If Clark Enters the Race (Which He Will), It's Down to A 2-Man Race.

[David Zephyr]

Clark will blow Kerry out of the running within two weeks of announcing.

Gephardt will be the only of the remaining candidates left to muddle through a few primaries and will possibly carry some delegates to the convention.

The Democratic National Ticket will be either:

Dean / Clark

Clark / Dean

Clark / Gephardt

Dean / Gephardt

Gephardt would bring the electoral votes from Missouri. Clark will deliver Arkansas. Both are states the Democrats did not carry in the 2000 election.

This is the shape of the 2004 Team. Get behind it.

[prolesunited]

1. Ok, as long as you say so

:eyes:

[hang a left]

2. you'll be flamin by 2:15

[David Zephyr]

58. Flamin' Away.

We have a very good field of candidates and the even the debate between them is turning out to echo what is going on within a lot of American heads.

Clark will bring even more people into fold. It's a good thing.

I do believe he will suck the oxygen out of Kerry's campaign, if there's much oxygen left.

In any event, it's up to John Kerry and his campaign managers to do something to get off the dime. Time doesn't wait for any man.

[HFishbine]

3. $$$ Where your mouth is?

Sounds great! How about a wager? I'll give you ten to five on each of these:

"Clark will blow Kerry out of the running within two weeks of announcing."

"Gephardt will be the only of the remaining candidates left to muddle through a few primaries and will possibly carry some delegates to the convention." ("A few primaries defined as three.")

[CMT]

4. I think Kerry will continue to be a viable candidate

despite Clark's entry--and I do agree he will run.

[KoKo]

87. I think Kerry's in until the end......and Dean/Clark...Clark/Dean is a No

Go! Clark/Dean and vice versa.....ego's and not a fit imho. Kerry will stay......too perfect....although his personality leaves much to be desired.....he's the guy who's the "dark horse" until someone else comes in.

Clark at this point isn't a dark horse because he's been on the scene here on DU for awhile....so that means something was "afoot" long before.

And, don't count Kucinich out.....Everyone counted Dean out.......and he's come on strong.....kucinich......might not be out as soon as many think.

Gebhardt........probably out but not for a few primaries longer than we would think.....labor isn't going to leave him so soon......and they shouldn't .....he's supported them....

Dean is the fronrunner now.....he has an ego....don't see him becoming Clarks's VP....It's not how he really wants to make a difference from what I've seen of the guy........

It it gets to Dean/Clark...Clark/Dean.........I think I would urge Gore to come back in......it's not a ticket I can feel comfortable with.......The pairing together of those two either way.....turns me off......Don't see it appealing to all that it would need to. Not a good match for the strengths of either of them. They should stand alone with their VP of choice......IMHO.......my 2 cents........

Edited: Many typos...probably many still there.....in a rush.

[newsguyatl]

5. i have to say

i agree...


i've always thought it would come down to gephardt and dean, but if clark enters, it will be narrowed down to those three..

i feel pretty certain we're gonna have a dean/clark ticket

[CMT]

6. No, Kerry is strong enough

to stay in thru the early primaries and then we will see how they all fare.

[eleny]

7. I hope Clark declares his candidacy...

[David Zephyr]

67. Welcome to the DU!

:hi:

[BlackRhino]

8. John F. Kerry will be the next President of the United States of America.

Bank on it! :-)

[blm]

89. 100% positive of that.

By November it will be clear to everyone.

[ShaneGR]

9. Doesn't matter to me who it is!!!!!!!!!!!

Dean, Clark, Edwards, Gephardt, Graham, Kerry......

Anyone of those six and I am all over it like jelly on toast.

This election isn't about whoever our candidate is. It is a referendum on Bush. PERIOD. As long as we have a candidate who can't be labeled a wacko we are perfectly fine.

[Capn Sunshine]

18. AMEN TO THAT BROTHER

(keeping eyes on prize)

[MGKrebs]

10. I am actually leaning towards

Clark not running.

He may want to, and supporters may want him too, but I just can't see where it makes any sense.

Crowded field, big head start by others, he will get crucified about Kosovo, and what can he do that several of the other candidates can't? (as far as governing, I mean, not campaigning).

[diplomats]

12. I believe he's running

and I don't think Kosovo is a liability for the vast majority of Dems or the electorate.

[MODemocrat]

32. I agree with you on that score

Bringing up Kosovo would only bring out the blood shed in Iraq as well, and I don't think Bush would want that. Besides, I think Bush is scared to death of Clark. He's calling himself the underdog now just like he always does when he's trying to cover up his screw ups, and get his way through sympathy. He's so pathetic.

[TacticalPeek]

63. Precismo.

The schmo.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. I agree, to a point.

If Clark & Dean split the anti-war vote, Kerry (god forbid) could possibly garner enough pro-war/moderate votes to slip in. I doubt it, but it could happen.

