Is it true that Dennis Kucinich is against Flag Burning?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

Why is that? Isn't that resticting our freedom of speech and expression?

[JohnKleeb]

1. flag descration and to be fair hes the only candiate who voted against the

patriot act and hes gonna introduce legislation to repeal it. Believe me I disagree with him on this too but his good issues overwhelmingly make him supportable.

[Castilleja]

54. I thought Russ Feingold voted against it as well?

Or am I mistaken?? :shrug:

[ButterflyBlood]

57. Feingold isn't running

[Castilleja]

65. OOPS! Missed the "candidate" part!

Sorry!

:dunce: = Me

[Pepperbelly]

2. as a matter of form and taste, I am against flag buring although ...

I do not think that laws making it a crime are either good policy or constitutional. I also do not favor an amendment on the subject, believing instead that the first amendment serves admirably.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

3. I'm all for flag burning

I mean it reinforces that you still have the freedom of speech in this country. A flag is a flag

[Pepperbelly]

4. to each his own ...

I just find it polarizing and self-defeating electorally for those who do it.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

5. hmmm

it's like when the womens in the 60's burned bras. IT wasn't the bra it was more of the burning off the opression away. A flag is a means not an end

[Pepperbelly]

10. if your interest is electoral politics rather than participatory ....

protest politics, you should not support waltzing into the middle of the living room and shitting on the carpet. Like I said, it is a matter of form and taste and what will actually affect policy rather than provoking confrontation.

[kysrsoze]

49. I don't have any urge per se, to burn a flag, but...

I'd better damned well have the right to.

[goobergunch]

6. Correct. Here's his statement on the topic.

HON. DENNIS J. KUCINICH

in the House of Representatives

THURSDAY, JUNE 12, 1997

Mr. KUCINICH. Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of the constitutional amendment which would prohibit desecration of the American flag. Each day millions of Americans place their hands over their hearts and pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. Think of the words in that pledge:

`I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, One Nation, under God, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.' Think of the power of this act of affirmation of flag, God, and the Unity of our Nation and you begin to understand why so many Americans support this amendment, and why people have fought for the flag and died for the flag. We send people around the world to defend the flag. This amendment lets us defend it here at home.

The very constitutional protections which all Americans are guaranteed today exist because of the commitment which people have to the highest ideals of our nation as expressly symbolized by the flag. It is not just a piece of cloth. The flag proudly stands as the emblem of our Nation. And I am proud to stand in support of the flag.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=1997_record&page=E1218&position=all

[JohnKleeb]

7. I cant use that as a litmus test

sorry but other than that and his past abortion view hes good. With all candiates you are gonna find something you dont like, and I support DK all the way but I do disagree with him on that.

[goobergunch]

14. I wouldn't either

The President has absolutely no authority regarding flag burning other than the bully pulpit. However, I believe in posting as much information as is necessary to make a judgement...and that's his most recent statement on the subject.

[JohnKleeb]

16. Yeah I understand that

Youre just informing people thats ok. I disagree with on that too but other than that hes great.

[diamondsoul]

13. THANK YOU, goober!

Seriously, I've been looking for this and apparently didn't hit the right keywords to find the statement!

[Festivito]

61. This flag issue shows how badly our ideas have faded.

If our ideas were still strong in mind, flag burning would be as important as controling bird poop from landing on cars. The car is still driveable, so useable the poop doesn't matter.

If only the use of the Constitution would be as clear to us so that none of this flag burning discussion would ever have existed.

A beautiful world would have no desecration of icons by people free to do so.

NOTE MY SIG LINE:

[maxsolomon]

8. red herring

who cares? this is, or should be, a non-issue.

pols only care about this shite in election years.

[seventhson]

26. AGREED. It is at least six years old. Not applicable today.

It's a Rovian issue: sow a little confusion to discredit the dude with the left.

I figure as long as we keep supporting Dennis (I WILL vote for him again in the MoveOn poll) then Dean will keep moving left a little bit at a time.


It is a nonissue today unless he says it again and he'd BETTER not. It is a dumb statement and expresses total contempt for the Constitution.

Open that door and the hellish wasps and hogs will fly in in droves to remake the whole shebang.

SHUT UP ON THAT ONE DENNIS!!!!

[arcos]

46. Just a few weeks ago he voted in favor of it, AGAIN...

http://clerkweb.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2003&rollnumber=234

[DealsGapRider]

9. I think anyone who burns the American flag...

...should have his ass whipped. If I saw a flag burner in the flesh, I would punch him right in his goddamned teeth.

But I think the amendment to criminalize flag desecration is pure stupidity. One of the things that makes this country so great is that we have the freedom to burn the flag.

[seventhson]

11. Jeez Fascist protecting free speech?

I dunno, man.


When you punch someone for burning a flag youy are pissing on the Constitution.


