Vote On Your Opinion of Liberalism as Defined By This Song & Then Respond

[cherryperry]

Poll question: Vote On Your Opinion of Liberalism as Defined By This Song & Then Respond

LOVE ME, I'M A LIBERAL
by Phil Ochs

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L.-C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crane?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

[JohnKleeb]

1. Other dont know how to feel

"I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L.-C.I.O. board"
I am not a commie but I dont like purging either.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. I voted other...

None of the categories quite sums up my sentiments. Ochs may have been underscoring some of the hypocrisy he witnessed but this is a slam on the stereotypical "liberal elitist" which I don't buy as being the individual that defines liberalism.

Ochs is implying that this IS liberalism rather than a small slice of it. Those who actually marched and risked themselves in the civil rights movement would argue against his view.

This is simply one more time, where the left has given the right the right to define us by the words of one of us and they do. If you read that song in the context of today's wing nut rants against liberals...it reads like a wing nut song.

I grew up around liberals that got their hands dirty (which was during Ochs time) Maybe he was hanging out with the wrong liberals...maybe he was the elitist.

[Sophree]

9. Totally

"If you read that song in the context of today's wing nut rants against liberals...it reads like a wing nut song."

I've never heard this song and I couldn't figure out if it was a real liberal criticizing the left or a wingnut "troll." It pisses me off either way, though. There are more constructive ways to get people involved, right?

[cherryperry]

14. Sophree, you have a valid point, but

it really was a different time.

I am guessing it's just not going to translate some 35 years later.

:loveya:

[Sophree]

83. I know

The world looks a lot different to us 20-somethings I guess. Unfortunately.

[cherryperry]

13. oops!

miscommunication, NSMA!

He was making fun of the liberalism of the time, but he actually did march AND risk himself by going down South to put his beliefs on the line.

Take a time machine and recall there were a lot of limousine liberals who didn't do anything but send $$$$ to assuage any guilt.

I think at that time liberal really was kinda a slam and people who are now proud to be liberal were then considering themselves radical.

I really think he was anything but an elitist ...

:loveya:

[Terwilliger]

80. the wrong liberals

which ones are those?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

84. LOL are we paranoid?

The ones that do nothing and act like they are doing something ;-)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. From an old SDS'r

Loved the song when it came out. Still do, for that matter. We still see self-identified "liberals" doing the same things, playing it safe, attacking the left, calling for compromise, going along with the system.

Here's another. Not a song, but a saying back in the '60s:

"The fascists will shoot you.

The conservatives will cheer the fascists.

The moderates will watch it on TV.

And, the liberals will cry over your grave and feel guilty because they turned you into the fascists."

Don't believe it? Just watch the DLC in action.

[DieboldMustDie]

5. What does the DLC have to do with liberalism?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Better Yet

what does the Students For A Democratic Society have to do with traditional liberalism.

Traditional liberalism was their enemy...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Bingo! Give that lad a seegar!

"Traditional" liberals had sold out long ago.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. I Like Welfare State Capitalism

Let the achievers achieve as long as there is a safety net in place for those who try and fail.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Ask them. Most of them would define themselves as "liberal".

They take "liberal" positions, such as:

"Pro-choice" but against "Partial Birth Abortion"

"Pro Affirmative Action" but against "quotas".

"Pro Seperation of Church and State" but against taxing churches.

"Pro Labor" but against Socialism

"Anti war" but against unilateral disarmament

"Anti corporate globalism" but pro NAFTA, WTO, etc.

The list goes on.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Let's Have Some Fun With This

I'm pro choice but I have a problem with third term abortions.

It's never been the policy of the Dem party to tax churches.

The Democratic party has never embraced socialism in toto; especially textbook socialsim which is collective ownership of the means of production.

The Democratic party has never favored unilateral disarmarment. Damn right the world is a dangerous place....

The Democratic party has historically been the party of free trade. It was the Republican party's protectionist policies which was one of the causes of The Great Depression.