I'm not so sure about Gephardt. I would hope either Dean or Clark would be more creative than that and select either a woman or an African-American. An unbeatable combo.

[RamboLiberal]

14. I agree with you about Dean and Clark splitting the vote

Allowing Kerry to slip in - I can live with that as long as he beats AWOL. My fear is Lieberman slipping in as Clark, Dean and Kerry split the votes.

[Renew Deal]

13. Maybe

But I am glad you say team. I hope we are all working together, and I can't wait till the primaries are over. Then we will all be working together on one goal. Harry

[David Zephyr]

68. Welcome to the DU, Bleachers7!

One Goal! Bush and Cheney in Prison as the brides of Charlie Manson!

:hi:

[TacticalPeek]

79. LOL.

KKKarl can warm up their bed.

Let 'em lie in it.

[Renew Deal]

98. Thanks

Zeph, Glad to be here. :toast:

[jagguy]

15. isn't he about 10M behind in fundraising ?

that pretty much leaves him looking at the backup spot. Thats all I ever think he was interested in anyway other than perhaps Sec-o-State so he can show Colon how its done.

I just never saw him being serious about prez.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

16. Well David

According to Tinoire's theory, you are now a Clark infiltrator parroting a meme fed to you by the Master Control Clark Blog.

:eyes:

DTH

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Hey buddy, in fairness she was pointing out that a number of contentious

late arrivals WERE gaming. I still think outing them was not smart but I recognize the difference between actual debate and spamming a board...a couple other candidates fans seem to have done the same.

I will say and consistently so...advocating is great, good, part of the process...organizing OFF DU TO DELIBERATELY disrupt DU is chicken shit and deserves to be treated with the contempt it receives whether it is DEAN, CLARKE or FREEREPUBLIC.

:hi:
I don't box all Clarke advocates together..I respect you, Pepperbelley and many of his admirers.

I don't have any issues with him, am still undecided and would vote for him if he got the nomination.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

43. C'mon T

Here is the mention of DU that she cited from one blog on cultural memes o' week, whose author happens to be a Clark supporter:

There are FOUR threads of Clark at Democraticunderground on Clark. Indeed, Clark is taking support from Dean’s left.

That is a statement of opinion that is consistent with that blog's raison d'etre, namely studying cultural trends. And that is all.

That is a far cry from some kind of rallying cry to invade DU and convert everyone here into Clark supporters.

DTH

[DoveTurnedHawk]

44. Oh, and BTW

:loveya:

DTH

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. No the nature of the threads spoke for themselves on that

but if I were really interested in investigating and taking the time..I don't think it would be hard to find an organized effort based on the activity of the past few weeks.

again, I accuse NO REGULAR DU'ers and it doesn't change my vote...I don't care if Clarke is a distant relative of Satan..I'd rather have him in the WH than the devil himself which is what I have now...and if a few people with disruptive intentions got the message..then all the better.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

53. Not Buying :-)

I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of newcomers are here for the express purpose of boosting a Clark run; some people find out about this website, and come here to gain visibility for their candidate. I think that's true of all the candidates.

But I just don't buy that there's some organized effort to disrupt. At most, maybe there was some posting on a Clark board saying, "Go to DU and boost Clark!" And I don't really have a problem with that. As DU gains more and more visibility, it becomes a logical destination point for people with Democratic leanings.

I just don't believe there is some person directing volunteers with, "Poster X, you push Dean Is Mean, Poster Y, you push Clark Will Win, Poster Z, you push Kucinich Is Unelectable!"

DTH

[David Zephyr]

65. Clark Isn't A Distant Relative of George Bush...Er...Satan.

Happy long weekend, NSMA.

[Coffee Coyote]

110. don't denigrate Satan!

He gets a bum rap. Satan does NOT deserve to be compared to that coke-addled chimpanzee. :P

[Tinoire]

95. Thanks NSMA-

You captured my intention exactly. I can point to pre-Clark threads where I got hammered for making a similar point. Must be something hidden from my child-hood making me so maso... ;)

[David Zephyr]

52. David is A Deaniebopper.

I'm hosting a fundraiser for Dean. I'm in tooooo deep now.

Great article on Dean in this morning's LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-kuttner29aug29,1,7707119.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

:hi:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

54. Good On Ya!

I love Dean as well, just not as much as I love Clark. :-) Dean is my second fave, though, and I'm fully on board with him if Clark doesn't run.

DTH

[David Zephyr]

64. Well, DoveTurnedHawk

I like Tinoire and I like you and we will all just have to live together, like Rodney King has told us.

I'm a major Dean supporter now, but Clark will forward the argument against Bush that all the other good Democratic Candidates have been making.

[Tinoire]

96. Thanks- I'm not taking any of this personally

I once lived somewhere where entire families were "disappeared" for speaking out or for their political views... This is nothing. Sticks and stones... After the primaries, DU will simmer down. I'll try to be a little more sensitive in my choice of words though.

