Kerry's medals

[lancemurdoch]

There is a rumour floating around about Kerry, which due to the supposed reporter involved being unnamed makes me think it's an urban legend, that he had two sets of medals and was hypocritical about them and the like. I seriously doubt it's true, especially since no one ever names the reporter or paper who supposedly discovered this, which is one of the clearest signs of an urban legend - it's a "reporter", but for some reason the person conveying the info is unable to find the reporter's name, and no one else can.

Does anyone know of Kerry's staff disabusing these rumors?

[molly]

1. Let's ask first off who you support?

this has been rehashed and rehashed and rehashed - so why did you post this thread? This is easy enough to research - or is that too difficult a task for you?

[lancemurdoch]

2. well...

I did some research on it and found nothing. His staff has not replied to me. I'm not going to make a project out of it. I didn't even go into detail about the alleged duplicity like people usually do, who are not posting in places where people would know. There are a dozen Democratic candidates, how am I supposed to know the proper replies to rumours about them? I do know Kerry was in VVAW so there is some feasibility to it although I don't believe it.

[molly]

3. Here..

look at Will's thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=262154

[Cocoa]

15. ah, the pure thirst for knowledge...

Glad to hear you're just innocently looking for info, and not just posting this to spread a rumor about someone during their presidential campaign.

Welcome to DU! :toast:


p.s. did you try Google for your research?

[Octafish]

4. Hi, Lance. Here's the story.

John Kerry served as skipper of a Fast River Patrol Boat, sort of a PT-Boat used to raise cain and ferry commandos up and down the Mekong River. One day, his ship caught hellfire from one of the river banks. Instead of high-tailing it out of there, like a coward would, he turned the bow into the fire. This, Kerry said later, reduced the size of the target for the enemy on shore. He then sped toward the source of the fire on shore. Seeing a Vietcong soldier pop up and aim a rocket-propelled grenade at his boat, Kerry jumped out of the wheelhouse and jumped onto the shore. The enemey soldier tried to fire, but saw Kerry coming, so he turned and ran with his RPG. Kerry caught the soldier and killed the man before he could try to launch the grenade again.

SOURCE: Max Cleland

BTFW: Kerry earned three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star for the heroism described above. I don't know what the fuck Kerry did with his medals after Vietnam. They were his. He can do with them whatever he wants. He earned them.

[WilliamPitt]

5. Woop

There it is.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

7. Did Cleland and Kerry serve in the same unit?

Woop, there it isn't.



edit: sp

[WilliamPitt]

8. So Max Cleland is a liar now?

How far are you prepared to take this?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. I love Max Cleland.

When I see source= Max Cleland, I'm also looking for a verifiable third-person verification. If I said "Max Cleland says William Pitt sucks" would you take it at face value or would you ask for verification? That's all I'm asking.


On edit: I'm willing to go as far as you are. Medals schmedals. That thinking is soooo 1950's. Why don't we just kick back and watch videos of soldiers goosestepping, for Chrissakes? War is rarely an honorable thing. And when it is, you'll know it.

[GalleryGod]

23. Where you Rummy Boy?

Still in diapers?

Vets with Vets in '04

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

31. Right here, GG. Right here. Proud American Liberal.

I don't have a pithy phrase like "Vets with Vets in '04." I have a brain that informs me that killing is almost always unnecessary.


Oh wait, I do have a pithy phrase:

"Peaceful people for Peace in '04."

[Forkboy]

37. Rubbing your service in people's faces

is not very honorable...in fact it's downright childish.

[GalleryGod]

50. 2minutes. High sticking.

Ciao,Bellas!

[Forkboy]

82. High sticking? Never!

elbowing maybe....

[TLM]

55. He killed people in vietnam...

tell me how that's a good thing? Where is the honor in that?

All I see is more examples of a whole fucking life spent waffling and playing both sides of an issue.

He did not support the war, but he enlisted and now uses it for political capital.

He threw his medals on the White House lawn, but oh wait they we're not his medals.


Serving in war time is an honorable thing, true, but to act as you are and to treat those who are not vets as second class citizens whose opinions are less valid, more than cancels out that honor.

[dsc]

57. Have you lost your mind?

While I certainly don't think that we should vote people into office simply due to military service I think to compare Kerry's VietNam service to goosestepping troops is just plain deranged.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

63. I was trying to create a visual analogy.

Just as service is not goosestepping, non-service is not being a communist spy. They both have the same importance: none.

[bearfartinthewoods]

42. how far are you prepared to take this?

shall we take it to the movie?

Max wasn't there. he cannot know the truth. acting like what he says is truth just because he says it is grating.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

44. Depends on what the movie is.

[molly]

9. Where are Dean's medals?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

11. Where are Kerry's supporters?

[molly]

13. Lurking - ready to pounce

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

17. Tapping foot.....waiting.....

And frightened to death!

