Bush blows up Shrine at Najaf....

[TomNickell]

A massive blast outside a shrine at Najaf has killed as many as 100 people.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/29/sprj.irq.main/index.html

Can anyone doubt that George Bush is responsible? This has his fingerprints all over it! Who -else- benefits from chaos and destruction in Iraq? Who -else- would be evil enough to set off a car bomb. Karl Rove must have been planning this one for months.

[ShaneGR]

1. Probably infighting

While we're getting attacked by Sunni's and foreign jihadists the Shi'ites are busy fighting over who gets to run a fundamentalist Iraq once we leave.

[Kbowe]

23. Would Muslims bomb each other during prayers?

I don't think so.....!!! My money is on the CIA and/or Mossad.

[PsychoDad]

24. Thats lik asking "would christians kill on a sunday"?

A christian or muslim who was practicing their faith wouldn't kill at all. Those who only use the covering of faith as a reason for their evil work 24/7

[Character Assassin]

25. Sure, what makes you think they wouldn't?

They are human, after all.

[Kbowe]

37. Not their MO...would have been a suicide bombing...not car bomb

This incident is more like something the CIA and/or Mossad. They would not kill themselves for any cause...but Muslims would and usually do. The US and Israel like to bomb from afar and take little risks. This was a car bomb...not a suicide bombing. Real Muslims would not kill other Muslims during prayers...just would not do it. It just doesn't make sense that this would be in their interest to start a war among themselves when they have a common enemy occupying their country.

[PsychoDad]

52. I would disagree with a couple of points...

Quote:"They would not kill themselves for any cause...but Muslims would and usually do."

I think anyone totally committed to a cause could be willing to die for said cause, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Republican guard, U.S. Army, CIA, Democrat or any other. Having said that, willing to die, and intending to die, are two differnt things. Please remember, suicide is as much prohibited by Islam as by any other religion. The reason for suicide bombing is due not to religion, but due to a conviction of helplessness and desperation. In the case of palistinians who are economicly oppressed and desperate, suicide bombing was/is financed and sponsored by various 3rd parties. Thus the act of becoming a "mayrter" also insured that your family was well taken care of after your death. A somewhat more pragmatic reason than religious conviction, wouldn't you agree?

Quote:"Real Muslims would not kill other Muslims during prayers"

"Real" Muslims wouldn't kill anyone at anytime UNLESS in self defense, or to defend the lives of others.

The perpertrators of these actions may have been "muslim" (in that they belive that there is only one God, and Muhammad is his messenger- This is what being a muslim is, just as a christian is one who belives in the divinity of Jesus), but this does not mean they were practicing what their religion teaches. As far as I can tell, neither Christanity or Islam condones blowing yourself or others up.... Although it seems that both so called "christians" and "muslims" do so on a horrifingly consistant basis.

Just as Jesus taught peace and tolerance, so does Islam.

[ShaneGR]

53. Case in point????

If you're a muslim organization hoping to take control of Iraq what is the easiest way to find and eliminate a rival organization?

[birdman]

2. He sure as hell hasn't denied it.

I think they're trying to get the Hillary
for President talk off the front pages.

That Rove, he'll stop at nothing.

[G_j]

3. though I think

the 'boys' are capable of anything, your headline is bit much.

How about "did bush blow up....?"

[stickdog]

4. Tom, you ought to wait for more information before

jumping to such rash conclusions.

Of course, you are probably onto something here given past history ...

[Devils Advocate NZ]

12. Don't buy this...

TomNickell is an anti-Conspiracy Theory campainer who loves to reply to threads suggesting "Conspiracy Theories" and ridicule those who consider them possible.

Don't fall for it, he will only turn around and try to make you look like a fool.

[zoidberg]

18. He seems to have caught quite a few fish with this bait though

It was quite well done actually. I couldn't tell that he was just trying to fool people.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

19. I could tell quite easily, even if I hadn't know him...

The way he emphasises "-else-", and the patently absurd suggestion that no-one "-else-" could be evil enough to set off a car bomb.

He thinks he's clever, but he's not.

[Ouabache]

50. True, but his bait has already brought out

real information about the MO of various groups that are in direct contradiction to the media party line conclusions we already see in the press and on tv.

