Michael Moore on MSNBC,...echoes of Smedley Butler

[julka]

War is a Racket.

those are the words of one of the great, little-known patriots of the 20th Century.

he's been discussed around here a little bit, but those words were pretty much rehashed, however haltingly, and semi-elogquently by Michael Moore a few minutes ago on Press/Buchanan.

he said that what we're doing by sending our troops to Baghdad to secure their oilfields is "despicable," and made the same points Butler did about 70 years ago, regarding the rapine of the Caribbean and Central America.

thoughts?

back to the show....more on Moore

[jiacinto]

1. Whatever

Moore's campaigning for Nader helped make Bush president. I know people worship him as if he were a God here and they get angry when anyone dares to mention this point about their hero. But I could care less about Moore. It's like the person who left the door open to hen house complaining about how "horrible" it was that the foxes killed and devoured the poor chickens inside.

[Eloriel]

2. And most of us could care less that you could care less

about Moore. And we're also sick and tired of your same old, identically wording rants wherever Moore's name appears. Ferchrissake, at least get some new language for your little whine.

Eloriel

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[bicentennial_baby]

13. What a nasty thing to say

You're usually civil with people, but damn Carlos, that's rude as hell, imho.

[jiacinto]

14. She was rude to me

I just gave back what she dished out to me.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleApple81]

6. I love you Eloriel. Direct and to the point! n/t

[Pastiche423]

9. I love Eloriel too!

I always look forward to reading her posts. She has taught me so much! She is intelligent, savvy and takes time to truly research an issue.

I very much appreciate her many, many contributions to DU!

P.S. I like Michael Moore for his years of hard work, opening the eyes of USians to what is and has really been going on in our government.

[MisterP]

12. I second that

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[eablair3]

39. eloriel Rules!!!

way to say it!

for a person who claims he could care less about what moore says, ... he sure has A LOT of posts in this thread on moore.

the whole thread is disrupted. ... along with Eloriel,

Michael Moore Rules!

And, so does Ralph Nader!

And, so does Phil Donahue!

there is nothing like telling like it is, ... they tell the TRUTH!

[bitchkitty]

4. "Whatever"

He's also about the only public figure to take advantage of his status as a celebrity in front of an audience of millions to state the simple truth about the "fictitious" chimp.

I wish you'd just let it go. Moore isn't Nader, and he has just as much a right to be human and make a mistake as anyone else. Let it go - you'll feel much better. I know I did.

[jiacinto]

5. He has no credibility with me

Why should I care about what he he has to say when he helped make this possible? It's like the teenager who set the fire talking about how bad arson is after it burns down his parents' home.

[bpilgrim]

7. "Why should I care about what he he has to say" - you might learn somethin

:hi:

peace

[jiacinto]

8. I doubt it

And frankly why should I care about Moore bitching about Bush when he helped make his administration possible? Not one DUer who worships this man has been able to answer that question for me.

[ikojo]

68. Michael Moore and Ralph Nader

did not make the election of baby Bush possible. The fact thatl Al Gore ran a very bad campaign and selected a very conservative DINO as his running mate just MIGHT have something to do with the fact that a lot of people saw very little difference between the two parties on election day.

During the "debate" in St Louis Al Gore agreed with W 37 times! He allowed W to direct the course of the debate and offered very little in the way of substantive difference. Let's not even begin discussing the p**s poor job LIEberman did during his "debate" with Cheney! Oy vey iz mir! I get fehrklempt just thinking about it!

Why don't the voters of AL GORE'S OWN HOME STATE OF TENNESSEE get blamed for W being in the White House? THEY obviously did not want him in the white house because that state went to baby Bush.

There were also a GREAT NUMBER OF DEMOCRATS who pulled the lever for W, so it's time to get off the Michael Moore bashing and direct it where it is needed:
THE DLC for running Republican lite candidates such as Al Gore, Dick Gephardt, Holy Joe LIEberman et. al.

Until the mass of people, and not just party ideologues, can see a NOTICEABLE difference between the two parties (and I am not just talking pro versus anti choice because believe it or not there are other issues) more and more Americans will choose to stay home on election day. The Democrats need to be as resolute and strong in THEIR message as the repugnicans are. Stop letting the pugs set the tone of the national debate. Stop being REACTIVE and begin being PROactive.