And THAT is worth fighting about.


Kucinich loses favor in my eyes. Subvert the Constitution for a "symbol"? That is sheer stupidity.

If Kucinich is dumb enough to support a Constitutional amendment on this issue he is not smart enough to be my favoriate candidate anymore.

Burn the flag? That is nowhere near the desecration Bush has done to it: he has wiped his dirty ass on it and thrown it in the face of every human being on this earth, saying "Here! Smell This. It's AMURRRIKKKA!!!" No, the flag holds no special meaning for ME, except the oppression of poor people globally by the rich people who control us.

Sometimes when the flag has been shit on and is used to fling shit on the innocent, it needs to be burned, frankly.


On EDIT: THIS SPEECH of Kucinich is SIX YEARS OLD !!! OR MORE!!!

I take back what I said. It does NOT apply today.

If he said the same thing TODAY, however, I would say he is too dumb to be President.

If protesting the corruption of the State by burning the symbol of it (especially when the State has been taken over by corporate fascists as it HAS been) is not freedom of expression protected by the Constitution then this country is no longer even pretending to be free.

[JohnKleeb]

12. Its one issue relax

I dont agree with him on everything too.

[DealsGapRider]

18. No way.

"When you punch someone for burning a flag youy are pissing on the Constitution."

I don't see how you draw this conclusion. Just because the Constitution gives you the right to express yourself doesn't mean that there are not boundaries of good taste. Your post makes it sound like anytime a citizen objects to the way another citizen expresses himself, he's "pissing on the Constitution."

Remember that asshole who went to Matthew Shephard's funeral and shouted to his greiving parents that their gay son was in hell? That asshole's speech was protected by the Constitution, too? But if someone had kicked his teeth down his damned throat, would they be "pissing on the Constitution"? Hell no.

[seventhson]

23. Yes way!Violence to silence dissent for the corruption of the flag by Bush

and his ilk?

If you promote violence against those who use the symbol for symbolic protest you are pissing on the Constitution.

THAT is freedom of expression. Violence to our Constitutional rights is like pssing on the flag to me.

You examples neglect the fact that you promote violence against one making such a statement. Not just for expressing thgeir opinion.

[DealsGapRider]

30. Equating Bush with the American flag...

...is reprehensible in and of itself. The flag doesn't represent Bush and Bush doesn't represent the flag. The flag is an enduring symbol of the nation, while Bush is just a temporary aberration that the country will survive in good order, notwithstanding the hyperventilation on DU about how America is soon to become a dictatorship like Cuba.

Oh wait, I keep reading on this board that Cuba is a vibrant democracy.

[seventhson]

35. True colors emerging, Deals

The country as we may know and love it is NOT surviving.

Hyperventilation?

Hell, we can barely get anyone in the Democrats to even fucking breath except here at DU.

Gasping with suffocatioon is more like it.

[Pepperbelly]

29. I did spend some years of my life defending their right to do that very ..

thing and even though I disapprove of it and find it foolish and provocative, I still defend their right to do it and to not be beaten for excercising unpopular speech.

[DealsGapRider]

32. I wouldn't advocate the government being allowed to beat such morons.

Just everyday Americans who think such behavior is abominable.

[Terwilliger]

34. can we hang you for utter ignorance?

we wont ask the government if they'll condone it :bounce:

[Pepperbelly]

38. as a patriot ...

I condemn the notion of physically assaulting someone for exercising their freedom of speech, no matter how much I may or may not disagree with it. Did you spend time in the military defending it? If so, and if you'll remember, the oath you swore was to protect and defend the US Constitution, not a scrap of cloth.

[diamondsoul]

40. Ok, whoah, please.

I feel a need to interject at this point even without having read every post in the thread.

We're supposed to respect each other. Granted. We're supposed to support and respect consititutional rights. Granted. You still can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater because it's dangerous. You can't walk the streets screaming "KILL ALL THE (insert favorite ethinic/racial/religious/etc. slur)" at the top of your lungs. Burning crosses in a black or African-American's yard is considered a "hate-crime".

Look there are limits, even on the First Amendment. PB, I have enormous respect for you. I even respect your differing opinion from mine on this subject. I want to make clear this response is to the discussion from start until this point as opposed to a single person.
There are limits, necessary limits. Provocation is defense, people. Inciting a riot is a defense to responding to that provocation or inciting with violence. Do I agree with violence as a response? Condone it? No, not in any way. I DO, however, comprehend it. I would not have blamed, accused or even charged anyone in Matthew Shepards family if they had beaten that man to within an inch of his life. I contend he BEGGED for it.

Furthermore, if you're so heartless, so inconsiderate of others that you would stage a flag-burning to be faced by people it will psychologically and emotionally devastate, I submit you are guilty of reckless indifference and what happens is your own fault. Those people exist and should NEVER be dismissed as less important than words on paper, no matter how much I adore those words and respect them. There ARE necessary limits.

