Slate: John Kerry’s missing courage

[arcos]

John Kerry’s missing courage

From a brave warrior to an overly cautious politician


Sept. 2 — It’s obvious what John Kerry is selling this morning. He announces his candidacy for president in front of an aircraft carrier, surrounded by a dozen big American flags. He’s preceded to the podium by a succession of fellow veterans. Former Sen. Max Cleland, a triple amputee, introduces Kerry as “a profile in American courage.” A military band plays “Anchors Aweigh” as Kerry rises. He recalls his service in Vietnam. He uses the word “courage” 10 times.

THE NOTION THAT Kerry is just now kicking off his campaign is a well-understood joke. He’s been running for more than a year. I’ve heard and read about his war record many times. Yet I still stare incredulously every time he talks about it. I can’t get a rude but persistent question out of my mind: Can you believe this guy fought in Vietnam?

He did, of course. He’s the only candidate in this race who did. He earned the Silver Star and Bronze Star and was wounded three times. I didn’t serve in that war (I was, among other things, too young), nor did most of my colleagues in the press. I respect what Kerry did and endured. Still, I look at him and wonder how such a brave warrior became such a cautious politician.

<snip>

Take the test yourself. Call up a friend who hasn’t been following the campaign and knows nothing about the candidates. Have your friend watch five minutes of Dean speaking and five minutes of Kerry speaking. Then ask your friend which guy fought in Vietnam. Unless Kerry mentions his war record, I’ll bet your friend picks Dean.

<snip>

http://www.msnbc.com/news/960387.asp?0cv=CB20


Note: No flames or Kerry/Dean bashing please! A meaningful discussion would be better... I thought the article is interesting and the idea is not to a start a "Kerry is a Bushlite" or "Dean is is a draft dodger" flamefest.

on edit: the link doesn't work for some people. Here it is another one: http://slate.msn.com/id/2087839
Thanks to party_line for it.

[molly]

1. What is the intention of this thread?

No flames - this is a NO FLAMES thread?

[XanaDUer]

5. I'm not sure either,

since "flames" and "bashing" are so subjective around here.

[arcos]

8. The intention is to discuss the article...

I do not agree with a lot of what the author says. I think he raises some interesting points too.

He makes some stupid criticism of Kerry. For example:
"While Cleland works his magic, Kerry sits expressionless behind him, squinting and repeatedly touching various parts of his hair to make sure they’re in place. They’re fine, but Kerry seems terribly anxious that somewhere, somehow, a hair is out of place."

I think this is stupid.

"Today he tries to turn the tables on Dean. “Courage means standing up for gun safety, not retreating from the issue out of political fear or trying to have it both ways,” says Kerry.
I’m not sure how Dean will respond to this new line of attack. But somehow, I don’t think he’s afraid."

I agree with this.

See? We can discuss with no flames.

[Cha]

20. Yeah, I don't think Dean will be "afraid", either!

Dean has a reasonable stance on guns for the whole Country!

[TLM]

97. Yeah I hope Kerry wants to go after Dean on Gun control...

He will lose so hard if he tries to be the big gun pro-control guy.


Not only is that a losing position in the general, but it is not a popular position with most rural dems.

If KErry is the pro-gun control dem... Dean will clean up in states like Ohio, MO, AZ, TN, etc.

[KaraokeKarlton]

57. The author seems to be picking up the same vibe I am from Kerry

I wasn't able to put my finger on exactly what it was until earlier today. To me, it looks like Kerry is running for the image/status a presidential win would give him. And Dean is running because he really wants to do the job/work a presidential win would give him. If you pay close attention, you can see the clues to this in the way they both go about things. Kerry watches the polls and Dean doesn't. Kerry tries too hard to "look cool" and Dean just gets out there and inspires people and has fun doing it. With Kerry, everything seems so forced and with Dean it just comes naturally. I think if Kerry were less concerned about how he looks everytime he takes a step he'd be doing much better than he is.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

89. Don't forget: this is the 'appearances vibe' that Gore lost on.

Hate to say it but...lots of Americans are ignorant on issues and vote on TV vibe. That's what posters like the one who started this are trying to say. Christ, look at the approval ratings Chimpy McWarHardon has!! (I love that epithet.) Gore didn't appear 'comfortable and direct' and so Mr. and Mrs. TV Land let the jibes from Leno and Letterman make Al Gore dismissable as A Man Of Conviction. Now we have the Fourth Reich and a huge body count. That is a serious consideration when deciding who will be put forth to slay the BushNazi dragon.

[KaraokeKarlton]

90. It's overkill that Kerry is trying so hard to "look cool"

It's a real turnoff, at least for me. It is so obviously staged and makes him look phony. Everyone likes someone who just naturally has that "aura", but they can also spot a "poser" a mile away and those people usually become the butt of the joke. The song "Pretty Fly For A White Guy" by Offspring immediately comes to mind when I see Kerry do and say these things. I just think it's lame. He doesn't have that "aura" and I think trying to fake having it detracts from his assets as a candidate.