I just want to see the BEST candidate win, fair and square & based on the issues because nothing else will help us attract enough voters to beat Bush.

[Cheswick2.0]

74. I don't think it is fair to call out Tinoire when she is not posting here

It is a really nasty surprize to read a new thread and happen along to a post where you are being mocked and you haven't posted on the thread.

[JohnKleeb]

81. very nasty because I consider her one of my better friends

Real harsh guys, shes a very nice person should have seen what she did for me, she sent me all this Kucinich stuff. It was like X-Mas. Thanks Ches/

[Tinoire]

97. Aw shucks... I'm glad you liked it that much! Maybe I'll send DTH one too

;)

[JohnKleeb]

109. no problem

maybe DTH will like one :)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

85. You're Right, and I Apologize

I could've sworn I saw her posting elsewhere in this thread. Upon a second look, I appear to have been mistaken.

DTH

[Tinoire]

94. I did! Post #23 - See what these intense campaigns are doing to us?!

People are going blind! Or maybe because that was one of the shortest posts I made all week ;)

[Tinoire]

93. Thanks :)

You're a real DU pal... So's Dove who was thoughtful enough to let me know... I wanted to post on this thread but instead spent the afternoon preparing a presentation on my company's "memes" for next quarter. Really cool at that too... Now the young college grads will think I'm really hip ;) Hope the Clark supporters in the audience don't think I'm speaking to them in code though!

Peace

I can't wait for the emotions and drama of this election season to be over with so we can get back to normal business!

On edit: I did post! Post 23! Of course that was AFTER Dove made that comment but I have a feeling by not much. It's all good- I'll never let the passion of these elections spoil perfectly good DU relationships...

DUers- too cool for words! :)

[Tinoire]

92. Parroting? lol - no

The term is "pushing" as in "to push a meme". It's almost like a new dance.... Locomotion-syle ;)

[Forkboy]

104. We could use a lot more Tinoires in this world

[Capn Sunshine]

17. CLARK IS RUNNING FOR VP

until I hear otherwise, he's not a candidate for anything else.

If he was a serious candidate, he'd be running by now.
:nuke:

[Fleshdancer]

19. When is he jumping in???

I thought he said he was going to give his answer over Labor Day weekend and now I hear it will be closer to the 19th? The California recall debates will be taking place sometime in September. If Clark jumps in during this, the media will flat out ignore him (just like all the Presidential Candidates).

[Fleshdancer]

20. edit to my previous post

I meant to say that the reporters will be ignoring all the Presidential candidates during the California recall debates - not that the candidates would be ignoring Clark.

[Renew Deal]

47. He said

Within a week or two last Sunday and Monday. That puts us through to the 7th. I have heard the rumors about the pre-19th range. There are potentially many good date. I am gussing between the 5th and the 12th.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. I Would Post Here But Tinoire

would say I'm a mime,errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr mime.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, meme

[Tinoire]

23. Meme.... The word is "meme" :)

But I wouldn't say you were one... At the absolute most, I might ask you if you were pushing "this week's meme" or something to that effect but lol... ;)

Never forget what it says when you signed on to DU... "a thick skin is needed". I think you already have one but if in doubt, just go hang out in I/P for a week ;)

Nothing person but this is politics with wars and lives in the balance.

Ironically, peace

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. I Prefer To Handicap The Race

Dean 1-2 favorite

Kerry 3-1 favorite

Gep 5-1 favorite

Edwards 7-1 favorite

Graham 10-1 favorite

Lieberman 15-1 favorite

Kucinich 50-1 favorite

Sharpton 75-1 favorite

Moseley Braun 100-1 favorite

[MGKrebs]

34. That looks like fun...I'll try it!

Dean 1-2 favorite
Kerry 3-1 favorite
Gep 5-1 favorite
Edwards 7-1 favorite
Graham 50-1 favorite
Moseley Braun 50-1 favorite
Kucinich 50-1 favorite
Sharpton 100-1 favorite
Lieberman 1,000,000-1 favorite

Odds that Clark will run; 3-2 that he won't

Odds for Clark if he does run: 20-1

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. I Didn't Handicap Clark But We're Close

I'd give the general election odds but I am afraid
I'd be crucified..


I think they have sites where you can "buy" options on the primary candidates.

[MGKrebs]

42. From another thread and a link:

(Hope you don't mind, Pepperbelly!)

Pepperbelly  (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-29-03 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. political oddsmakers

Of the candidates you mentioned, the odds are as follows:
Braun at 500/1,
Sharpton at 500/1,
Graham at 25/1,
Kucinich at 500/1,
Edwards at 20/1,
Lieberman at 7/1.