[Q]

70. Just as bad...

...is blaming the THEFT of the 2000 election on Gore. It's too much like blaming the victim of rape.

- Just to remind you...Gore received more votes than any other Dem in history. This is not the stuff of a 'bad' campaign. You may have this impression because of the way the corporate media attacked him for calling corporations 'greedy'.

[jiacinto]

77. First of all Lieberman isn't a DINO

If you ever bothered to look at Project Vote Smart you would see that. But then again, when it comes to Lieberman, people can lie about him and make it the truth. Just because he doesn't meet DU standards--in fact very few elected Democrats except maybe Barabara Lee or the few who come from very Democratic seats--doesn't make him a conservative. I've spent months trying to show the truth about Lieberman, but people like you continue to lie. Which makes me wonder if your dislike for Lieberman has something do with other reasons not connected to his actual political beliefs.

As for TN, with Nader harassing Gore in key swing states, he didn't have the money to compete there. Thanks to Nader, who broke his promise not to campaign in swing states, Gore had to spend precious resources in places like MN, IA, WA, OR, and WI. Money that could have gone to AR, KY, TN, MO, LA, NV, AZ, and FL.

Like the typical Nader and Moore apologist you fail to realize that most of those "Democrats" that you mention have not voted for the Party's candidates since 1976; and, if you delve further, many of them haven't probably voted for the party's candidate since 1964. A lot of the most Republican southern states still have more Democrats than Republicans.

I do blame Nader and Moore. They lied about Gore constantly. I do hold them responsible for their role in what happened. If Moore were truly against Bush he would have voted for Gore instead of Nader.

[Walt Starr]

87. As far as I'm concerned, Liebnerman is an Republican

Your opinions about Lieberman have little credibility with me.

[jiacinto]

102. But see

to some DUers even those in the party who are to the left are considered DINOs because a lot of people here come from the very far left.

[Cocoa]

10. he was excellent

I'm also angry about Nader and 2000, but he was excellent on MSNBC just now.

I'd recommend looking up a transcript.

[Room101]

19. jiacinto - You are so mis- informed.....

Moore went to the Nader camp and pleaded with them to tell his voters to vote gore in Florida. And you are now on my ignore list, reserved for people who throw babies out with bath water, and eat their own.

[jiacinto]

21. Go ahead put me on your ignore list

Yeah but by that point it was way too late. The damage had been done. He had been attacking Gore for months.

[DrWeird]

26. At least he's not an apologist for the Bush admin.

like some so called democrats are.

[jiacinto]

27. At least those Democrats voted for Gore

unlike Moore, who voted for Nader.

[DrWeird]

29. at least he doesn't kiss Bush's ass.

like Joe Leiberman.

At least he doesn't drive and SUV...

[noiretextatique]

100. jiacinto: who made you the aribiter of "correct" voting?

:shrug: frankly, this horse is dead....why don't you bury the remains? such bitterness is childish.

[jiacinto]

103. It's simple

Gore had the best chance of winning. Nader didn't. And there was no way Nader was going to win. I know that, as the typical Nader apologist, he can do no wrong and that he is above reproach; but it's really simple. And Nader wanted Bush to win.

[mumon]

28. Moore was headed in the right direction...

Look, we don't all do "party discipline" here.

Gore shares alot of the blame too- he should have embraced Clinton's sexual excesses; instead he tried to be "his own man."

He should have called Bill a Mighty Man who was attacked by puny and jealous (don't think "penis, penis, penis") enemies. He was a Nitzchean warrior type, who got what he wanted and had the cigar to prove it. That's what I would've done: every time Starr dribbled out some damning piece of something, Clinton's popularity shot up like a throbbing, hot...oh, never mind. Gore should have played on this: should have said, "These clowns tried to remove him for a b-job!" But NOOOOO he was quiet as a church-mouse on this in the campaign.

Gore was a jerk on this point, and if you're going to bash Moore, I'll bash Gore.

[bitchkitty]

34. I love it!

every time Starr dribbled out some damning piece of something, Clinton's popularity shot up like a throbbing, hot...oh, never mind.

Made me laugh, thanks! I'm definitely going to steal that one. ;)

[mumon]

73. You'll never read the phrase....

"Dean surges in polls" quite the same way again, right?