[molly]

18. Oh, BTW -

are you old enough to vote?

[a_random_joel]

20. Ouch.

Ummm,
Let's not get personal...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. I'm DoublePlusOldEnough to vote. How 'bout you?

[molly]

35. I trumph you baby!

[Forkboy]

38. trumph?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

39. You old hag!

LOL.

I support your support.

[molly]

47. Yep!

old hag - nothin to lose in fightin the good ole fight!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

49. Cheers!

:toast:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[molly]

28. Will - not that I owe you an explanation

but you have been around here for a very long time. I did not get into this pissing contest UNTIL they flooded DU with crap like Kerry's CHEESESTEAK for crissakes - every positive Kerry thread that is posted - some Deanie posts an assinine reply - a lot of times not even relevant. I REFUSE to back off. When they issue an apology for starting this, I will - not until then.

Every single minute of every single day - they were posting trivial Dean crap in LBN for crissakes - didn't you see it? It was everywhere - this is not a cultist society - is it?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

36. Grow up, Will.

What exactly is "the problem we're having?" Supporting the candidates that we like? God forbid. Finding the weak points of the candidates? God forbid.

If anyone thinks that what is said on DU, or any other message board, has any import on the 2004 Presidential election, I've got a bridge...

(/gag reflex to sermon)

[molly]

43. The biggest problem I have with you Deanies

started when you flooded DU and besides THAT, you were in ATTACK mode - you reminded a lot of us of the Star Trek things - robots with a common unthinking controllable mind.

I had seriously thought about Dean until that point - then - Jeeezezzz f'n crissakes - don't you know how you guys come across? I thought everyone here on DU was an independent intelligent thinking person - until we got beseiged by the Deaniebots. Don't you seriously know how you look. You look a whole lot like an Amway convention - or Mary Kay or whomever.

I could never consider a candidate that would endorse that kind of behavior in his campaign.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. We didn't flood DU......

we were already here.

[Forkboy]

48. I'm not a deanie or a kerryite

and do you seriously know how YOU look :eyes:

And if you let supporters of a candidate turn you off to the ACTUAL candidate then you're a mighty shallow thinker.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

64. Sorry but Dean supporters were already here...

I was at damn near 1000 posts when I heard about Dean.

And read your posts... all you do is insult Dean supporters. You call us, unthinking robots. As if the only possible way anybody could disagree with your support for Kerry is if they are stupid unthinking mindless drones. We couldn’t possibly have an reason not to lovingly adore Kerry as you do.

Why not just make the campaign slogan, “Vote For Kerry, Or You’re Stupid!”

And you folks wonder why Kerry is 21 points behind Dean.

[OrdinaryTa]

71. He's a PHONY

This guy is gold plated. I'm not usually wrong when my "phony-meter" goes right into the red zone. That happens whenever John Kerry gets his name in the paper.

That business with the medals. The emotional speech that was intended to sound impromptu, but was professionally written for him weeks in advance. I also think his military record is fudged. I mean, three purple hearts in four months. That shit doesn't happen.

I don't trust him. I certainly won't vote for him.

[TLM]

73. Kerry's purple hearts remind me of

that episode of M*A*S*H* where the asshole conservative doc gets a purple heart for getting a "shell fragment" in his eye... turns out it was egg shell.

[GalleryGod]

25. It's called a "Double Envelopment"..Watch & Wait-like Hart in '84

Semper,mate!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

41. I Goddamn better see Donna Rice then!

Fi, mate!

[GalleryGod]

45. G-man had good taste in sleazy blondes,though.

Better than those Cheap Ho's that Bubba fancied.

"Take all you want.Give Nuthin' back!"

See you guys-I got 40 friggin' Poli Sci's to prepare for.
Nice visitin' with you.

AHOY!:hi:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

51. No comparison in tastes.

Good luck on the test.

[Octafish]

27. Right here. And I've got your source for medals right here, too.

You are something else, FrostyRummy. BTW, who do you support for President? Whoever it is, I bet he didn't earn any medals in combat. Maybe on the ski slopes, but not in combat.

Here's what Slate has to say, with their sources.

