Dear Nader voters and too-busy-to-vote liberals,

[UdoKier]

fuck you very much.

The Nader votes alone would've been enough to keep Iowa out of Bush's slimy clutches.

Even if Kerry wins, it's without a popular majority. I'm disgusted with this country for having no collective conscience whatsoever, and with the Naderites for putting their worthless ideological purity ahead of our country.

America deserves whatever crap it gets now. Electoral vote notwithstanding, Bush has gotten the popular vote. America has endorsed paranoia, xenophobia, lies and corruption by a significant margin. I'm thoroughly disillusioned with this sick, ignorant country right now.

[charlie]

1. Cashing in already?

We're about to find out what Kerry is made of. And if Congressional Dems can muster a collective spine between them.

Let's see what happens. It's a longer than long shot, I know, but maybe... our guys will finally wake up and surprise the shit out of us.

[UdoKier]

5. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the collective will of the nation, not the letter of the law. Kerry may be able to pull it out. I hope so. But the mandate was with the giggling murderer.

Unless it's proven that Diebold fabricated Bush's popular vote lead, our country has proven itself unworthy of the responsibility of choosing a leader.

We have earned a massive collective karmic slap in the face today.

[charlie]

21. A mandate not honestly won

is no mandate. Yes, it's sick and shameful that Dubya has an enormous bloc of support in the country, but we knew that going in. There are millions of votes yet to be counted and a shitload of electoral crimes to be contested. Dubya may be denied his mandate yet.

[AverageJoe]

2. Yes, fuck Nader

and fuck ANYBODY who voted for him. Period.
The whole Nader candidacy is truly a high stakes IQ test: You vote for Nader, you're stupidly voting to elect the candidate most antithetical to your own interests. You vote for your own natural candidate--John Kerry or Al Gore--and you're voting smart.

If anybody reading these words voted for Ralph Nader, I hope you enjoy the blood of our service personnel on your hands, the blood of innocent Iraqis on your hands, the consolidation of power of George Bush on your hands.

Ralph Nader is George Bush's sock puppet and if you fell for the ruse, you're at best a danger to your country....

[Devils Advocate NZ]

3. Save your venom for the 8 percent of registered dems who voted for Bush

There was EIGHT TIMES as many of them as Nader voters.

On Edit: By the way you are wrong.

Bush 720,603
Kerry 709,026
Nader 5,564

You'll notice that the margin is double the Nader vote.

[AverageJoe]

4. Okay, they suck too

But that doesn't let the Nader supporters off the hook. A vote for Bush is a vote for Bush. So is a vote for Nader.

Venom? Gimme a break.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

7. Once again you are wrong...

Do you seriously think that people who voted for nader would have voted for Kerry if Nader hadn't been on the ballot?

With EVERYTHING that has happened - Greens not endorsing him, Moore not endorsing him etc - it is more likely these people would not have voted for ANYONE if Nader hadn't been there, so your argument is just plain wrong.

Now the 40 odd thousand registered Dems who voted for Bush, what is THEIR excuse?

[AverageJoe]

8. Who'd you vote for?

Me, I voted for Kerry.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

10. What is this? Loyalty oaths time?

For you information, I can't vote in US elections as I am not a citizen. That doesn't mean bullshit shouldn't be pointed out when I see it.

[AverageJoe]

12. Oh, I see....

Did you expect Ralph to be the next American president?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

17. Of course not - However that doesn't mean BULLSHIT shoudl go unchallanged.

You blame 5500 Nader voters while TOTALLY IGNORING THE DIRECT ACTIONS OF 40000 DEMOCRATS WHO VOTED FOR BUSH.

How hard is that to understand? In your attempts to look for scapegoats, you are ignoring the OBVIOUS in favour of the EASY.

[RapidCreek]

81. It's hard for him to understand for the same reason it is hard for the

DLC to understand....a lack of understanding which is responsible for both Gore and Kerrys loss and Nader even being on the ticket.

Keep doing the same stupid shit over and over....keep whinning the same stupid whine over and over...keep loosing over and over.

It's really pretty easy to understand...unless you are a moron....or it was your intention to loose then manufacture a plausible denial of complicity.


RC

[AverageJoe]

11. and by the way

a vote for Nader IS a vote for Bush. No two ways about it.

No way is Nader going to win.

The only candidate remotely similar to Nader is Kerry. Kerry is also the only left-leaning candidate with any chance of winning the election. A sane person who believes in "green" values would have to vote for Kerry.

A vote for Nader is nothing more than a vote for Bush.

Jesus.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

14. Bullshit.

A vote for BUSH is a vote for BUSH, and 40,000 REGISTERED DEMOCRATS DID EXACTLY THAT.

