How long would it take before you trusted a recovering alcoholic or addict

[dsc]

in a position of power? Bravo's episode of the West Wing is the one where Leo's past becomes public. He is a recovering alcoholic addict, sober 6 years. Seeing that episode made me wonder. How long would someone have to be sober before you would put them in a position of power?

[Khephra]

1. As someone who's been there

I'd say a year is a good amount of time to see if a person is truly in recovery or not.

But, as someone who has had troubles, I also believe that if one really knows one's self (and that can come after a year of clarity) then there are some people who should also recognize that such postions are too much stress than they can take.

For example: while I'm totally trustworthy now after being sober almost 3 years, I'd still never run for office. It's too much stress.

Now would I work as staff? Yeah, that's less stress, so I think I could handle that.

Each person has their own limits.

[dsc]

I've been there too

I really don't know on this. It is an interesting question.

[Sperk]

12. congrats khephra! I know how hard it is to quit addictions

I'm still trying to quit smoking.

[Khephra]

16. Me too

I started up again the day Wellstone died and I flew into DC for the War protest.

[dsc]

17. a vice I never did pick up

but it must be wicked hard to quit given the amount of smoking at AA meetings.

[Booberdawg]

2. Depends - do they walk the walk?

or just talk the talk?

I watch the feet when I decide whether I trust someone.

[Eloriel]

3. It's less how much t ime as how much depth

Tho I'd say along with Kef that minimum would be one year.

Some folks never get it. Never go thru any 12 Steps, and basically never do go into "recovery." Some take a very long time to get it. Some stay dry drunks forever -- e.g., Bush, tho he's probably abusing again from some of the signals we've seen.

Eloriel

[bearfartinthewoods]

34. what signals? n/t

[Khephra]

4. It should also be remembered

that very, very few people ever make it without falling off the wagon at some point. It's the real measure of your level of recovery of how long it takes to get back up after being off it so long. That's the real killer.

[dsc]

6. I haven't slipped

yet

[Khephra]

8. Well, I'm speaking more to the episode in question

and I was also thinking of another tv show -- The John Laroquette Show. Also B5.

In those shows you see someone goes years without drinking, and then they have a breakdown. In both shows it stressed that everyone is human and showed their reasons for their breakdowns.

But then all the characters got back on their feet and lived their life as it was the next day of their sobriety.

It's the stress that we're all human and we should take one step at a time that I liked.

On the flip side, I've seen people with 20 plus years break down and drink and drug again...and then what happens? His support group abandons him as a quitter at the time they need the most help.

That's why I always loved the WW that's mentioned in the first post.

[hang a left]

25. well, god willing, i'll be 3 in Feb.

But was 7 once. Depends always on their faith in God. Recovery is contingent upon your spiritual condition according to big blue.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Depends on whether they were functional before or not

It also depends on the level of trust they violated prior to the incident.

Depends on their degree of addiction (how far gone were they) and their degree of remorse and amends as well as their degree of lifestyle modifications.

Dammit DSC...I can't answer this. :D

[dsc]

7. hard isn't it

and lets face it from afar we can't really know what the answers to those are. I know a lady in the program who had 14 years, then went out for some years, then came back in and has close to 14 years again. It is so baffling.

[Khephra]

11. Leo had a real good reason in that episode

Being blackmailed over warcrimes isn't something easy for anyone to stand upright against.

[Khephra]

13. And I have to admit there's two events that will probably lead me to

fall off the wagon, hopefully only for a one time situation.


And that's if Bush gets re-elected in 2004 and the death of my mother.

[SharonAnn]

19. kephra - neither of them is worth drinking over. For us, it kills.

Please, I'm not making light of these, they're both very serious, but drinking wouldn't solve them.

We just can't do it! We learn to do other things.

And, we love each other, especially in times of stress. Remember us. We'll be there!

[dsc]

22. Yes how true that is

There is no situation in our lives that can't be made worse by a drink. I was on the suicide by installment plan and now I know better. We would be there for anything.

[Khephra]

23. Well....I guess I just don't want to seem superhuman

I know my limits and those two periods will be hard on me, so I'm being honest about it upfront.

[bearfartinthewoods]

37. keph...it ain't worth it

i'll be 23 in january. no way is bush gonna take that away from me.

just remember...when you sober up again, he will still be in the WH and you will have lost so much.

[dsc]

14. different episode

they haven't gotten to that one yet. This is the early one where the press gets hold of his file from treatment.

[Khephra]

15. Ah

Opps...I hope I haven't spoiled it for anyone, but it is in repeats.

[Nashyra]

10. It is recommeded that you make no major changes

for a year, and if you are an alcholic and continue to be in denial like the *, it is impossible to walk the walk. I've been sober almost 8 years and have gone through the death of a child without medicating myself, my family trusts me but it would not be possible without a 12 step program. * is a dry drunk and probably hits the bottle often, remember the pretzel that beat up his face, yeah right.

[Khephra]

18. Not just functional...but what type of a person they are in general

Drink and drugs can strip a person to their more animal self. If at the core of that individual there isn't any...remorse...urge for healing...desire to be more...lots o' stuff...