The story: "Even though he disagreed with the war, Kerry enlisted in the Navy because he believes in the code of national service. Kerry, who volunteered to command what was known as a 'swift boat,' repeatedly showed courage under fire and gained the admiration of his crew. He was wounded three times and received three Purple Hearts. He also was awarded a Bronze Star for saving the life of a Special Forces lieutenant, and a Silver Star for boldly leading a counterattack into enemy fire." (Chicago Sun Times, May 9, 2003)

"Mr. Kerry won his Silver Star by ordering his patrol boat straight into a Vietcong ambush, all guns blazing. This looked foolhardy to some other commanders, but it threw the guerrillas into disarray—and Mr. Kerry carried the day." (Economist, July 19, 2003)

"Kerry went from having one of the safest assignments in the escalating conflict to one of the most dangerous. … swift boats were charged with patrolling the narrow waterways of the Mekong Delta to draw fire and smoke out the enemy. Cruising inlets and coves and canals, swift boats were especially vulnerable targets. … Because bullets could easily penetrate the hull, sailors hung flak jackets over the sides. The boat's loud engine invited ambushes. Speed was its saving grace—but that wasn't always an option in narrow, heavily mined canals. … Under Zumwalt's command, swift boats would aggressively engage the enemy. Zumwalt, who died in 2000, calculated in his autobiography that these men under his command had a 75 percent chance of being killed or wounded during a typical year." (Boston Globe, June 16, 2003)

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087214/

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. Sorry. Not good enough.

You said "Source=Max Cleland" without a link.

Do you think that I deny that Kerry served? Do you think that I give a shit? I will always fall on the side of reason, as opposed to photo-ops.

I support Dean. Do I support him because I think he is unfallible? No. Am I against Kerry because he served OUR country? No. Do I support Dean because he is willing to put a voice to the frustration of this generation? Yes. Am I against Kerry because he was brave enough to enlist, fight in a war, and condemn that war only to support an equally bullshit war? Yes.

Medals don't impress me. Mettle does.

[TLM]

74. Well put.... think I have a new sig.

"Medals don't impress me. Mettle does." -RUMMYisFROSTED

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

75. I kind of liked it, too.

Even a blind dog finds a bone once in a while..

[a_random_joel]

94. Impressive Indeed.

"Medals don't impress me. Mettle does." -RUMMYisFROSTED

That dog DOES hunt!

[Octafish]

79. The only medals Dean ever won were on the ski slopes.

After his "bad back" got him classified 1-Y during Vietnam, your horse spent the entire winter skiing at exclusive Vale, Colorado. For spending money, Dean rehabbed his back by pouring concrete.

His medical recovery continued to the present time. As governor, his "bad back" had sufficiently healed to allow him to walk the entire 250-mile north-south length of Vermont. A FREAKING MIRACLE!




‘Green’ governor finishes hiking ‘green tunnel’

The Herald of Randolph
June 7, 2001

RANDOLPH, Vt. — Five very tired, very wet, very determined seventh-grade girls from Randolph, Vt., helped Gov. Howard Dean achieve a personal goal Monday — his own end-to-end trek of Vermont’s 250-mile-Long Trail.

In return, the girls got a note excusing them from the next day’s phys ed class at RUHS. The note was signed by a doctor — Dr. Howard Dean.

Nine students and leaders from the White River Craft Center set off with Gov. Dean at 8:30 a.m. from Route 242 near Jay Peak, headed north toward Canada.

The group had stayed overnight on the trail the previous evening, bedding down at the Laura Woodward Shelter. They wanted to be on hand bright and early when the governor arrived, intent on finishing the northernmost 13.3 miles of trail. It was the only section that Gov. Dean hadn’t hiked so far.

CONTINUED...

http://www.aldha.org/howdean.htm

[Walt Starr]

80. Um, why blame Dean for how the Army classified him?

Seriously, he went for his physical to an Army doctor and was classified 1Y.

It's not like he showed up with a doctor's note for a boil on his butt or something. He showed up in good faith and was classified by the Army doctor.

[oasis]

84. Hey, give him a break. A guy could get frostbite or even poison ivy .

:evilgrin:

[CMT]

86. as a doctor

he also has helped lots of people and probably saved a few lives along the way too. Keep that in perspective.

[Octafish]

78. You don't even know who Max Cleland is, do you?

What a joke.

[Andy_Stephenson]

26. Hanging on the wall in his office in

frames.

[TLM]

66. You mean like the Wellstone award for union support?

Is that a metal? I think it is more of a plaque.


Or do you just mean metals given out by the government to soldiers for killing people? I'd say since Dean chose to serve his country as a doctor, saving lives rather than taking them, he probably doesn't have any metals for killing like Kerry does.

But considering we are currently in a war that Kerry helped to start, do we really want a killer in the White House who is proud of the shiny bits of medal he got to signify how great he was at killing?

Or would we rather have someone who took an oath to do no harm and to save lives?

[a_random_joel]

12. I am no longer a Kerry backer, but

I am inclined to take Max Cleland's word for it.

Unless he is telling tall tales about his arms and legs, too?

Woop de-freakin' do.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. I'm inclined to take Max Cleland's word for it, too.

I'm just not willing to take Octafish's word for it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

40. there what is? cetainly not an answer to the question

sweet jeeze..why the game playing.

the medals that Kerry tossed over the fence were not his.
his remain framed and likely hanging on a wall @ chez Heinz.

he either threw the ribbons from his medals or someone elses
medals at the white house. he seems to have said at one time that some disabled vet asked him to throw the medals.

