The simple reason why John Kerry CANNOT win a national election-

[MiltonLeBerle]

It has nothing to do with his policy positions, his political resume, his religion, or his wealth-

He's just too creepy looking.

Like it or not, television has changed the way our society thinks and acts, and plays a bigger part in the politcal process than a candidates politics.
I saw "JFK" on Meet The Press on Sunday, and every time he'd try to look into the camera and give a toothy smile, I'd wince from how uncomfortable it was- for him to do, and for me to watch.

He projects a bit of an arrogant attitude, almost like he feels a certain entitlement to the nomination. Trying to change his image at this point would be as disastrous, as it almost was for Al Gore- who didn't seem to have as big a stick shoved as far up his ass to begin with as Kerry does.

Just my opinion, but my gut tells me that Kerry doesn't stand a chance.

[Northwind]

1. I predict

We will now see about 200 replies by people telling you that you are shallow, looks don't matter, and it is sad that you cannot see past this to the issues.

And even after all that, you'll STILL be right.

[TennesseeWalker]

25. I'd say your right, Northwind.

He's probably going to get flamed, but there is definitely something about Kerry that doesn't seem to go over well with the average Joe.

I've listened to him speak, and I'm sure he'd make a fine president. I don't think the originator of this thread is being shallow; I think he's saying most of the American people are pretty shallow. This is kind of "American Idol" for president.

Hey...what happened to that FOX show where they were going to run a candidate for president? Wonder if they'd win?

[HFishbine]

2. Perspective

I guess it's a matter of perspective. I think he looks distinguished.

[WindRavenX]

27. My thoughts as well

And if people think Kerry is creepy looking, good god, what do they think Bush looks likes? :shrug:
Compared to Bush, Kerry is elegant looking.

[dfong63]

3. are you kidding?

He projects a bit of an arrogant attitude, almost like he feels a certain entitlement to the nomination.

that's nothing compared to Smirky. i'm a Dean supporter, but i have to say that factor is NOT why. (hint: it's more like his Iraq war vote.)

[uptohere]

22. I don't think he's kidding at all

but he's not nearly as arrogant as Mr Dean. Not really trying to slam anyone but the truth is the truth.

[ButterflyBlood]

4. and Chimp Boy looks sooooo much better

:eyes:

[MiltonLeBerle]

33. To the average American?

Yes.

[waggawagga]

5. Hmmm

I would have agreed with you before 9/11. Maybe voters are looking for a dark knight. I think what you're saying is possibly true, though. Kerry might come in second in NH and the big surprise in later primaries will be just how little support he has among common voters. A lot of support for Kerry right now does come from the fact that he seems to be the choice of many higher ups in the party. It's possible they're the only ones who feel passionate about him. We don't know.

[Nashyra]

6. Wrong

I'll not mention others because it is a non argument.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. It's

not like he's running against Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, George Clooney, Josh Hartnett, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck,Denzel Washington, and Angela Basset.

ROTFLMFAO

Truth be told I can only think of two presidents in all of history I would want with me in a club if I was trying to meet women...

[devarsi]

20. Ok, damn it, I'll bite

Clinton and Kennedy?

[devarsi]

21. On second thought

I choose Nixon and Bush1.

Nobody can look bad nest to those two...

[dudeness]

42. or dudeness..

:)

[SayitAintSo]

8. Who gives you more comfort when picturing ....

Their 'finger on the button', in the heat of making life and death decisions, balancing multiple priorities, multi-tasking, rebuilding our lost stature in the global community.... etc ... etc.....

Kerry wins it for me hands down.

I don't see it as a beauty contest.

One man's arrogance, is another man's confidence.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. I Watched Him On MTP

I thought he was the most informed and articulate candidate in the race.

That's not an endorsement just an objective observation.

[TheDonkey]

32. I thought that once, but then...

-edit- I was responding to original post, not this! My bad.

I realized how butt-ugly Dubya is.
WOW.
He's not an attractive man anyway you cut it, his laugh is down right scary, his eyes are black and hidden, and his hair is usually always a mess.

So if Bush can get apporvals in the 50s then Kerry would be able to blow him away because at least he doesn't hunch. Kerry also has a good laugh, unlike dubya.

Looks DO matter in elections, but Kerry is by far not unattractive enough to say he won't win based off apperance. If looks mattered everything Edwards would be #1 by a landslide with Brad Pitt as his running mate.