Feel free to believe what you want but it's not productive to remake the Democratic party in your image.

[cherryperry]

44. One small quibble:

You are correct that the Democratic party has historically been the party of free trade. However, I believe since the unintended results of free, not fair, trade, e.g. NAFTA, those free trade advocates in the Democratic party are singing a different tune now.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. Absolootely right! You qualify!

The Democratic Party has never completely endorsed the right of women to have control over their own bodies.

The Democratic Party has never had the guts to go after ultra-rich churches and tax them like any other business.

The Democratic Party has never completely embraced socialism, only the bits and pieces of it that will give the people a little relief from the depradations of the capitalists.

The Democratic Party has never favored unilateral disarmament. Which is why we pour hundreds of billions of dollars annually into the coffers of the defense industry so we can protect ourselves from "Dangerous" enemies such as mighty Greneda and Panama. We have to have those 10s of thousands of nukes to keep the maddened Cubans from the storming the shores of Miami in their '54 Chevies. And, we have to fund places like the "School for the Americas" so our surrogates can knock off those bloodthirsty nuns in El Salvador.

The Democratic Party has always been the party of free trade. Free, huh? Now that the capitalists have failed to reduce wages in this country to starvation level they are "free" to seek out cheap labor in other countries and starve them.

It's not productive to remake the Democratic Party in "my" image? Never fear. The "liberals" and their corporate allies are unlikely to allow such a fearsome prospect.

Yup. I'd have to say that you certainly do qualify as a red-white and blue, let's not go too far, play it safe, don't make waves, "liberal". Hell, with a little more work on your resume you might even make "moderate" and be able to run for office as a Democrat.

[WoodrowFan]

29. yep.

"Pro-choice" but against "Partial Birth Abortion"
Yep, unless they put in something protecting the health of the mother, THAT comes first.

"Pro Affirmative Action" but against "quotas".
yep.

"Pro Seperation of Church and State" but against taxing churches.
yep.

"Pro Labor" but against Socialism
define "socialism". Soviet Style repression OR Western European style welfare? For the latter, against the former (for the freeper lurkers that means NO on Soviet, Yes on Western Europe)

"Anti war" but against unilateral disarmament
DUH!

"Anti corporate globalism" but pro NAFTA, WTO, etc.
That depends, can NAFTA style agreements be used to raise labor standards overseas? Then yes. An excuse to move jobs to Mexican sweatshops, then No.

By you standards I'm not a liberal, but the standards of most of the US I am, but freeper standards I'm a damn commie.

[cherryperry]

45. By freeper standards,

everyone who isn't a freeper is a damn commie! LOL

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

75. By my standards

and Phil Och's standards you would qualify as a "liberal". Most of the US would agree. By freeper standards anyone who doesn't wear camouflage underwear, believe that Reagan is the father of our country, or think that Barbra Streisand is being paid by the KGB, is a lousy commie.

I assume that, by your "DUH" comment you thing that unilateral disarament is a dangerous idea. Come on, couldn't we give up a few of those thousands of nukes, cut a few billion from the "defense" budget to pay for schools or hospitals, without endangering the safety of our people from invasion by evil Cuba?

We surely don't want to tax those poverty stricken churches that rake in billions of dollars annually to fund the jewelery, mansions, tv stations, cathedrals, schools, etc. After all, they're not really money making enterprises. Just ask any televangelist.

We don't want them quotas. We surely wouldn't want to provide education to poor blacks from the ghettos who have every opportunity that middle or upper class whites have in qualifying for college admissions. Just because they have to sidestep de facto racism, live in poverty, go hungry, and fight to survive, doesn't give them any "special rights" to an education. They just have to try harder. Besides, they don't have to carry the burdens of wealth. They don't have the trauma of having to decide between a Corvette or an SUV.