[Forkboy]

51. lmfao

waaaaaaaaaaaaaah

:nopity:

[julka]

53. I'm tired

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=imfao

[lazarus]

63. and once again

You've forgotten that Moore had a falling out with Nader when Nader broke his promise not to campaign in "battleground" states, and spent the last few weeks leading up to the election pushing for people to vote for Gore.

[Karenina]

67. Anyone more interested in SMEDLEY BUTLER

than another Moore/Nader flame PLEASE GO DIRCTLY TO THE LINKS IN POSTS #43 and #62. And remember as you read them, Butler wrote these truths a LONG time ago!

[julka]

94. thank you very much for that

that was my point in starting this thread.

there was a concerted effort to OVERTHROW Roosevelt almost from the getgo.

Butler could've been their puppet, but he knew what they were like; he spent his career serving their interests, and finally wised up,
perhaps a little bit like David Hackworth, but I don't know what to make of him.


the lessons "learned" but never revealed to the general public from that episode should be trotted out today, 'cause it's happening before our eyes. PNAC/Carlyle/Kissinger Associates are the modern
link between what almost happened in 33/34 and what IS happening now.

[Walt Starr]

78. Carlos, you're attacking the messenger, not the message

That's the fallacy of ad hominem and demonstrates you cannot counter the message.

[JPace]

15. Michael Moore is one of the few

anti bush people around that can even
get press. His good points far outweight
his negatives. He is a champion of the
powerless and we need far more of them.

Voting is a right of every citizen no
matter who they vote for. I voted for
Gore and no one was more dissappointed
over his loss than myself, but why he
lost is complex and cannot be blamed
on only those who voted for Nader.

Michael Moore is now creating a film
on AWOL himself.....this should go
a long way in helping people understand
how bad AWOL is for Americans. I really
look forward to this film as much as
the right and Karl Rove must be dreading
it.

[julka]

17. ;YESSSS!!!!

everybody's right!!!!!

Moore FUCKED up BIGTIME, in 2000, but he was UNINFORMED!

he was too busy making money, getting pub to realize just how much of a fricking NAZI mofo is the BFEE enterprise (tautology?)

I love you both, BTW, BK and Eloriel, and jacinto, too, cause, you're all correct.

dem party is the ACHORDATE party, until they start talking like Boondocks, re: Sharpton/Dean

Moore, as jacinto said, helped "elect" the pan trog, but he's at least willing to talk about the egregiousness of the junta at this point

jesus.......tweety has, get this: Frank Luntz, Hitchens, and Mowbray, I think, repeatingn the HATE BUSH MEME

btw, Bitchkitty, that definition of meme was one of the best things I've ever read. can you repost that here?

[julka]

23. by the WAY

haven't been able to get on, but I'm sure somebody commented on this:

why Bill Maher should be ignored.....reason #1---->

last night on Larry King he said FRANK LUNTZ was the number one pollster in the US!!!!!!!!!!!


doesn anything more need to be said about the state of his political unawareness?

he comes up with the occasional bon mot, but his signal to noise ration is getting progressively worse.

if only Bill Hicks hadn't bit it..........sigh

[jiacinto]

24. I don't agree

Moore knew what he was doing. He was informed. I don't buy that.

[Room101]

25. Julka- He pleaded with Nader, to tell his voters to vote gore in Florida

Moore new it would be close and could decide the election, but Nader would not listen. To busy making money you say? You are UNINFORMED; I have three speeches Moore gave right after 911 talking about the BFEE.

In his book he mentions the Bush Nazi connection you read his book right? You are now on my ignore list, reserved for people who throw babies out with bath water and eat their own (Anti-Bush people)

[julka]

30. I love you, too!!!!!!!

I juat typed out a long, eloquent (to myself) response, then his a button that deleted the whole thing, not allowing me to find it.


so, here.

BFEE needs to be stopped; even if they are in 2004, it might be too late........globalization is the real enemy.....WTO, IMF, World Bank are the ones to fear.

Dems/Pugs serve at their feet.

Dems for now are holding action

is their any hope for the future?

I emaile to Bob Somerby about this in 01, and he said no, back then.

wonder what he thinks now?

what do you think, assuming you aren't ignoring me.

if you are, couldn't it be POSSIBLE that you're just a bit doctrinaire yourself, ya hey?

[julka]

31. stupid ether, couldn't edit ignorant typos

the point remains.......

holding action

any port in a storm

if Bush gets reselected, this country is going to turn out like Weimar, if it isn't too late already.

it's SO much easier now

what's to be done


?????????????????????????????????