[David Zephyr]

2. I Am Staying Out of This Thread Since I Don't Wear Asbestos.

Arcos, I hope you have your fire extinguisher nearby.

[arcos]

28. thanks! it is here, ready to be used just in case.

:hi::hi::hi:

[XanaDUer]

3. Well, my friends choose candidates

based like things like their records, their long history fighting for progressive values, etc.

Just hearing someone talk at a rally with supporters, or whatevers, won't do it for them. Or me.

Actually, I have taken this "test" and watched them both speak (per your post's suggestion), and Dean does not come across well. That's not a bash, that's my observation.

[arcos]

13. That's exactly what I mean...

That is your opinion, expressed in a civil way. This is precisely what I was talking about when I asked for no bashing.

I disagree with you, but respect your opinion a lot.

[XanaDUer]

14. You're welcome.

I never call people names, glad to see you feel the same way about respecting others' opinions. :)

[Walt Starr]

4. If Kerry were to be on the attack and take risks like Dean does

I'd be behind him 100%.

That's my take on it. Kerry could convince me, he simply needs to go on the attack. Unfortunately it seems he's being so careful that he sounds an awful lot like the guy he wants to replace.

Kerry is closer overall to my political leanings than Dean, but Dean fires me up.

That's my take, anyway. I hate the war vote and the way Kerry is campaigning just completely turns me off.

[molly]

6. How long have you been in the political arena?

it's a helluva lot different from what you learn by attending a Dean brainwash.

[Walt Starr]

10. More than two decades

Kerry puts me to sleep, Dean fires me up. That's just the way it is.

The war vote is the clincher with Kerry. He's turned me off so much I won't vote for him even if nominated.

[salin]

102. You just lost me

you said that IF Kerry were to go on the attack (on Bush), because overall his policy stands are closer to yours, he could win your support - but that at the time that Dean fires you up while Kerry doesn't.

Then you say that the Kerry war resolution vote lost you for good.

If the latter is true - all the "attacking" of Bush and his policies - wouldn't win your vote, in which case the first statement confuses me.

[Walt Starr]

109. War vote turns me off completely

But he's winning me back. I watched his speech and there was enough of an attack that I would probably still vote for the guy in the general now.

My opinions change as stances and conditions change. Right now, only Lieberman would definitely no get my vote in a general election.

Check back with me in a week or two, Kerry may piss me off to where I wouldn't vote for him in the general election again or he could be so on the attack that he would get my support in the primary.

These are fluid times in the primary season....

[salin]

117. Thanks for the clarification

I sorta read mixed messages. I am close to you on this. I can look beyond that vote - but only if the message and campaign shifts (as Lieberman's had not). I would also have problems if any candidate selected my senator as a VP candidate (which I think he is angling for) - as his rhetoric is still ala Lieberman. Of course he was there with Lieberman and Gephardt at the Rose Garden speech - and the three singlehandedly tanked all bipartisan efforts for amendments to the war resolution legislation (the talks collapsed within hours of the RGarden speech) - that would be very, very, very hard to over look when voting.

[Cha]

11. Sour grapes!

[Eloriel]

16. And the prize goes to MOLLY

for being the first basher of an opponent and his supporters in the thread. Congratulations, Molly.

Eloriel

[molly]

19. THANKYOU!!!!

anything and all I can to defend HERR Dean.

[Forkboy]

21. You're just making a fool of yourself

not to mention looking like a grade schooler :eyes:

[Cha]

23. "Herr Dean" ...listen to you...and you whine when anyone dares

to speak the truth on kerry!

[TLM]

99. You have to be a plant...

Admit it, you're just here to make Kerry supporters look bad.

[newsguyatl]

31. ROFLMAO!!!

oh god, eloriel... you're too much ... LOL

[TLM]

98. ANd who starts up with the flames?

The Kerry camp person calling Dean supporters brainwashed.


"Vote Kerry, Or You're Stupid!"

[Cha]

7. Thanks for the snips but the article link doesn't work for me!

:shrug:

[Rose Siding]

33. Link

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087839/

This isn't anything I'd like to see written about any Dem- very harsh.

[Eloriel]

9. Spot on, IMO

I've got an even better idea, tho:

Call up a friend who hasn’t been following the campaign and knows nothing about the candidates. Have your friend watch five minutes of Dean speaking and five minutes of Kerry speaking.

Then ask your friend which candidate s/he'd rather vote for.

Eloriel

[uberotto]

22. Been there, done that...

My wife has no interest in politics. She was talking to a friend of hers the other day and the topic of the democratic presidential candidates came up. She mentioned that she was probably going to vote for Lieberman because that is the only name that she recogized, and her friend said the same thing.

