What a Barbaric Sad World so many young women live in...

[Ripley]

That so many thousands of American female teenagers 14-19 choose to take such drastic life-risking steps by undergoing breast-enhancement surgeries and other cosmetic surgeries.

I read an article in the Sunday "Parade" about a 19 year old, former starting pitcher in HS, who got implants and now at 21 is severely disabled (even after having them removed 2 years later).

"My parents thought it was a bad, bad idea." Yeah, well, she was old enough to do it, but WHY THE HELL didn't her parents provide her with research data, or encourage her to research the side effects?

"But I put the implants on a payment plan. The surgery cost $4500 and I'm still paying for it!" (Remember this is a 19 year old person...I freaking didn't have a credit card or 200$ in the bank when I was 19.)

She suffers from rheumatoid arthritis (diagnosed at 20) so bad she can't open pill bottles or prepare her own food.

How in the hell has America become so much more misogynist???

I am so sick of hearing these supposed liberals, even here (gee I wonder if there are more 44 or 14 year old males?) supporting teenage girls to get the Pam Anderson look, yet they don't give a shit how it ruins their bodies, minds, emotions or credit reports.

I am seriously appalled by the STUPIDITY of these young women. Where did they come from? Oh yeah, the boob thing can be seen in every magazine, movie, news, music video, celebrity, "hot" talk on boards, etc.

And yes, I do blame them personally to an extent. When I was a teenager we had peer pressure and sex kittens in the movies too. But I had COMMON SENSE. But one thing I didn't have was the overwhelming media saturation that these young women see. So I do wish they could be educated.


So glad we aren't still living in the bad old days. :eyes:

[benburch]

1. She might have had arthritis without the implants.

May people have implants with no such problems...

Not that I am saying that she made a good choice, just that it is very difficult to be sure that the implantation of a couple of bags of sterile saline was the cause of this.

[jdj]

20. Sorry Charlie. Her doctor, which you are not, told her the

implants caused R.A, which is an autoimmune disorder. She got 'em removed, and got a whole lot better.

[benburch]

39. Even her doctor cannot be sure.

That's why product liability claims in such cases are so difficult to win.

And the plastics that are used in the saline bags are used in all manner of other medical implants without such issues.

Mind you, I don't think that surgery like this is a good idea; I like women the way nature made them - I'm pointing out that there is no way to know what caused her condition. Could have been the implants. Could have been the drugs she was given during the implant. Could have been a bug she picked up in the hospital.

[shanti]

43. there have been many many cases like this girl's

check it out. IT WAS THE IMPLANTS.

why can't women just be themselves?:-(

[China_cat]

117. Why can't women just be themselves?????

In most instances I would agree with you. However, my niece developed only one breast. She wore a mastectomy appliance until she was 16 and then had an implant.

She's a beautiful girl who was being called a 'one tit wonder' and would have continued to be considered a freak if she had just let it go and been 'herself'.

[shanti]

121. please

i'm not referring to plastic surgery reconstruction cases. that's a totally different situation.

[knowbody0]

2. carving your body to become most fuckable

the new generation trying to become brittany is amazing.but who knows
mayhaps that is the true path to inner peace

[jdj]

21. I've said it before and I'll say it again

this is what you get when you raise a whole generation on Similac.

A Big Round Titty fetish.

[wickywom]

97. In Myrtle Beach few years ago a radio station held

a beauty contest .. the winner got a free breast agmentation...

Hundreds signed up.

[Spider Jerusalem]

3. Cosmetic surgery is for morons.

Unless you'vbe been hideously disfigured in a terrible accident, there is NO FUCKING REASON to get cosmetic surgery.

[michaelzef]

24. who are you to judge?

alot of us guys love it.

[jdj]

28. so you've had implants?

please post a pic, I've GOT to see this.

[michaelzef]

29. NO

I mean on women ...lol

[shanti]

44. bingo, you win the prize

for jerk of the moment! "doing it for the guys..." *smh*

[MadHound]

77. Let me guess friend, you were raised on a bottle.

And quite frankly, as a male myself, don't go making broad sweeping statements about how "alot of us guys love it". Sorry, but most of us, especially here on this board, aren't that shallow.

What you are advocating is a body shape that nature never intended for women to have, and for you to be selfish enough to desire such a shape tells me worlds about you, and none of it is good.

Tell you what bub, when you're willing to get a dick implant in order to please your partner(assuming you have one:eyes:), then you will have room to speak about what a woman should and should not do to her body. Until then, all you're doing is acting like a clueless, sexist, shallow fool, who makes all of us in the male population look bad.

All you're doing is continuing to be part of the problem. Why don't you do some deep thinking and soul searching in order to become part of the solution.

[maveric]

109. Fake boobs are obvious and plastic looking.

Its a total turnoff to me.

[pelagius]

4. I'm the father of a young girl and the husband of a woman...

...who had to struggle with an eating disorder when she was young.

I get apoplectic when I see posts on DU making fun of a woman's weight or appearance -- yes, even those evil Republican bitches! It's not funny or harmless, since that crap nearly killed my wife and will no doubt scar my little girl in time.

I hold little hope that advertising is going to change soon -- after all, the primary technique of advertising to point out inadequacies you can supposedly fix with the purchase of a product -- but I hope DU denizens might clue in and think before they post thoughtlessly.

We pulled the plug on our TV three years to avoid beaming this type of crap into our home. That's helpful, but we're still swimming in it.

[Kanary]

5. It's fathers like you who make a difference in this madness!

I very much appreciate your words.

Maybe you have spoken up on those ugly threads..... I sure hope so. I haven't seen your name before.

Please, speak up, as we need your voice!

Kanary, a partner in the struggle

[pelagius]

6. I'll be there when I see it. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

61. Wow...

Your wife and daughter are really lucky to have you in their lives! Blessed! I'm glad that they have someone as caring as you! :)

[Eloriel]

75. Oh, my

Such a great message, so thoroughly ruined by this:

I get apoplectic when I see posts on DU making fun of a woman's weight or appearance -- yes, even those evil Republican bitches!

Why on earth would you contaminate your own pro-woman message by using a sexist epithet? Would the sentence not have been every bit as powerful by simply saying "those evil Republican WOMEN?"

You can't be FOR women while you are also AGAINST women. It just doesn't work. If you validate calling ANY woman "bitch" or any of a number of ugly, sexist and often vulgar names, you simultaneously give others permission to call YOUR wife and daughter the same things when they don't meet others' (usually unrealistic) expectations about how they behave.

[pelagius]

79. I should have put some sort of sarcasm indicator...

...on that part of the post. I was making a withering comment about how we feel free to deningrate our opponents in the worst possible terms, yet consider ourselves enlightened.