[Donna Zen]

33. What's to be undone?

Plenty big topic

Moore is not the enemy. Each of us chose our own path and Moore chose his in 2000. If he could have a re-do, would he have acted differently? I prefer to live in a democracy where each person makes those choices for themselves. "Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards." (Kierkegaard) What Moore said today is therefore important...when I get on tv I'll try to do better. How about you?

Liking what Moore is saying today equals Moore worship. Now where did I put my alter? Oh right...I don't seem to have one.

[bitchkitty]

36. Boy, doesn't take much with you,

does it? I'm trying to figure out what julka said that got your panties in such a wad.

I don't hold Moore entirely blameless, but I've forgiven him because he's making up for it at a time when our own politicans are dead quiet on the issue. It was a big risk for him to do what he did, and I love him for it. But he was wrong back then - on this point I agree with julka. Are you going to ignore me too?

[shanti]

82. I'm wondering too

this is about the fourth or fifth time this person has stated how they're putting someone on ignore, and it's usually over small stuff. geez, if you're gonna put someone on ignore, JUST DO IT and quit talking about it (not you)! *smh*

[bitchkitty]

32. Sure -

It's by Richard Dawkins, the "father" of memetics:

"Memes should be regarded as living structures, not just metaphorically but technically. When you plant a fertile meme in my mind, you literally parasitize my brain, turning it into a vehicle for the meme's propagation in just the way that a virus may parasitize the genetic mechanism of a host cell"

[Democat]

35. Moore is on our side, even if some here hate him

We need more left voices in the media and Michael is one of the loudest.

He had made some mistakes, but he seems to be fighting for our side now.

[jody]

37. I don't see any relationship between Moore and Smedley Butler.

Butler was twice awarded the Medal of Honor and became a "True Patriot" when he blew the whistle on the facsists financed by Hearst, du Pont, et al who were plotting to overthrow FDR and put Butler in the White House.

Nothing that Moore has ever done qualifies him to be mentioned in the same breath with Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

[jiacinto]

38. You are so right

But Moore is like a god to these people.

[julka]

42. jesus.......can you two be more literal, or what?

since you're being so exacting, please parse the word 'echoes,'
which, I believe, I used in the header. Moore is certainly no Butler, but what he said on tube today made me think immediately of
Butler's sagacious/prescient analysis of what conrols US foreign/domestic policy.

It's always been/always will be about maintaining/expanding power.

That's what Moore said, in so many words today, decrying the use of the latest generation of cannon fodder in pursuit of territorial hegemony.

It's just a gigantic Risk game to these prix.

and a kudos, Donna, BTW, for that observation on what I've already forgotten in my incipient PSD, but I remember you said something about something that made a lot of sense.

[bitchkitty]

40. In this day and age

of lies and propaganda, Michael's willingness to speak out qualifies him as a hero. Maybe not on the same level as Smedley Butler, but the original message was not comparing the men, but their words.

[jiacinto]

41. Moore is no hero

Sorry he doesn't deserve that title.

[julka]

44. so who does?

that'd be a good thread......who deserves respect in this day and age?

who acts/acted on principle, regardless of personal consequence?

first name that springs to mind is Ellsberg.

had it not been for his case being tossed because of the plumbers, he might STILL be in prison, and he KNEW that.

today he urges people in government positions similar to his to do as he did thirty-odd years ago.

any current candidates?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

61. Kerry 30 years ago. He described Vietnam as endless atrocities

committed by the US military. In front of a congressional committee and scared the shit out of Nixon by telling the truth on him. Wish he'd take the same attitude today. Oh well, guess you can't be an iconclastic hero all your life. UNLESS YOU WERE FRANK ZAPPA.

[julka]

96. he also wussed out during Iran/Contra

he held some very intense hearings into the drug connections......I watched them at the time.

then, all of a sudden.....the dems just caved. they allowed the time limit, for starters, and those two jerks, Rep. Hamilton and the Senator from New England, just let the pugs run roughshod over the hearings

nauseating

[osaMABUSh]

45. Sorry, but Moore is my hero

besides the fact that they he supported Nader what else do you hate about him?

Please don't respond with anything about Nader. I need other reasons not to like him.

If you have seen or heard him you'll know that every chance he gets he reminds whomever is interviewing him of all the crimes of the BFEE. Who else is doing this? Have you seen Bowling for Columbine?

