Do you all think its OK that elected officials have Dual-Citizenship?

[goforit]

This is in reference to Lieberman.

Does he also has an automatic citizenship to Israel?

I do believe this is a conflict of interest.

Quite Frankly, it doesn't matter what country it is, I do see a
serious issue here brewing.

I feel that if you are citizen elected to this country then
any other citizenship should be dropped completely.

[Clete]

1. I always thought it was against the law to have dual

citizenship in the United States. It would seem doubly so for an elected official of the country that there would be a conflict of interest. Has something changed in the law that I wasn't aware of?

[Walt Starr]

4. Arnold Swarzenegger has dual citizenship

He is a citizen of both the U.S. and Austria.

[Clete]

9. That certainly doesn't seem right.

My mother, who was Chilean, has to renounce her Chilean citizenship. That was in 1949. I guess they must have changed the law.

[Walt Starr]

10. He was supposed to renounce it from Austria's POV

But some high placed politicians went to bat for him. He's a citizen of both nations.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

49. I have heard this as well

I don't see how Arnold can represent the people of California while he is still a citizen of Austria. What about a conflict of interest?

[Tinoire]

34. Yes the law was changed several years ago

I am not sure when things changed because I was surprised to find out 5 years ago that my ex did not have to give up his European citizenship. I had always been under the impression that, with few exceptions, everyone had to give it up but that's not the case. I don't know all the details but it's quite common now.


-------

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html

[Fight_n_back]

2. Are you serious?

No one in the US has dual citizenship. It is illegal here.

[Booberdawg]

5. I didn't know that

Live and learn ....

[Walt Starr]

6. Tell that to Ahnuld

He is a citizen of Austria as well as the United States.

[shugah]

14. dual citizenship is not recognized by the US

that, however, does not affect the rules of other countries. becoming a US citizen does not automatically make you a non-citizen of your original country.

what would make your allegation accurate is if you said it was "not legal there. if you are a US citizen that goes to another country and becomes a citizen there, then you are giving up US citizenship.

[IndianaGreen]

19. The US recognizes dual citizenship from certain countries

and all of these jingoistic and ultra-nationalist posts (I am speaking of the thread itself, not your specific post shugah) about "who is a citizen" are getting quite tiresome and they smack of latent racism.

Arnold is an American and so are those American Jews that hold dual US-Israeli citizenship, in fact, some serve in uniform for the US military.

Lieberman does not hold dual citizenship simply because he has not emigrated to Israel. Any American Jew that emigrates to Israel becomes an Israeli citizen upon arrival, and one gets to keep the American citizenship. Israel is not the only country in which Americans can hold dual citizenship.

I could hold Spanish citizenship by virtue of having a set of grandparents from Spain, and a new law that Spain's Cortes passed late last year.

I can also hold Israeli citizenship by emigrating to Israel, which could happen if Bush steals the next election (Canada is the other option, but it would be easier to go the Israel route).

[shugah]

23. jingoistic, i agree

and i was simply hoping to shed a little truth and realness to this thread--thanks for backing me up with those pesky facts! ;-)

i did not know that certain dual citizenships were recognized in the US--the "certain dual citizenships" recognized can only bring it home, all the harder, what you mention as jingoistic and smacking of latent racism.

if arnold went thru the process to become an american citizen, then he is. period. if he retains his austrian citizenship, then that is about austria.

actually, i wonder what this thread is really about, and if i should be worrying that my little son is entitled to a british passport (or could even play soccer for an english team!) due to the fact that his daddy is english. gawd forbid he should ever run for political office, ey?

[Maple]

24. If his daddy is English

there's a good chance he can get a passport to all of Europe not just England.

[Walt Starr]

26. I would almost be willing to bet that dual citizenship automatically

disqualifies somebody from some of the higher security clasifications in the government. At least for the peasantry. Rich poeple would probably never be affected by it.

[Maple]

27. Well this is from 2001.

"Last week the White House announced it wanted John M. Klink, who holds dual U.S. and Irish citizenship, to head the U.S. State Department's Population, Refugees, and Migration Bureau."

[Walt Starr]

28. I seriously doubt he has a very high security clearance

Of course, it's the FBI that grants or denies the various levels of security clearance and if WhistleAss leaned on 'em hard enough.....

[IndianaGreen]

51. No, it doesn't disqualify a person from a security clearance

particularly if one has dual citizenship from Israel or from one of the NATO countries.