Oh, yes, all of those naughty ladies waiting for their pregnancies to go to term and then deciding to have an abortion of "convenience". It must happen a lot. Women certainly can't be entrusted with the care of their own bodies.

Define socialism? How about letting people make their own definition of what kind of economic system they want. BTW, it wasn't "socialism" that made the soviet government repressive, it was the soviet government. "Democratic Socialism" is just that, democratic. The soviet system wasn't democratic.

[cherryperry]

16. bandera, may I worship at your altar please?

:toast: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[donco6]

4. I couldn't get past "tears running down my spine."

Crappy rhyme.

[cherryperry]

24. Why

is "tears ran down my spine" a crappy rhyme?

Oh, never mind that!

Please just read the damn song and see what you think; don't think of it as a poetic masterpiece, think of it as a piece of satire written some 35 years ago by an activist, ok, pretty please...

:thumbsup: :hi: :loveya:

[GabysPoppy]

6. I disagree

I refuse to allow someone else to define who I am. I am a LIBERAL because of what I do not because of what I say.

[Sophree]

10. GabysPoppy (OT)

I went to the freelori website yesterday. It is heartbreaking. Do you know her personally?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. That Song Has About As Much Relevance To 21st Century America

as Fun, Fun, Fun

[cherryperry]

17. Well, alrighty then,

that's one of the things I wanted to see; I'm finding your view prevails: the song just doesn't translate to the DUers who have posted here and I completely respect that!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. A Couple Of Things

I don't want a revolution. Most ,not all revolutions end up badly...


I'm a liberal and I didn't think Malcom had it coming. Malcom rejected the race politics and separtism of the Black Muslims and was on his way to a spiritual rebirth when he was shot.

As far as commies in the labor movement I don't have a problem if they are subscribing to our principals as long as they don't expect us to subscribe to theirs.


Ochs song is a fight against strawmen. It's almost as bad as "Have You Forgotten" but in another direction.

Anyway the best protest songs of the 60's were These Times They Are A Changin and Revolution which was anti-revolution.

[cherryperry]

26. Well, two things:

I'll certainly agree with you on "The Times They Are A-Changin'" by Dylan, but it certainly was NO satire - it was straight out. I really wanted to see if the DUers of today 'got' it - guess not!

and

You had me with your picture of RFK. Man, can you imagine an RFK/Wellstone ticket? WOW!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. These Times They Are A Changing

was not satire nor was Revolution:

You say you wanna revoltion

Well you know we're all doing what we can

but when you talk about destruction don't you know you can count me out


........

And when you go carrying a picture of Chairman Mao

you're not going to make it with anyone any how

[cherryperry]

46. I agree, DSB! n/t

[G_j]

18. try this version

Jello Biafra/Album/Prarie Home Invasion
Song/Love Me I'm A Liberal
Phil Ochs/Jello Biafra/The Toadliquors)

I cried when they shot John Lennon

Tears ran down my spine
And I cried when I saw "JFK"
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X and Ice-T had it coming
They got what they asked for this time

CHORUS

(So love me, love me, love me
I'm a liberal)

I go to pro-choice rallies
Recycle my cans and jars

I'll honk if you love the Dead
Hope those funny grunge bands become stars
But don't talk about revolution That's going a little bit too far

CHORUS

I cheered when Clinton was chosen
My faith in the system reborn
I'll do anything to save our schools

If my taxes ain't too much more
And I love blacks and gays and Latinos
As long as they don't move next door

CHORUS

Rush Limbaugh and the L.A.P.D.
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand where they're at

Arsenio should set them straight
But if Neigborhood Watch doesn't know you
I hope the cops take your name

CHORUS

Yeh, I read the New Republic(an)

Rolling Stone and Mother Jones too
If I vote it's a Democrat
With a sensible economy view
But when it comes to terrorist Arabs

There's no one more red, white and blue

CHORUS

Once I was young and had an attitude

Stickers covered the car I drove in

Even went on some direct actions
When there weren't rent-a-cops to be seen

Ah, but now I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in

CHORUS
----------------------------

[cherryperry]

21. WOW! I've never heard that!

I love it. Thanks a lot, G_j!