[MiltonLeBerle]

34. Smirk has a much more camera-friendly smile than Kerry

[Ernesto]

9. Gotta agree with ya.

His accent ain't gonna help him too much either. Remmember, Chimp's "heartland" gets to vote in national elections.

[Cocoa]

36. I'm a midwesterner who finds E. Coast accents grating

and I was thinking listening to Kerry on MTP that Kerry's voice sounds better than all the other voices combined.

Does he even have an accent? Listen to Ted Kennedy or Ed Markey, then listen to Kerry.

I think he looks like almost impossibly presidential. His hair and face are shaped like Andrew Jackson. The cartoonists will love him.

I was distracted, however, by how much face he has under his mouth. It didn't bother me, but it was distracting.

I didn't think he looked arrogant, but he did have a mannerism he should lose, he kind of snorted a couple of times when Russert was playing some clips.

Anyway, these are such minor things, more for fun than anything else. To say they disqualify him is just really really dumb.

[waggawagga]

11. If We're Just Going on Looks....

Dean wouldn't be president, either, because he looks too much like an energetic high school student body president. Clark has potential but he comes off as a smirky knowitall (captain of the debating team who has few friends?). Gephardt is the president of the booster club who spends the night of the dance at this table. Edwards is the smart jock who is promising but he's a sophomore. Kucinich is the head of the AV squad. Graham is the kid your mother sometimes asks about but you don't know him because you've never had classes together. Sharpton and Mosley-Braun sit at the black table in the cafateria, she's nice, he's funny, but you don't know them that well. And then there's Kerry. Who is he? The fact that nothing comes fast might be bad or good.

[uptohere]

23. naw, he's the chief trustee at the highbrow private school

lets face it, the guy has money, lots of money and he looks like it.

I have no problem with him being wealthy, I wish I had his money. He just does not look like someone who has any concept of that the world outside his electrified gates is like

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

13. Heard Lincoln couldn't win today, too.

Sorry if his face is unattractive to you. My wife thinks Kerry's countenance expresses his character: intelligent, honest, courageous, earnest, devoted. I think if I'd experienced what he has — from losing his family friends JFK and RFK to combat in Vietnam to fighting the BFEE — I might look like that, too.

That said, it IS the TV age and about half of Americans use television as their primary source of news and information. So, appearances are important for those who judge a book by its cover. For those who THINK, CHARACTER trumps appearance.

[Jim Sagle]

14. I did this thread yesterday, and IMO NBC gimmicked the cameras.

He looked cadaverous on MTP, but he looked fine during a brief C-SPAN sidewalk conference immediately afterwards.

Don't believe the media - they not only fuck with your mind, they fuck with your eyes.

If JFK gets the nomination, he'll run through w like crap through a goose. w will be ashamed to show himself in public.

[calimary]

15. Sad to say, that IS how some people vote.

I clearly remember a few campaigns ago when there were people who actually said they wouldn't vote for Dick Gebhardt because HE HAD NO EYEBROWS.

JEEZ!! I WISH I was making that up.

I disagree with you about Kerry's looks. I don't have any problem with his looks. AND, if you're just talking looks, he has the height advantage. Some people do simplistically perceive leadership in physical height. I remember that comment, frequently, being made about Reagan.

Also, I note your reference to Kerry's appearance of entitlement. I think you're correct on that, to some extent. He was the sharpest knife in the drawer at first, even moreso than Lieberman who was supposedly, at one time, the "annointed one" to carry the torch. Your contention is also supported by all the mainstream media articles and commentaries that talk about Howard Dean coming outta nowhere and stealing the thunder - and the place at the front of the line - that was presumed to be Kerry's. I don't object to that "entitlement" on Kerry's part. It was appropriate. And he has, indeed, got some good strong points in his favor that deservedly make him stand out from the pack.

That said, Kerry stands to lose out NOT because of his looks so much as his support of the war. And to a lesser extent, on the tax cuts and Patriot Act - stuff that speaks to his willingness to let himself be steamrolled by the thugs in the White House, even if, in his heart of hearts, he thought those ideas weren't worthy of support. If he still went along with 'em, then it's telling about him, and it's telling the likely Democratic voters - many of whom are fired up and mighty angry about this capitulation - that he's not their guy. Same way with ANY OTHER CANDIDATES IN CONGRESS OR THE SENATE WHO ESSENTIALLY, AND SPINELESSLY, COWED AND BOWED AND RUBBER-STAMPED ALL THE CRAP CHIMPY AND HIS HENCHMEN WERE TRYING TO JAM DOWN EVERYBODY'S THROATS.