I also like him for silly reasons too: he's kinda frumpy and overweight and always gets a little smile going when he's about to state the obvious (at least to DUers) about * or Cheney or Rummy, etc. He wears college ball caps. He's serious and funny. Check out he's post Oscar press conference http://www.oscars.com/oscarnight/press_video.html (Documentary Feature)

[jiacinto]

47. That is the reason why I don't like him

And frankly he has no right to bitch about Bush when he helped him at the most crucial moments. That's the main reason why I don't take him seriously.

[julka]

49. so. have you ever made a mistaken judgment?

if so, what was it?

if you have, should we ever take anything you say since that admitted misjudgment seriously, regardless of its logical validity?

I mean, look:

Charles Colson

Whittaker Chambers

David Horowitz

Carrot Top

[jiacinto]

50. Yeah I have

But Moore has never admitted that his support for Nader was "mistake judgment". In fact, in Stupid White Men, he says he "would do it again".

[JackDragna]

64. I get so tired of the Nader bashing...

It's not even worth refuting it most of the time, but since this seems to be a prominent and controversial thread, why not one more time? Firstly, major party candidates need to campaign well enough to win their party base. I'm sorry, but Gore losing votes to Nader is Gore's fault..running as a pro-death penalty candidate isn't exactly going to endear you to many Democrats. Furthermore, the ONLY state in which Nader's votes made a significant difference, Florida, would have been inconsequential had all the votes been counted. I don't see Dems giving the International World Worker's Party hell, either, because if those few hundred "leftists" had voted for Gore in Florida, Gore would have won the election even with the screwed-up recount.

[fujiyama]

66. Not just Florida...

Nader cost Gore support in NH as well...Had Gore won just that state, we wouldn't be faced with the mess we are in. Now, it's definetely true that Gore made campaign mistakes, but I can't stand how some people here believe Nader actually is a progressive.

I stopped taking Nader seriously, and started despising him, ever since he gave an interview once claiming that Clinton's lies were impeachable. He also said that if he were on the senate he would have voted to remove Clinton.

Puts Nader in the same book as that drunk British blowhard, Hitchens.

[jiacinto]

72. But see

Nader is like a God to these people here. He is Holy and he can do no wrong. Same thing with Moore. They will go the most absurd lengths to rationalize and defend their hero.

[JackDragna]

88. Just as you'll go to any lengths..

..to pin the blame for the election on any leftist you think is uppity and gets out of line. The election loss was not Nader's fault.

[jiacinto]

101. I never said it was entirely Nader's fault

Be helped Bush and I do hold him responsible for that.

[jiacinto]

71. Nader said he wanted Bush to win

Moore hates Bush. If he truly didn't want Bush in office he would have voted for Gore. And Nader did impact New Hampshire too. He has also said he wanted Bush to win. So yes I do blame Nader and will forever do so.

Source: http://web.outsideonline.com/magazine/200008/200008camp_nader1.html

"When asked if someone put a gun to his head and told him to vote for either Gore or Bush, which he would choose, Nader answered without hesitation: "Bush." Not that he actually thinks the man he calls "Bush Inc." deserves to be elected: "He'll do whatever industry wants done." The rumpled crusader clearly prefers to sink his righteous teeth into Al Gore, however: "He's totally betrayed his 1992 book," Nader says. "It's all rhetoric." Gore "groveled openly" to automakers, charges Nader, who concludes with the sotto voce realpolitik of a ward heeler: "If you want the parties to diverge from one another, have Bush win." "

Also in Stupid White Men Moore says he "would do it again". So yes I do hold Nader and Moore responsible for their role in it.

Moore's bitching about Bush carries zero credibility with me. It is sad that many people refuse to see through Moore for the opportuntist he really is. Then again, for some DUers, defeating Democrats is what makes someone wonderful.

[Forkboy]

52. Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

[julka]

54. if it's a panther

[Pastiche423]

57. Conditioned reflexes?

[julka]

58. acid reflashbackflux

btw, pastiche, if you saw Jerry Lewis on Larry King tonight, can you do a morph of him and dumbo?

as I recall, you have certain skills with the digital alterations.

rerun of his show is coming up in about 24 minutes, I think.

lots of potential there, I promise

[Pastiche423]

59. If you mean the Jerry Lewis

that pretends to care about people w/MD, I'd love to do a photo manip of him and whistle ass.