[OrdinaryTa]

30. Kerry's Awards

Kerry earned three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star

I had trouble researching this because the search engines are full of the story of Kerry returning his medals in protest of the Vietnam War. Turns out that Kerry didn't really return his medals. The ones he left on the steps of the Capital belonged to somebody else, get it? Surely you didn't think those were his own medals. How silly of you.

That issue aside, Lt. Kerry seems to have had a knack for collecting cheap purple hearts. The original purpose of the award was to acknowledge soldiers who were grievously injured. Later, in a sort of devaluing of the purple heart, it was awarded to guys who'd suffered trivial injuries. If Kerry is going to make a big deal about his purple hearts, what did he get them for? What kind of injuries does a guy on a boat get anyhow?

The man just isn't what he appears to be. He feints in one direction, then moves in another. But he wants credit for the original head feint! Yes I voted for the war in Iraq, but I had terrible misgivings about it.

Tell your story walking, John. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

[Eloriel]

56. Whoa there, Ta

As I've said what feels like 100 times -- I don't like ANYone distorting the record of ANYbody. I'm hardly a Kerry fan, as you know, but this isn't an appropriate thing to say, IMO:

That issue aside, Lt. Kerry seems to have had a knack for collecting cheap purple hearts. The original purpose of the award was to acknowledge soldiers who were grievously injured. Later, in a sort of devaluing of the purple heart, it was awarded to guys who'd suffered trivial injuries. If Kerry is going to make a big deal about his purple hearts, what did he get them for? What kind of injuries does a guy on a boat get anyhow?


It's my understanding that Kerry got a silver star, a bronze star and 2 purple hearts. That's hardly anything to sneeze at, AND IMO you do a great disservice to any VietNam vet who earned a purple heart by your callous disregard. I don't know if what you say is true, perhaps it is. But just by God BEING there was enough, IMO, to get something out of it. Kerry didn't devalue the purple heart -- if that happened, it was the Pentagon that did it.

That said, it's true he threw someone else's medals over the White House fence. THAT you can criticize him on if you've a mind to.

Eloriel

[OrdinaryTa]

68. A Question of Truthfulness

Kerry managed to get three purple hearts without being seriously injured. He used the three purple hearts to cut his tour of duty down to less than half of what most guys served. This says to me that he was either extraordinarily lucky, or he was the kind of operator who knows the rules and how to manipulate them.

I did not suggest that the purple heart is itself a cheap award, but it certainly has been cheapened by guys who get them for trivial injuries. Two of Kerry's purple hearts were minor cuts and didn't disable him at all. The third one disabled him for two days. These are not serious wounds. They did, however, get him on a plane back to some cushy job in the United States.

What else do we know about Kerry? Well, he's not entirely on the level. Now you see him, now you don't. He opposes the war in Iraq, then he votes for it. Having voted for it, he goes back to opposing it again. The guy is too slippery to stand in one place very long. The way to know where he stands on things is to take a freeze-action photograph.

I do not forget the anguish we all felt when it looked like nobody had the guts to oppose George Bush. Aging Senator Robert Byrd said some things, and out-of-office Al Gore said some things. I vowed at that time that I would not forgive those Democrats who refused to stand up for humane values. There's no way that I'm going to forgive John Kerry for voting for the war.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

89. Never mind

I'm editing this out, because I didn't read the responses, and I didn't realize I was getting involved in yet another Dean vs. Kerry thread. May they destroy each other so Dennis Kucinich, or failing that, Dick Gephardt wins the primary, and becomes the next, elected President of the United States.

[OneTwentyoNine]

6. Hmm,did the reporter ask Chimpboy about medals??

Or hell,forget the medals,ask Chimpboy to PROVE he didn't desert the National Guard.

I'm not a Kerry bootlicker,but WTF,the guy served in Nam,so did Gore yet they ALWAYS try to find the little FUCKING "gotcha" on Dems and Military service. Meanwhile TOTALLY avoiding the glaring desertion of service that our Commander in Thief pulled off.


David

[JI7]

14. who gets medals ?

what do you have to do to get a medal in the military ?

[wuushew]

22. Get captured in Iraq

have your wounds treated and become a national hero for a corrupt administration.

[OrdinaryTa]

54. Something Heroic, Unless You're an Officer

Officers get a bronze star just for showing up, while enlisted men get one for doing something dangerous. An officer's silver star, which requires some bravery, is roughly equivalent to an enlisted man's bronze star.

A silver star - that is, a real silver star, not an officer's silver star - requires heroism that has a successful result. The Distinguished Service Cross, the next higher award, requires truly extraordinary heroism and success that turns the tide of battle. The Congressional Medal of Honor is the stuff of legend - something so courageous and effective that it becomes a source of inspiration.

Officers do not get cheap CMH's.