[Eloriel]

86. Okay, I'll take your word for that

And count you as one of the few -- too few -- men at DU who "get it." Like Kanary, I hope you'll speak up much more often. Just as vets and active military hold more credibility on the issue of this farkin' war, men at DU are sorely needed to help enlighten their brothers. Some of us women get a little weary of the (same ole, same ole) fight at times and could use some help from those who ARE "enlightened."

[pelagius]

88. I'm not really all that!

"Okay, I'll take your word for that"

I think my history of posting around here will back up my word, as well. Denigrating language is not my style, though I do mild things like "Repug" and so forth.

And, it's not that I'm so enlightened or a wonderful feminist that I avoid such language. I was simply raised to have good manners.
:-)

[wellstone dem]

123. God bless you

as a woman who once struggled with an eating disorder who finally realized that feeling healthy was so much better than being thin, and as the mother of a 16 year old young woman: God bless you.

[puddycat]

7. Our society is not tolerant towards different body-types

There is lots of pressure to conform and to look and act the same--like Stepford wives. There is discrimination against natural human emotions--look at what happened to Howard Dean just because he gave a spirited yell!!! We can't have variables in emotion!!! We can't have variables in body-type! So the surgeons cut our flesh and the psychologists medicate, all in the name of conformity. Young people are killing themselves over the despair of not fitting the mold when they should be celebrating their uniqueness!

Our corporate society tells us to be a zombie...think alike...walk the walk and don't go outside the lines. Its all part of this capitalist culture. Our lives are dictated to us by big corporations, whether they be media, manufacturers or big medicine. Oh, and today, add to that the big corporate world of organized right-wing Christianity.

[skygazer]

8. Seems like with every step forward there are three steps back

Women are now are able to work outside the home, do something besides be barefoot and pregnant yet we feel the cultural pressure to have the "perfect" body.

I don't understand it. I had neck surgery in January - had to. It was a herniated and arthritic disk and it was excruciatingly painful. Even so, I thought long and hard about the reality of being knocked out and cut open.

Dont' these people realize that surgery is potentially life threatening? It shouldn't be treated in so cavalier a manner. Yet we have shows like "The Swan" and that type of drivel.

It truly is sad.

[DuctapeFatwa]

9. In the east, a woman's greatest value is as a producer of sons

In the west, a woman's greatest value is as an object of sexual desire.

Walking barefoot is not recommended anywhere.

[Cleita]

11. So what happens if you don't produce sons or even children?

Oh yes, I forgot your husband divorces you and takes another more fertile wife, like what happened to a Persian friend of mine. Of course no other man wanted to marry her afterwards either.

[DuctapeFatwa]

12. I regret that you cannot blame this on Islam

I understand that it is very fashionable to do so, and actually, you probably can. Very few westerners have any idea about what is culture and what is religion in eastern countries, whether the population there is mostly Muslim or not.

It is very unlikely that anyone will call you on it, and even less likely that anyone will suggest that women have value unrelated to either sexual allure or reproductive capacity.

[Cleita]

14. I haven't blamed anything on Islam as you haven't.

You said ME culture and that is the problem. I don't doubt that Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians have the same backwards mentality when it comes to women as well. What I do object to is regarding women as having no more value than as incubators. We are human beings with as much right to demand that we be valued for whom we are not as just mothers.

I realize too that our culture has a long way to go in this regard too, but instead of giving these abuses passive acceptance because of culture, it's time to start moving for real change in how women are viewed treated worldwide.

[DuctapeFatwa]

19. LOL you did not mention Islam, nor did I mention the ME

I said "eastern" culture. I also said that walking barefoot is not recommended.

I do not think that the way to progress in east or west, is for each side to claim that their way of oppressing women is superior, or that the other side's is "worse," although that does seem to be the strategy of choice.

It is understandable.

Oppressing women, however one prefers it done, is the single most effective method of keeping a society under control known to man.

[Cleita]

25. I hope this isn't how you meant this?

It is understandable.

Oppressing women, however one prefers it done, is the single most effective method of keeping a society under control known to man.

Please clarify what you are saying here before I step in to slap you down to size.

[Ripley]

27. I'm gonna give him the benefit of a doubt...

and say he meant that tongue in cheek.

But I could be wrong.

[DuctapeFatwa]

34. Can you name a more effective way?

Think about it. Literate mothers teach their children to read. Economically empowered women are more likely to spend their earnings on things that will benefit those children, and their community.

This is bad news for the king. He prefers to see monies earned spent to increase his wealth.

Women who have control over their own bodies are less likely to need either king or lord, even for a brief time. More bad news for the king.

With education, economic empowerment, and control over her reproductive capability, the only thing men can do that women can't is write their names in the snow with pipi.

Why are you surprised that both east and west, male and female, are so conditioned to fight to prevent this danger to the king that they will argue which way women should be oppressed? but woe unto he who suggests that they should not be oppressed at all!

Even to the point of threatening to slap people on message boards. Now that is some conditioning!

[Cleita]

35. You weren't very clear on what you meant.

Now that you have explained I don't need to put you in your place after all.

[DuctapeFatwa]

48. Well let me be even more clear

In the first place, if the husband of your friend from Persia dumped her because she couldn't have children, she should consider herself fortunate to have been spared a lifetime of misery.

The idea that "now no other man will marry her" is full of all kinds of assumptions, not the least of which is the notion that if she does not get married, well, good-night Susie, her life is just over.

Any man who loves a woman for who she is will not give a flying falafel if she has a large, small, or absent bosom, and anybody who wants to raise children will be pleased to know there are literally millions of them currently residing on earth, who do not have parents and would benefit greatly from having some.

I will not even go into the absurd idea perpetuated by just about every religion and longitude you can name that the purpose of marriage is to either reproduce or raise children.

What goes down in the backwaters of Pascagoula, Puebla or Pashtunistan notwithstanding, there are many many people in, around and far from those places, of every faith tradition that exists and a few that are being invented as we speak, who choose to share their lives for no other reason than that they love each other, whether or not either or both of them have bosoms, functioning ovaries or aspirations of parenthood.

That is the fundamental, natural aspect of human beings that "culture" seeks to thwart. Methodology and nomenclature of same are secondary.

[Cleita]

54. Even though this was in America, my friend was

a bartered bride or in other words the marriage was arranged by hers and his parents. When it was discovered she couldn't have children, he divorced her and moved on. No man in her social group had a thought about her as being marriageable anymore.

She did marry a European American widower with children eventually, so there is a sort of happy ending. I worked in the same office with her at the time of her divorce and went through the whole break-up of her marriage emotional roller coaster while we were at work.