I don't have cable, but I'm sure I could find a photo of him on the net.

Any special ideas?

[julka]

60. seeing Jerry the way he is today made me think of Bush as an expession

of his emergent/triumphant id, I guess.

If you see a picture of JL, you'll see what I mean: Bush's tightly submerged mania unleashed, rigidly-held expressions sprialling out of control, manic energy unleashed, Tourette-like outbursts emerging at alarming rates.

subtle stuff, see?

[Narraback]

43. War is a Racket

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

It starts with the following:

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

***********

Semper Fi

[julka]

46. fine.....that's the connection Moore's comments made for me1

he didn't say that, but it was so implicitly obvious I thought it was worth mentioning, cause NOBODY in the Achordate Party has come close to making same.

that's why, as bad as that party's offerings are, what choice is there?

It's a holding action, get it? dunno if dems getting in can make a diff or not, but what's the realistic alternative? Can you even come up with ONE name? forget Nader, and I voted for him in 96, hoping some sort of alternate base could become established, but he went cracked, just like they all do.

think "Bananas," underwear on the outside, and all that. you just don't get how intoxicating the mere whiff of power becomes, and how it twists one's psyche. I know. I once ran for chief provost of Guinea Bisseau.


Maybe it's already too late, but it's a GIVEN that this country is toast if those trogs get another four years to complete their mission.

[julka]

48. and, speaking of true heroes........

http://choir.faithweb.com/info.html

[Donna Zen]

55. Christians Patriots

with guns....hmmm?

Isn't that in the Bible?

Oh yeah_

Blessed are those who shoulder their rifles...

'cause they are gonna' blast you in the other cheek!

You remember....comes right after "Blessed are the Defense Contractors..."

Is that a meme?

[julka]

56. aunti meme

check your pm, donna

[Solon]

62. Yes Smedley Butler was a great man

That's why I chose one of his quotes for my sig.
Did you know that he stopped a plot to overthrow President Roosevelt and replace him with a more pro-business authority?
http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/Coup.htm

[BoogieBear]

65. What I love best about DU...

is I can always expect to find a great barroom brawl break out in the middle of just about every thread.

"I went to a fight, and a discussion thread broke out."

And I don't mean that sarcastically--it's what gives this place the rough-and-tumble character that I love.

The Democratic OK Corral :toast:

[Q]

69. Certain posters can always be expected to show up...

...and remind us how much they 'hate' Nader and Moore. It's really the same kind of blind hatred RWingers show towards us.

- But the strangest thing: they never seem to have anything bad to say about the RWingers who cheated and manipulated the 2000 election in George's favor. Nothing about the thousands of voters kept from voting or the ILLEGAL SC decision that put the wrong person in office.

- War IS a racket. The perpetual bitchers might ask themselves why more Democrats don't have the courage to say it.

[Pepperbelly]

74. but you fail to mention that ...

certain OTHER posters always show up to flame anyone who doesn't agree with their far left mindset. It's ironic how no one seems to notice bad behavior from their own camp.

It's almost Republican.

[procopia]

75. Why, why, why didn't he respond

when the interviewer said that there was a "recount," and Bush won the electoral college vote? Why won't anyone explain that the Florida elecoral college vote was GIVEN to Bush because the Florida votes were never fully counted? Moore just shrugged.

[jiacinto]

76. Because Moore could really care less

He had nothing to lose in election 2000. But millions of Americans are suffering because of his support for Nader.

I just can't forgive him for that. He says good things; but, frankly, after his behavior in 2000, I could really care less about what the man has to say. He hates Bush, yet did everything possible to make him president.

Why should I care about Moore and consider him great when his actions helped send this country back years, if not decades?

Take the example of a neighborhood that burns down. A man sees the arsonist lighting the fires and even gives him matches. And then later this man turns around and screams about how bad arson is. That's what I think of Moore.

He's bitching about Bush when he helped him at the most crucial moments. If he really didn't want Bush to be president he would have voted for Gore without question. And he wouldn't have attacked Clinton and Gore in Stupid White Men. He also wouldn't have said that "he would do it again", as he does in his book.

The Moore apologists and worshippers will say that he told Nader supporters in Florida to vote for Gore at the last minute. But by then it was too little too late. For the whole campaign Moore had been attacking Gore and helping Nader. And for that I can't forgive him.