[JNelson6563]

5. Crusading for Dummies

1. Attack "holy" sites of the infidels. Demoralizing.

Julie

[moondust]

6. Would a civil war give Bushco

an excuse to pull out and save some face among the sheeple?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

7. oh yeah...that makes it okay...JAYS'US

what's a few more deaths (20 and 100 injured)so bush can "save face"?

[stickdog]

8. Or would it help with the UN negotiations by playing up the Iraq's

dire straits to the rest of the Security Council's heart strings?

Could be.

What do you think, Tom?

What led you to believe this was Bush's doing?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

10. He doesn't...

TomNickell is an anti-Conspiracy Theory campaigner. This is just a pathetic attempt to make "Conspiracy Theorists" look bad, by getting them to jump on his bandwagon, just so as he can shoot them down gleefully.

That is why he hasn't responded to any of these replies yet.

[RummyTheDummy]

29. No...they don't want that

It would totally be a tail between the legs thing. They'll keep feeding meat into the grinder.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

9. Good try... But I'm not biting.

It's pathetic really, truly pathetic.

[Zero Gravitas]

11. Why

Would the US blow up a family memeber of the US's Governing Council?

This guy was a collaborator not an (active) opponant of the US Occupation. It is the "moderate" religous leaders that are preventing the Shias from rising up against the US. It is the militants who are in a struggle with the moderates to change this policy.

[birdman]

13. Sarcasm. Hello !

TN is poking fun at the conspiratorial.

[Zero Gravitas]

20. Ahh

I see. There are soo many loony conspiracy theories on DU its hard to know when the poster is serious. Just becasue the theory makes NO SENSE whatsoever doesn't mean that the poster isn't serious!

[bearfartinthewoods]

14. you might want to hold off on this just in case

it turns out to be inter-shite rivalry about tourist dollars...

[Devils Advocate NZ]

16. Don't take the bait...

TomNickell is just trying to make "Conspiracy Theorists" look like fools, even though it isn't succeeding. In fact it's backfiring.

[TomNickell]

32. Don't need my help.

DA,
Anybody who takes this kind of 'argument' seriously doesn't need -my- help to look like a fool.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

42. So why do it then?

In fact do you ever post on ANY subject apart from "Conspiracy Theory" threads?

[Junkdrawer]

15. A preemptive strike?

:evilgrin:

Well, now that you mention it Tom, the biggest headache for the US control of Iraq would be if the Shiites organized against US occupation. This should stir them up against the Sunnis (read "diehard Saddam supporters") now.

[Jack The Tab]

17. The Bushies would sell their souls for some quiet in Iraq...

They certainly cannot use more chaos. There is no way this benefits them. sheesh

[Blue_Chill]

21. How does this benefit Bush?

Please explain.

[Junkdrawer]

22. A better question may be "How does this beneift Chalabi.."

Chalabi blamed U.S. forces for not keeping the region secure and said the bombing was the work of Saddam Hussein loyalists who were trying to create sectarian discord in the country.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/WorldNewsTonight/mosqueblast030829.html

Chalabi is the current darling of the far right in the US. One of his main problems is that he is not trusted by the Shiite majority...

[NNN0LHI]

26. The guy who was killed was Bush's best friend in Iraq

His brother was on the hand picked Iraqi governing council along with Chalabi. He was on the US payroll along with his brother. They were both collaborating with the invaders. This is really bad news for Bush and his minions.

Don

[TomNickell]

28. Ah! More Proof!

Obviously, Bush chose to kill this guy in order to deflect suspicion. But, WE are too smart for him!

[tkmorris]

43. Wow

I never saw anyone make a thread just so they had an opportunity to call everyone who responded to it an idiot. It must be a slow night in the Nickell household eh?

Edited to comply with holy writ.

[Junkdrawer]

30. Huh??

Shiite presses for Iraqi theocracy

Najaf, Iraq — Some 15,000 Iraqis cheered as a Shiite Muslim cleric who led the largest anti-Saddam Hussein movement visited one of the Shiites' holiest shrines Monday after returning from more than two decades in exile.

At the Shine of Imam Ali, Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim vowed to help rebuild Iraq and rejected U.S. domination over the country.

"We will never accept humiliation," Ayatollah al-Hakim told the crowd. "All tribal, ethnic and religious groups should unite under the banner of Islam to preserve independence, avoid differences, and build a free Iraq."