After hearing this, since I don't want to tell my wife how to vote, I've had her watch a few minutes of a Dean campaign speech on TV, a Kuchinich campaign speech on TV and a Kerry campaign speech on TV (these are the three that I currently find acceptable, but I didn't tell her that). She really liked Dean, what he said and how he said it. She liked what Kuchinich said, but thought he just didnt look like someone who could be president and she said she liked Kerry ok, but she liked Dean better.

[Cha]

25. Well...all I can say is Thank Goodness you did that! That would

be very sad if someone voted for lieberman because that was the only "name" they recognized!

Bravo! Let there be more of this!

[newsguyatl]

34. i tried watching kerry today

for the full speech, i really, really did... but i just couldn't... he's very dignified, very articulate, but he just lacks that umfph... it's just not there... i was bored pretty soon... on the other hand, i very much enjoyed listening to cleland...

also, i hate to see that the kerry campaign is pushing so hard for the whole "war, tough guy" image... to me, this is just letting the bush cabal set the rules and tone... be different, do something new... offer hope, offer a vision... make me excited... like dean.

kerry fails at that...i'm sorry

[arcos]

36. exactly!

"me, this is just letting the bush cabal set the rules and tone... be different, do something new... "
That's what I think about Kerry... and I think that although it has it has a good share of unfair criticism, part of the point of the article is that Kerry is too cautious, not willing to take risks as a politician.

[Demobrat]

12. As a baby boomer who helped a boyfriend dodge the draft

I DON'T CARE what anybody did back then!!! Not what Kerry did, not what Clinton did, not what Dean did, not even what W did, not what anybody did. That was then!! This is now!! Don't we have enough problems without going back to Vietnam?

[Old and In the Way]

72. Well, I'm a boomer and I remember....

I wonder how long we would have stayed in VietNam if people like Kerry didn't join with the anti-war crowd and lend the movement credibility?

But, you are right, let's focus on the future....

[TLM]

100. If he doesn;t go back to nam...

what is Kerry going to run on? Certianly not the last 3 or 4 years... unless he's running for the republican ticket.

[calimary]

110. We've already gone "back to vietnam"

It's just been renamed Iraq.

[searchingforlight]

15. Thanks for this information. If Kerry is nominated I will vote for him.

[arcos]

27. hopefully everyone will do that...

anyone but Bush, I think.

[uptohere]

17. I see where you're coming from

Kerry is a cautious pol because if you intend to be a senator you almost have to be. Dean has the swagger down and his supporters love that about him.

Add in the wealth factor and Kerry's demeanor if pretty understandable.

[TLM]

101. I think thats why govs become president...

Senators have to be so timid and careful... a gov does not.

[DemLikr]

18. These media whores are without shame, absolutely without shame.

As I've said before, any one of the Dem candidates makes Shrub look like the trite little nothing he is.

Where is Slate's article on W*'s Missing Military Service? Yeah, that's an article that we'll see real soon.

[billbuckhead]

24. If Dean is so courageous than why doesn't he stand up to the NRA?

Because Dean's really a wimp with no political courage whatsoever. He had nowhere to go after being mayor of Vermont for a decade. He had nothing to lose by standing up against the war. He couldn't stop the civil unions bill without suffering consequences so he reluctantly signed on and now he acts like he invented it.

[Cha]

29. Dean does what he thinks is fair and he was the Govenor of

Vermont for 12 years and got along with the Gun owners and the ones who don't want any guns!

And you don't know what you are talking about! You are spinning a courageous man record to suit your own venom.

[billbuckhead]

39. A Democrat doesn't get an "A" from Wayne LaPierre for being courageous

I'm sure all those Jim Jeffords Republicans in Vermont are just viscous. The Dean candidacy is a joke, a bad joke. Every mayor in every major city has to make far tougher decisions than the "governor" of Vermont. Why don't we give the Governor of Washington D.C. a chance. Hell that's far harder job involving about the same amont of citizens as Vermont. Dean doesn't even belong on the same stage as Kerry when courage is talked about. Kerry is a war hero in a bad war and peace hero when being a peace protestor wasn't cool. Dean is a pathetic opportunist sucking up to states rights to appease gun wackos and confederate flaggers.

[newsguyatl]

40. kerry votes

for the illegal war.... stages his speech on an aircraft carrier... displays max cleland on stage with him around flags and battleships... and DEAN is the opportunist??

alright then...

[billbuckhead]

46. What could Dean have possibly lost from being against the war? His 2% ?

Nothing because he was already left with no other office to run for. Dean had no bridge with the military industrial complex to burn. The Democrats who still were in office were the one's who had to make the hard decision. I wonder where all you Deanboppers were when Cythia McKinney was getting crucified on this very board?

[TLM]

107. So you admit that Kerry is roped into the MIC

"Dean had no bridge with the military industrial complex to burn. "

That sir, is exactly why he's a better man for the office of president than Kerry.

I want a president who doesn't have that military industrial complex baggage that you admit Kerry has.

[dsc]

43. He had to wear a fucking bulletproof vest

while campaigning in 2000 because he stood up for people like me. Where the fuck is Kerry's bill for civil unions, and note I said bill not law, Senators can sponser those you know.