The candidates that you think should stay:
Kerry at 6/1,
Clark (unannounced) at 20/1,
Dean at 5/1,
Gep at 5/1.
They have Hillary at 6/1 while someone else comes in at 10/1.
http://www.campaignline.com/odds/index.cfm

[Julien Sorel]

26. Better a mime than

a clown...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. Does That Mean We're Even?

[Julien Sorel]

49. What?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. Nothing

Peace

[MGKrebs]

24. Dean/Gephardt is interesting.

The traditional insider Dem and the new outsider Dem. Anti-NAFTA, pro-NAFTA. Could they reconcile their philosophical differences? It might be a good marriage if they could. But I doubt it.

[Pastiche423]

31. Gephardt voted for the slaughter

And he stood shoulder to shoulder to whistle ass.

[JasonBerry]

33. Thanks For The Pic, Pastiche ! I will never forget.

~

[WillyT]

55. Yeah, What Are Gephardt And Lieberman Doin With All Those Repukes ???

They're hopin a little of that 'Bush Magic' will rub off on them.

Well boys, it did, and you're payin the price for it. You and thousands of Iraqis and Americans!!!

Nice goin!

:argh:

[David Zephyr]

71. That Old "Bush Magic"...

That killled me...WillyT.

I wonder what that "Bush Magic" smells like when it is rubbed on one.

[Bread and Circus]

59. I love that pic....

and that is why I don't like Gep and Lieb.

Nor do I like Hillary.

Personally, I like Dean cuz he's had some balls
and kucinich seems to be principled and what-not.

Buth Lieb and Gep standing shoulder to shoulder with
that asshole, how can you forgive them....


:puke:

[Bread and Circus]

60. I love that pic....

and that is why I don't like Gep and Lieb.

Nor do I like Hillary. She stood up way too
much during Bush's speeches.

Personally, I like Dean cuz he's had some balls
and kucinich seems to be principled and what-not.

Buth Lieb and Gep standing shoulder to shoulder with
that asshole, how can you forgive them....


:puke:

[Bread and Circus]

62. Oh my god....

I actually agreed on with JasonBerry and Pastiche.

:)

[poskonig]

69. The GOP would use Gephardt's war position to bash Dean.

Dean needs someone who reinforces his controversial war position, not weakens him. Dean/Gephardt is a very bad idea because of this fact, and I say this independent of my dislike of Gephardt.

[TacticalPeek]

75. Reasonable.

n/t

[tjdee]

76. I disagree--we need a pro and an anti to unify the party.

I am not crazy at all about Gep, regardless.

But I really, really feel that we need to have a mixed ticket to unify the party. The Iraq thing is what is causing major division in the party right now.

[TacticalPeek]

83. Hmmm . . .that could get pretty tricky.

Sounds like a puzzle for the Big Dog to explicate, or somebody good at fivemovesahead stuff.

Clark? I guess we'd see.

[Renew Deal]

99. I have never seen that.

That looks terrible. WTF are they doing?

:wtf:

[TacticalPeek]

100. I guess the press pool is inside the podium,

pecking away.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

25. Gephardt will bring a lot of support, especially unions

He would be very good to have on the ticket, and he'd make a great President or Vice President.

[MODemocrat]

27. I think you have it right Zephyr, I'm behind any of the above.

Except, the only thing that might be different, is that hopefully, Kerry will remain as well as Gephardt. Gephardt is from my State, but I'm supporting Howard Dean to the end.

[buddhamama]

28. if Clark enters the race then we'll have another candidate in the race

nothing more nothing less. still too soon to call it imo.

how are ya' doing,David? :loveya:

[David Zephyr]

48. Gen. Clark, Like Gov. Dean, Will Bring New Blood into the Party

Even though I am committed to Howard Dean and having a fundraiser for him next month, I welcome General Clark's entering the race.

The LA Times featured a great piece on him this morning.

General Clark will pump up the base and attract hundreds of thousands of more people into leaning Democrat for 2004 --- just as Governor Dean has.

Of course, I like all the candidates (I can't say I "love" them the way William Pitt does, but I am with him on his larger point of supporting any of them), but these two have enormous appeal to me...and I think it will extend to the general electorate, as well.

Here's wishing you a great extended weekend, Buddhamama.

:loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya:

[JasonBerry]

29. Who Needs Primaries? Nahhhh......

Hey - it's all over! A guy with name recognition registering about zilch on the national scene is going to announce and within TWO WEEKS this guy is going to blow everyone else away. GET BEHIND THE TEAM! With all due respect, I think we should all be involved in the primary process (democracy....remember?), stand by our candidate, and see what happens. Wesley Clark, Howard Dean - NOBODY is going to be coronated. But, thanks for the lecture anyway. A lot of us like to hear the latest talking points.

[JohnKleeb]

82. thaks Jason

much thanks. Thanks again./

[TacticalPeek]

38. Over recent decades, the successful VP rarely comes from the P contenders.

n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I Believe Reagan -Bush (80)

was the last time it happened...