…

Ayatollah Al-Hakim's group is the closest Iraqi Shiite political grouping to Iran, which has raised concerns in the Bush administration. Washington opposes any Iranian-style theocracy taking control in Iraq.

More…

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030512.whshii512/BNStory/International

With friends like that...

[ElementaryPenguin]

27. Nice preemptive strike, Tom!! Good to hear you've seen the light!!

The DU Grassy Knoll Conspiracy Theorist Club welcomes you with open arms!! I would guess you were wrong on one count though. Karl Rove undoubtedly threw this together overnight - to offset the attention being given Poodle Blair with WarGate in the U.K. - and his California Coup Savior Ah-nulled - embroiled in his own CockGate!!

[Must_B_Free]

31. BLAIR DONE IT

PROOF:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030829/168/541hq.html

[TomNickell]

33. Hee, Hee, Hee, Heee, Heeeeee

Caught a bunch of 'em.

If my name weren't known around here as an 'anti-conspiracy theory crusader' (kind of like that title), this thread would be up to 150 posts by now.

Such a pile of speculation built upon nothing whatever!

I've decided to launch a new, original, conspiracy theory of my very own. Any cool ideas would be welcome.

Just post them here.

[stickdog]

34. All you did here was show how ridiculous our media, government and public

are every time they immediately pin the blame for every "senseless and destructive" event on this or that brown terra'ist or "dead-ender" without a second's hesitation to consider if there just might be any more (or even less) likely alternatives.

You are like the hypocritically bombastic atheist who doesn't realize that his own absolutely certain belief that there is no God is based just as surely on personal faith as the zealots he lives to debunk.

The fact of the matter is that folks like you are weak minded conspiracy mythologists, immediately pinning all blame for every truly heinous act of violence on some unknown and typically imaginary villainous "other" in an irrational and historically disproven rite of chauvinistic validation.

Once you get past the undeniable historical reality that, yes, vile atrocities sometimes can and do transpire at the bidding of our fearsome leaders, you sadly can never go back to the comfortable blind certainty of the blissful flag brandishing Moonie.

Of course, we aren't typically granted nearly enough knowledge to make any truly educated decisions about the most reasonable culprits of these heinous acts because the vast majority of information that might lead us to apprehend the expansive context of our own long and storied history of destabilizing violence has been largely withheld from us by our authoritarian media, historical analysts and sanctioned mythmakers.

However, DU is a place where such questions can be asked and evaluated without the deafening "how could you even think such a thing?!?" jingo bells. And, of course, sometimes partisans become a little overzealous in their application of , especially when they have already been fed three square meals of lies and treachery over a seemingly interminable reign of chaotic evil. So when there are good reasons for fingering the "terra-ists" over BushCo for a given crime -- why not just take the time to list them out rationally and dispassionately?

[TomNickell]

44. Wrong!

This CT, reflex, blame-Bush-for-the-weather, 'we don't need no stinkin' evidence' stuff is -not- bold, adventurous, open-minded, exploratory.

It is mindless, empty, intellecutally lazy, vain, juvenile.

-Exactly- comparable to the RW Limbaugh crowd that blamed Clinton, or the Secret Government or Black Helicopters for all things. Exactly the same.

I post a wildly improbable accusation, backed by absolutely NO evidence and I get 40-odd posts agreeing with it?

If I do a post claiming Bush beats himself on the head with a hammer, will I also get 40 posts agreeing with me? This makes as much sense as the claim Bush organized a major attack that moved Iraq closer to complete ungovernable chaos.

Blame Bush for anything you can pin on him. Blame him even if you can only make a half-plausible case. But, nonsensical accusations just make the accuser (and everybody standing nearby) look stupid. This doesn't help the cause.

It -does- seem to make some folks feel important.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

46. What a lie!

I post a wildly improbable accusation, backed by absolutely NO evidence and I get 40-odd posts agreeing with it?

40 posts? Bullshit! There are at most 10 posts on this thread that can be seen as in anyway agreeing with what you claimed, and of those, I would bet half of them are more along the lines of "well, it is possible" rather than "yes, that is exactly what happened".

But why am I not surprised that you have to lie to make your point?

[stickdog]

48. How many people were "agreeing" with you and how many

were savoring the irony of showing you a more reasoned and balanced way to respond to the same overexuberantly "Bush-is-the-root-of-all-evil" posters you live to hammer? Of course, the infinitesmal chances of encouraging you to finally break-on-through past your own all too mindlessly predicable world view are equally ironic.