[TLM]

108. Sorry, that would require Kerry to come down off the fence....

and that ain't going to happen.

[Andromeda]

88. i don't think there is a "governor" of DC...

just a mayor......

[TLM]

105. He's a war hero... no wait he's a anti-war hero...

guess it depends on which way the wind is blowing.

And what is heroic about killing a wounded and retreating VC soldier?

What is courageous about pretending to throw your metals over the white house fence when it is politically convenient, while keeping your metals so you can hang them on your congressional office wall later to play up the war hero image when it is politically convenient.

Talk about an opportunist... did you see him take a page out of Bush book and do his speak in front of an aircraft carrier?

I'm surprised he wasn’t wearing a flight suit... and you wonder why people think of Kerry as Bush light?

[arcos]

30. GOVERNOR of Vermont, not Mayor.

Ever heard of the campaign "Take Back Vermont"? Well, Dean and Democratic lawmakers were targeted by the rightwing in 2000 because of their support for the civil unions bill.

[Octafish]

42. That's right. Mayors are in charge of more people.

... and a bigger government, or "Budget," as the ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker would say.

Don't believe me? Detroit has a heck of a lot more people than Vermont. And much, much bigger problems. They go from health care to lousy schools to no jobs to drug abuse to teen-age pregnancy to violent crime to institutional racism. You really don't get much of that as Governor of Vermont.

[Forkboy]

61. hard to take you seriously Octafish

after you fell for Acerbic's thread :eyes:

[Octafish]

68. How profound.

And who do you back, Forkboy?

[Forkboy]

75. Hey,I wasn't trying to be profound

just pointing out how easy you're duped because of your hate for Dean.

And,even though this is sure to ruin your preconcieved notion,I'm for Kucinich.

[arcos]

62. and exactly of how many people are Senators in charge of?

If you want to attack Dean's executive experience, fine. But then Kerry, Edwards, Sharpton and Moseley-Braun (don't know about Lieberman) have none.

[DemLikr]

51. I don't agree with some of Kerry's choices, but to question his "courage"

and frame it as somehow in contrast to his Vietnam service, seems really cheap and lazy and sleazy to me.

Oh, I forgot, standard american press tactics.

[Walt Starr]

94. Dean is nowhere near as liberal as I am

That said, the gun rights issue is one I happen to agree with Dean on 100%.

It is my considered opinion that the only way the Left will insure its rights under the first amendment is to be certain they exercise their rights under the second amendment.

[TLM]

111. Yeah I'd think with a thug like Bush in office...

dems and liberals would learn from the past and get armed.

If homeland security comes to my door to escort me to the relocation center, I'm taking out as many of those goose steping fucks as I can.

[TLM]

103. How is Dean not standing up for his positions...

Dean's position on guns has not been set by the NRA. Dean favors closing the gun show loop hole, the brady bill and the assalt weapons ban.

He simply does not favor any more federal gun control after that.


You can't attack that sound and reasonable position, so you have to attack Dean personaly and call him a wimp.

"He had nothing to lose by standing up against the war."

He had everything to lose if he'd been wrong. If he had been wrong, his presidential run would have been over before it started.

As it turns out, Kerry was the one who was wrong.

"He couldn't stop the civil unions bill without suffering consequences so he reluctantly signed on and now he acts like he invented it. "

Bullshit. Dean supported the law and worked to get it passed... and it damn near cost him the election.

[arcos]

26. You have a point... n/t

[Cha]

32. The mediawhores only go after Dems...bush is not fair game...

Yet! I'm hoping to see a Big Difference in the coming year!

Oh the day that the media rightly rips him up one page and down the other!

[SayitAintSo]

35. This looks like an OP/ED partisan baloney piece to me...

First of all ... the link doesn't work ... But of the bit you posted let me say this ....


Number 1 - I was there today in Charleston for the kick off and Kerry came on strong, much stronger than I have seen recently. Kerry's style is more articulate and instructional, not in media sound bytes and blustery rhetoric, like some other candidates. He doesn't have to 'sound brave', because he is brave. And that goes much further that his vietnam service (can you say BCCI, Iran Contra ?) He's got it, got holes in his t-shirt to prove it and doesn't have to shout it out.

Number 2 - How can you judge a person's military service by their personal delivery giving a speech ? What about Bush's false bravado " bring em' on, smoke 'em out, yada yada". I suppose the writer gets warm and squishy watching Bush, and we ALL know what a chicken hawk he is. <shaking head in disbelief>

Number 3 - the shot about a " well understood joke".... Isn't it a well known, common practice to formally announce your campaign ? even if you have been informally campaigning for some time ? Clinton did it - didnt' announce until October ! Edwards will be doing it later this month. <again, shaking head in amazement>

Number 4 - Oh forget it ..... this DOES seem like flame bait to me

[newsguyatl]

38. a flame bait?

are you serious???

it's an article from saletan from slate for crying out loud!!

it's a FREAKING article we're discussing... the poster didn't write it!