But, it was the cultural thing that struck me more than anything, and the fact that her feelings meant nothing to anyone because she was a woman and needed to focus on doing what was customary, not rock the boat etc.. Incidentally, she was not Muslim but Bahai.

[DuctapeFatwa]

58. And she could have been Hindu, or Buddhist or Jewish or Christian

and had the same experience.

Ironically, it is women themselves, especially in communities where this kind of thing is prevalent, who do the lion's share of preserving culture and passing it along to the next generation.

Just as a hypothetical, what do you suppose would have happened if the west, who had no problem with the plight of women in Pashtunistan since before Romulus and Remus learned to bark, but developed a sudden case of acute pipeline-induced distress over 10 thousand year old customs in the area, a condition which has proved remarkably short-lived, but just suppose that one tenth of the money that has been spent on trying to establish a secure corridor for that pipeline had been spent arming rural Afghan women.

[Cleita]

59. It will take a few brave ones to make change and start a.

real women's independence movement. I was always impressed with the fact that a certain group of Christian women known as nuns managed to become independent of men. You see I was raised by these women in convent school most of my early life. Sure they wore black clothes and veils, but they also broke the barriers that women had in our societies past by becoming educators, medical professionals scientists and artists.

By refusing to marry and have children they answered to no man, well except maybe the Bishop, but by and large the male part of the clergy didn't care what they did as long as they supported themselves. So it's going to take a group of some brave women to break away from the dependence women have on men to change the situation first on a small scale and then eventually world wide.

[Eloriel]

78. It's called "internalized oppression"

Ironically, it is women themselves, especially in communities where this kind of thing is prevalent, who do the lion's share of preserving culture and passing it along to the next generation.

We see plenty of it right here at DU as well -- women so conditioned by their misogynist culture that they believe the lies told about them are true.

The result is that there either ARE no role models or worldviews or paradigms of how things could be different for them as women and how they themselves can be different, or even where there are, there's no map of how to get to a different place, and often no will.

Members of all oppressed groups share some forms of internalized oppression and for the most part it's totally inappropriate to slam them for it.

I'll give you an example. In the early 60s, when I was in high school, I gave up ideas of what would have been my career goal had I had full choice in the matter (like men have) because women weren't "allowed" into that profession. That was bad enough, worse was the fact that it didn't occur to me that those discrimantory practices could be challenged or that I and other women had the right to challenge conditions that prevented us from full expression of our talents and interests, our full personhood. Fortunately, the Women's Movement started not long after and eventually we women challenged a great deal about this society. And, we got "just enough" to mollify us and make us happier and more able to function freely in the world than we had been, but NOT enough to give us full equality -- as can be witnessed right here at DU every single day.

[DuctapeFatwa]

102. I did not suggest bashing them. In a dramatic departure from my

customary attempts to incite non-violence, I suggested pondering what would happen if you gave them guns.

[Cleita]

103. Besides that in these cultures, if women don't do these things

they incur the wrath of the males in charge and in many societies have no other recourse. I remember reading about an American woman married to a man from an North African country whom she met while at an American university. After they both graduated, she moved to her husband's country and had a child with him. When she started becoming disenchanted with her station in life, she tried to leave.

So what did her husband's family do? They locked her and the child in a room and starved both of them. They would bring in a little bit of food for both of them, like enough for one person only every few days. They knew of course that she would give the food to the child. You see there are no laws in those countries to prevent this kind of abuse.

She finally pretended to accept her place and was brought out of her prison. She was eventually able to contact her parents, who were able to arrange for her and her child to be "kidnapped" and taken out of the country and brought back to the USA. So women in these countries have nothing to fall back on if they don't perpetrate these traditions. So many of them have been conditioned throughout life to be fearful and docile. Many of these cultures don't even feel it's necessary for the women to be literate, so they are completely dependent on their male relatives.

[sadiesworld]

82. "acute pipeline-induced distress"

Perfect. :toast:

[jdj]

23. YES I DID go back and re-read your post for the word "Islam"

not there.

[shanti]

70. with four sons

i should've been born in the east :eyes:

[Cleita]

10. I think we need to revive that old fashion of the 1920's,

flat chests. When women gained suffrage during the flapper era, they bound their breasts to look boyish, cut their hair into bobs and raised their hems above their knees. (Scandalous). The fashion focus was on their legs then, and not their boobs. I think it's time to revive this fashion.

Part of the problem is that everywhere you turn, young girls are being bombarded with images of actresses, entertainers and models with big chests and cleavage. Even the actresses with normal breasts acknowledge that the wardrobe people enhance them with plastic falsies and push up bras.

Personally, as a person, who is well-endowed, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go through life with big boobs. They are only attractive without a bra when you are fairly young. They aren't comfortable really and it gets worse as you get older. Many clothes don't look good on big breasted women either. They give you a sort of matronly look and I know that's not what most women have in mind.

[knowbody0]

13. in korea

women bind their "too large" breasts.it is considered "peasant"like

[Cleita]

15. I guess I'm one of those peasants.

My point is we shouldn't focus so much on body parts. If we shift our focus from breasts to another part of the anatomy, I think it would break this crazy obsession Western men have on breasts.

[Ripley]

18. No, that will not work.

I understand what you are saying Cleita, but it really isn't about the boobs. The breast enhancements are not about the breasts. They are about how our society has made girls feel compelled to physically mutilate their bodies in order to fit in.

It could be big butts~ then they'd all get fat vacuumed in reverse into their tushes. Oh wait! I remember there were jeans sold with butts in them! See? It could happen.

The problem is the minds of these young women. What are their parents thinking? Yes, I know that sounds old fashioned and authoritative to some. But damn, we ain't talking about a kid piercing their ears or navel. We are talking about girls going under anesthesia in order to look "good in a bikini."

[Cleita]

22. I know what you mean, but a lot of this began with fashion.

Change the fashion and change the importance of that body part. I certainly agree with you on what are their parents thinking? It seems to me also that girls so young shouldn't be able to get credit so easily or maybe the surgeons involved should be regulated somehow. It is a tragedy. That's for certain.

[Susang]

66. Where?

When I lived in Seoul, plastic surgery, including breast implants, was all the rage. The women there also undergo excrutiating leg stretching surgeries to become taller, as well as eyelid surgery to make the eye appear more round. Anything to look more western.

[benburch]

40. Amen...

An ex-lover of mine who was born with FFF breasts (no kidding) dreams of the day she can get a breast reduction. She gets horrible backaches.

[loyalsister]

71. It's up to the women

You are right! If there is to be a change in this, women are going to have to drive it. The male dominated society is not about to shift this focus. Currently it's the advertising, and entertainment arenas that emphasize boobs.
Your suggestion to use fashion to drive change is excellent. Fashion influences both. Men are not going to hand this over. It's up to us, and it's going to have to be a necessary change. If advertising and entertainment are to reflect reality they will have to use the current fashions.