No, I don't think Bush or Rove or anyone particularly concerned about Bush's political future is responsible for yesterday's bombing. This is because the rich sap is currently being exposed for the stunningly incompetent puppet he is, and more bad news right now sure ain't gonna help him politically in any way that I can fathom.

But that doesn't mean that you have a firm grasp on reality here.

Please attempt to follow your own logic flipped over to expose the other side of the coin:

This CT, reflex, blame angry Islamists, 'we don't need no stinkin' evidence' stuff is -not- bold, adventurous, open-minded or exploratory.

It is mindless, empty, intellecutally lazy, vain, juvenile.

Very comparable to the Hitler crowd that blamed the Jews, or the Japanese Internment Camps or McCarthyism. Extremely comparable.

A guy like Ashcroft or a single unnamed US military source can make a wildly improbable accusation -- like some gang kid "soon would have" made and detonated a dirty bomb, Hussein is in cahoots with Osama, terra'ists just want to kill us because of our freedom, or various Iraqis are "thought to be" responsible for the UN bombing -- to a few reporters, backed by absolutely NO evidence and they get 250-odd million Americans agreeing with it?


All I'm trying to show you is that you can't rationally use one standard of evidence (there's no evidence at all!) to exonerate BushCo's army of assets while having no trouble whatsoever believing that random Muslims are simply prone to commit acts of despicable civilian violence -- many that are just as antithetical to their own interests -- without requiring a shred of evidence for your unflinching credulity!

Islamic terrorists are rank amateurs compared the CIA, NSA, US military intelligence and Special Ops when it comes to executing and/or fomenting profound acts of destabilizing violence. Anybody who ignores the United States' long and storied history of using and/or encouraging the use of EXACTLY these sorts "dirty tricks" to bring down weaker regimes we oppose and/or solidify the dictatorships of our favored strongmen is simply a historical ignoramous intent on a few more rounds of tediously indefensible repetition.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

45. You know how some people think that there...

are people sent to try and debunk "Conspiracy Theories" by the conspirators, well if there ever was one, TomNickell would be the perfect example of what they would be like. Now, I am not saying he is a plant, but he sure doesn't help disprove it with his pathetic attempts to debunk "Conspiracy Theories" by ridiculing those who see merit in such "Theories".

I have never seen him post on any subject except "Conspiracy Theories". In fact he has been here an awfully long time yet still has only 400 posts. I can't search because I a have not donated, but I would be willing to bet you would never find more than a dozen posts of his that do not have anything to do with debunking "Conspiracy Theories".

I've locked horns with him many times in the past, and he has never won an argument on the basis of facts or evidence. In fact he has never even put forward a reasonable argument.

Take this thread for example. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that US covert operatives might car bomb someone who is seen as a threat, or even just to cause chaos, but by defining the argument in ridiculous terms, he hopes to ridicule those who present an actual reasoned argument.

But it is even worse - he is not just attacking any theory that this bomb may have US connections, but the idea that ANY "Conspiracy Theory" may validly point to US actions. In other words, he create a ridiculous "theory" then uses that as evidence that ALL "Theories" are ridiculous.

Yet he claims that HE is the reasonable one. Bollocks.

[Aidoneus]

36. a pathetic troll

good for you that you get off on this stuff, tho'.

[TomNickell]

55. A Troll, trolling. And caught quit a few suckers. /nt

nt.

[moondust]

38. Perhaps all you lack is

an imagination. Like all those Murcans who never dreamed anybody would fly airplanes into tall buildings.

[Junkdrawer]

35. Lebanon - 1985

President Reagan and the CIA called off covert operations when Lebanese intelligence operatives -- some allegedly trained by the U.S. -- set off a car bomb on March 8, 1985, in an attempted murder of Sheik Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, the Shiite Muslim cleric who some believed to be the spiritual leader of Hezbollah. Over 80 people were killed in the attack near a Beirut mosque. Fadlallah survived.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/etc/cron.html

[teryang]

40. Saw the Bremer interview there too

What a doofus party hack. "They hate us for who we are not what we do." Reagan determined that he wasn't going to bargain with terrorists. What was Iran Contra? We shouldn't have pulled out of Lebanon after the marine barracks bombing. Erh, we shouldn't have gone into Lebanon. Just like we shouldn't have gone into Iraq.