[SayitAintSo]

52. Yep ... Flame bait ... It's the way the article was presented/posed ...

The "Call up a friend.... Yada yada .... "... Or maybe it's just extremely shallow ... yep... could be that... if so...my mistake.

[newsguyatl]

37. OUCH!!!!!

i just read it... wow, that's gotta hurt...

just goes to show, too, how easy kerry is to pick on and label (unfortunately)...

with dean, they don't know HOW to label him... they don't know HOW to pick on him... and those who might have an idea, are too afraid :-)

[billbuckhead]

41. Dean's an NRA whore, that's how to label him. Another ex drunk like * who

All you people who line up with Dean line up with Wayne Lapierre, Charlton Heston, Ted Nugent and even Grover Freeping Norquist. Dean's such an NRA clown blower he won't even do a "sister souljah" to the gun lobby.

[newsguyatl]

44. let's see

you've called dean an "nra whore" an "ex drunk" an "nra clown blower" a "pathetic opportunist" a "wimp with no political courage" and his candidacy "a joke"... ALL this in one thread!


you should be very proud of yourself... you're a class act! i take it you're a kerry supporter?

[billbuckhead]

49. No I'm a NRA hater and Dean sucks NRA genitalia

I'll fight any NRA candidate.

[dsc]

45. How fucking long

do people have to be sober for people like you to give us credit. He hasn't had a drink in 23 fucking years. I am sick to death of people like you who throw up crap like that.

[DemLikr]

53. J. Kerry is an recovering alcoholic?

News to me...is this common knowledge?

If so, it just provides more evidence of the fact that a higher percentage of alcoholics are of above-average intelligence than in the general populace.

Shrub*, of course, being the exception which proves the rule.

It would take me a while to provide a link for that, but I have read this in reliable sources a number of times.

[billbuckhead]

59. No Dean is the one with the party animal biography

You should investigate Dean Quixote a little more before throwing your and America's lot in with him, his life is remarkably like Chimps. Didn't fight for or against the Vietnam war. Had a good time till he decided he had a higher calling a little later in life which may have a more than little to do with pleasing a distant demanding father.

[dsc]

65. No Dean is

and I don't know if recovering alcoholic fits as he appears to have just quit. Of course, if he were in AA he couldn't really say so.

[TLM]

115. Yeah I do not think he was an addict... doesn;t show the signs.

Rather I think he said he just stopped drinking because he didn't like it, and wasn't very good at it.

[billbuckhead]

58. Out of 10's of millions, can't we get a non drunk president?

Why do we question the courage of a Vietnam war hero who later went on to fight against the war in favor of an ex drunk whose biggest accomplishment was sucking up to the NRA in an unpopulated small rural state that doesn't hate gays as much as other progun states?

[dsc]

66. whatever

BTW if you can find one place where either I or Dean denegrated the man's courage I'll apologize for saying you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

[billbuckhead]

77. I'm denigrating Dean's courage, An NRA whore!

:puke:

[TLM]

114. Again what is heroic about killing people in an unjust war?

There is question as to Kerry killing a wounded and retreated VC solder... is that you idea of a hero?


The man tries to play both sides of the issue, he is pro-war hero... no now he is an anti-war hero. He threw his metals, no wait they weren't his.

He spends so much time on the fence ... no wonder he looks like a scarecrow.

[arcos]

63. do you think the same of Michael Moore?

he's an NRA member.

on edit: typo
on 2nd edit: typo again

[billbuckhead]

67. Didn't Micheal Moore vote for Nadir?

Isn't that enough said?

[arcos]

69. and uh... Nader is an NRA member? n/t

[billbuckhead]

83. Nadir and the NRA both helped select *

Michael Moore is just another stupid white guy who joined the NRA as far as I'm concerned.

[TLM]

112. Tell me something... it bugs you that Dean has an A from the NRA...

yet you have no problem with Kerry's militarism and his relationship with the military industrial complex?

[KoKo]

47. Well it's an honest enough question from someone who didn't live through

VietNam........It is.......

So, I don't have a problem with it.......

[HPLeft]

48. What A Terrible Title

It has nothing to do with courage. There's almost a NY-Boston thing going on here. Dean evidently has more than a little Bronx attitude still in him even after all those years in Vermont, and Kerry comes from a much more patrician, Bostonian space - which works very well in the Senate. But it's entirely possible that what works with activists who are ready to vote 4+ months before the beginning of the first primary may not carry through with the majority of voters who actually show on Primary Day. And John Kerry has done zero Television ads up to this point. I'd personally enjoy the challenge of trying to sell the story of the Doctor who wants to heal America, but I suspect that the story of a soldier-statesman with the stature to tower over Dubya in every possible way will eventually carry the day with post-9/11 Democratic Primary voters. Kerry is to Bush as Jack Kennedy is to Dan Quayle.