[GalleryGod]

19. I Was there. At "Operation Dewey Canyon II" JK said the medals he threw

were for a friend "who couldn't be with us". I was 15 yards away.
Vets with Vets in '04.........
It's a DANGEROUS WORLD AGAIN.
Real Men. REAL heroes. REAL courage.

[WilliamPitt]

24. You were there? Really?

Tell me about it.

[GalleryGod]

34. Washington & Nixon WH stood STILL that day....

They (Nixon & Co.) couldn't roll out the "Right Wing Pinkertons" of their day, AKA the Hard Hats, because the Vets would literally physically match them club for club,fist for fist. The tension was palpable.

Actually- John Mitchell & those at Junta/Justice feared the Vets would revert to "small unit tactics" and run rings around the DC police force. Quantico was on red alert. (Confirmed years later by my best friend,double silver star winner, who was at Q,between 'Nam tours.)

Kerry was great those days-he was our guy. Of sure-lots in the ranks thought he was a media hog-but most agreed, "Hey,DF! Could you do BETTER". Overwhelmingly-We thought JK was our Best Voice to send to the Senate Committee. Hell, JK scared the crap outta Trick-the-Dick and Heinrich Himmler Haldeman.

Seems like yesterday,Will;..of course,it isn't. Thus, my anger bubbles up...lots of those guys didn't make it to see JK's announcement.


:pals:

[lancemurdoch]

29. I see

OK, cool...this is what I was looking for.

[Narraback]

32. The Boston Globe did a big story on his service...

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[GalleryGod]

52. Doing his Best Gleason Impersonation: "G'nite EVERYbody!"

The DU audiences are the BEST in the World!

[bbmykel]

53. I think Lance may be referring to...

..a different story. The one where Kerry and other Vietnam vets disposed of their medals (I say disposed of because I can't recall the method) publicly. It was reported that Kerry disposed of his own medals but, in fact, had used medals from a friend and still possesses his medals.

I'm sure someone can provide a link to a more thorough telling of the facts. It's the kind of "nothing" story that can be used to inflame those that don't like Kerry, but, IMO, hasn't much substance to it.

I put it on the par with the 'Skull & Bones' stuff. It's factual but not particularly revealing.

Mike

[OrdinaryTa]

60. It Shows He's a Phony

He made a big display of throwing back medals on a day when other veterans were throwing back theirs. Whether he explained his actions to bystanders or not, Kerry allowed the media to assume that he was throwing back his own medals. As it turns out, he didn't.

That's a pattern with Kerry. He seems to be doing one thing, then he does the other. His vote on the war is an example. He and Hillary used head feints to fake out the Left, but in the final analysis, neither one can be trusted.

Sorry, John. Tell your story walking. We're looking for a leader, not a poll watcher.

[Nicholas_J]

58. No thats bull

Kerry wasnt carying his medals that day, but had the medals of others who gave them to him that day to throw them over the fence...

HE was not carying his medals, the event of throwing them over that dsay was unplanned, But he had his service commendation ribbons in his pocket at the time and after he threw the medals of those who gave them to him over the fence, he reached into his pocket and threw his ribbons over (you know those funny things soldiers were on their uniforms that look like rainbows). They are all designed to indicate all of the citations a soldier has received during his career.

[TLM]

59. He's a fraud... he lied about it, then was caught.

Thanks to Tinoire for the great info...


An Open Letter
to Senator John Kerry
on Iraq

by S. Brian Willson (You remember him right?)
October 10, 2002
FROM: S. Brian Willson ([e-mail])
TO: John Kerry ([e-mail])

<snip>

When you decided to run for the Senate in 1984 against Ray Shamie, a wealthy businessman, remember that I loyally supported your campaign as one of the dozen or so Vietnam veterans the press called Kerry's Commandos, you called "Doghunters." We accompanied you throughout the state, and fended off right wing criticism from folks such as General George Patton III, who accused you of "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" for your earlier VVAW activities. I'm sure you remember with fondness that critical time that launched you into national office. Your lawyer brother, Cameron, concluded that it was the veterans' support that pulled your first campaign out of a nose-dive and created the necessary "galvanizing energy."

<snip>


The first hint of a bit of disconnect in your style was when during your first Senate campaign you denied returning your war medals, with a thousand other veterans, in protest of the war during Dewey Canyon III. That was a bit of a shock, since for most veterans who returned their medals in that emotional ceremony on Friday, April 23, 1971, it was a very proud and healing moment. Your 1984 campaign response: You had returned the medals of a WWII acquaintance at his direction. All those 13 years everyone thought you had had the courage and leadership to return medals that to veterans who returned them represented medals of dishonor drenched in the blood of innocent Vietnamese who did not deserve to die for a lie, any more than our fellow US Americans. I guess you knew then that you were to be running for office.