But did you jump down THEIR throats? Of course not - Nader is the devil and HE is to blame, not Dems who vote against their own party. :eyes:

[AverageJoe]

16. No, as I said before, they suck too

Any Democrat who voted for Bush is delusional. Any human being who voted for Bush is delusional. Any human being who voted for Nader is a delusional. And a fool.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

18. Ok so where did you mention them in the original post?

In fact why did I have to point them out to you before you even acknowledged the FAR GREATER damage done by them?

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[Devils Advocate NZ]

23. Why don't you?

I mean really? Blame Nader all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the Democrats who VOTED FOR BUSH are to blame, NOT Nader.

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[Devils Advocate NZ]

28. A game? Yeah ok, I don't really care about this stuff...

That's why I have spent 2 years here trying to get Dems to fight the corporate takeover of the world.

Of course, it is MY fault now too huh?

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[Devils Advocate NZ]

34. Why doesn't he blow it off at Bush and the Dems who supported him?

Why do THEY get a free pass?

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[A-Schwarzenegger]

48. Why do you pretend to care?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

54. Listen to yourself... You KNOW that this election and all future ones

are VERY DAMN IMPORTANT for the whole WORLD.

We ALL have a stake in this, and we ALL need to do what it takes to get these arseholes out of power. The ONLY way that can be accomoplished is to convice people like the Nader voter that the Democrat party DOES want them and respect them.

Do you think this sort of attack, and the attacks over the last 4 years against them, is HELPING towards that goal?

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[silverpatronus]

35. you sound like coulter...

take a deep breath and go drink some water there bud. we're supposed to be above ad hominem attacks around here. i know people are upset, but don't go cannibalising. the right is just waiting for you to turn on each other like this.

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[silverpatronus]

46. c'mon friend, i'm on your side

'you sound like coulter' is an attempt to get you to stop and think about what you're saying, not an ad hom attack. i'm sorry if you took it that way.

it's not over yet, why is everybody being so defeatist?

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[Devils Advocate NZ]

66. Never seen SNL actually....

And I am sure this is making you fell better. But when you calm down, remember that those Nader voters are the people the Dems need to win over.

Calling them names is NOT going to help that.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

68. Seriously, any person who voted for Nader in 2004 after 2000

is NOT winoverable. Not unless the Dems run Nader.
And how will that turn out?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

80. I owe you an apology, too, silver.

I'm sorry.

[silverpatronus]

82. no worries...

:)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

83. thanks

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[AverageJoe]

33. What's your glitch?

eight to one isn't the issue. The issue is the individual voter who makes a choice on who to support.

And by the way, I lashed out at the Nader supporters because I thought they might be reading this. Any Democrats who voted for Bush surely wouldn't be here. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for me to slap them for their choice.

Just out of curiosity, who DID you want to win the White House? Aw, fuck it. Who cares?

[charlie]

38. Aw cripes

DANZ has been here a long time. And he's here because his country went through damn near the same thing years ago. He posted a long series of accounts of what went down in NZ, a harrowing cautionary tale. It was an eye-opener for most of us.

This isn't remotely necessary. You guys are uncorking your anger at the wrong guy.

[AverageJoe]

47. Uh, he started it

If you'll review the thread, I think you'll see what I mean.

[RapidCreek]

84. No you started it...with an flame bait post.

Here's a little quote for you to mull over.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,
but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?


RC

[Devils Advocate NZ]

49. its all right - they need to vent

Far better they vent at me, than a possible future Dem voter.

If they could only see that bringing the Nader voters back to the Dem party is ESSENTIAL they would reconsider attacking them.

In the mean time, I'm not worried about the attacks, they are clearly very frustrated (who wouldn't be?) and if it helps them to get it out of their systems, then so be it.

Thanks though. :-)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

69. And thanks to you.

Seriously. You sounded like you could take it.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

76. And I apologize to you DANZ.

I went too far and I'm sorry.

[charlie]

6. Nah

They'll just get a cute name... lessee, Reagan Democrats is getting threadbare, it'll probably be Dubya Democrats this time... and the DLC and their cohorts will hector the DNC to move heaven and earth to woo them back.

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[m berst]

39. so sorry

Hi Devils Advocate NZ. So sorry for the way people ae behaving here. It is not just Nader supporters who have been targeted. Any of us who suggested that the party should not take a centrist course, and should not play it safe, were also viciously attacked for disloyalty and negativity.

The one thing that many Dems are unwilling to criticise is the DLC center of the road imitate-the-Republicans policies and themes. If we embraced strong liberals and progressive ideals, we could do no worse than we have, yet we are told we need to appear moderate so as not to offend and to be practical. Nader and the Greens represented a voice for returning to principle over practicality. Rather than heeding the call, the party opted for the safe middle course, wooing and catering to the swing voter and the moderate suburbanites and shying away from taking strong positions.