[shugah]

29. thus far, he can travel anywhere

on his american passport--yes he has one, and it is soooo cute!!! his baby passport is good for 5 years--but he already doesn't look anything like the pic on his passport taken when he was 4 weeks old!

anyway, the thing is--he can get a british passport, because his daddy is english. becoming a US citizen does not require revocation of british citizenship. from reading this thread, i think that many people would never vote for my son for public office because he actually could be a "dual citizen." a born and raised in america "dual citizen" mind you.

there is little sense in this thread, and more than a little misconception.

[Walt Starr]

30. Almost anbody COULD hold dual citizenship

I automatically disqualify anybody who actually DOES hold dual citizenship.

Sorry if that offends you, but I cannot consider anybody who holds dual citizenship as a secure bet for political office. I simply does not hold water with me and no person who holds dual citizenship will ever get my vote.

If your son should decide to hold dual citizenship, he would automatically be disqualified from getting my vote.

[shugah]

32. great, Walt

but as far as my son goes, it's not a decision he makes. it's simply a fact of his life. he can have an american passport and/or a british passport.

i'm not offended at all. i just have to roll my eyes, and find a way to shrug about us 'murkans who have it all figured out. sure, you must be right--ain't nuthin' we can gain from listenin' to no furr-en-ners! bloody furr-en-ners! ;-)

[Walt Starr]

33. The vote is a sacred trust

I would be throwing my vote away if I trusted somebody who holds dual citizenship to make decisions that are best for the United States. I cannot believe ANYBODY who holds dual citizenship can have the best interest of the United States alone at heart.

[shugah]

37. i don't think the US alone

is the only consideration in voting. the whole world matters. i'm not particularly pleased with the current administration. are you? i'm sure that they put america first (right after their greed).

bush is american--no citizenship questions there, i trust? so, by virtue of birth, are bush and his cronies somehow putting the best interests of the US forward? obviously, they are not concerned about the whole world, but do you think they are looking out for the US?

[Paschall]

38. Consider this, Walt

In the European Union it is now law that foreign nationals from other EU countries can vote in municipal elections in their host EU country. They can also hold elected office at the municipal level.

Which means a Berlin native residing in Paris can not only vote in our next city council elections in the French capital, but could in fact be a candidate. The reasoning is, if you live here and pay taxes, there is no reason you should be discriminated against on the basis of your nationality. We are all citizens of the EU.

Caveat: This rule had been passed down by the EU commission and has already been enacted in law in some EU countries, but not all. So far. But it will have to be soon.

[Generic Other]

59. Will European countries become like states in the US?

I can see why Europeans have a more international outlook having decided to take this step. It's pretty dramatic. What about UK Commonwealth nations? Are they also open to other EU citizens?

It sounds so incredible the notion that all the boundaries would disappear so completely.

Meanwhile, we are building a higher fence at the Canadian border.

From a European POV, it no doubt sounds provincial of us to argue against dual citizenship, but for many our very mythology and national identity is wrapped up in having made such a dramatic choice. Breaking ties of colonialism. Revolution.

I think lots of Americans are sensitive to the idea that we have been sold out to foreign interests in every way possible. When I went to NYC a few years back, I was buying a postcard of the Statue of Liberty and got a jaw-dropping lecture on how the Japanese were buying up Manhatten. I assured the man I could only afford a postcard; however, I doubt if I allayed his suspicion that the country was being bought up by foreigners. A lot of Americans have begun to suspect that this is exactly what the wealthy ruling class has done. Sold us. The Rupert Murdoch's decide what information we hear; the multinationals decide who will pay taxes and how much; foreign potentates buy off our politicians; jobs are being outsourced to countries with lower standards of living. The Grapes of Wrath all over again. These are not zenophobic fantasies.

It's also true that our own worst enemies are not foreign. They appear to live amongst us. The dual citizenship issue may be clouded a bit by our severe reactions to these other situations.

I am surprised myself at my own reaction.

[Maple]

31. Cheer up

By the time he's old enough to run for office, dual citizenship will probably be the norm for everybody.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

44. I have thought about moving to Israel if Bush wins in 2004

But I am not sure I would want to live under a right wing warmonger like Ariel Sharon either, although at least economically Sharon is a lot more liberal because the whole country is a lot more liberal than we are when it comes to economic issues. They have universal healthcare, although one of the Israeli teachers in my high school was saying their system is not so good, and they have nationalized funding for schools and are only now in the process of privatizing their airline.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. Well, dual citizenshship is sure nice for you

If things go bad and Bush steals another election, sounds like half the people here are going to run off to their overseas havens, while the vast majority of us have to stay here and fight it out.