The second hint occurred at the celebration party you organized for us "doghunters" at your friend John Martilla's Beacon Hill house in Boston in late June 1985, 6 months into your term as a junior Senator. In the wee hours of the morning, you made two comments that troubled me: (1) you stressed your initials as "JFK" that would help you one day in your quest for the White House, and (2) that after War Department briefings (and perhaps CIA as well) about the need for funding and training contra terrorists in Afghanistan and Nicaragua you had a new appreciation for their importance in furthering U.S. policies. That did not mean that you necessarily voted for Contra aid but that once in power, information becomes part of an elite circle preempting genuine democracy.

<snip>

With your vote for essentially agreeing with the selected resident of the White House's request for incredible authority in advance to wage wars against whomever he wants, you have contributed to finalizing the last of the world's empires, and the likely consequent doom of international law, peaceful existence, and hope for the future possibilities of Homo sapiens. Of course, it also means that searching for the motivations of other people's rage and desperate acts of revenge will be overlooked, dooming us to far more threats and instability then if we had seriously pursued a single-standard in the application of international law equally with all nations in the first place. We are too much of a bully to do that, and have stated over and over again that the American Way Of Life is not negotiable. Can you understand that this means species suicide?

I'm sorry and terribly fearful for this state we are in. Your vote is terribly misguided, John. Now that veterans have reorganized throughout the nation as once again an important part of the growing movement, know that we shall work hard for your defeat, whether as a Presidential candidate or for another Senate term.

Sincerely,

S. Brian Willson, Arcata, CA
Veterans For Peace

--------------------------------------------

Warsh wrote that such a "coup de grace" would have been considered a war crime. Belodeau stood beside Kerry and said he'd been misquoted. He conceded that he had fired at and wounded the Viet Cong, but denied Kerry had simply executed the wounded Viet Cong. Dan Carr, a former Marine from Massachusetts, who served 14 months as a rifleman sloshing around in the humid jungles of I Corps, South Vietnam, questioned whether or not Kerry deserved a Silver Star for chasing and killing a lone, wounded, retreating Viet Cong. "Kerry is certainly showing some sensitivity there. Most people I knew in Vietnam were just trying to pull their time there and get the hell out. There were some, though, who actually used Vietnam to get their tickets punched. You know, to build their resumes for future endeavors," Carr said.
http://www.usvetdsp.com/story10.htm

---------------------------

The Making of the Candidates:
John Forbes Kerry
By Charles M. Sennott, Globe Staff
SUNDAY, October 6, 1996

<snip>

But as it later turned out, the medals Kerry threw were not his own. Since that fact was revealed by the Wall Street Journal in 1984, it has dogged Kerry. It appears as a throwaway line in nearly every profile of the senator, usually used to paint him as a phony. In his recent interview with the Globe, Kerry added a new twist.

He said that the two sets of medals he threw had been handed to him by a wounded veteran in a New York VA hospital and by a World War II veteran from Lincoln, Mass., whom he'd met at a fundraiser. Kerry says he can't remember their names. While he did not throw his own medals (they remain tucked away in a desk at his home in Boston), Kerry said he did throw the ribbons on his uniform that symbolized the medals he had earned. Asked why he didn't bring his own medals to throw since it was planned weeks in advance, Kerry said it was because he ``didn't have time to go home (to New York) and get them.''

``It is frustrating,'' Kerry says of the criticism he's received. ``People said things, you know, about the medals. And ``I mean, I led that march, I stood up at the goddamn thing, and I took my ribbons off my chest and I threw them over the fence. I was the last person there, the leader of the event. I waited till everyone had done their duty, then fufilled mine.''


http://www.boston.com/globe/specialreports/1996/oct/senate/jk106.htm

* * * * * * * * * * * *
Excerpts from
STOLEN VALOR
How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of its Heroes and its History

by B.G. Burkett/Glenna Whitley

<"But years later, after his election to the Senate, Kerry's medals turned up on the wall of his Capitol Hill office. When a reporter noticed them, Kerry admitted that the medals he had thrown that day were not his.
And Kerry's emotional, from-the-heart speech had been carefully crafted by a speechwriter for Robert Kennedy named Adam Walinsky, who also tutored him on how to present it.

TV reporters totally ignored another Vietnam veteran, Melville L. Stephens, a former aide to Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, chief of Naval Operations, who that same day urged the Senate not to abandon America's allies in South Vietnam. "]

<snip>

page 135

After a man who said his son died in Vietnam blew taps, the soldiers began flinging their war medals over a high wire fence in front of the Capitol: Purple Hearts, Bronze Star Medals, Silver Stars - bits of ribbon and metal hurled in the face of the government that had so betrayed them. Some, after throwing away what had cost them so dearly, broke down and cried.