So we gave up principle for the sake of practicality - "elecability" they said - and have now run the risk of having neither.

Many will attack Nader now because he is a reminder of the true cause of the troubles the party has - it's weak, corporate friendly, centrist positions, and its complete failure to take a clear and steady stand in opposition to a very real threat of fascism when it was so desperately needed.

Thank you for taking an interest in our election, and again, I apologize for the behavior of a few of my fellow countrymnen.

P.S. - Got a spare room?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

45. Thanks for one of those "I told you so" posts

[m berst]

52. I beg your pardon

I have been consistently saying precisely this for 15 years, consistently, passionately all over the country.

If this is "one of those posts" in your eyes, then I am sorry for you. Look at your posts, and tell me what category those should be in. Rather than just spew venom at me now, why not answer in a civil and rational manner?

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[RapidCreek]

86. I didn't make it but your welcome.....I was telling people so

two years ago when they decided to pimp themselves out to the same warped logic the DLC depended upon to loose to Bush the first time.

.....yes I told you so.....then and now....what remains to be seen is if folks like yourself follow the Democratic Loosership Council down the same path of failure once again.

RC

[AverageJoe]

50. Do you have the faintest idea where Nader got his money

and all those signitures? Nader's primary support comes from the right wing. His progressive supporters are being duped.

[m berst]

57. I am not defending Nader

So I don't know or care where he got his money. We have allowed the Democratic party to become awash in corporate money, and our government is for sale to the highest bidder, as are our means of communication - the public air waves. It would seem to me that addressing those issues would be a lot smarter than worrying about where Nader "got his money."

[AverageJoe]

63. Oh no?

"Nader and the Greens represented a voice for returning to principle over practicality. Rather than heeding the call, the party opted for the safe middle course, wooing and catering to the swing voter and the moderate suburbanites and shying away from taking strong positions."

Nader took money from the Republicans.
Nader collected signatures from the Republicans.
Nader worked to defeat Gore.
Nader worked to defeat Kerry.
Nader had no intention--or if he did, he was insane for thinking he could pull it off--of defeating Bush.

Nader is in NO WAY principled.

Hell's bells, I want the Democratic party to veer left, but Ralph Nader is not the left. Nader is a Republican shill. He's a mole. Lord God, wake up.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

64. Look, I don't blame them, I am just as angry as they are..

except I have a detachment that they can't quite reach just yet. I KNOW they are hurting and they have tried so hard to win this one - which isn't over yet - that they are lashing out at anything that moves.

But I am sure that when they have vented all that frustration and rage they will think about it and realise that while it felt good it doesn't help.

If Kerry should lose this one, there are still elections in 2 years time, and there is another Presidential election in 4 - we HAVE to start fighting those elections NOW. That means winning back the disillusioned and disaffected - including the Nader voters. Attacking them is NOT going to do that.

Now while I agree with you to a degree, that is unimportant now. What is important is getting it right from now on, and I know I sure as hell am not going to stop pushing for what is right.

So, although some of the posts here made me lose it a bit - I have nothing but love for these people. They are the people who can make this happen. And when they calm down, I am sure they will.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

67. And I love you, too.

[m berst]

9. please

I know you are angry. Please. It never should have been close enough for the few people you are blasting to have had any effect. For 9 months people insisted that a centrist, safe, appeal to the swing voters, and be strong on defense campaign was the practical route and would succeed. It was a gamble. Critics of that were called purists and idealists and worse starting the day after Iowa and as recently as this afternoon. The party pulled together as much as we could have ever hoped behind the strategy that the party chose to use.

Don't lash out at people, please.

[silverpatronus]

13. amen...

a voice of reason in the mad mob.

[Kanary]

53. thank you, m berst! All these landmines going off.........

It's so very discouraging to see the implosion that dems cause for themselves.

Blame Nader.

Blame people who didn't vote (never mind that there wasn't an effort to reach out to them.....)

Blame, for cryinginabucket!, the young people, and say they all deserve to be sent to Iraq.....

Blame "purists", who had the gall to want their party to return to it's roots.....

Blame EVERYTHING except looking at real reasons why this candidacy never caught fire......

Months and months ago, political experts said this election was the Dem candidate's to lose. While there are many factors, some of it must be laid to the feet of the party, and the candidate himself. Ignoring that factor, as it did 4 years ago, only continues the inevitable destruction of the party.

Sometimes, one must look into a mirror, and that includes a political party.

Democrats *USED* to be able to do some introspection. Unless we return to that, nothing will change, and that includes the losses.

Thanks for your words of wisdom, and peace.

I wish they would be received in the generous spirit in which you offered them.

Peace......