(pulling out my "Poor Anthony's Codex")

A man who is a drunk remains a man when he's drunk, however pathetic that might be.

But a Beast who is drunk becomes a Beast when he's drunk, however pathetic that might be.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

9. What about Ann RIchards?

Isn't she a recovering alcoholic? Seems to me I read that somewhere.

As someone who's been clean and sober for 12 years, I would trust me. :)

But everyone's recovery is different. Many people don't continue to work the steps, and relapse is common.

But then again someone who is truly sober and working the steps is probably quite trustworthy, because honesty (with yourself and others) is a critical part of staying sober.

[Freddie Stubbs]

31. Howard Dean used to have a problem with booze too

But the most revealing keepsake in this room is a collage of beer coasters, which Dean collected as an exchange student in England at age 17. It’s a memory of another life. Asked about Dean’s student hobbies, Dawson offers an amused reply: “Well, he drank.” Not anymore. “I quit drinking when I got married in 1981,” Dean says later. “I didn’t think I handled liquor well. Actually, I drank beer. I tended to misbehave. I had a hangover the next day.” He won’t elaborate but says he was never arrested for drunk driving, and there is no alcoholism in his family. “What’s funny when you’re 18 isn’t funny when you’re 30, so I just quit.”

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/politics/national/n_8376/

[dsc]

36. There is a difference between

having a problem with drinking and being a full blown alcoholic. From the sounds of it Dean never faced any real consequences for drinking only to ignore them. That is one of the more common defintions of an alcoholic. Also he has been sober for 23 years which is a very, very long time. For me that would end up being the year 2023 if I were to be so lucky.

[unfrigginreal]

20. "in a position of power"

Never...of course that depends on the level of power that you are talking about, but if you're intimating an elected position, I stand by never.

[dsc]

21. On the show Leo

is Chief of Staff.

[unfrigginreal]

24. Not elected

n/t

[Jen72]

29. Yes and in an Episode call Bartlet For America...

Leo gets drunk, one night during the campaign. And he got caught.
The feeling that I get is that the support of his staff and the Bartlets are about helping him to trust him self not to drink.
The knowledge that he is attending AA meetings, means that they can trust him.

It was actually a very insightful episode in Alcoholism and how it can be used to bring someone down.
Also in The West Wing VP Hoynes has a regular AA meeting in the basement, which Leo joins. The point being that AA is a vitual part of recovery and that Hoynes was sober to the point that Bartlet and his staff did not know he was an alcoholic.

[dfong63]

27. i agree...

"in a position of power" Never...of course that depends on the level of power that you are talking about, but if you're intimating an elected position, I stand by never.

i agree in a way. i could never fully trust someone who had been an addict. that does not mean i would never vote for (or love) someone who had been an addict; only that i'd never be able to forget that the person in question was once controlled by a substance, and could become that way again. imho if such a person does come to occupy a position of power or trust, s/he should be monitored constantly. and it should be a prerequisite that the person voluntarily relinquish the right to privacy and the presumption of innocence where substance abuse is concerned. i mean, they have to accept being required to prove they're clean from time to time.

actually, NO ONE should be fully trusted in a position of power. power itself is an addictive substance.

[Khephra]

26. Upon thought

If someone could get elected who was willing to stand out in front of the voters and say "My name is..., and I'm a recovering alcoholic."

I think I'd trust him more than someone like Bush who's only hid from their weaknesses.

[Terwilliger]

28. next day

some people recover...you can usually tell

[ElsewheresDaughter]

30. my mother is/was one and she has destroyed too many brain cells...imho

especially in a position of power....sadly NEVER! to make logical judgements or rational decissions......and i love her she's my mother

[maxanne]

32. I guess it depends on the person

Some people do sincerely work at recovery, and others pay lip service. The lips are usually the ones who go out - and even if they don't, they aren't people you'd want around.

I know recovering drunks I'd trust with my life. I know recovering drunks I run from. Funny - just like non-alcoholics!

I've been sober 14 years, and I am considered trustworthy. I am, today.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

33. maxanne, i guess it does....

[TahitiNut]

35. Many may not understand this, but all trust is trust in one's self.

(And an 'expectation' is better called a 'premeditated resentment.') No elected official should ever be trusted to the point that their official behavior is not consistently monitored and evaluated. IMHO, the reason "In God We Trust" is on our money is because only God can be trusted. (As Reagan said, "Trust but verify.")

When I say "all trust is trust in one's self" I'm pointing to our inclination to become emotionally codependent and blame others for our failure to take personal responsibility. We often engage in behaviors that are dysfunctional due to some 'false belief.' Indeed, such false beliefs seem to me to underlie all behaviors that're not loving and respectful both of ourselves and of others. Fear itself is the most pervasive 'false belief,' driving behaviors that themselves seem to justify more such behavior.

We defend our 'false beliefs' with more tenacity and vigor than any Truth. Truth, after all, needs no defense.

This single, simple topic would require far more discussion than I am able to sustain in this forum. For those who already understand this, no discussion is needed. For those who don't, other learning experiences would be needed. (I only know it because it took me 50 years to finally learn it after fighting the notion my entire life. Others may not be so fortuante.)