One of those was John Kerry, Vietnam Navy veteran and aspiring politician who had been among those who organized the protest. Kerry flung a handful of medals - he had received the Silver Star, a Bronze Star Medal, and three Purple Hearts - over the fence. Kerry spoke later that week before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, putting a face on the antiwar movement far different from the one seen before - the scruffy hippie or wild-eyed activist. Kerry represented the All-American boy, mentally twisted by being asked to do terrible things, then abandoned by his government.


From start to finish, the public took Dewey Canyon III at face value, not understanding that they were watching brilliant political theater. Kerry, a Kennedy protege with white-hot political aspirations, ascended center stage as both a war hero and as an antiwar hero throwing away his combat decorations. His speech, apparently off the cuff, was eloquent, impassioned.


But years later, after his election to the Senate, Kerry's medals turned up on the wall of his Capitol Hill office. When a reporter noticed them, Kerry admitted that the medals he had thrown that day were not his. And Kerry's emotional, from-the-heart speech had been carefully crafted by a speechwriter for Robert Kennedy named Adam Walinsky, who also tutored him on how to present it. TV reporters totally ignored another Vietnam veteran, Melville L. Stephens, a former aide to Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, chief of Naval Operations, who that same day urged the Senate not to abandon America's allies in South Vietnam.

http://www.vietpage.com/archive_news/politics/2002/Dec/2/0085.html
http://www.geocities.com/seavet72/AW/ws-kerry.htm

John Kerry: The Chameleon Senator
By Ted Sampley
U.S. Veteran Dispatch
October-December 1996 Issue

http://www.usvetdsp.com/story10.htm

[ShaneGR]

62. Stupidest thread EVER

WOW, lets tear down a good Dem! Yay! A lot of fun!

WTF cares what Kerry did with his medals? He earned those medals serving in Vietnam. Something Bush never did. He paid for those medals with blood and sorrow. Something most of us have never done.

Once again, WTF cares whether he didn't use his actual medals? It was just one of MANY things that helped to end the Vietnam war. Just a small part, but still a part! John Kerry was a hero to the anti-war moverment then. Why the Fu*k do you think he was elected in the first place?




And I'm not even a Kerry supporter. Just sick of Dem bashes and disruptors.

[Cocoa]

65. it could be worse

it could have been something like "I've heard something about Kerry belonging to Skull and Bones, is there any truth to this? I've done some research, but there's NOTHING on the internet about it. Thanks in advance."

[Cheswick2.0]

67. I care that he didn't use his own medals

so will the whole country when this is sold over the airwaves everyday.

[TLM]

72. Exactly, that's my fear...

I think a Kerry campaign would be Gore part II.

Not only is Kerry cursed with that same wooden unexciting demeanor, which will hurt him, he also has the same weakness Gore had on being wishy washy.

I don't mind throwing the metals... but throw your own. Or be honest about it from right then. Kerry let people think those were his metals for years.

And his excuses... oh he did not have time to travel home to get his metals. What... was special delivery post not working?

No Kerry knew that some time later he might want to play up the war hero angle instead of the anti-war protester angle, so he tossed somebody else's metals and acted like they were his.

So he got the political boost from the event, without the real cost of tossing his metals.

But I fear Kerry will be hung by his fence sitting. There are few things that undecided voters hate more than a wishy washy candidate who tries to play both sides of an issue.

[OrdinaryTa]

77. Kerry's Four-Month Tour

Lt. Kerry knew the rules all right. Three purple hearts and I'm outta here! Those were cheap purple hearts, but Kerry would have the doc examine his scratches after an encounter with the enemy. That's all it takes, and Kerry knew that.

People who have never been in the service don't know how infuriating it is to see guys strutting around with bullshit medals. It's true that in Kerry's case the purple hearts weren't totally phony - they were actually awarded. But he ought to be embarrassed in front of guys who really earned the purple heart. Then again, it's difficult to embarrass a guy like Kerry.

[Octafish]

81. Get your smears straight. It was Kerry's SECOND TOUR in Vietnam.

Kerry spent the first aboard a blue-water Navy vessel.

Like most consciencious Americans, he wanted to do the same things as everyone else. So he volunteered for a second tour. That's how he became the CO of the fast boat.

You don't know much about service, do you?

[OrdinaryTa]

88. Kerry's No Hero

You don't know much about service, do you?

As a matter of fact that's not true, but it's irrelevant. I'm not running for president, John Kerry is. Reports are that his first tour was typical Navy officer stuff, no danger at all. He might just as well have been stationed in the Gulf of Mexico.

The guy's not a hero. You can't make me believe he is one. He got three purple hearts in four months, and two of his "injuries" were so trivial he went right back to duty. The third injury (the bad one) resulted in two days disability but it got him out of Vietnam.

[Octafish]

91. Kerry learned how to be a HERO from JFK

Gee. Some people need to have stuff pointed out to them.