Thanks for nothing. This goes to show the exact problem of dual citizenship. I think any elected official should have to publically renounced any other citizenship, otherwise they aren't really accountable to us.

[Generic Other]

53. Does this mean one can vote in the US and Israel?

That is what seems the conflict.

The fact that one is automatically granted citizenship just by going to Israel is really unusual, isn't it? Does that mean paying taxes, residency requirements, synogogue attendance? Any requirement at all other than being Jewish? Would such a law include converts?

What if one does not wish to be granted automatic citizenship?

Mormons I have heard automatically convert all Christians after the fact. They collect baptism records from church registries around the world and convert all the individuals into Mormons, no matter what their original denomination or feelings about Mormonism. They may even have done it with Jews. It's supposedly to save us all, but I would prefer they asked if I wished to be "converted" after death.

I admit to being totally ignorant of all the dual citizenship issues in America today. I still do not think it unreasonable to refuse to vote for American politicians who choose dual citizenship.

Most of us did not have such a choice. And naturalized citizens at any rate, got the piece of paper under false pretenses if they could not forswear allegiance to any other country.

How many Muslim Americans are currently being incarcerated based on the perception of divided loyalties? I wonder how many hold dual citizenship? And does this fact make them more suspect to the government? We don't know because these citizens have lost their civil rights under the Patriot Act. Yet other citizens in the same situation are running for public office. I guess there are different laws for some Americans. We are not all one.

E Pluribus Some.

[Paschall]

35. Wrong, shugah

See Tinoire's post #34

[IndianaGreen]

21. Not true, Yang!

Check your facts, buddy! We have active duty military that hold dual US-Israeli citizenship, and they are loyal Americans.

I posted about this below this post.

[Paschall]

39. For that matter, Indiana

We have active military who are 100% foreign citizens. I posted on this topic last April and several of "our" troop casualties have, in fact, been 100% foreign nationals who enlisted so they could be fast-tracked for US citizenship. Why don't Americans know this by now? We've got Hondurans and Costa Ricans dying in Iraq for our war and still we weep over the Stars and Stripes.

[Arianrhod]

25. it is not illegal, per se

The US will not recognize dual citizenship except in cases in which the person was born both a citizen of another country AND a citizen of the US. However, one must live completely as a citizen of one or the other. That is, there is no "citizenship-hopping" allowed. One cannot claim to be an American, and later claim to be, say, a German, in order to take advantage of circumstances. But it is not
illegal to hold both citizenships.

http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html

"A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship."

[Tinoire]

36. I thought we discussed this in F/A. Have you forgotten so soon?

Maybe you weren't around... It's common... Even to the point of voting in foreign elections and serving in foreign Armed Forces. I don't think it should be allowed but it is.

Serving in foreign military

Since the Afroyim decision, thousands of Americans have served in foreign militaries -- chiefly the Israel Defense Forces -- and voted in foreign elections.

Americans who serve in the Israel Defense Forces see no conflict between their U.S. and Israeli loyalties.

Michael Cohen has spent roughly half his 37 years in the United States, half in Israel.

"I ran in the Jerusalem marathon this past week," said Cohen, who is an explosive ordnance disposal officer in the IDF reserves. "I carried both an Israeli flag and an American flag. I don't see a conflict between the two. They both stand for democracy, freedom and human rights."

http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020515dual0515p4.asp

A U.S. Army Reserve counterintelligence officer with dual citizenship in the United States and Israel has had his security clearance revoked by what he believes is an "anti-Israeli" bias within the military.

Maj. Shawn Pine, in an interview with WorldNetDaily, said that his revocation was not only improper in terms of his citizenship – he said others in a former unit he commanded also had dual citizenship – but because the revocation also failed to meet the Army's own regulations.

Pine, a former member of the U.S. Army Rangers, commanded the 300th Military Intelligence Company in Austin, Texas, when his Top Secret security clearance was revoked. He told WND he had his clearance revoked last fall after he told Army officials he performed reserve military duty for the Israel Defense Force for a short time in 1996.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27355

[UnapologeticLiberal]

42. There is a short list of countries with which it is legal

and Israel is one of them. However, as far as I know Lieberman is not a citizen of Israel...if he is, please show me proof.