[Uzybone]

114. Well said

men will be attracted to what we are attracted to. There isnt a switch that can be flicked off that will make western men suddenly stop loving full breasts. The women have to lead on this.

[indigobusiness]

16. Fake ain't sexy

...what a phony world.

[expatriate]

17. having had a partial mastectomy

some years back, it boggles me that anyone would undergo the post-operative pain of breast surgery for cosmetic reasons only. I was ever so thankful that I had resisted all my mother's urging to have a breast implant (in those days, silicon filled) done on my smaller side.

There is an addled notion that having breast augmentation will "make you feel better about yourself". No, you'll have bags of saline solution in your chest wall, and still have all the emotional/mental problems that made you feel bad about yourself in the first place.

The same argument is given for radical methods of attaining weight loss - weight loss surgery and various unsafe dieting fads. Lots of people have been surprised to find that they still have the same old problems when they get skinny, with the exception of being able to buy clothes off the rack more easily.

[jdj]

26. well, since beauty is an invisible caste system, it's

not just cosmetic, it is economic, especially for young women.

Not to mention the rush of power one feels as a result of being sexually attractive.

Sexual power is an amazing tool for women to wield, and lucrative too, and in the U.S. that means wearing grapefruits in your armpits.

People aren't mentioning either that the Bush admin allowed the FDA to put silicone implants back on the market about a year ago, and these are notorious for causing autoimmune disorders.

[Ripley]

31. Thanks for bringing that up!

There are notorious probs with silicone, yet it never makes the news...well, except for my referenced story which is under a department called something like "younger voices." I don't normally read it, because I don't have kids. But this one stuck out.

I think there are major forces in our society (political, religious and cultural) that are pushing women back. They are doing it in the ways they always have..."we are protecting you" "you are beautiful" blahblahblabiddityblah.

[expatriate]

33. I was horrified to find that silicone implants

were back on the market. I have autoimmune disease, caused by a severe virus I contracted in the 1970's. It's hell. I never have a well day; I don't know what it is any more to have a moment without pain.

The idea of even risking such an illness for the sake of having bigger boobs is just mind-boggling, as is a government which will allow implants that have been proven to cause such illness.

[Ripley]

37. I hope you can find better treatment, expatriate.

Have you tried acupuncture or herbal remedies?

Thank you for posting your story...I posted this because I find it shocking what girls are doing.

Be well and welcome to DU... :) We tend to be a resourceful bunch so I feel certain you can find someone else here with your condition who can give you helpful advice!

[expatriate]

111. Ripley, thank you for your concern

I have found quite a bit of help since leaving the US medical system, where my condition, fibromyalgia/CFS, complicated by PCOS and insulin resistance was still being considered "psychosomatic" just a few years ago. Thankfully, it is taken seriously in other places! I do get some relief from mineral supplementation, diet and herbal remedies as well as PT and careful exercise. I'm used to this by now - I've had it since I was eleven, and I'm 45 next week. It was just such a relief to find some doctors who didn't tell me it was "all in my head" or that I was a malingerer!

I find it shocking that such young girls are doing this as well. Heck, they're not even finished growing! What if, after their augmentation surgery, they have more breast development? Lots of girls I knew in high school ended up bigger than they were when they were 14!

[DrWeird]

41. According to the National Academy of Science's Institute of Medicine...

which looked into the controversy for the FDA, a full review of all the published data showed that no ill systemic health problems, such as autoimmune diseases, were caused by silicone breast implants.

[Ripley]

42. Oh, it's YOU.

Ho hum, the same person who shows up in all threads like this to tell us his Big Daddy Scientific Smarter Than Women Knowledge.

Give me a link to that study.

Then tell me how you agree with all those same Institute's studies on things like Agent Orange, or Depleted Uranium disease? Or hey, how about how the FDA approved Vioxx?

I notice how you decided not to comment on the cultural aspect, but instead chose to side with the establishment on this one. :eyes:

Read the fine print on Viagra lately dude?

[DrWeird]

47. "Big Daddy Scientific," that's great.

I was thinking of changing the name to "Thunderlips: The Ultimate Male," but that will do just fine. I am, after all, a scientist. And there's an awful lot of pseudoscientific nonsense around this board.

But anywho... I read it hear:

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/breastimplants/handbook2004/timeline.html

an FDA site, with additional links to the full reports if I read it right.

"Then tell me how you agree with all those same Institute's studies on things like Agent Orange, or Depleted Uranium."

If I'm not mistaken, the main active chemical in Agent Orange is fairly innocuous, it's toxic side products made from sloppy manufacturing and purification that cause the ill health effects. As far as I'm aware, the FDA has not approved human consumption of Agent Orange or surgical implantation of Depleted Uranium.

"Or hey, how about how the FDA approved Vioxx?"

Doesn't really help your argument, does it? After all, when Vioxx showed harmful effects that could have gone unnoticed during clinical trials, the drugs were taken off the market. The FDA called for a moratorium on breast implants as well, and after an extensive and thorough investigation they determined it wasn't the major health hazard feared when it was taken off the market.

"I notice how you decided not to comment on the cultural aspect, but instead chose to side with the establishment on this one."

Having nothing to contribute on the cultural aspect of the topic that hasn't already been said, I decided to point out an inconsistency with the science.

[Ripley]

51. Typical disrupting shit.

Why are you still here? You sidestepped AO and DU pretty clumsily.

Just because you THINK you are a doctor, doesn't make it SO.

[DrWeird]

52. Who's disrupting?

Here's how it looks from my POV:

Poster 1: European jews face more antisemitism in Europe today than they have since the concentration camps were liberated in 1955.

Poster 2: Actually, that was 1945.

Poster 1: Oh, look, it's the Great Aryan Superman come to make us filthy Jews look stupid. Where'd you read that? Mein Kampf?

Poster 2: Well, it's right there in my Abridged History of World War II. Here's a link, if you're interested.

Poster 1: HOW DARE YOU!

[Ripley]

53. Got a problem in another thread huh? Tell Mods...

Not me.

[DrWeird]

56. I haven't got a problem at all.

In fact I think I'm being quite civil.

[Cheswick2.0]

46. they are lying

women know better.

15 years ago I was told my tachachardia was caused by stress and "all in my head". I knew they were wrong.
Several years ago I had ablation to zap the extra nerve endings in my heart. I had an extra loop of them. I have not had a bought of 215 BPM since the operation.

[Susang]

68. While I respect the scientific method

The fact is, that studies of this nature have often been proven incorrect or inadequate upon further study, particularly when relating to women. So, when referring to these studies, it is probably best to state, as far as current research shows, rather than making such a blanket statement based on the limited research that exists thus far.