[TacticalPeek]

40. Voodoo and Bride of Voodoo.

n/t

[bigtree]

41. Clark's a military man. Period.

A former general with no political experience. Not even a war victory to brag about. Sounds like he's got a grudge against the Bush Admin. and the way they tried to blackball him and get him fired for his outspokenness on the war. He still strikes me as a 'one more war to end this war" fellow. Like Graham. Not much appeal in the Dem ranks for any pro-war stand. Wait until Kerry's bio is mainstreamed. Bronze and Silver Stars, and eloquent speeches and testimony againdt the Vietnam war when he was a young returnee. Got a taste of that today in a MSNBC report.
Young Kerry to congressional committee: "How can you ask a soldier to be the last one to die in Vietnam?"

[tjdee]

45. Uh-Kerry is a pro-war fellow, and Clark has some of them medals too.

I'm not really sure at what you're getting at, but you say

"Not much appeal in the Dem ranks for any pro-war stand" but you seem to like Kerry?

Not only does Clark have a medal or two from Vietnam, he also left part of his calf and first finger there.

I'm quite confused that you feel Clark is a 'one more war to end the war' type when you don't feel that way about Kerry.

As to his 'grudge' against Bush, I've got a grudge against Bush too, and he never tried to get me fired.

[David Zephyr]

56. Here's A Story From This Morning's LA Times on Clark's "Medals"

Four-Star Rating for a Wesley Clark Campaign
By Robert Kuttner

"Retired general has the stuff to put himself in the top tier of Democrats."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-kuttner29aug29,1,7707119.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

[DoveTurnedHawk]

57. Great Article, Thanks for Sharing It

I didn't have the chance to read the LAT this morning, and I live in LA! :-)

DTH

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. In My Best Al Pacino Voice From Godfather 3

"Every time I try to leave they pull me back in."


Kerry deserves his props but you don't get to be a Four Star General (Clark) without getting a boatload of medals.

[Pepperbelly]

46. gee bigtree ...

if you want to support Kerry, then do so but to trash someone else's candidates with horseshit opinion masquerading as fact doesn't serve the long term interests of your candidate.

[bigtree]

90. Pepperbelly

Yeh. I did come off like a jerk. Clark's nice enough...
What I'm gettin at is that Clark's appeal is mostly from his militaryness. One dimensional. That won't trump Kerry.

I think that he might understand how to oppose a war, perhaps because of his earlier protests. And, you get a view of the other side of Kerry in his militarism. Still a dangerous world.

Kerry's been a good liberal in the Senate.

As for money, I believe Kerry has raised the most so far, notwithstanding the web success of Dean or any momentous response Clark may have recieved in his fund raising. And don't forget Kerry's millionare wife, the Heinz widow will kick in dough when he needs it.

[Pepperbelly]

91. Myself ...

I think Wesley may have a better grip on the economy than even Clinton. Check him out more closely. Masters in Economics from Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar.

No way a Poppy figure could buy that for someone.

I think he might be the real deal, my friend. And I sincerely hope that he has a raging hard on for Bush, for what Whistleass has done to our nation. I just hope that if he gets in, he allows his natural inclinations to rule more than the crap the consultants and pol operative put out.

[bigtree]

107. natural inclinations

There's always a problem with candidates with little no political experience. They will often surround themselves with a mishmosh of likley suspects; known quantities that reflect the status quo.

Still will be a long time off before we can quantify Clark's political worth (not just talking about the ability to win, but also his potential to effect legislative change) and his legislative intentions. Working with a legislature can be quite different from his command experience, although I have no doubt that he has developed some necessary communication skills in his military leadership position and his television consulting, as well.

[TacticalPeek]

72. Welcome to DU, bigtree!

If "Not much appeal in the Dem ranks for any pro-war stand" is like "for any pro-continuing-war stand", or even war generally, then I can see what you could mean.

The MSNBC bit was the first overall positive effect I've seen on tv yet for Kerry. Maybe the packaging has been loose, since its early in some ways; although you hear a lot of "its late", too.

There are degrees of damage for each pro vote dem. The easiest plea is being misled, deceived into rubberstamping an arguably reasonable protocol, expected to be immediately dishonored, leading to an unnecessary war in the desert.

[poskonig]

66. Clark's prowess is overrated; bad candidate pairs.

Clark has no money and no organization. If he doesn't win Iowa or New Hampshire, Clark would be in serious trouble. Even worse, if Dean wins Iowa AND New Hampshire, **all** of the other candidates are in trouble.

Gephardt is polling at 21% in Iowa. Clark has 3%. Kerry is polling at 17% in NH. Clark is at 2%.

In addition, Clark/Dean is a lame ticket, since Dean would outshine Clark and offer nothing electorally. Dean/Gephardt is bad for other reasons; since Dean already has a lot of ground organization in many battle ground states, he would want someone to reinforce his controversial stand on Iraq, not someone who would provide good-cop/bad-cop ammo for the Republicans.