[Paschall]

46. There is no such list

Or if there is I would certainly appreciate your providing a link. Any US citizen can take a foreign nationality--except that of an "enemy nation"--without losing his/her US citizenship. Regardless of the foreign country. Or do you have specific information to the contrary?

[Walt Starr]

3. I would never vote for anybody that I knew held dual citizenship

I simply cannot.

I don't know that Lieberman has Israel citizenship and that has nothing to do with the fact that I will never vote for him either.

[Booberdawg]

7. I DO think that affects his credibility as an arbiter of the U.S. n/t

[not systems]

8. only if they are from ubermensch contries

Seriously it seems screwed up to allow it.

What if we have bomb Austria because Alkidy or sumpen.

[jiacinto]

11. Yep you unwittingly proved my point

A lot of the opposition to him comes from the fact that he is Jewish. And to my knowledge he only holds US Citizenship.

[Clete]

16. But if he was a citizen of Israel as well,

wouldn't you consider it a conflict of interest, especially with the problems there? Other than that I don't thing anyone cares if he is Jewish. That is so 1960's when it was doubted that Kennedy could be elected because he was a Catholic.

[Walt Starr]

20. If he was actually a citizen of Israel

I would vote for Bush over Lieberman.

Seriously.

Better an idiot who only holds U.S. citizenship than anybody who has split loyalties.

[Forkboy]

12. Doesn't bother me at all to be honest

[Wonk]

13. I think Farrakhan started (or at least perpetuated) that rumor, fwiw...

Eric Fettman - The New York Post - October 20,2000

(snip)

On the NBC program this past Sunday, Farrakhan reiterated his claim that Lieberman has dual loyalties and charged that Jews have a "master-slave" relationship with blacks.

Asked point-blank if he regretted his assertion that Lieberman is a citizen of Israel, he said, "I can't regret that which is the truth," adding - no doubt charitably, at least in his mind - that Lieberman "has the right to dual citizenship." (For the record, Joe Lieberman is not an Israeli citizen.)

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2000/102000.htm

on edit: I don't vouch for the credibility of this info. I just did some googling to see what I could find and this popped up. If Lieberman is a dual citizen it's news to me.

[Maple]

15. I always understood it was illegal

But there are a lot of Canadians who seem to get US citizenship without giving up being a legal Canuck...so I googled it.

First entry is Italian...

"It is important to recognize that while it may once have been true that U.S. Citizens could not hold dual citizenship, U.S. Supreme Court decisions in the 1970s settled the issue once and for all: Dual citizenship for American citizens is legal."

http://www.arduini.net/tools/citizen.htm

[Walt Starr]

17. Yep, and I would never vote for anybody who held dual citizenship

Their loyalties are divided, there is no other way to see it.

[Maple]

18. Well apparently that's lot of Americans these days

http://www.usvisanews.com/memo457.html

With the advent of a united Europe and the continuing transformation into a one-world economy, many Americans are tracing their family roots hoping to find a lost relative to base their second passports on. Companies are feeling the need to make their employees more "shippable on demand" to meet the requirements of an integrated world business environment. As a result, many Americans are making claims for passports based on their European ancestry. With job opportunity growing in many European nations, the appeal of a two passport employee is increasing. Additionally, the growth of technologies like the world wide web are making it easier for persons to run two lives from two different countries with the mere click of a mouse. It is not illegal for an American to hold two passports provided they are citizens of both countries.

[Generic Other]

55. I think this fact has taken a bunch of us by surprise

We really are a rather "nationalistic, jingoistic" people as Indie Green has pointed out. But are others really any different? Don't all citizens love their country? I always believed the rightwingers were lying when they accused the left of lacking in love for their country. And I always assumed it was a given that I was the citizen of a jealous country who would have no other before it. Just like I am in a monogamous marriage.

I am surprised that "nationalistic, jingoistic" rightwingers would back Arnie. But again, most Americans are unaware of these rules for dual citizenship.

I know many German Americans who changed their names and quit speaking German during WWII, who renounced German identity to convince others they were "true" Americans. They sacrificed a great deal to be identified as Americans. The Japanese Americans too. For me, it's hard to believe others would fight so hard to retain dual citizenship when these groups fought so hard to be accepted as real Americans. Arab Americans are still facing this litmus test. I suspect Mexican Americans are not being offered dual citizenship opportunities. Am I wrong?

[Paschall]

40. I don't understand the "divided loyalties" argument

Beyond any specific vote in Congress say, where a conflict might arise, and where it would be easy to abstain, I don't understand what "divided loyalties" means.