For instance, MS when first hypothesised, was thought to be an imaginary (or "hysterical" if you will) illness, much like you are implying this condition is, as were migraines, lupus, IBS, PMS, and Lyme disease (and many others too numerous to mention). The problem is, autoimmune disorders mimic so many other conditions that it is incredibly difficult to determine when they first manifest.

Usually, by the time the symptoms are noticed, the patient has already been to several doctors in search of a diagnosis and been told that nothing is wrong with her, she is either stressed out or in need of psychiatric help. By the time the person gets the diagnosis, usually years have gone by, making it nearly impossible to remember what event, substance or initial illness may have triggered it.

Auto-immune diseases suck and it's not as simple to find the cause as you think. And before you ask, no, I did not get mine from breast implants. ;-)

[bloom]

63. I think it is an illusion and overrated

My friend with the flattest chest has done the best for herself - as far as being promoted in the company she worked for - and utlimate economic success.

Of course - it was a female owned company and that may have been what made all the difference.

[Eloriel]

81. What a grotesque comment

I don't even know where to start.

First of all, how thoroughly, appallingly sexist for you to link ANY woman's advancement in ANY company with anything whatsoever to do with her body.

Second, I can assure you, most women are not concerned about other women's breasts nor feel in the least competitive about them. But how like a man, to assume that his own thoroughly sexist and twisted attitudes (and fantasies?) are shared by the other half of the human race. But not to worry, you're in good company. I hear Bill O'Reilly has the same problem.

[bloom]

85. I thought that I was doing the opposite

I was responding to this:


"well, since beauty is an invisible caste system, it's

not just cosmetic, it is economic, especially for young women.

Not to mention the rush of power one feels as a result of being sexually attractive.

Sexual power is an amazing tool for women to wield, and lucrative too, and in the U.S. that means wearing grapefruits in your armpits."



----> I thought I was basically trying to discredit the notion that women benfit or not based on the size of their breasts.

I don't see why it is such a problem to think that perhaps a woman might do better in a non-sexist non-male environment.

But don't let me stop you from your outrage - which you seem to be enjoying.

[Eloriel]

87. You missed

By a mile, or a thousand.

[loudestchick]

32. where do you reside?

My spouse and I are considering a move to New Zealand...that'd make us ex-pats in the land of the kiwi.:hi:

[expatriate]

110. Sorry for the lateness of my reply

Time difference and all!

I'm in Australia. I have yet to visit New Zealand, but it's on my list of "gotta do". I know quite a few Americans who are moving there.

There is a certain "mind your own business" attitude in Australia, and I believe, in En Zed, that is very refreshing. There's a lot more body acceptance too!

[loudestchick]

30. More women should breastfeed and publicly...

Maybe if we switch our view of the female body from merely "playground" to functional we can change these destructive attitudes.

I had a reduction 13 months ago...I can't imagine going thru a surgery like that for purely cosmetic reasons...it boggles the mind!

[Pithlet]

72. Not only that

But it changes your own perception of your breasts as well. After a few months of breastfeeding, they become a feeding tool, and nothing more. I can remember when I shocked and thrilled a couple of teenage boys when I went to breastfeed my baby in public, and was momentarily oblivious that I wasn't in the privacy of my own home, and just whipped that thing out, and hefted it in my hand to determine how full it was. They were shocked! I didn't even realize they were within eye site until I heard the giggles.

[bleedingheart]

36. because they have no self esteem

sorry but when you think new boobs will make life better that is just a sign your parents didn't do a good job instilling a sense of self esteem....

having had surgery for non cosmetic reasons I can't imagine doing it for something like bigger breasts...

[Jacobin]

38. Plastic Tits, Plastic Brains

Sorry. I'm prejudiced. I actually like small breasts more than the Guernsey Milk Cow version, so WTF.


I think women are foolish for trying to pump up their chests with plastic and I think (some, not all) of the men who encourage it are nitwits.

Women, being smarter than men, should just SAY NO.

[Sleepless In NY]

45. At least they can vote, and thats all I care about.

Could care less what they do with their breasts.

[Heyo]

49. My major issue with this is...

...(and I am a guy, so it's a guys POV)..

Ladies, you are beautiful just the way you are. No need to go and have a big mass of silicone sewn into your breasts. Me personally, I'll take natural beauty over augmented breasts any day.

TO be quite frank, breast implants are a total turnoff to me on so many levels. First of all, in the intimate sense.. it's a turn-off that there is this artificial foreign substance under there changing the shape of the breast. Who in the hell came up with the idea that that is sexy. Second, as for the person she is, ("she" being any hypothetical potential suitor with implants) it is a turn-off for me that she is the type of person who feels the need to actually go have surgery, have herself cut open and silicone inserted into he breasts to make them bigger to make herself "more beautiful"... it's a little Frankenstein-ish, IMO, and makes me worry for them they may have self esteem issues. (no offense to any women with implants, besides, if you do have them I am more worried about your welfare than I am out to judge anyone)

It's unfortunate, there must be a lot of really shallow guys out there because of how popular this is.

Natural beauty is where it's at, ladies, don't mess with perfection.

This is just my opinion.

Heyo

[JPace]

50. Silicone breast implants are bad things....

and they have never been FDA approved.
There are a lot of sick women out there because
of them.

Look at the ingredients that make up implants here:
http://www.silicone-review.gov.uk/toxicity/index.htm

A lot of information here:
http://www.humanticsfoundation.com/daily.htm

Look at the internal Dow (manufacturers) memo's that
prove they knew the implants were making women sick.
They are listed on "Where There's Smoke There's Fire"
http://www.info-implants.com/

[greekspeak]

55. Patriarchal society in general is misogynistic

Foot binding. Birkas. Corsets. Neck rings. Female genital mutilation. The Ancient greeks made women virtual prisoners in their homes. The Romans denied a multitude of basic civil rights to women. Ancient semitic cultures saw women as a piece of chattle. Societies around the world are misogynistic, and I find it disgusting. It is time to stop this crap.

America, October 18, 2004, is as depraved as it ever was. Women should be barefoot and pregnant. They belong in the kitchen. They should be children for life. They should vote as hubby-master says. Women are smacked around and otherwise abused in every county in every state. That womb belongs to men who want to tell you what to do with it. Equal pay? HA. Equal rights? Surely you jest. And people like Shrub and his minions want to keep it this way, and roll back the clock when possible.

[Porcupine]

65. "Patriarchy" binds the MEN MORE HARSHLY....

than the women. What are the most dangerous jobs? Fishing, mining, oil and chemical workers and agricultural workers. Firemen rarely live to the ripe old age of 65 much less 70. These are all jobs almost exclusively occupied by MEN and it kills them in huge numbers.