I think that Kerry just has to start running TV ads and the numbers will turn right around. There was some sort of national poll numbers reported today that put Lieberman ahead with 23%. Lieberman - the cure for insomnia. That's clearly due to superior name recognition. Kerry was down at 9%. The national audience doesn't know who he is, and needs to start learning more about his story.

[billbuckhead]

50. Challenging Kerry's courage is flame bait whoever says it.

If Democrats don't stand up for their war heros then we don't deserve to win. Kerry isn't my first, second, third or even fourth choice, but I'll defend him to the hilt against a punk like Dean.

[dsc]

55. and calling people drunks isn't

or punks. Like your miss manners.

[sfecap]

56. Yeah...it's all about war "heroes", huh?

They'd love you over at Freerepublic...

[TLM]

116. Yeah nothing makes aman more qualified to be president...

than murdering little yellow or brown people.


How can you be a an if you have never taken part in a senseless slaughter of people in another country?


Frankly I think saving lives, as Dr. Dean has done, is a far more honorable act.

I want a life saver in the White House, not a life taker.

[Terwilliger]

93. ok, so now a war hero is more impoortant than a doctor?

this infighting is pointless

do what I do...bash everything until they give you a satisfactory answer

you see I'm still bashing

[tjdee]

54. Hasn't Dean been running for more than a year?

I didn't even read it and already I get the spin.

Kerry announcing his campaign today is no different than Dean announcing a few weeks ago--but Kerry announcing is somehow a "well-understood joke"?

Whatever.

I'm so glad that I'm not pulling for any of the Yalies.

[arcos]

64. Plenty of people criticized that when he did. n/t

[SayitAintSo]

60. Having trouble with that 2nd link as well ....

What's the deal ?

[Karmadillo]

70. Is Saletan recycling the liberal media's Gore 2000 columns?

It's almost as if he was overcome by nostalgia for the trashing of Gore's announcement of his candidacy four years ago:

1. "the wooden guy in the white shirt"

2. "Kerry sits expressionless behind him, squinting and repeatedly touching various parts of his hair to make sure they’re in place" Note: He forgot to mention how much Kerry pays for his haircuts, but nobody's perfect.

3. "He’s as stiff as a GI Joe."

4. "He calls the audience “my fellow Americans.”"

He does update for 2004. The "thinner" criticism regarding Kerry's actions after coming under fire in Vietnam is worthy of Ann Coulter. I suppose Kerry should have made himself and his crew a bigger target and then cried out, "Bring 'em on!" But Saletan has to have a negative metaphor for Kerry's career, so "thinner" it is.

And there's also the bizarro Dean/Kerry taste test re: Vietnam. Watch 'em both and try to tell which one fought. Well, crap, since both Dean and Kerry look like rich, privileged white guys and, as we all know, those sorts of people tended to avoid service during that particular war, any reasonable person would guess neither fought. But, unfortunately for Saletan, Kerry really did fight. Heroically. Still, the point is to argue Kerry's not a fighter, so the taste test stays in.

Is there any analysis of what Kerry actually said (if I needed a hair, clothes, physical flexibility analysis, I'd tune to CNN to hear Candy Crowley)? Of course not. In fact, according to Saletan, Kerry said nothing at all:

"This is what audiences always have to wade through to get at whatever it is Kerry is trying to say: Nuggets of nothing, wrapped in pretentious rhetoric, compounded by the pretense of plain speaking."

Is this true? Kerry had nothing to say about the environment? About health care? About jobs? About taxes? About George W Bush? Nothing? Well, here's a link to the speech. It's not exactly a match for Kennedy's inaugural address, but it is worth looking at to see who it is who's offering up nuggets of nothing: Kerry or Saletan?

Note: I googled for Saletan's article on Bush's military desertion during a time of war. Apparently, there isn't one. Clearly this is a man perfectly suited to write about courage.

[billbuckhead]

71. Dean looks like the war hero? PUKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

:puke: How can we let the press (Slate?)(Saletin?) tell us that a real war hero/peace hero is somehow less courageous than a media star? After all the phony baloney about aWol landing on the carrier and saying the war was over , we pick a guy with no biography whatsoever because he "looks" like a fighter?

[JohnKleeb]

73. they could say that Kucinich looks geeky but

He is actually pretty atheltic, a big fan of baseball lol the only thing I disagree with him is the Cleveland Indians, but Dennis :) at least you guys won fair and swear in 97 it was heart breaking but earned. Dennis played catcher and was a football quarter back. I guess you could say Dennis was like my uncle. Also Kucinich worked his way through college, Ive heard Kerry did some work he didnt have to do as a kid which is nice.

[billbuckhead]

86. I have nothing but respect for Kucinich.

I don't think he can win, but I would be proud to campaign for him.

[JohnKleeb]

87. Thanks

I would do the same for Kerry a lot better than a lot give him credit for imho. I was just saying that some people say the media would call DK a geek when in reality he was like my uncle as a kid small but very athletic.