Many many of us dual citizens have very strong ties to family in two nations. I think it is inhumane to expect citizens to abandon their foreign nationality on becoming US citizens. I know of no other country that demands this. (Though, in practice, this is no longer US policy as links provided on this thread show.)

The "divided loyalties" argument always brings to mind a couple with a single child. Are the couple's loyalties "divided" on the birth of a second? THAT is how visceral ties to a second homeland can be. Do we suspect the couple of abusing, neglecting, or betraying their first child by having the second? THAT is the red flag you are waving at dual nationals.

Rather that "divided loyalties" I'd say us dual nationals have "multiplied loyalties." It takes twice as much work to be a good citizen--keeping up with issues, pols, and voting--in two countries as it does in one.

[Paschall]

43. Maple, I posted this on a similar thread yesterday

It used to be US policy that any American citizen taking a foreign nationality, was automatically stripped of US citizenship. But this was changed thanks to a lot of grassroots lobbying by (mostly progressive) American expatriots. The human dramas arising from foreign marriages, divorces, and child custody suits were enormously complicated by this restrictive US code. Particularly since some countries automatically grant citizenship to foreign nationals on marriage or birth of a child. Now the burden is on the US government to prove that the US citizen's intent was to abandon American citizenship. For dual nationals it is fairly easy to prove the contrary--by holding assets in the US, by registering and voting in US elections, through ties with US family members, etc.

[Maple]

22. Dual Nationality For Americans

What Does It Mean To Have Dual Citizenship?
Emily Yoffe
Posted Tuesday, May 29, 2001, at 3:50 PM PT

Last week the White House announced it wanted John M. Klink, who holds dual U.S. and Irish citizenship, to head the U.S. State Department's Population, Refugees, and Migration Bureau. What does it mean to be a citizen of the United States and another country?

It means that as far as the United States is concerned, you are a citizen of the United States and have the same rights, privileges, and responsibilities as any other citizen, but that another country also recognizes you as a citizen of that nation. The U.S. State Department does not track the number of people who hold U.S. and other citizenships. As this State Department Web site points out, while the United States does not prevent dual citizenship, it does not encourage it either because of the potential for conflict in being subject to the laws of more than one nation. For dual citizens the country of residence is generally considered to have the greater claim on allegiance.

http://slate.msn.com/id/1007748/

And it links to:

http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html

which spells it out

[UnapologeticLiberal]

41. Lieberman does not have dual citizenship

At least I do not think he does. Do you have any proof?

I believe you are referring to a common misperception that many here hold that all Jews are automatically citizens of Israel. This is not true. As a Jew, if I were to move to Israel permanently, I would automatically be granted citizenship. But here in the US, I do not hold Israeli citizenship. I wish I did, so I could vote to get rid of Ariel Sharon (although Israel does not have absentee balloting except for diplomats). But I do not, and as far as I know, neither does Lieberman.

[CoffeePlease1947]

45. Only if they are in elected office in both countries

Otherwise it is clear that they prefer one citizenship over the other.


Mike

[Paschall]

47. For those who are interested

...this topic--with regard to Schwarzenegger--was discussed on another thread yesterday. There are some informative links there.

[onecitizen]

48. NO! nt

nt

[Generic Other]

52. Current Law on Naturalization means Arnie is a liar under oath

Retaining dual citizenship means Arnie lied under oath about something bigger than his dick. Citizenship laws for naturalization seem clear. In order to be naturalized one must declare under oath:

"to renounce and abjure absolutely and entirely all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which the applicant was before a subject or citizen..."

Now, I don't know what kind of hairsplitting some of the rest of you play to get around this rule, but in my book, Arnie's a liar and a security risk.

I agree with Walt Starr. If you are not willing to commit to being a US citizen, so much so that you lie when you are naturalized, I don't want to vote for you for public office.

[Paschall]

54. Hypotheticals

1) What if Arnie's parents had been American but were legal residents of France at the time of his birth? Arnie would have, by birth, both nationalities. Would he be equally suspect in your eyes?

2) What if Arnie had been an American citizen who was a legal resident of France and married a French woman? He would be entitled to French nationality, something to which US law poses no obstacle.

Why does his status as a naturalized American impose greater burdens on him than on an American citizen-by-birth? Why should it?