Try to live an "alternative lifestyle" as a man. I did, my plain as a bowl of rice wife divorced me because I couldn't bring home an income that pleased her. Never mind I had medical conditions which left me sick and dizzy and were misdiagnosed. Too bad I loved her and my daughters; no cash, no marriage, no family.

Sorry, no sympathy ladies. Freedom for women to change and choose roles has yet to extend to the male half of the equation. Time to take a dose of reality. Most couples require sexual attraction to get started. Men want fantastic bodies, women want men who are "financially secure."

[Ripley]

74. What sexist drivel.

Get a clue bud. Women also do all those jobs you listed and there even happen to be female soldiers getting maimed and killed in Iraq. Wake up little Snoozy, it's 2004, not 1954.

Nice of you to refer to your wife as "plain as a bowl of rice" yet accuse her of leaving you because you didn't make enough money to "please her."

And what exactly are you trying to say about how men don't have freedom to choose roles? I know a few stay-at-home Dads. And how about all those men who love to cook, sew and decorate the home? Are they suppressed, or do they have their own fricking TV shows??????

This thread is not about sexual attraction. This is about our society condoning cosmetic surgery for immature, not even fully developed GIRLS for one purpose only. To look more sexy. Is there an epidemic of boys getting penis enlargement surgeries that I am unaware of? Are young men told they should go ahead and do that because it will help their self-esteem?

Your final sentence is the most black and white horse shit I've ever read on DU. Not all men demand a botoxed, liposucted, facelifted, butt-tucked, screaming DD breasts, 6-pack abbed Barbie doll and Not all women demand a Wall Street Ken doll, or even that he make more than she does.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

76. Bullshit.

Men choose the roles. When females were just trying to enter those dangerous jobs you are referring to, who are the ones that tried to prevent them from doing so? Men. Men still ridicule women who try and enter professions like firefighter, police officer or professional soldier. Women by and large don't make fun of men being "stay at home" dads either. I've never met a woman that didn't appreciate it. The ridicule comes from men.

[Eloriel]

90. Look, you're right, but here's what you're missing.

That is, you're right except when you say "MORE harshly." Trying to figure out who has it worst under patriarchy is a fools game, and one that serves patriarchy very, very well.

Patriarchy is the REAL problem at the heart of everything those of us on the Left complain about and would like to see fixed: racism, sexism, homophobia, poverty, globalization, healthcare, concentration of wealth and power, wars and war profiteering, on and on and on. Even the BFEE. Every single one of these and more can be traced directly back to a patriarchal system with its insistance on the perverted Golden Rule: he who has the gold makes the rules, and its insistance and need for some people who are "one up" and others who are "one or more down" in power and influence.

Patriarchy THRIVES on infighting among its oppressed classes and groups. We've all noticed that in the political arena, but it's true throughout the whole of society as well. Patriarchy in fact could not exist were it not for the fact that we are all pitted against one another and stay that way far too easily.

When you generalize your anger/hatred for your ex-wife to ALL women, and find yourself resentful about YOUR lot in life as a man in a patriarchal (and I do agree that men are patriarchy's slaves as well) while ignoring the reality of all the others also victimized, you are misdirecting your anger and blame entirely. You've correctly identified the culprit (patriarchy) and then blithely rushed straight through your insight to go directly to where patriarchy wants you to go, the path of least resistance, which is to blame another group also victimized and oppressed by patriarchy.

We've got to get smarter about this. If patriarchy is the problem (and it is), then we've got to work TOGETHER to fight patriarchy, and stop fighting amongst ourselves. It does none of us (including you) no good to blame women, or to blame the poor, or immigrants, or the poor troops caught up in this unjust war, or any OTHER group -- we have to see ourselves as common foot soldiers in the bigger war, against patriarchy.

[greekspeak]

94. Dearheart, I do live an "alternative lifestyle as a man."

I have the audacity to be gay. Many, most even, patriarchal societies see homosexual men as liminal creatures. In America, they are sin monkeys. In ancient Greece, which most people think was a man on man glory fest, there were strict social boundaries within which homosexuals could function. Many semetic societies prescribed death for men who had sex with men. Gay men, especially in this culture, are basically women with penises.

I do agree that the irony of patriarchal society is that the men themselves are forced to live within very limited social boundaries. But the dominant group in society generally enjoys the bounties of life because they construct the society's boundaries, or are the maintainers of said boundaries. These boundaries are quite more harsh and unforgiving than society's leaders. Especially in ancient and developing societies, there were a handful of elites (priests, rulers, etc.), and then everyone else. The role of "Everyone Else" was to maintain the elite's lifestyle. Sure there were-and are-some pretty strict social boundaries on the elites. But they were-and are-put in place to maintain the status quo.

[VLC98]

57. I read that article.

You didn't mention what I thought was the most shocking part of it...she stated that lots of her peers were receiving plastic surgery as High School graduation gifts! My daughter is in 11th grade and I would not dream of letting her have surgery, let alone encourage & pay for it. What's on the inside is more important to people that matter.

[Ripley]

60. I guess I couldn't fit all the horror in.

Yep, I remember that part...her peers received "breast implants" as graduation gifts. WTF?

If these kids live at home, it clearly is, whether you want to hear this or not...the parent's fault! And frankly, I have seen one mother and child BE jobs represented at my gym. Plastic rich toys of a wealthy oil guy. They don't have enough IQ between them to light a Bic lighter.

[porphyrian]

62. It's not really more misogynist, it's just somewhat differently so.

Of course, some of it is still the same. What you are seeing is the corporatization of America, where we are meant to be Good Consumers. It isn't personal, and it isn't humane. Teenage girls are extremely suseptible to the advertising of the beauty/fashion industrial complex, and generate millions for stock holders who don't give a fuck about your kids. Ultimately, it is this Goliath you have to contend with.

[bloom]

64. Branding and Marketing have taken over

Pleasure / Arousal / Dominance


It's what sells.



I think people can (and should) make a conscious effort to resist.

Buy local. Buy/eat out from small business instead of chains.

Society will only change if enough people want it.

Too many people benefit from it the way it is.

[Swede]

67. I think women are ok the way they are born.

I know a couple of women that breast fed and they got implants. That's ok too.