[Old and In the Way]

80. Pretty bizarre isn't it?

As smart as the DU board is in feretting out media BS, it seems that the detectors don't work nearly so well when the same media is stroking their personal candidate.

[paintgott]

74. Saletans politics

http://slate.msn.com/id/2080389

[Karmadillo]

85. Excellent find, paintgott. Saletan is pathetic.

Brilliant, brilliant advice for the antiwar movement.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2080389

<edit>

The theory has one flaw. Just because we have the ability to spare people's lives doesn't mean we have the will. Our military is so powerful that our generals could massacre the Iraqis if they wanted to. That's where restraining institutions are needed.

If you're an anti-war protester or politician, this theory of warfare should change the way you think and act. Your efforts to generate resistance to the war before there is any evidence of killing, much less atrocities, contribute to the political strength of the enemy regime. You encourage uncertainty about the war's outcome, increasing the likelihood that the regime's soldiers will fight and die. You make it more difficult to separate the regime from its people. You frustrate the tipping and bring on the crushing.

If you want to minimize the killing, stop resisting the war. Instead, do what you can to make the war transparent and to hold your government accountable for unnecessary deaths. Help the media and human rights organizations monitor the battlefield. Help them get reports and pictures to the people of your country and the world. Build an incentive system that will strengthen your government's will to spare lives. Its ability will do the rest.

more...

[gate of the sun]

76. what is true courage?

to play and not play the game.......and........who here can say they know what true courage is????????????I am not a Kerry fan so that is not what I am saying.......

[billbuckhead]

79. Courage is doing what is right when you could lose more than you gain.

Dean had nothing to lose opposing the Iraq war. Dean calculated he would come out the best by quitting his oppostion to civil unions.
Kerry counter attacked the Vietnamese Communists when he could have not engaged. Later, Kerry went against the Vietnam war when it did him little good. Think about it, he could could have been the "uber military industrial complex" champion.

[TLM]

119. "Dean had nothing to lose opposing the Iraq war. "

Other than the White House.

"Courage is doing what is right when you could lose more than you gain."

So logic would follow that cowardice is doing what is wrong because you could gain more than you'd lose.

Which is exactly what Kerry did when he voted for the Iraqi war... he made the choice to let Bush kill thousands of Iraqi civilians and hundreds of Kerry's fellow soldiers, because Kerry was afraid of what he might lose if he stood up and did what was right.

Kerry was afraid it might hurt his career if he did what was right, so he did what was wrong to cover his own ass... and so far almost 300 hundred US solders have been killed because of his cowardly selfish choice.

Thanks for proving the author's point about Kerry lack of courage.


Now for contrast, look at how Dean stood up for Civil unions in his state, even though he was getting death threats and it almost cost him the election. He did what was right despite what he could lose.

[Old and In the Way]

78. Wow, I just realized something..........

we are soooo screwed in 2004.

This thread has convinced me that if we can't agree to support all of the candidates on a positive note, it's pretty doubtful we can expect to be untited enough to defeat Bush.

If the level of insults is this bad now, what's it going to be like in 6 months? Sadly, I think we forget that this isn't just our little cafeteria for conducting food fights....we got lots of new people coming here to learn about the candidates...I suspect that this thread would convince many that the kids really are in charge here.

[billbuckhead]

81. If Dean really cared about progress in America he would withdraw.

He has no biography to entitle him to challenge to be POTUS. EVERYBODY IS AGAINST THE WAR NOW. Dean took a chance when it could hurt him little but elected Dems serving really couldn't take the chance, either because of re-election concerns, anthrax terrorism by the BFEE or plane crashes. Dean fights when it's easy to fight.

[HFishbine]

95. "but elected Dems serving really couldn't take the chance"

and that's courageous?

[billbuckhead]

96. Look what happened to Wellstone or Cynthia McKinney

Since Dean is Rove's favorite Dem nowdays I'm sure we will see more articles in the corporate media saying Dean looks more like a war hero than Kerry.

[TLM]

121. So you admit, they voted for the war knowing it was wrong...

because they were afraid.

This thread is about how Kerry is not courageous. And you admit that is true. He did what he knew was wrong, because he was worried about his job.

Kerry chose himself and his job over the lives of hundreds of American solders and thousands of Iraqi civilians.

[salin]

104. Thank you for advocating

that some voters shouldn't have their choice of candidate in the primary because YOU don't like him.

I would never advocate this for any candidate.

The tone behind your anti posts on this thread cross the fervorous line towards arrogance.

Yea limit electoral choice before the first primary... because a single DUer knows better than anyone else what is good for America. :eyes:

[TLM]

120. You hit a problem I have with Kerry and his ilk

they feel that they are entitled to this office, like it belongs to them.

The office belongs tot he people, and Dean knows that, and that's why he's 21 points ahead of Kerry.

"EVERYBODY IS AGAINST THE WAR NOW.'

FOllowing in Dean and Kucinich's footsteps. THey knew the war was wrong all along and they did what was right.