Others take to it naturally. Here John Kerry, left,
sails with President John F. Kennedy
aboard the 62-foot Coast Guard yawl Manitou
in Narragansett Bay on Aug. 26, 1962.

BTW: Who do you back, Ta? Is your horse a HERO? The NRA doctor? Makes me laugh.

[OrdinaryTa]

92. Sailing With The President

I'm not sure what this picture is supposed to establish. I knew Kerry came from Massachusetts money, but I wasn't aware he was connected to the Kennedys. There's nothing redemptive about that; in fact it makes me even more suspicious about Kerry's war record. All kinds of considerations go into decisions about what is meritorious and what is not. It wouldn't be surprising that Lt. Kerry, obviously a friend of the Kennedys, enjoyed a visibility in the Navy that other junior grade officers did not.

None of this has any bearing on my decision not to vote for Kerry. However, when he's touted as a war hero it awakens a sense of skepticism in me. I frankly think Kerry's a life-long sneak and I interpret his war record in that light. Three cheap-o purple hearts is really stretching it, in my opinion.

To answer your question about who I'm supporting: I like Dean's message but I'm not sure I like Dean. There are a number of open questions, but I haven't ruled him out. Some months ago, I wrote to Ted Kennedy asking him to run, but he did not respond and it does not look like he will be running. Obviously, I have no pull with the Kennedys. I will not be voting for Gephardt, Lieberman or Hillary Clinton because of their vote on the war resolution.

In the Democratic primary I plan to vote for Al Sharpton. No Justice, No Peace! I liked him better before he made himself more presentable to white voters. I knew him when! I was one of the early adopters.

Edit: Omitted important word

[Octafish]

93. BFEE goes back to November 22, 1963

And THAT's why I'm for Kerry. He stands the best chance of beating Bush and then busting the Octopus that's strangled American Democracy for almost 40 years.

[TLM]

69. It matters because it speaks to Kerry's life of fense sitting...

It seems everything this guy does is a political calculation so he can play both sides of a given issue.

On one hand it is good to see a guy with that kind of savvy, but on the other I do not want more of this same crap in the White House.

He let people think he threw those metals over the fence, and only admitted they were not his when challenge about it later by a reporter who saw the metals in his office.

He always has an out...

He was against the war, but signed up anyway because he wanted to serve his country.

He threw his metals back, but turns out they were not really his.

Now he uses his service and metals for political capital.

When it is politically advantageous he is a war hero who was awarded all these metals for killing the VC.

But when it the gung ho war hero Kerry is not a politically viable image, then suddenly we get the anti-war, metals tossed over the white house lawn, war protestor Kerry.

Just like Kerry was all for the war in Iraq, voting to give Bush the green light, and proudly standing behind his support of Bush when he was sure that would matter in the elections.

Yet now that he sees the massive level of support from the democratic base that didn't want this war is getting behind Dean and Kucinich, so suddenly we see the other face of Kerry. Now he's against the war and he was tricked by that devious diabolical genius Mr. Bush into supporting a war where there would be killing of civilians and dead American soldiers everyday... just like another ill-fated war that Kerry should know all about.

Dean knew this was a quagmire and said we needed UN backing for any troop action, and Kerry's camp viciously attacked Dean for that position. Sharpton and Kucinich both knew Iraq was a big pit of quicksand waiting for us to get stuck... so how is it Kerry was the only one who didn't know?

[Walt Starr]

76. Other than your spelling of "medals"

You've pretty much got this nailed.

[dfong63]

85. great analysis

it seems that wanting to "have his cake and eat it too" is habit with Kerry.

[Southsideirish]

83. Hey Dems - lets not make their "oppo" easy for them.

While I'm not a Kerry person I do know that it is possible he may get the nomination -lets not destroy our own. You know they said Gore inadventently gave Bush ammunition on Dukakis that he (GHWB) later used although Gore's charges didn't directly refer to Willy Horton (that little nugget was dug up by the very nasty Lee Atwater.)

[w4rma]

87. No kidding. There is some ridiculous stuff on this thread. (n/t)

[OrdinaryTa]

90. He'll Be Eaten Alive

Republicans don't need to read DU to find weak points in Kerry's account of himself. Kerry made a big deal about throwing his ribbons back, but as it turns out, he was crossing his fingers behind his back while he did it. Tell me that's gonna fly.

The issue here is that Kerry has problems with Democrats. He's not the only Democrat who let us down hugely, but he's the most prominent. I am not going to vote for him. Don't push me out to the extremes, I don't belong there. I'm a Democrat, and it will disappoint me greatly that my deeply held views about the war don't matter to the party.

That vote was not a high hurdle. Kerry should have voted against giving Bush a free hand to wage war in Iraq, but he didn't. It's obvious why he didn't - he was afraid of pissing off the right. Well, I'm not that forgiving either.