:toast: :hippie: :party: :hi: :loveya:

[G_j]

65. thank DU

I heard about it from someone here. I forget who.

[cherryperry]

70. Okay, sure, thanks, DU! n/t

[uptohere]

15. is satire so hard to recognize ?

the guy is ragging on the so-called liberals. Ones who are or who have become complacent. All hat and no boot.

PLease tell me you alrady know this !

[cherryperry]

19. It looks as

though they don't 'get' it. Oh, well. Glad you do!

[uptohere]

23. I'm a little concerned about this

I would not have thought that of the crowd here. Hopefully everyone is having a little fun with this on a lovely saturday night !

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. We Get It

It reminds me of Have You Forgotten but in another direction.

[zekeson]

32. Have you forgotten is satire?

No, Ochs' is satire, and he did it well. Biafro certainly updated/improved it. Have you forgotten is lame, cloying and nationalistic pablum.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Rush Thinks He's A Satirist

and I'm not a big fan of his either.

He attributes to liberals a bunch of positions they don't hold.

[zekeson]

35. He's using a wide brush to make his point

that many "liberals" tend to want their change in pretty packages and with a spoon of sugar. They also tend to mellow as they get older. If you think think that the majority of liberals differ from that description then you must live in San Fran or Madison and never ventured out to the rest of the planet.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. Jellos Biafra And Phil Ochs Are Slamming Liberals Because They

Ain't Radicals.


But just cuz I'm not a radical doesn't mean I subcribe to all the retrograde positions he assigns to liberals.

It's just a song anyway....

[cherryperry]

49. Precisely! It's just a song, ok? n/t

[cherryperry]

48. You consider that satire? I don't think so ... n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. I Don't Consider Rush A Satirist

nor do I consider Phil Ochs one.

Rush is a cartoonist

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Same Strawmen

in Jello's songs


I don't know any liberals who think Malcom had it coming and wasup with the Ice T reference. He's still alive...

I like Ice T

but I'll take Chuck D

Dr Dre

Ice Cube

Snoop Doggy Dog

anyday.

[cherryperry]

42. ouch oooh ouch, that

especially hurts from a guy with an avatar that says union/yes, but I appreciate your feelings...

:spank: :hi:

[zekeson]

54. Don't mean to offend

but the song does, in fact, offend me. I know of no one who doesn't want Bin Laden brought to justice, so I am not certain what the main foci of the song is all about. I do know a whole lot of folks who want to know exactly who else acted with Bin Laden and would like to see a thorough investigation. The sentiment of this song reflects the attitude of the * misadministration all too well.
So, not certain why my union label is out of place here. I would like to know why my brothers and sisters in the safety unions of NYC died that day and who is responsible for their deaths.

:hi:

[cherryperry]

67. Please see

message 58 - I couldn't put it any better than that!

I'm so sorry you were offended.

The union label is anything but out of place! My father's life work was organizing for the UAW and I couldn't be more proud!! That's why it hurt me that you didn't 'get' the song. It has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

:nuke: the people responsible for that!!!!!

"Which side are you on
Which side are you on
You'll either be a union man
Or a thug for J.H. Blair"

I'm sure I screwed that up, but, believe me, I grew up singing those old union hymns as I accompanied my Dad on the picket lines.

When I was the Administrator for a law school faculty center, the liberal profs adored me and the right-wingers called me "Norma Rae" in a most derogatory way, but I was proud to be given that nickmane.

God bless you and all the work you do!

[zekeson]

81. I think there is some confusion here

I LIKED the Ochs song and defended it in a few posts. I said the Have you forgotten song offended me and described reasaons why. If we are still in disagreement then let me know.

