interesting point from the "extras" on the BFC DVD

[shugah]

an excerpt from a speech Moore gave--he talked about how there were swat teams outside columbine high school for 3 hours or so--and they did not go in--even after the shooting had long since stopped. he said that everyone in the crowd there stayed behind the yellow caution tape, with a few exceptions. those few who tried to go in were apparently tackled and restrained and told not to go in.

i assume that parents of nearly all the kids in school must have been in the terrified crowd that day. well, we can all speculate about what we would have done in that place, but the fact is, most people stayed behind the yellow caution tape while children were shot and died.

the point he made in the speech that brought home a very unpalatable truth was: if people did not cease to cower before authority and fear at that very time, then when would they?

are we so afraid? sad, sad, sad...

[donco6]

1. That's brought up here in Denver all the time.

Still hasn't been an adequate answer to the question about why it took so long for SWAT to storm the building. Some don't realize that along with the guns there were propane bombs placed strategically throughout the building. They didn't go off, but I think somehow people knew they were there and were afraid they WOULD. At least, that's what's used sometimes as the reason for not going in more quickly.

[Lefty48197]

2. They were probably afraid of an ambush

they didn't want to get shot either. Human action must be very unpredictable under those circumstances. I think Mike also made the point that 500 students didn't just storm the two nuts. I just bought the DVD and watched it a couple of more times. I think it's a GREAT movie. The whole project appears to be an indictment of our culture of fear and violence, and that it's unique to the USA.

[shugah]

3. that's the thing

everyone was afraid they might get shot.

consider this: have you ever met a parent who wouldn't risk death to save their child? or at least believes that they would? so why did all those mommies and daddies remain quietly behind a flimsy piece of yellow plastic? and who were they afraid of being shot by? did they think the police and SWAT team would shoot them, or were they afraid of the guns inside the school? what held them in place? their children were being shot a short distance from where they stood--how could they be stopped?

this is not intended to be critical of any of the poor people in littleton, but the question remains, if these people--the parents of all those children in the school--stayed behind the yellow caution tape because they were told to by figures of authority, then is there an event that would cause people to say "NO!"

on edit: speling

[htuttle]

4. Maybe if it happened a second or third time

There's an element of shock when you're thrust into an unknown, dangerous situation, as all those parents were. During this period of shock, people are more susceptible to those acting in authority. Perhaps part of this leads back to early survival behaviors when we were chased by tigers, or whatever.

However, the more it happens, the less shock people feel when thrust into the same chaotic situation.

In a sense, this is analogous to what 9/11 did to a lot of people in this country. They went into a sort of shock, and were lead to agree (or at least tolerate by ignoring) to things they wouldn't have a few months previous.

The question is: will our spirits be broken before the shock wears off? At this point, I'm hopeful that they won't be.

[donco6]

5. They didn't necessarily know their kids were in there.

Kids from the school had scattered all over creation as the event unfolded. The school is located in a residential area, next to a park. The kids just ran every which way - some home, some to a church down the street, others to friends' houses. No one could tell anyone who was left in the building. So that may have been one reason.

Not being an apologist at all - just trying to describe the event as I recall it.

[shugah]

6. i appreciate that

donco. you're right, i wasn't there, and am working with what i recall from the time, and some of the things that have been bothering me since i re-watched the film on DVD, with the extra bonus sections.

i didn't know that kids had scattered--what a horrible dilemma for the parents. go look for their child, or watch the horrifying scene unfold?

anything else you care to share about what you recall would be appreciated as well. i think most of us are not really "over" what happened at columbine. it's just been pushed to a back burner to simmer in our collective subconscious.

[donco6]

10. It truly was pandemonium.

The school is a huge high school - more than 2000 students. So multiply all the parents, grandparents, siblings, etc., and ALL of them trying to get to the school, call the school, call the police, call the school district. . . all the phones were completely jammed, no one could get through to anyone, anywhere. Cell phones clogged all the bandwidth, so no cell phones worked and even the police bands were getting bogged so THEY were having trouble communicating in spots.

District folks resorted to driving from district offices (many miles away - Jeffco is the state's largest district), pull over as close to the school as they could get and WALK into the area. Once there the police wouldn't let them near, either, since they didn't all have district ID badges, so they couldn't help ameliorate any of the situation.

So, why didn't the parents just storm the school? Even with all this, I'm not sure. Perhaps, going back to my earlier post, it was just easier to convince yourself that your kid had gotten out in time. I wonder if in this type of unbelievable tragedy, you don't just cling to any other option besides the most horrific.

[hang a left]

13. Just before I got down

to your post, I was thinking if my kid was in there, I would have wanted to go in after him, probable being someone that was thrown to the ground and then arrested. They should have given the guns to the parents, the furthest thing from their minds would have been getting shot.

[Tansy_Gold]

7. the creepiest thing about Bowling for Columbine, imho, was. . .

. .. the clip of the newscaster reporting that the shooters had talked about flying planes into skyscrapers in New York.

or did i just imagine that?

[shugah]

8. no, you didn't imagine it

that was in there.

it was the actual footage from the school during the shooting that most disturbs me. i have not been able to purge it from my mind since i saw the movie originally, and seeing it again on the DVD still causes a huge emotional reaction.

[Tansy_Gold]

9. I couldn't watch some scenes. . . .

. . . I just don't have the stomach for it. That sort of thing literally keeps me awake at night. So I have to agree with you that those were far more disturbing.

But that clip about flying planes in skyscrapers -- it was so eerie. And the fact that Moore included it without any comment, just put it there and then went on to the next thing, was IMHO a stroke of pure genius. Condi Rice and her minions never thought of it, but two desperately disturbed young men in Colorado did. . . . .and here's the proof.

I wonder if he will include that clip, or any follow up on it, in the new documentary?

It's such a stinging indictment of the Bushnazis' utter failure -- either at national security or at effective cover-up lying, take your pick.

[Plaid Adder]

11. Yes, that is unquestionably the worst part...

I mean "worst" as in "hardest to take." I talked about that in my review of the movie after I saw it:

http://www.plaidder.com/bowling.htm

I don't know about people in Littleton, but I am nowhere near there with no kids in school and I am still way not over it. Ever since these things happened I have been trying to figure out what makes these things happen. I haven't, of course, but I keep trying:

http://www.plaidder.com/jonesb.htm
http://www.plaidder.com/columb.htm
http://www.plaidder.com/col2.htm

and then there's the novel I'm writing, but that's a long friggin' story. BFC resonated with me because Moore clearly shares my belief that these shootings are the result of a national pathology, not individual psychopaths snapping.

:scared:

The Plaid Adder

[shugah]

12. excellent articles, Plaid Adder

you have a wonderful way with words!

i think if everyone in america was really concerned with finding out why this happened--not classifying it as some bizarre, isolated, occurrence, and looking for a way to attach blame somewhere--but as you say, as a national pathology, it would go a long way toward helping all of us heal. i'm glad Mr. Moore made this movie. i'm glad it is so successful.

[Cheswick2.0]

14. The SWAT team should have gone in

What I can never forget is the teacher who bled to death. The kids with him were on the phone with the outside for hoursbegging someone to come. The SWAT Team did NOTHING!

WTF is a SWAT Team for if not to go where it is dangerous to protect citizens? What were they waiting for? Isn't this why they have all the protective gear?