[undergroundpanther]

69. To me

I am getting a mastectomy because I hate my boobs.I am trans-gender.
I hate this patriarchal society and I will tell off any male who oogles and takes liberties with his eyes at my expense.I warn him to stop,if he continues he gets an earful.I let the little visual rapist know what he is doing is not respectful to me as a person.I don't care if some insensitive selfish snot blubbers about "thin skin"..at least I can feel when some creep is trying to violate my autonomy, redefine my self hood and objectify me for his greedy overblown self directed sex drive.I am not here to please anyone or give them I candy when I do not choose to give it to them..I care for those whom I respect because they've earned my respect,trust is earned by demonstrating integrity in an equal relationship.Men in this culture don't always value relationships so they don't think they have to demonstrate much integrity.or emotional maturity,or empathy or respect to get a woman or man...If any person tries to get what they have not earned,from me... they are treated like any other thief,and my assessment of them ain't always pleasing to the ego of narcissistic males and their enabling trophy wives.
I don't care what anyone in this society thinks about how I handle my issues. This culture is sick as shit in the collective head so it's individual's opinions of how I should think,feel act or be are sick and control motivated,therefore invalid, too.

[TahitiNut]

73. "Parade"??? (sheesh) Might as well watch Faux News.

It's a weekly dose of right-wing Kool-Aid. Detestible piece of trash.

[JHB]

80. I'm not getting how this is misogyny...

Greed and irresponsibility on the part of the medical profession, that part's clear as day, but misogyny? How does that enter in to it?

[Eloriel]

84. Maybe this will help

Do you know that in ancient China, the feet of little girls were bound, tightly and for years, so that they could not grow to their normal size -- because small feet were so attractive and sexy, you see! This practice, probably for the upper class only, left women literally crippled and unable to walk or care for themselves properly, slaves to the "fashion" of small feet.

Do you think that practice is misogynistic, hating how Nature made the female form so much that they crippled the females of the culture in order to force them into some totally unnatural physical condition that was "more" attractive?

What, then, is the difference (other than degree) of maiming women and putting their very lives at risk for breast augmentation?

Or, for that matter, high heels?

[JHB]

89. One big difference is...

...the girls had no choice in the matter.

I still don't understand how this qualifies as "misogyny" rather than "damnfool stupid things people do to proove their virility/desireablity/fit-in-ability/whatever to some unworthy person or group".

[Eloriel]

91. Well, all I can say is

people rarely manage to see what they don't want to see.

:shrug:

[JHB]

93. Likewise...

..If someone is bound and determined to see something, they probably will.

[ProfessorGAC]

95. Don't Think That's Fair Eloriel

I thought it was a fair question. There's a difference between misogyny and the issue being discussed here. There are women who are plastic surgeons. Are they misogynysts, too?

The issue here is one of ELECTIVE surgery to improve one's appearance. I would say that any condemnation of this behavior must start with (but not necessarily excluding others) with the woman who made the choice to have unnecessary surgery. The risks are just too high to have surgery that one doesn't really need.

Men have elective cosmetic surgery too! No misogyny there, right? Yet, i feel the same about those men as i do about women having unwarranted operations.

I wouldn't outlaw it, but i have a hard time seeing how we condemn society for making available a procedure some people foolishly choose. Medical community greed? Sure. Unrealistic presentations of the "normal" person. Absolutely.

But, not seeing misogyny in this doesn't make one oblivious or part of the misogynistic problem. It just means that we are assessing blame in a different area than on the broad stroke assumption that society made these women (or men) do this. That's just too broad for my comfort.
The Professor

[Ripley]

96. Yep, you're right.

There can't possibly be mysogyny in our culture, because it's not like the men are dragging them by their hair into the operating room!

Epidemic bulemia, anorexia, drug use, inappropriate sexualization of young girls, and the saturation of the media with explicit unrealistic ideals of what a female is "good" for and none of it can be blamed on men. Nope, it's all the fault of the girls.

Do you guys really not understand the messages being sent to young girls? They will not be paid equally in America for doing the same job as men. They will not be given equal perks as men in sports scholarships and other academic help. The Madonna and The Whore are the only two options most of us see in our culture as a place to fit in in America. Girls have been programmed, not so subtly, that they must be outwardly sexual (even at pre-adolescent ages) in dress, make-up, body language and behavior or they can be a Nun or a Stepford Wife.

Yes, we have free choice and obviously us liberal women feel free to show disdain for these societal norms which are harming girls and women's self-image and pushing us back into the days of not noticing that we are wearing the most god damned uncomfortable shoes in the Universe, paying money we don't have for larger more uncomfortable breasts, losing sleep so we can apply sexy red lips before we hobble into the office because afterall, if J-Lo and Katie Couric do it, it must be normal. Push down those feelings, push them down hard.

Sorry for the run-on sentence. But I get steamed when I hear the innocent hang-wringing questions about if it's so bad, why do you do it? If you haven't noticed the objectification of even the smallest girls in our culture you must be sleeping. Five year olds should not wear skirts with cherries on the ass saying "juicy" and teenager girls should not be coerced by boyfriends, doctors, or fucking Madison Avenue and all the other MALE DOMINATED influences that make money off of this into undergoing anaesthesia, major surgery on her organs, things not deemed entirely safe shoved in her and set up for a lifetime of more surgeries and drugs.

Aw fuck it. Deaf ears anyway.

[ProfessorGAC]

98. So. I'm A Misogynist, Now?

You need to read more carefully. I never said there wasn't a societal influence. In fact, i said pretty clearly that there was!

Yet, you ignore the crux of my post, that one not need by misogynistic to feel that the culpability starts at the person ELECTING to have a surgery they don't need.

These pressures have been identical to every young girl in this country for 30 years. How many actually elected to have breast enlargement? 50%? No. 20%? No. More like 2%! So, the pressures are on all women, yet only 1 in 50 chooses surgery. That's not societal. That's a personal and misguided choice.

Yes, the pressures are real. Yes, the male dominated business and entertainment worlds exacerbate the problem. We completely agree on that. But, unlike you, i'm not willing to ignore the personal decision to get cut up when it wasn't necessary. I would COMPLETELY agree if the preponderance of women under 30 had elective cosmetic surgery. But, that's not the case.

And, since i directed my comments at Eloriel, i find it most interesting and fairly insulting that you would consider my ears deaf, and that it wasn't worth discussing further. The only inference that can be taken is that i must be a misogynist. Well, let me answer that succinctly: Get Bent!
The Professor

[Ripley]

99. No.

And you know I didn't mean it personally. Men always get so offended if someone points out a symptom of the big disease. I didn't say you hate women. I have no way of knowing how you treat women personally. I don't know the percentage of girls getting this surgery, but I know it is on the rise and it is glorified on TV 24/7.

The deaf ears are the ones that say okay, I guess I see some unfairness, but men love women, we don't hate them. Yet all evidence of the backsliding of equality for women in our culture is to the contrary.