[Isome]

43. I didn't get it...

I couldn't get past the Malcolm had it coming line. Pardon those of us who were being too literal this evening.[/font

[cherryperry]

51. That was the liberal feeling of the day!

The liberals cried when they shot Medgar Evers etc., but were really afraid of Macolm; how ironic that he was becoming more inclusive at the very time he was assassinated! But, that's why it's included; it really was a part of the liberal litany!


:loveya: <<<hugs>>>

[mitchum]

27. Absolutely! its only rival from that time was Wolfe's "Radical Chic"

apparently Ochs can still touch a nerve or two...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. What If I Told You That Song Irritates Me As Much As "Have You

Forgotten"

IMHO, it's equally as reactionary but in another direction,

[Jim Sagle]

36. i voted with the majority.

Although some who call themselves liberal are complete sellouts, I question anyone who feels morally superior enough to call them on it.

[cherryperry]

38. Jim, Jim, Jim...

I don't think Ochs ever felt anything akin to "morally superior"! I really think it was pure satire! If anything, Ochs felt quite insecure, you know. Did you know he committed suicide? And that was not from a feeling of superiority either ...

:loveya:

[AlienGirl]

60. OMG, another Ochs fan?!

Phil Ochs was great...I really wish he were alive today. Think of the songs he could write about whistle-ass's war.

Here's one of my favorites:

The War is Over, by Phil Ochs

Silent Soldiers on a silver screen
Framed in fantasies and dragged in dream
Unpaid actors of the mystery
The mad director knows that freedom will not make you free
And what's this got to do with me

I declare the war is over
It's over, it's over

Drums are drizzling on a grain of sand
Fading rhythms of a fading land
Prove your courage in the proud parade
Trust your leaders where mistakes are almost never made
And they're afraid that I'm afraid

I'm afraid the war is over
It's over, it's over

Angry artists painting angry signs
Use their vision just to blind the blind
Poisoned players of a grizzly game
One is guilty and the other gets the point to blame
Pardon me if I refrain

I declare the war is over
It's over, it's over

So do your duty, boys, and join with pride
Serve your country in her suicide
Find the flags so you can wave goodbye
But just before the end even treason might be worth a try
This country is to young to die

I declare the war is over
It's over, it's over

One-legged veterans will greet the dawn
And they're whistling marches as they mow the lawn
And the gargoyles only sit and grieve
The gypsy fortune teller told me that we'd been deceived
You only are what you believe

I believe the war is over
It's over, it's over

Tucker

[cherryperry]

68. Yes - please PM me or I'll PM you; whoever gets there first, ok?

How about "I Ain't Marchin' Anymore:

Oh I marched to the battle of new orleans
At the end of the early british war
The young land started growing
The young blood started flowing
But i ain't marchin' anymore

For i've killed my share of indians
In a thousand different fights
I was there at the little big horn
I heard many men lying
I saw many more dying
But i ain't marchin' anymore

It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all

For i stole california from the mexican land
Fought in the bloody civil war
Yes i even killed my brother
And so many others
And i ain't marchin' anymore

For i marched to the battles of the german trench
In a war that was bound to end all wars
Oh i must have killed a million men
And now they want me back again
But i ain't marchin' anymore

(chorus)

For i flew the final mission in the japanese sky
Set off the mighty mushroom roar
When i saw the cities burning
I knew that i was learning
That i ain't marchin' anymore

Now the labor leader's screamin' when they close the missile plants,
United fruit screams at the cuban shore,
Call it "peace" or call it "treason,"
Call it "love" or call it "reason,"
But i ain't marchin' any more.


:hi: :loveya:

[davidinalameda]

37. Didn't vote but...

I thought the song is ragging on liberals

A favorite criticism of the wing nuts against liberals is that they talk one way and act another--the line about the Puerto Ricans and Negros moving next door.

I actually have to agree with this. Some out there do talk a good line but when it comes to action, well y'all know that some don't carry through.