However, Clark/Gephardt and Dean/Clark are doable.

[mot78]

70. OH MY GOD, CLARK DOESN'T HAVE SUPPORTERS

Really? Last I heard there were groups in Iowa and New Hampshire airing radio/tv ads, opening up field offices, and attending Meetups. No organization my butt.

BTW just because Dean is doing so well doesn't mean he has this thing locked up. A large number of primary voters in Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina are still undecided. And many big donars are sitting out. Also, the Draftwesleyclark.com has raised more than $1 Million in pledges for the General, so Dean isn't the only one who's web-savvy.

[tjdee]

73. LOL, I wasn't even going to touch it.

But in addition to what you said, he has no organization and no money because he isn't running yet!

When he announces, if he does, then come and tell me about the lack of organization and money--won't be a huge problem.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see some staffers defect.

[poskonig]

77. Anybody can raise monopoly money.

Clark is going to have trouble winning in NH and Iowa. And when he doesn't, he's sunk. Clark isn't going to walk in there and say, "I'm a General," and everyone will ooh and ahh over him. One, the Democratic Party is not that desperate. Secondly, to win those states, Clark needs much organization, the kind Dean has been building since, well, December. If Clark got the 23% undecided in NH in addition to his current 2% support, he'd still trail Dean's 38% support. And I don't see Kerry and Dean shrinking with their massive warchests.

I'm not convinced Wesley will fight a battle he cannot win, but we shall see what happens.

[Pepperbelly]

86. Wesley is one up in each area of expterise except ...

campaign experience.

Apart from that, your analysis is superficial because Clark would not expect to win either NH or Iowa but to show a respectable 3rd in each. If he does that, he is in until March when the thing will actually be won or lost.

Super-Tuesday, as usual, will tell the tale.

[Pepperbelly]

88. re: your insulting dismissal of Clark

-snip-

Arguably, Clark matches each of the strengths of the current crop of contenders, and then raises them one. His Army background--stretching from Vietnam to Kosovo--out-oomphs Kerry's military record. His service as commander of NATO forces compares favorably to Dean's executive experience as governor of a small New England state. He adds gravitas to Edwards's aesthetic appeal, charisma to Lieberman's thoughtfulness, and sincerity to Gephardt's liberal policies.


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0309.sullivan.html

[Renew Deal]

101. Numbers

That's assuming Dean doesn't lose anyone to Clark.

[David Zephyr]

78. Clark Opposed the War.

I don't understand your comment about Clark not reinforcing Dean's courageous stand against the war, because that's exactly what it would do in my thinking.

The 3% Clark is showing without even having been a candidate is quite remarkable since that is exactly the same that Lieberman now has.

In any event, I'm with you supporting Dean and I will support any Democrat over the Chimp if I have to be rolled to the polls on life support to do so.

[poskonig]

80. The comment was about Gephardt.

Read carefully. ;)

[David Zephyr]

84. Duhhhhh.

or more slowly. Thanks! :hi:

Gephardt will score in Iowa and New Hampshire with his organization, union support and money. That will qualify him for critical matching funds to keep him going along with his union funding.

Gephardt will also do well enough in South Carolina where he is long known there as an ardent opponent of NAFTA and keeping jobs from going offshore. Gephardt should do well enough there to again keep qualifying for matching funds which is why he will be able to possibly make it all the way to the Convention with delegates and which is why he could be a VP contender...one of the other two (Dean or Clark) might need those Gephardt Delegates come roll call time. Someone may have to make a deal.

Dean is already so strong with organization and money and supporters nationwide that he will is now guaranteed to have major influence come the Convention in Boston. The only candidate that could even possibly slow my candidate, Dean, is Clark.

Dean supporters should be aware that there will be a counter-Dean reaction that will gravitate towards one or two candidates. I think Clark gets Kerry's crowd relatively quickly and becomes the alternative "choice".

[Terwilliger]

102. wrong

Geppie won't be anywhere near the primary...much less the nomination.

[cosmicdot]

103. have a safe Labor Day Weekend

nothing like a fresh subject to bring us all together

I'm sticking with Dennis Kucinich


Dear Friend,

I intend to begin a new debate in America over the purpose of government and its responsibilities to the American people. This Issues Section will provide an introduction to my views. A debate always involves an exchange of ideas. I welcome and respect your opinions. I would like to hear from you.
Thank you,

Dennis

I support and endorse his positions on:

Affirmative Action
Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty
Campaign Finance
Campaign Reform / IRV
Civil Liberties
Clean Water
Cleveland Public Power
Corporations
Cuba
Death Penalty
Department of Peace
Drug war
Economy
Education
Energy
Environment
Farm Policy
Gay Rights
Genetically Engineered Food
Instant Runoff Voting
International Cooperation
Iraq
Manufacturing
Middle East
Military Spending
Nuclear Safety
Prescription Drugs
Racial Discrimination
Reproductive Rights
Social Security and Pension Protection
Trade
Universal Health Care
Water as a Human Right
Weapons & Non-Proliferation
Workers Rights

http://www.kucinich.us/issues.htm



Dennis Kucinich: The Progressive Vision



It's time for America to resume its glorious journey. Time to reject shrinking jobs and wages, disappearing savings and rights. Time to reject the detour towards fear and greed. Time to look out upon the world for friends, not enemies. Time to counter the control of corporations over our politics, our economy, our resources, and mass media. Time for those who have much to help those who have little by maintaining a progressive tax structure. Time to tell the world that we wish to be their partner in peace, not their leader in war. Most of all, it is time for America to again be the land where dreams come true because the government is on the side of its people.

Unfortunately, America now leads the world in categories we should not be proud of. America is now the world’s leading jailer with an incarceration rate higher than China. We lead the industrialized world in poverty and in the growing gap between rich and poor. And we are the only industrial nation not to provide national health care.

This is what a Kucinich administration would work to deliver for America:

<1> Universal Health Care with a Single Payer Plan
Over 40 million Americans have no health care and 30 million more have only minimal coverage. Those with coverage often pay exorbitant amounts. The current profit-driven system, dominated by private insurance firms and their bureaucracies, has failed.

A Kucinich administration would establish streamlined national health insurance, Medicare for All. It would be publicly-financed health care, privately delivered. It would provide affordable prescription drugs, thanks to bulk purchasing. The General Accounting Office of Congress has concluded:

"If the U.S. were to shift to a system of universal coverage and a single payer, as in Canada, the savings in administrative costs would be more than enough to offset the cost."

<2> Full Social Security Benefits at Age 65
Social security is the basic covenant our society has with workers who have built our economy. At a time when CEOs earn 240 times the pay of the average worker, it is unconscionable not to return full retirement benefits to age 65.

A Kucinich administration would make that possible through a progressive tax structure and reordered national priorities. Social Security must not be privatized. Retirement years cannot be dependent on the rise and fall of the stock market.

<3> Withdrawal from NAFTA and WTO
The global trade regime of NAFTA and WTO has enriched multinational corporations. But for workers, family farmers, and the environment, it has meant a global race to the bottom. Companies leave the U.S. in search of low wages, low commodity prices, anti-union climates, and lax environmental laws. NAFTA has been used to whipsaw workers at the negotiation table, forcing wages and benefit concessions under threat of moving jobs overseas. Trade treaties must be conditioned on workers’ rights, human rights, and environmental principles.

Among the first actions of a Kucinich Administration will be withdrawal from NAFTA and the WTO—to be replaced by fair trade agreements.

<4> Repeal of the "Patriot Act"
The "Patriot Act" is not what American patriots have fought and died for. To allow our Bill of Rights to be nullified without judicial supervision invites tyranny. The Attorney General has been handed unfettered power to wiretap, search, jail, and invade our most sacred right to privacy. The government must not be allowed, without probable cause or warrant, to snoop on our communications, medical records, library records, and student records.

<5> Right-to-Choose, Privacy, and Civil Rights
In a Kucinich administration, a woman’s right-to-choose will be protected as essential to personal privacy and gender equality. Only those who agree to uphold Roe v. Wade will be nominated for the Supreme Court. Civil rights (and voting rights) enforcement will be intensified. Lesbians and gays will be afforded complete equality throughout society. Affirmative action will be maintained as a tool for racial and gender equality. Drug policy will emphasize treatment over criminalization, and not a rampaging war that erodes Constitutional freedoms, privacy, and law enforcement resources. An end to capital punishment will be sought.

<6> Balance Between Workers and Corporations
American workers are working longer and harder for less pay than 20 years ago. What’s needed is a resurgence of organized labor, and a Kucinich administration will tenaciously defend the rights of workers to organize and bargain collectively. Since the purchasing power of the minimum wage has dropped 21% in two decades, it’s time for living wages, not minimum wages. And it’s time to reverse tax cuts that benefit the already well-to-do, and retain an estate tax. Investing $500 billion to rebuild schools, roads, bridges, ports, and sewage, water and environmental systems will do more to stimulate our economy than tax breaks for the wealthy.
<7> Guaranteed Quality Education, Pre-K through College
Since education is the only proven way to reduce poverty, it is unacceptable that a child’s education be dependent on where they are born or the financial status of their family. The federal government spends only 2.9% of its budget on education. That will change under a Kucinich administration, because quality education is a core American right and value.

Education must emphasize creative and critical thinking, not just test-taking. Schools need money to decrease class size, increase teachers’ salaries, renovate decaying facilities, and include hands-on job training for those not going to college. Pre-K and after-school programs will get increased funding, and the soaring costs of college will be reversed.