As others have pointed out on yesterday's thread on this topic, the oath you cite is not enforced. In fact, it's unenforceable. Some countries have no means--no procedures, no legal precedent--for renouncing citizenship. What do citizens of those countries do when they become naturalized Americans? But the oath is worse than that, it is severely anachronic. I know of no other country beside the US that demands such an oath of new citizens. Why are we the only ones that do? The oath of renunciation covers a wide range of rights; why do we demand that people abandon them?

Two examples of such rights might be worth mentioning: (1) As Sapphocrat illustrated in yesterday's thread, nationality means first and foremost the right to live, work, and make a home in a country. One never knows in life when personal or family circumstances might require you to move to your second homeland. But without that dual citizenship, you are just another (returning) immigrant faced with all the extremely complex procedure of obtaining those rights anew. And the possibility of getting turned away!
(2) Not all countries maintain consular services in all possible travel destinations. If you travel much internationally you may know how convenient and reassuring those services can be--for emergency aid, information about threats, replacing travel documents, even protection in extreme situations. People who hold two passports can address themselves to two "home" consulates for assistance.

How would allowing naturalized Americans to maintain those rights endanger anyone?

In Arnie's case, isn't pro-Austrian favoritism all that can reasonably be feared? How often do you think that's gonna be a conflict for the governor of California? I'd really like to know, GenericOther, what precisely is the fear here?

[Generic Other]

56. The oath has been enforceable for a great many Americans

The point is many of us had to make a choice, or had to fight to be accepted. We see others being allowed to make light of our sacrifices as if they were merely proof of nothing.

I am not against the dual citizenship idea per se, and your examples illustrate the complexity where birth and citizenship papers conflict, but even you must admit that when the French bashing started in the US, it must have felt rather uncomfortable to be a dual French-US citizen. Would Americans ever have asked such a person to choose? Probably so. And you are right, I would feel that was reprehensible because it would have sounded like all the French bashing did--petty and ugly. Nevertheless, it was a taste of what can happen if one appears to be vacillating about one's loyalty to the state.

The idea of defending such blind notions of loyalty does conflict with my view that no state has the right to expect such; however, there is some deeper instinct that refutes this belief I hold. That's why I haven't left the US even when I have found our actions repulsive. I didn't run away. I chose to stay. And fight my country's enemies "both foreign and domestic." No matter what, my heart and identity is forever intwined with my life in America.

Apparently, some Americans are free to make other choices. But not naturalized citizens. They are forced to take an oath. Arnie's dual citizenship means he broke his word. That's breaking a higher law than the law of the land IMO.

[Paschall]

57. What's that line?

"There are a lot of stories in the big city."

Everyone makes choices and maybe everyone has to learn to be accepted. I don't know.

I don't quite understand the reference in this sentence: "We see others being allowed to make light of our sacrifices as if they were merely proof of nothing." Maybe you could elaborate.

Oh, at the height of the French bashing, people were offended--and told me so--that I hadn't "made a choice." You say, "...it was a taste of what can happen if one appears to be vacillating about one's loyalty to the state." I think it was probably unconcious on your part, but you're right--when one "appears to be vacillating." But as you and I know from the French bashing itself, people often manage to believe they can see things that aren't there. If it so "appears," I say the "vacillating" is in the eye of the beholder.

It's interesting that you compare your situation to an immigrant's. I mean the people being naturalized are those that have left, "run away." But don't you think lots of them might have left their homelands for reasons other than the mere escape from foreign and domestic "enemies." They are not perhaps as "guilty" as you might imagine yourself to be in a similar situation.

I understand your point about Arnie's breaking his oath though.

And I very much agree with you on one point: "...my heart and identity is forever intwined with my life in America." So are mine. My life now is simply elsewhere.

[Generic Other]

58. Hard to explain

Some of us who were born after WWII remember the sacrifices others made to become "Americanized." German Americans changed their names, refused to allow their children to speak German. The Japanese spent the war years in concentration camps to prove their loyalty. Sent their sons into the military to fight. Obviously it was wrong to require these things, but they made the sacrifices willingly to prove they were good Americans. They renounced foreign citizenship and became Americans without reservation.

And yes, they had to burn their bridges behind them to do so. I guess that's why they do not take the idea of citizenship lightly.

Maybe, other Americans don't get such an intense emotonal reaction to dual citizenship issues because their identity has never been challenged.

It sounds to me as if holding dual French/US citizenship meant you also discovered what it feels like to be thus challenged of late. So maybe we are both unable to be totally objective on this issue.

Thanks for sharing your views with me. Whether we agree or not, I am certain that terrorists and Republicans who hate me no doubt hate you too. That we can agree on, right? ;)