I'm sure glad to know you can put a percentage on the problem and decide when men should get alarmed. :eyes:

[ProfessorGAC]

105. Redux

The Professor

[JHB]

101. Thank You, Professor

My main bone of contention with the use of the term "misogynist" here is because it's too reductionist. What's involved is a whole range of behaviors that fully cross gender lines. And because attributing it mainly to "misogyny" all too often gets further reduced to "it's all men's fault".

I won't be so melodramatic as somone else above was and claim men have it worse. Overall, I don't think that's true, but some of the points he brought up do illustrate how it isn't that simple and can't be reduced to one overarching villain.

I'm uncomfortable applying a term that can easily become overly-broad to something I squarely regard as part of the simple human failing of "warped things we do to get approval (or so we think)".

[ProfessorGAC]

106. The Point I Was, Indeed, Trying To Make

Thank you!
The Professor

[noiretextatique]

118. i think the problem is your reduction of misogyny to "men's fault"

when misogyny means "hatred of women." that defintion doesn't at all exclude women. and it's not about "simple human failings" either...it's a mindset that is pervasive in many cultures in the world.
women are being imprisoned in afghanistan for not having hymens (they are subjected to this "search" by policemen). girls are still having their genitals mutilated. women can't vote in saudi arabia.
"simple human failings" simply doesn't cut it.

[noiretextatique]

116. may i suggest you read "gynecology" for dot connection?

in it the author, mary daly, talks about the compulsion of patriarchy to reshape, redefine, mutilate and otherwise control women and their bodies. if you think about from a perspective larger than this particular culture at this particular time, you see a pattern that can't be dismissed as coincidental. and even in this culture, something like the corset had the same general effect as foot-binding in that it was mutilating, restricting, and required, for the most.
i remember when i was growing up...the pressure i felt (and thankfully resisted) to conform to the fashion trends of the day...makeup, ridiculously high-heeled shoes, etc, etc, etc.
the appearance obsession is still a big part of the socialization girls receive in this culture...even if some elements of it are dangerous, crazy and life-threatening. what else is new??

[Pathwalker]

107. Actually fashion wasn't the only reason they bound their feet.

Another reason was the perception that it caused the woman's uterus and vagina to tip forward, which made sexual relations more pleasurable for the man. Disgusting IMO.

Also, to those who might want to consider breat reduction: you should know they eventually grow back to their former size. So, if you think your backaches will be permanently gone, think again.

Will we ever be rid of our facination with baby milk factories?

[bratcatinok]

115. Not only was it fashion and sexual relations but it was class too

With bound feet a woman had to be waited on hand and foot because she was unable to take care of herself. The more servants/slaves one had to take care of oneself, the more wealth one had. The more wealth, the higher the class.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

83. I'm a plump gal

and, before I got married, I had NO problems in finding boyfriends and/or sexual partners, most of whom are the types that you would "associate" with the skinny model-looking types.

It's all in your head and how you present yourself. Intelligence, confidence and humor go much further than a size 4 and fake breasts. I did have breast reduction surgery, though, primarily because of the indentations from the bra straps (which are still there) and back pain. Best thing I ever did.

On the other hand, the obsessions with thinness and blondness are so entrenched in today's society that the media (magazines, shows, etc.) sure make you feel like an alien specimen if you don't fit this mold! It's very difficult to shop if you are above size 14, even despite Lane Bryant.

For instance, take TV. Why is it ok to have a large plump male in the leading role while the female "lead" (say, a TV wife) is skinny?

And another pet peeve of mine is when female "celebrities" say that they don't mind being full-figured, because they wear a size 6 instead of a size 2 or 0.... LOL!

I really think that parents who allow their children, male or female, to get cosmetic surgery just to become more pleasant to others are risking their children's physical and mental health big time.

[Selwynn]

92. Our society is making a cry for help, right before killing itself.

Things like this are heartbreaking and gut wrenching to me.

Our country is defined by two things these days: ruthless obsession with excess and personal despair, alienation, self-loathing and hopelessness. The two feed off each other. The latter leads to the former, and the former reinforces the latter.

It breaks my heart because it is such a cry for help. Our society is making one big cry for help right before it kills itself. But too few are listening.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

100. Unfortunely, for them, fads change.

I have a 37 year old stepdaughter who is bedecked with tatoos, has had breast implants, and is dangling with tinware. It's her business, but I am a bit irritated when she complains about not being able to find a decent job or is not taken seriously by the general public.

Shedding the ironmongery when jangling becomes passe may be easy, but the tatoos and 36d's are going to be a different matter.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

104. Yes, fake boobs are disgusting.

But so are a lot of young women. People have the right to express themselves by doing whatever they want to their bodies. Their right to get implants is equal to someone else's right to pierce their genitals is equal to my right to smoke weed is equal to my girlfriend's right to get an abortion if she wants. I wonder why people stand against some of these rights and for others.

[ArkDem]

108. This is what bush has done to America.

[MrSlayer]

112. 14 is too young for cosmetic surgery.

You haven't even finished developing yet. 18 and over is fine. I know quite a few people with implants and they haven't had the slightest problem, damn shame about this girl but it's a rare case.

[Uzybone]

113. you blame them to an extent

i.e you give them a pass and blame the media, men and everything else. They are the ones who decided to have the surgery. And what do you propose we do anyhow, ban plastic surgery?

[noiretextatique]

119. i share your disgust...and it is misogyny

a long tradition of it, in fact. just as there is a long tradition of racism in this country...something else even some so-called "liberals" love to tapdance around. :puke:
every girl in america should be studying feminism from the time she can read.

[Nikia]

120. I agree it is ironic

Women have the freedom now to fully participate in politics, most sports, and any career which we choose. At the same time, women are being reduced more than ever to bodies and body parts. Women are more than bodies.

[LiberalAndProud]

122. Believe me, this doesn't have a whole lot to do with parents.

At 18, young women already know all the answers. Really. Thank goodness my daughter was broke and not willing to go into debt at 18 because she expressed the sincere desire to have a boob job. I discouraged her, but if she had had the bank account, vavavavoom.

She's 23 now and I'm smarter (imagine that).

[Matilda]

124. Been reading these posts, and you just said it ...

try telling your 18 year old any fact that goes against what her
peers are telling her (or him, for that matter), and you suddenly
have a severe case of deafness.

I do sometimes wonder whether it was such a good idea to grant full
adult status to 18 year olds (it's the same in Australia as it is in
the US). Makes me sound old, I know, but when you think back, at
18 most people just don't have the real inner confidence to go
against whatever is the accepted norm for their peers. Those few
years to 21 make a great difference. As a parent, you still want to
protect them, but if they have the money, or a credit card, there's
nothing you can do if they're determined. And let me say - 18 year
old girls can be very tough on each other - just a "casual" word
from a "friend" can be shattering to the esteem, and all a parent's
love and support are nothing in comparison.