<8> A Renewed Commitment to Peace and Diplomacy
America will return to its role as the most admired—not hated—nation. The doctrine of "pre-emption" will be retired, as will an aggressive, unilateralist foreign policy that makes our homeland less secure, not more. Our security will be enhanced by working with other nations and the U.N. instead of acting like an Empire, arrogantly undermining international agreements such as the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Biological and Chemical Weapons Conventions, the Small Arms Treaty, the International Criminal Court, and the Kyoto Climate Treaty. As President, Kucinich will work to implement two measures he sponsored in Congress: the Space Preservation Treaty, which bans space-based weapons, and a cabinet-level Department of Peace, to establish non-violence as an organizing principle in both domestic and international affairs.

A Kucinich administration will cut bloated and unneeded weaponry from a military budget that now almost equals the military spending of all other countries combined. The Kucinich peace dividend will be invested in education, health care, environmental clean-up, urban infrastructure, Social Security, veterans’ benefits, and other pressing domestic needs.

<9> Restored Rural Communities and Family Farms
Agriculture, trade, and economic policies that favor agribusiness conglomerates have devastated family farmers, rural communities, and the environment. While the number of family farmers has plummeted, profits have soared for a handful of agribusiness giants that increas-ingly control everything from seed to shelf.

A Kucinich administration will break up agricultural monopolies and restore a strong, independent family farm system with fair prices for farmers and healthy food for consumers. A Kucinich Administration will monitor and reduce contamination of our air, water, and food from factory farms, with strong USDA enforcement of tough new food safety laws.

<10> Environmental Renewal and Clean Energy
Clean air and water, as well as an intact ozone layer, are not luxuries, but necessities for our children’s future.

A Kucinich administration will toughen environmental enforcement, support the Kyoto Treaty on global climate change, reduce oil dependence, and spur investment in alternative energy sources, including hydrogen, solar, wind, and ocean. Clean energy technologies will produce new jobs. Tax and other incentives will favor sustainable businesses that conserve energy, retrofit pollution prevention technologies, and redesign toxins out of their manufacturing processes. The right to know (for example, when food is genetically engineered) will supercede corporate secrecy. Globally, the U.S. will become a leader in sustainable energy production and a partner with developing nations in providing inexpensive, local, renewable energy technologies.


Who is Dennis Kucinich?

Congressman Kucinich of Ohio is a modern "Profile in Courage." In the late 1970s, as the youngest mayor ever of a major city, Dennis bravely said "NO" to an Enron-like takeover of Cleveland’s city-owned power company, Muny Light. In retaliation, major banks—which were interlocked with the private utility that would have become a monopoly by seizing Muny—drove the city into default. Dennis’s political career was derailed ... until 15 years later, when he was vindicated for resisting a corporate power grab and saving Cleveland residents hundreds of millions of dollars on their electric bills. In five consecutive winning elections since 1994, his campaign symbol has been a light bulb.

Elected to Congress in 1996, Dennis has continued to wage courageous battles for workers, consumers, the environment, and civil rights. He is the only presidential candidate who voted against the civil libertiesshredding "Patriot Act." He rallied opposition to the illegal and destabilizing Iraq war—from a small group of Congressional dissenters to the nearly 2/3 of House Democrats who ultimately voted against the war resolution. He co-chairs the Progressive Caucus, the largest caucus of Democrats in Congress. Dennis Kucinich is a heartland politician who can win elections. When he became mayor, state senator, and then Congress member, he defeated a Republican incumbent each time. In 2004, he hopes to defeat another one: George W. Bush.

[JohnKleeb]

105. Thats what I am a part of

I will not yield win or lose, no one can replace Kucinich in my heart, I will keep my avatar, and I will unless I somehow forget remember this great man. I really admire DK a lot, I was wondering why the dems dont say repeal taft-hartley, I never wrote to anyone, but this past June I saw and read that Dennis wants to repeal that. Harry Truman would be proud :)
We Kucinichites are lucky to have him :)

[juajen]

106. Well all I have to say about that, is

Welcome aboard Clark! I did read on either Buzzflash or Drudge that his wife "Gert" was supporting the run. I would like to propose now that we call her "Trudy". Somehow I don't like the sound of First Lady Gert Clark. The article said it would be around the 15th of Sept. and he has a speech in Iowa on the 16th. Interesting. I think a lot of powerful dems are waiting on this announcement to plug in money and support. Just my gut feeling, though I have heard this echoed in other places. I also think that both Clintons will endorse him. Anyone taking bets?

All I have to say about that scenario is that I hope somewhere Dennis Kucinich will be in somebody's cabinet. He's a good man and certainly deserves a lot for being a voice in the wilderness for the past two years.

[JohnKleeb]

108. for DK I think if he doesnt become pres

heres a good cabinet place; labor or education, if you thought he was something else on labor, hes the best on education, and its such a nice idea.