[Aidoneus]

41. disagree..

pulling out of Lebanon was the one good thing Reagan ever did.. the message that they weren't wanted was delivered loud and clear, and they did the right thing in getting out. Of course, invading Grenada as a distraction was stupid.

Though they never should've been there in the first place, the US shouldn't have been directly supporting Israel's brutal invasion and massive campaign of terror against Lebanon in the first place, shouldn't have carried out the "terrorist" bombing attempt on Fadlallah in the first place 2yrs later, etc etc etc..

[John_H]

39. Had to be a freepr that did this

only a freeper would be stupid enough to kill one of the only clerics favorable to the policies they all love.

[knight_of_the_star]

47. Does it really matter who did it?

People over there will automatically assume it was us, and because the Shi'ites are the majority of the population in Iraq and considering the location of the bombing, thee aftershocks of this could be disastrous.

[JackieO]

49. Does it pay well, Tom?

Seriously.

[birdman]

51. Oh please

Anybody who points out the foolishness of the conspiratorial
idiocy that gets posted so frequently on this board has
to be getting paid by Karl Rove to throw those noble
seekers of the truth off the track.

I'm sure Rove has better things things to do with his money
than to pay for adversarial opinions on message boards.

Karl pays me in strawberries to disrupt DU.

[TomNickell]

54. Yeah, I'm making a mint...

Karl Rove has a whole school training us to come on Librul message boards and argue with people who post preposterous nonsense that makes -all- liberals look like fools.

This is an especially important project for Karl, since he wants valid and reasonable criticism of Bush to be heard clearly by the public and not be discredited by lots of silly conspiracy theories.

It's good work. I can get you an interview. Send a sample of your writing.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

56. Seeing as how you are a liberal...

Can you link me to any non-"Conspiracy Theory" posts you've made? I would really like to see your opinion on other important subjects.

Can you?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

58. Why am I not surprised?

It seems that when any hard questions come your way, you duck and run.

Most telling.

[stickdog]

57. Hello?

Islamic terrorists are rank amateurs compared the CIA, NSA, US military intelligence and Special Ops when it comes to executing and/or fomenting profound acts of destabilizing violence.

Therfore, you can't rationally use one standard of evidence (there's no evidence at all!) to exonerate BushCo's army of assets while having no trouble whatsoever believing that random Muslims are simply prone to commit acts of despicable civilian violence -- many that are just as antithetical to their own interests -- without requiring a shred of evidence to buttress your unflinching credulity!

Anybody who ignores the United States' long and storied history of using and/or encouraging the use of EXACTLY these sorts "dirty tricks" to bring down weaker regimes we oppose and/or solidify the dictatorships of our favored strongmen is simply a historical ignoramous intent on a few more rounds of tediously indefensible repetition.

[bearfartinthewoods]

59. oh brother......

yep....that's a standard retort.

anyone who points to idiocy is labeled a rove employee.

we are doomed.....

[nolabels]

60. For Tom ;-)

http://www.antiwar.com/
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/31/international/worldspecial/31FUNE.html?ex=1063271271&ei=1&en=4605f1359d286fb8

Shiites Mourn Death of Cleric in Iraq Bombing

All that was readily identifiable were parts of the black turban that marked the ayatollah as a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad, and a couple of prayer books, the nephew, Amar Abdel Aziz al-Hakim, said in an interview.

"The occupation forces bear full responsibility for this due to their misguided methods in treating the security situation," said the cleric, sitting just off the slain ayatollah's prayer room, which was draped with yards of black cloth.

Hospital officials had at first put the death toll as high as 95, but they adjusted it downward today.

The police investigating the attack, the worst since the government of Saddam Hussein fell, said the explosives used in the booby-trapped car resembled those used in the fatal bombing of the United Nations headquarters in Baghdad on Aug. 19. They included old mortar shells and other military munitions bundled together, said Gen. Hussein Yassin, the Najaf police chief, and were ignited by remote control.

Four suspects were detained, the police said, but they rejected reports quoting anonymous police sources as saying that the suspects had been carrying identification cards from the former intelligence services or were foreigners. Officials increasingly focused on the theory that the car bomb was the work of members of the toppled government.
(snip)