[cherryperry]

39. Thanks for your comments!

I really think the song does not translate some 35 years later...

It WAS ragging on limousing liberals, yes, but in those times there were different labels and so I wanted to see what others think...

I do believe I found out!

BTW, add gay people to the line to which you referred! Anyhoo, I do appreciate your comments!

:loveya: :loveya: :thumbsup: :hi:

[Bolo Boffin]

41. Some are like this, but not all

Liberalism calls us to our highest ideals, and we may be human and succumb to baser instincts, but not all of us do.

But if the song helps open up a heart, then it's doing some good.

[cherryperry]

52. yes, at the time,

I'm certain that it did!

:loveya: :hi:

[Solon]

47. Narrow definitions and stupidity...

I hate those lyrics, and to me, Liberalism could never be defined with those cursed words. To me, Liberalism stands for hope, hope that with an open mind and open heart that we will all realize that all opinions and positions are to be valued. That we do not summarily dismiss one position or another strictly because of either its source or the person. We, as liberals, should recognize the flaws in humanity, and work to overcome them. To think through the issues we face every day critically and without prejudice, and most of all, to approach life with the optimism that forged the path to progress for the past 500 years. To move beyond the tragedies of the past, grow from them, and hammer out a new future that we can all be proud of.

[cherryperry]

53. At this point, we're up to 102% - whaaaa? eom

[zekeson]

55. rounding errors

[cherryperry]

56. yeah, I know, just trying to be light and all that b.s., but

thanks!

:thumbsup: :hi:

[donco6]

57. I voted Phil Ochs is a whiney baby.

But maybe that's a bit harsh.

I can see what he's saying, "Yeah, I'm liberal, inasmuch as I don't actually have to do anything different myself." I do think it's a bit judgmental, however. It's basically saying, "if you don't do all these things I've written down, then you're not really liberal." I've always hated that technique. It's cheap and unfair.

And I still don't like "tears down my spine." I mean, really. He couldn't think of anything better to rhyme with "mine"?

[cherryperry]

62. Thanks for replying more seriously, donco6!

No, he's basically commenting on limousine liberals who watched all the liberal tv shows and listened to all the liberal radio shows, but mostly just wrote out checks rather than actually DID anything. At the time, people were desperately needed to picket, to go down South for voter registration (that's was extremely dangerous - look at what happened to Goodman, Schwerner and Cheney, but they were just one example), but to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. He was disgusted with people who thought they could be counted as liberals when they sat by and did nothing! It WAS a different time, but I hope you can better understand what he was really trying to say.

Hey, it's okay not to like the song for its poetry, but please, the overall message is what was so important at the time.

:loveya: :hi:

:kick:

[donco6]

63. And this I agree with:

"He was disgusted with people who thought they could be counted as liberals when they sat by and did nothing!"

[cherryperry]

69. Great! Thanks for keeping an open mind!

:hi: :loveya:

[starroute]

58. In 1968, liberalism was failing on all the major issues of the time

Liberalism failed to oppose the Vietnam War. In those days, Hubert Humphrey was the archetypal liberal, and Humphrey people were pro-war. The first time I ever heard anyone putting down "liberals" as a group was in a bus on the way to an anti-Vietnam War demonstration in 1968.

Liberalism's best answers to racial problems were civil rights legislation, the war on poverty, and housing projects (which in those days were called "urban renewal".) Liberals had no clue as to why racial tensions kept getting worse after 1965 and no idea as to what to do about it.

Liberalism was seen as the special province of the World War II generation. Youngsters in the 60's didn't identify with the issues and attitudes of that generation. They perceived liberals as overwhelmingly white, middle class, condescending towards minorities, and hypocritical -- and for the most part, they were right.

Liberalism was also seen as a degenerate form of the real radicalism of the late 30's and 1940's. Take one genuine movement for social justice, hound out the communists and eliminate most of the socialists at the same time, buy off the unions with promises of improved wages and benefits, and the weak-tea remainder was 60's liberalism.