"Dems serving really couldn't take the chance, either because of re-election concerns, anthrax terrorism by the BFEE or plane crashes."

Bullshit. Dean stood up for civil unions when he was getting death threats over it. Kucinich stood against the war in congress.

Kerry and Lieberman and Gephardt voted for the war because they are career minded cowards. THey cared more about their jobs than the lives of our soldiers and the civilians in Iraq.

[OrdinaryTa]

82. Kerry's War Record

He earned the Silver Star and Bronze Star and was wounded three times

It's my understanding that Kerry has refused reporters access to the records of those decorations. They may not be as glorious as they sound. For all the talk of Kerry's bravery, it's possible that in each case he did the bare minimum required for those awards.

The award citations can be massaged into shape by friends of the awardees. It's no great trick. Kerry was an O-3, and the guy writing the citation was an O-3. (That's the level these things are written at.) Did these two guys know each other? Quite possibly they did.

Kerry's purple hearts strain credulity. Three of them in four months, are you kidding me? Only one of them (the bad one) was disabling enough that he was considered not fit for duty afterwards. Even at that, Kerry's injury kept him out of action for only two days.

Kerry's war record sounds to me like that of a guy puffing up his resume so he can use it in a political campaign. His silver star consisted of chasing (and possibly back-shooting) a single enemy soldier who may have been already wounded. I don't know about his bronze star. Officers generally get them just for showing up.

Kerry could put some of this speculation to rest by allowing reporters to examine the records in detail. I don't really trust the guy. I think he's a sneak, and I also think that it's Kerry's biggest political liability. He's just not trustworthy.

[billbuckhead]

84. Any links for these claims? Or is it just slander from the NRA gun whores?

:puke:

[GalleryGod]

92. JAFO

:puffpiece:

[OrdinaryTa]

118. NRA Gun Whores

I have no connection at all with the NRA.

People do not want to believe that the award system is manipulable, but in fact it is. The military likes giving awards! Because Kerry is a manipulator and a sneak, I don't take his military record at face value. It's been alleged that his silver star was for back-shooting a cripple. I don't necessarily believe that, but the documentation for the award came from his subordinates. He admits that he pulled strings for them and got them soft duty. His own tour lasted only four months.

Are you getting the impression that I have a grudge against Kerry? I do. That vote on the war was unforgiveable. It really pissed me off and I haven't forgotten it.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

91. His record against the Vietnam war is what's heroic.

Despite his current cautiousness-yes, I agree with that judgement-I still regard him as a hero for speaking to a senate sub-commitee representing vets against the war and saying right out loud that the atrocities of Mai Lai were not an aberration but the norm and were the real horror story in Vietnam, not the Communists. He scared the shit out of Nixon. Forget the action medals-he spoke the most blasphemous truth to power at a key moment in US history. His personal integrity can rest on those damn laurels as far as I'm concerned. I'm just worried that he's showing the charisma of Gore and could again lose the know-nothing cross-over vote that's necessary to oust King George the Reckless.

[salin]

106. The REAL actions are always more important than the symbolic

when judging a person and or candidate. His actions during the war and after the war (speaking to congress, when despite the anti-war movement, in the 'mainstream public' there was a huge backlash against those speaking out), are to me, much more important than the medals story.

Unfortunately by the same token, I found the rhetoric he used (caution and warnings against unilateral action) while turning around and voting for the war resolution last year, less than convincing. That is the symbolic (the rhetoric) was less meaningful than the vote.

In the end I can get over the vote (I am a political realist), but the vote is noted, and does factor in - especially when his rhetoric sounded more like one who would vote against it ala Graham - during my selection of primary candidate. Then again my vote for primary candidate presumably won't mean much as the INdiana primary isn't until May - and these things are usually settled long before then.

[OrdinaryTa]

113. Kerry's Going Nowhere

Kerry just isn't likeable enough to get by on personal appeal alone. He needs issues behind him, and he doesn't have them. He's just another waffling politician.

Kerry's supporters do very well in literary exegesis, discerning hidden meanings in the text of his actions. Do not take his votes at face value - we are told. He is far more subtle than that. Yeah, well, OK. But I don't believe it. Politicians have to be accountable for what they do, not for the subtext hidden within.

Sorry, John. Tell your story walking. You had your chance to stand up for humane values, and you didn't.

[TLM]

122. Yeah it bugs me that a man who gained so much political capital

from attacking the senseless unjustfied war in vietnam mainly because of the toll on our vets, would turn around and send a whole new batch of young men and women into a conflict that has the makings to be even worse.

How could someone who knows how horrible war is, and who fought the war because it was hurting so many vets, turn around and support a new vietnam?

Seems there is a pattern of Kerry supporting wars, just so he can then turn around and fight them for political gain.

[Zolok]

123. Sadly

almost every democratic nominee since Winfield Hancock has been forced to go back on a sensible policy towards Cuba...and that includes the Big Dog and Al Gore.
Whats the problem?

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com