Kanary

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[Ladyhawk]

65. I think the election was stolen and that the bushies are to blame.

Maybe my tinfoil hat is too tight, but I don't think so. Something's not right about this election.

[m berst]

70. very clearly so

To me, at least. I strongly believe that more people voted for Kerry today than Bush. Will the party fight this time, or concede for the sake of the illusion of peace? What can we do now that will be most constructive? Does the party leadership know that we will stand behind them, strongly, peacefully, forcefully, with determination and courage? Will we? Or will we descend into an orgy of hatred and blame and infighting?

The tinfoil hat people were ridiculed and ignored all along. People didn't want to confront what was right in front of their eyes, and wanted to approach this as a standard-normal election.

Someone accused me of making "one of those I told you so" posts. Guilty as charged. Have told, am telling, will keep telling you so. And what is so is that an organized conspiracy has been going on to subvert and destroy our democracy. The election was a mere trifle for them. So long as we are weak and divided, we are powerless.

All hope was put into a clever and safe campaign and a get out the vote effort. In normal times, against a fair and honest opponent, that would work. But we are not up against a fair and honest opponent. Those who have been pointing that out have been shouted down and called negative and worse.

Many have warned that we were using a flyswatter to bring down a charging elephant. We can bring that charging elephant down anytime we want to. We just need to tkae a stand, together.

[Kanary]

72. "We just need to take a stand, together"

I wonder what it will take for that lesson to be learned???

sigh.....

witnessing this is much more depressing than the election returns.

Because this sort of name-calling and blaming means that NOTHING will change.

NOTHING.

:cry:

Kanary

[AverageJoe]

73. This just isn't true

"But we are not up against a fair and honest opponent. Those who have been pointing that out have been shouted down and called negative and worse."

I can't think of a single post I have ever read on DU that took the stance that Bush was a fair and honest opponent. Not ever.

Okay, good night. I wish you peace, one and all.

[Kanary]

71. That is *part* of it.

I said that in my post. Please, we are friends, so please do not do the DU thing of only reading what you want to read, and throwing away the rest.

I said that there are many factors, and that one of the factors is NOT LEARNING THE LESSONS FROM THIS VERY SAME THING 4 YEARS AGO.

And one of those lessons is that attacking each other is a sure way to destroy the party!!

This whole thing is juvenile and ridiculous. Blame, blame, blame. Bash, bash, bash.

And, no, it isn't "tension" from the election. It's an easy way to escape looking for our own mistakes, and seeking to correct them.

Which do *you* really believe will gain more votes....... bashing those who have a different vision, or reaching out to them, and listening to them, and learning from them?

*THAT"S* the crux of the matter.

Kanary

[A-Schwarzenegger]

75. I apologize, m berst.

I went over the line. I'm sorry.

[m berst]

77. no worry, nerves are frayed

Much is at stake.

Thanks.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

78. Thanks back. If you ever need to rant, I owe you one.

[Union Thug]

43. I sucked it up and voted Kerry....

and I do like Kerry in a lot of ways (not my first choice, but a damned fine man nonetheless), but my heart lies with the Greens and Socialists.

If I could must enough strength to vote for Kerry, I can't imagine why so many registered dems would vote for the chimp. Yeah, blame Naderites, but also blame crossover dems and a country full of jesus freaks and rednecks who believe in some talking snake nonsense and creationism, over science.

I'm 40 years old, and every year I become more radical.

[Robbie67]

44. don't do it

don't go looking for someone else to blame

[UdoKier]

74. Don't do what?

Don't look for someone else to blame? I kept informed as I could while America joyfully wallowed in ignorance and reality shows. I donated to the campaigns money I could not afford and gave time I did not have.

Am I supposed to blame the corporate whore media? I'm no genius and I saw through them.

Diebold? Bush did just fine in many areas without the fishy touchscreens.

Today I am facing the fact that I am a citizen of a country that is either fundamentally stupid or fundamentally corrupt (they voted for Bush knowing full well the Iraq war was a sham, but THEY JUST WANT THE OIL FOR THE US TOO).

Either way, I will no longer call myself an American. I'm just me.

[TankLV]

79. GIve it a rest.

I understand how you feel, but I'm just so tired of it all.

We've got to reclaim the Democratic Party.

I just hope everyone will be safe and secure for the next four years.

[Kanary]

85. Exactly. It has all gone waaay too far. Attacking each other

and turning away the very people we need is self-destructive, to say the least.

The healing needs to start here and now. Thank you for the reminder.

Kanary, one of those who most likely will NOT be safe and secure........

[dpt223]

87. blame the democratic leadership

people vote for nader because they see the two major parties as achoice between a moderate party and a right wing party.

the democratic party needs to move left and quit with the ineffective centrist move.

[TexasSissy]

88. Ditto....and ditto....and kick!