Finally, liberals were perceived as hopelessly square. They couldn't handle sex, drugs, or rock 'n' roll. They were stuck on the far side of the generation gap with no hope of redemption. They just didn't *get* it.

You have to forget everything you believe about what liberalism means today if you want to understand the song. Phil Ochs was singing about the retrogressive "liberalism" of 1968, and he was absolutely dead on target.

[cherryperry]

64. starroute:

"Site Down, I Think I Love You"

I bet you know about that song, too!

You posted a beautiful explanation and I thank you!!!


:hi:

[G_j]

59. to focus in on the issue a bit

there is an aspect of what might be called "liberalism" that was and is sort of a blind spot, and that's privilege. Many people, including myself, don't quite fathom how much it means to be born in a position of privilege (in particlur to be born white and male)
in our society. It's just a hard thing to grasp. There are advantages which are so subtle that lots of us don't see them and how they may effect our attitudes. To me this just says we always have more to learn about ourselves.

edit; You can also ask any feminist from the 60s how much us 'liberal' males had to learn and grow in terms of gender issues.

[redeye]

61. I voted not appropriate in either the 1960s or the 2000s...

...though the best way to describe the song is abusively idiotic, childishly simplistic.

[robbedvoter]

66. No longer applies eversince Raygun moved the center to the right

When Phil Ochs wrote that song, liberal was something people were proud to be - and he took a poke at this sacred cow from the radical perspective. Partly justified at the time.
Enter Raygun and the media (sans fairness doctrine): now everyone, Phil's gang, the people he poked fun at and people who would be DLC- moderate GOP-ers - all of them became "liberals". Those "dirty liberals" opposed to "the people" (silent majority) - that fuzzy notion that media assigned when dubbing Raygun "populist". So, the majority of Americans - everyone who was not a freeper became some sort of a fringe that had to defend their right to exist, speak for themselves eversince.
Now we need to fight for our right to be liberal and proud of it.
Which only illustrates how far back we moved from Ochs time.

[cherryperry]

71. Excellent analysis!

You crystallized a lot for me and I appreciate it.

"Freeper" wouldn't even be considered or known about during the '60s or '70s.

Then along came Raygun.

What a terrible right turn we have taken!

:thumbsup: :hi:

[Terwilliger]

73. This song is an indictment of phony liberals

what's not to understand?

[cherryperry]

74. Precisely!

I really don't understand the buttons it apparently pushed, but you nailed it. All hail Terwilliger!


:hi:

[Friar]

76. he hated hypocrites

and that song was a rant against the new york rich kids who thought they were liberal, but only to an extent. He also wrote this some 35 years ago. Pretty prescient, I think:

Cops of the World
By Phil Ochs



Come, get out of the way, boys
Quick, get out of the way
You'd better watch what you say, boys
Better watch what you say
We've rammed in your harbor and tied to your port
And our pistols are hungry and our tempers are short
So bring your daughters around to the port
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

We pick and choose as please, boys
Pick and choose as please
You'd best get down on your knees, boys
Best get down on your knees
We're hairy and horny and ready to shack
We don't care if you're yellow or black
Just take off your clothes and lie down on your back
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

Our boots are needing a shine, boys
Boots are needing a shine
But our Coca-cola is fine, boys
Coca-cola is fine
We've got to protect all our citizens fair
So we'll send a battalion for everyone there
And maybe we'll leave in a couple of years
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

Dump the reds in a pile, boys
Dump the reds in a pile
You'd better wipe of that smile, boys
Better wipe off that smile
We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck
We'll find you a leader that you can elect
Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

Clean the johns with a rag, boys
Clean the johns with a rag
If you like you can use your flag, boys
If you like you can use your flag
We've got too much money we're looking for toys
And guns will be guns and boys will be boys
But we'll gladly pay for all we destroy
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

Please stay off of the grass, boys
Please stay off of the grass
Here's a kick in the ass, boys
Here's a kick in the ass
We'll smash down your doors, we don't bother to knock
We've done it before, so why all the shock?
We're the biggest and toughest kids on the block
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

When we butchered your son, boys
When we butchered your son
Have a stick of our gum, boys
Have a stick of our buble-gum
We own half the world, oh say can you see
The name for our profits is democracy
So, like it or not, you will have to be free
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

[cherryperry]

77. Oh, I love that one, too!

Might you also be a Phil Ochs' fan?