Remember all of us who were screaming about how the Dems had no spine? Well, too many of 'em are running for president now, and it's no wonder they haven't caught fire as somebody like Howard Dean has.

[CWebster]

51. Good post

.

[SayitAintSo]

16. BTW - anybody going to the Kerry campaign kickoff tomorrow

in Charleston SC @ Patriots Point ? (aptly named). I plan to be there. Max Cleland will introduce Kerry. I'll be there with another DU'er - Carolina - love to hook up !

[comradebillyboy]

17. if a person thinks he deserves to be president

that individual has to be pretty arrogant. some can cloak their arrogance in dignity (ronnie ray guns), disguise it with affability (the big dog) or glory in it like the shrub.

[Coffee Coyote]

18. my unpopular opinion

A year or so ago, I told his boosters that Kerry, rightly or wrongly, will be painted by the media (with help from Rove - that is one area where I DO buy into his influence) as a "northeastern elite liberal", etc. Sure, Kerry will fight back more than Dukakis ever did (not hard to beat there), but the effort will eventually overwhelm him. He simply does not have Clinton's almost genetic political instincts for political combat.

Kerry will not be a good nominee, and I hope he, (as well as Lieberman) drops out soon.

NONE of the candidates inspire me, so anyone thinking I am Dean plant will just to have to eat it.

[salin]

19. Dean Plant? Hmmmmmmm

Always thought you were more of a gladiola plant ;-)

[Coffee Coyote]

38. Will I ever make it to 7th grade????

:D

[salin]

48. Gladiolas grace the

sophomore hallway :D

[MiltonLeBerle]

24. I am underwhelmed by the choices so far as well.

I caught a mild case of the Dr. Dean Fever early on, but I found that it could be fairly easily cured by doing a little research on the man from Vermont, his past positions and policies, and the actual content behind his words.

It seems to me that our true candidate has yet to reveal themselves.

we'll see.

[Kamika]

26. i agree

And it sucks totally but i agree. Thanks tv..

[MiltonLeBerle]

28. Exactly.

Obviously, the people who post here are probably a little more...a LOT more polically adept than probably 99% of Americans, and concentrate more on the actual words being said, than on how they're being delivered, and the physical appearance of the person doing the delivery.
We're a TV nation, and the TV cameras are less-than-kind to Kerry.
It may not be fair, but it's a fact of life that those of us who fall in the "less than attractive" category have lived with all or most of our lives, and understand all to well- physical attractiveness is worth the extra points that give it's people a leg up on the competition.

[Ein]

29. Abe Lincoln was creepy looking.

So was Nixon, but Dem's were kind of in a hole there. Reagan was creepy to the bone. I think looks have little to do with it, overall

[MiltonLeBerle]

31. Lincoln came along way before television, too

Reagan was not "creepy to the bone" in the eyes of a lot of people, at least not so much when he first came around- and as an actor, knew how to work the camera.
If looks have little to do with it, why do pretty much all of the candidates hire stylists?
And funny that you should mention Nixon- TV killed him against the debates with Kennedy, and may have very well cost him a very close election.
Muskie was destoyed by video images of him crying over the treatment of his wife in the press.
In the age of television, politics has become very different, and MUCH more appearance driven.

[ryharrin]

30. He does look good in older pictures of him though.

My biggest problem with him is simply that he puts me to sleep when he talks.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

35. That is part of it

Also, the press just does not seem to like him...his hometown paper is dedicated to digging up dirt and making issues out of the stupidest things like whether a speech about Roe v. Wade was actually Kerry's first statement in the Senate or his third...and they are going to do to him the same thing they did to Gore.

I am very surprised, also, that the GOP attack machine has not brought out several things that I thought would be a big issue for Kerry - being from "Taxachusetts" (I am just giving you the GOP spin - I was born in Massachusetts and I love that state!), having served as Dukakis' lieutenant governor, his opposition to the death penalty (the very issue that killed Dukakis, from what I understand), and all the other "out of the mainstream" liberal votes he must have cast if he has only a 6% rating from the ACU.

These are all things that make him attractive to me, but they are issues that the GOP is going to use against him and I am surprised that they have not already.

