing as a conservative.

Dean has fire and chutzpah and gets people all charged up with enthusiam about the 2004 election. People who listen to Dean hear HOPE for the future. He expresses their concerns and their anger about what this administration has done to this country. He's not afraid to speak up which is more than I can say about some of the other Democrats who have capitulated ad nauseum to this "popular" president.

[frustrated_lefty]

76. and

he publicly corrects himself when he thinks he's made a mistake.

The man carries himself with integrity.

[maggrwaggr]

77. Gee, wonder how Jeb Bush could win an election in FLORIDA

I mean, that state is known for its fair and honestly-counted elections,and Jeb Bush is such an honest man, I'm sure he would want whoever actually GOT the most votes to take the job

yadda yadda yadda

[WilliamPitt]

80. About the same time he started raising the dead

That water ---> wine trick was pretty phattt, too.

:)

*ducking, fleeing*

[stickdog]

81. The way he re-animated the corpse that was the Democratic

opposition to Bush was pretty slick as well.

[Ein]

84. if it ain't liberal

it is still a corpse, to me.

edit: WWJD...

What Would Jefferson Do?

[stickdog]

88. A straight talking near left moderate is what passes for

"too liberal" in our media today.

What does that tell you?

It tells me that we need a straight talking near left moderate who isn;t afraid to change the parameters of debate in this country and kick some Bush ass.

If you wish to chase pipe dreams intead, I understand. But we'll have to catch up after the nomination.

[Ein]

89. tells me something is very wrong with our system

that probably needs direct action to solve.

I don't think the electoral system is going to do much, all change has come through struggle. And b/t the people and the bourgeouis, the bourgeouisie is winning.

I know many people on DU beg to differ, but I saw enough of the centrist idea through Carter and Clinton, and I don't see anything of really positive change coming from it.

edit: And as is everyone, I am confident in my ideas. And I believe that the next 4-12 years will prove me right, as I'm sure you are.

Time will tell.

[JohnKleeb]

91. you know me ein and seen what I think

Change will come eventually but will this change :( come when I have ceased to live. Again I think the moment is now, and I think well it will be a hard road to victory for Kucinich, there is no doubt in my mind that it is the right one.

[unfrigginreal]

90. Damn right!

The interesting thing is that the masses are ignoring the mainstream media. It sure looks like Dean is going to clean some clocks!

[REP]

82. Disagree With Comparison with McBride

I read the whole thread, so I know your intention was not to say bad things about Dean supporters, so no flames here. I don't think the comparison is apt; Dean really seems pissed off, and not a DLC bot acting as though he's pissed off.

I fell for Dean when I first heard about him last year. I think his approach to healthcare is one that can be achieved - not perfect, mind, but better than what we have now and more likely to be accomplished than some other plans. I like his unapologetic pro-choice stance. But most of all I like it that he seems to be as mad as I am about what is being done to our country. I say all this not to change your mind but just to give one anecdote about what is attractive about Dean to one person. If you're really curious, I suggest taking a look a Katha Pollitt's latest column ("Selling Dean Short") in The Nation as I think she does a wonderful job of explaining his appeal.

Is Dean perfect? Nope. Is he pretty damn good? Yes, indeed! Am I planning to vote for whoever has the D next to his name? Damn straight!

[CWebster]

94. Heaven forbid any Democrats actually register

any enthusiam for any Democratic candidates! Why Why Why what will the Republicans think! What will the country think?

While you were taking time out, Dean was busy--nonstop to get our attention and rally the troops paying attention.

And no, Dean supporters generally are circumspect about Dean on the issues but note the overwhelming success of the campaign. Someting resonates and works. Isn't that a good thing?