Anyway, :yourock: :hi:

[starroute]

78. But the one that haunts me is Rhythms of Revolution

In a building of gold, with riches untold,
lived the families on which the country was founded.
And the merchants of style, with their red velvet smiles,
were there, for they also were hounded.
And the soft middle class crowded in to the last,
for the building was fully surrounded.
And the noise outside was the rhythms of revolution.

Sadly they stared and sank in their chairs
and searched for a comforting notion.
And the rich silver walls looked ready to fall
As they shook in doubtful devotion.
The ice cubes would clink as they freshened their drinks,
wet their minds in bitter emotion.
And they talked about the rhythms of revolution.

We were hardly aware of the hardships they beared,
for our time was taken with treasure.
Oh, life was a game, and work was a shame,
And pain was prevented by pleasure.
The world, cold and grey, was so far away
In the distance only money could measure.
But their thoughts were broken by the rhythms of revolution.

The clouds filled the room in darkening doom
as the crooked smoke rings were rising.
How long will it take, how can we escape
Someone asks, but no one's advising.
And the quivering floor responds to the roar,
In a shake no longer surprising.
As closer and closer comes the rhythms of revolution.

Softly they moan, please leave us alone
As back and forth they are pacing.
And they cover their ears and try not to hear
WIth pillows of silk they're embracing.
And the crackling crowd is laughing out loud,
peeking in at the target they're chasing.
Now trembling inside the rhythms of revolution.

With compromise sway we give in half way
When we saw that rebellion was growing.
Now everything's lost as they kneel by the cross
Where the blood of christ is still flowing.
To late for their sorrow they've reached their tomorrow
and reaped the seed they were sowing.
Now harvested by the rhythms of revolution.

In tattered tuxedos they faced the new heroes
and crawled about in confusion.
And they sheepishly grinned for their memoroes were dim
of the decades of dark execution.
Hollow hands were raised; they stood there amazed
in the shattering of their illusions.
As the windows were smashed by the rhythms of revolution.

Down on our knees we're begging you please,
We're sorry for the way you were driven.
There's no need to taunt just take what you want,
and we'll make amends, if we're living.
But away from the grounds the flames told the town
that only the dead are forgiven.
As they crumbled inside the rhythms of revolution.


(The version of this I'm most familiar with was done c. 1969 by Jim and Jean, a marvellous but totally forgotten folk-rock duo -- Jim Glover had been Phil Ochs' college roommate -- intercut, in amazing harmonies, with verses of Like a Rolling Stone, Guantanamera, and Hang on Sloopy. At times, it starts to look to me like a vision of the future, and I get very scared.)

[robbedvoter]

79. Just listened to Ochs - it's "The Ringing" not the Rythms

. The last line is "vanished' instead crumbled in the original. Ochs also starts with a hysterical story of the movie made after song where Raygun plays George Murphy, Frank Sinatra is Fidel Castro, John Wayne plays Lyndon Johnson and Johnson plays God

[starroute]

82. It's both

It was originally "ringing," but Ochs changed it at a certain point -- and the Jim and Jean version I'm familiar with uses "rhythms."

The rest is as I found it online.

[cherryperry]

85. I can't tell you how much it thrills me

to actually see that a couple of you actually went on the web to find music by Phil. Want to read a wonderful tribute? Here ya go:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/philochs.html

Check it out for a better understanding of the man and the times!