[Keithpotkin]

37. but dean can be freaky looking

and im a dean fan.

[gate of the sun]

39. I don't feel looks should be a reason to vote for anyone

well honestly all the dem candidates may fall about short of Adonis. Please lets get rid of the idea that looks are a strong feature in elections....please let's be honest gw wouln't be in gq and clinton is no fashion model either. It's not a strong or intelligent argument.

[MiltonLeBerle]

47. who cares what you feel?

The fact is, it's a VERY strong argument, because A LOT of people will base their vote on how the candidate looks, whether you want them to or not. That's just how it works.
There are also A LOT of people who won't vote for a candidate that they feel has no chance of winning, even if that candidate best reflects their personal views, because they somehow feel that if they vote for the losing candidate, they somehow lose too...??(I've never been able to figure out the logic- or lack thereof, of that way of thinking.)

[TheDonkey]

40. He's tall!

And not Goofy tall like Bradley. Put Kerry and Dubya on stage for a hand shake and chimpboy will look like a battered child.

[oasis]

41. By November 2004, most voters will be tired of looking at the Chimp.

So if we're going to go by looks, you have to factor that in.

[GalleryGod]

43. Whistling Past the BRATTLEBORO graveyard!?!

Everyone has a PAST:nopity:
Rove will find it.
Then exploit it with $100 mil "loose change"

[loyalsister]

44. This thread echos a lot of what I've been hearing

Heard a guy say the other day that he thought Kerry looked presidential because he's ugly. Have heard the liberal elite BS more than once.
John Kerry and Jay Leno are two people who I really don't like to look at. Kerry's eyes bug me and I am grossed out by Leno's chin. I hate looking at * much much more because the smirk turns my stomach.
I definitely wouldn't use it as a voting measure. But for those that do, I guess if I consider myself somewhat average there's hope in the fact that the Tonight show is still running. :)
It's true that people use it. All kinds of weird things influence people's voting. I have been hearing constantly that Kucinich is not a presidential name.

[dean4america]

45. hmm..

I submit that Kerry *looked* (in the visual sense) kind of, well, stone-carved, dead-to-the-world boring on MTP, but the content of it was fine (save for the little bit abot the war stance). However, I did notice a few times when he was trying to smile and look relaxed... it was kind of working/kind of not working... maybe a relaxed John Kerry just comes across that way.

After seeing whistle ass speak to the union today, I think a large, inanimate piece of granite in the shape of a person could out-debate him and look good doing it, so who knows, right?

(PS, In the essnece of fairness, Dean is pretty stiff in his one-on-one interviews, too.... but he connects amazingly well in front of groups).

[Shanty Oilish]

46. Cute as a $20 bill

Old Hickory reincarnate. What's not to like?
Is Bush lovely?
Wait 'til they debate. Volume or mute, Kerry wins.

[salin]

49. the big deal?

more grousing over things that in the end do NOT make the difference. Unless of course people thing that either georgebush was a 'hunk' :eyes: Or that GeorgeHWalker Bush was elected BECAUSE of Dan Quayle :eyes:

[CWebster]

50. And he has a personality to match

Sorry.

[sendero]

52. media age is here

I have several disparate points :)

1) comparing Kerry to Lincoln has no value, there was no TV then

2) I'm not convinced that Kerry's 'looks' are a problem, but I don't find him an inspiring speaker at all

3) folks talking about how "ugly" Bush or Reagan look might consider that if you really don't like someone, their visage goes negative to you. If you are in love with someone, regardless of their objective attractiveness, they are beautiful to *you*

4) we live in a media dominated society and wishing it were not so is not going to influence any election results

[PAMod]

53. If all else is "equal", the physical package could make the difference

By "physical package" I mean looks, voice, manner.

Many people won't vote for someone they don't want to look at on TV for 4 years. Is that shallow? Of course it is. That doesn't make it any less true.

Kerry isn't beautiful, but he looks very presidential. One potential problem is that even in a golf shirt or rolled up sleeves he looks like he wouldn't want to get dirty. Also, he looks like he wouldn't know (or care) what a loaf of bread costs (remember "LAMAR!")

Dean is probably the most imposing, physically - though I read that he's 5'9, which could be a problem to some of the "many". He looks serious and determined, but is quick to smile - and he always looks like he's ready to help with the heavy lifting. People like that.

Have we had a thread yet on what actor looked most presidential while playing the president?