Maybe if Moore actually apologized to Gore and to the country for his actions, or at least showed some regret, which he hasn't yet shown, I would not be as hard on him. But he hasn't. And he seems proud of what he did.

So I don't take anything he says seriously anymore.

[barbaraann]

79. NOTHING was going to stop the BFEE from stealing the 2000

election. NOTHING.

Gore did not lose the election and Nader did not cause him to lose it.

It is a waste of time to point fingers at people who were maniuplated by a criminal conspiracy but not a part of it.

If you look at our experience with the Presidency of Bill Clinton you will see that WAKING PEOPLE UP TO THE BFEE is more important that winning an election, and Michael Moore is waking people up.

If Al Gore had somehow won, the BFEE would have found some way to try to overturn the election--impeachment, recall, convenient death, whatever.

It was a divisive, counterproductive activity to attack Michael Moore. There are other things that need to be done.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

83. whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

It is just unfortunate that so many people still worship this man as if he were Jewish.

[buddhamama]

89. i don't get it either

asking for help here,Carlos. please tell me what this sentence is supposed to mean.

[Forkboy]

90. Maybe he meant Jesus

of course I dont worship him either :shrug:

[buddhamama]

91. i had considered that

if that is the case then he chose poorly because Jewish people don't worship Jesus. and it seems somewhat hypocritical of Carlos to bring 'religion' especially Judaism into the conversation when he often complains of others doing it.

[Forkboy]

92. well,hypocritical and Carlos seem to go together

like peanut butter and jelly.

[buddhamama]

95. yeah

but i like peanut butter and jelly.

his comment was disrespectful too i might add.

anyhow :hi:

[Coffee Coyote]

93. he worships Lieberman

So it was Freudian. :-)

(I love how he accuses people of 'worshipping' someone even if all they did was express mild agreement with the subject - coupled with paranoid accusations of 'the far left of DU' being out to get him - we're talking about a serious need for therapy.)

[buddhamama]

97. the force(s) of the universe

work in mysterious ways.

when i came to DU this morning and saw this thread and Carlos' comments, i was going to respond but couldn't because an unexpected visitor arrived. our friend had stopped by to drop off Bowling for Columbine. he just got it last night, thought it was great and wanted us to watch it too. :-) :hi:


(edited for spelling)

[Coffee Coyote]

98. it's next on my rental list

But first, I must build a golden statue of Moore in my living room, and kiss its butt all day. :o

Let us know what you thought of it!

[buddhamama]

99. lucky for you

Moore has lost some weight. that should save you some money in gold and less ground to cover with the lips :D

will give feedback tomorrow.

[jiacinto]

106. By the way I am supporting Dean

not Lieberman.

[barbaraann]

85. I have personally helped elect Democrats.

And I cannot understand why any Democrat would spend one second posting "Michael Moore is a dishonest fraud" instead of posting that George W. Bush is a dishonest fraud.

There are only so many minutes in a day and I personally spend those minutes on the things that fit in with my priorities and the priorities of Democrats.

Actually, right now I am going to go have some fun.

Later...

[Forkboy]

86. Carlos rarely says anything bad about the Right

on the other hand,he spends a hell of a lot of his time here on DU putting down and trying to marginalize those that he considers to the left of him.

[jiacinto]

105. I do say bad things about the right

You are wrong there.

[Forkboy]

108. Like I said...you RARELY say anything bad about the right

but if I were to search threads from just the last few days I'd find a lot of instances of you insulting people to the left of you.

Would you like me to try?

[jiacinto]

104. I think Moore is a fraud

And I liked him a lot until the 2000 election. It was after then that I started to dislike him.

[uncertainty]

81. Place the blame where it belongs: Katherine Harris/Jeb Bush

Nader and Moore did not illegitimately take voting rights away from anyone. Greg Palast exposes the REAL scandal. See: http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/2002/11/04_Palast.html

[jiacinto]

107. They didn't help either

And I will blame them for their role in what happened. It is just sad how far the Moore/Nader apologists will go to try to absolve of any responsibility of what happened.

[procopia]

84. It isn't just Moore, NO ONE seems willing to point out what happened

Couldn't Bill Press have spoken up? It just seems that the right claims no stolen election, because Bush won the electoral college vote, AND THEY GET AWAY WITH IT EVERY TIME!