Having said that, I do not agree with Congressman Kucinich's vote itself. I DO agree with the intent, the premise, and the ideals behind his vote. I WISH that all of humanity were as careful of the sensibilities of others, as aware of the pain and suffering of others, as understanding of how much that "piece of cloth" means to some, as Congressman Kucinich appears to be.

Protestors, I would implore you to consider this one thing. There are American Citizens who have suffered greatly, some have given the ultimate sacrifice, others have come home permanently physically or psychologically changed, and we expect more of them every day. THINK of them. Consider before you act just what that "piece of cloth" represents to them, and how a deliberate destruction of that same "piece of cloth" will strike them on a psychological level. Maybe take some time to talk to survivors of Normandy, or Viet Nam and ask them what that flag meant when they saw it. Ask them what it means now when they see it, and just consider the answers.

Consider your purpose, consider your fellow humans and your countrymen before you act in a way you may not intend. Think about limits to free speech and why they are there, consider our laws and why we set them, and think of each other. Think of those who have offered up their safety and lives before you set that "piece of cloth" aflame and hurt men and women who did what they believed was right. Think of the message it sends them, and think of the message it sends other Americans today. Weigh it. Is it worth it to hurt someone who already hurts worse than most of us will ever know?

I can't see how, but that's just me. And apparently Congressman Kucinich agreed, some time ago.

[Pepperbelly]

45. while in post after post above ...

I pointed out that it was in poor taste, polarizing, counterproductive and generally pretty silly, I still must defend the right to do so. I mean, unpopular speech should be even more vigorously protected than popular speech or otherwise, freedom of speech is little more than freedom to high-five in support of the government.

My alleigence is to the Constitution, not to a scrap of cloth.

[kysrsoze]

50. He's also advocating violence

n/t

[Terwilliger]

33. we have the freedom to burn the flag, but you'll punch us in the teeth

does that mean you're un-American?

[Forkboy]

47. get back to us when you have a liberal thought

[Blue_Chill]

15. Flag burning is moronic and insulting

but I wouldn't make it illegal. Then again I wouldn't call the cops if a flag burner got his ass kicked either....well as long as I was sure he'd make it thru alive and with his spinal cord fully functioning.

[seventhson]

19. GOOD CHRISTIAN FELLOW.!You should remove that cross from your ID

I am amazed at the ignorabce and meanness of people who pretend to be Christians or who pretend to believe in the values of America.


There is a provision in the Declaration of Independence that says if our government becomes corrupt then we must overthrow it.

If the flag is the symbol of Bush and his ilk, then it needs to be burned. Of course I KNOW that the flag means more than that to many.

But to me it really represents mostly injustice and cruelty (as well as a noble experiment that ultimately may still fail if we think there is more to being American by brutalizing those we disagree with than letting a free man or person express themselves freely.

[Blue_Chill]

25. yawn

I am amazed at the ignorabce and meanness of people who pretend to be Christians or who pretend to believe in the values of America.

1- Sorry but if you insult me, I may not let you get seriously hurt, but I won't shed a tear when you learn a painful lesson. You choose your path, don't bitch when it gets bumpy.

2- I don't know what "values of America" are. There is not a consistent enough message from this nation for me to see a clear message. On one hand this nation installs dictators on the other it has done great good in the world.

3- I do know this, my mother and father gave up everything to bring me to this nation, and this country gave me chances I wouldn't have had in Chile. So when someone burns the flag it pisses me off.

There is a provision in the Declaration of Independence that says if our government becomes corrupt then we must overthrow it.

You don't overthrow anything by burning a flag you just piss people off.

If the flag is the symbol of Bush and his ilk, then it needs to be burned. Of course I KNOW that the flag means more than that to many.

Burn a flag with a GOP symbol on it. If you know it means more then that and burn it anyway then you are pissing people off on purpose, and you say I am mean.....pffft.

But to me it really represents mostly injustice and cruelty (as well as a noble experiment that ultimately may still fail if we think there is more to being American by brutalizing those we disagree with than letting a free man or person express themselves freely.

Like I said I wouldn't stop you from burning a flag, but I wouldn't be all that friendly either.

You done or do I have to hear more about how I must behave if I am to use this avatar? yawn....

[seventhson]

31. Barf

You Said:


" I wouldn't make it illegal. Then again I wouldn't call the cops if a flag burner got his ass kicked either....well as long as I was sure he'd make it thru alive and with his spinal cord fully functioning."


Is this what they taught you in Chile?

But seriously, I realize thius is said with tongue in cheek, I hope.

An American (or a Christian for that matter) would call the cops to PREVENT such violence.

When the violence is directed at someone protesdting injustice and you let them get their ass kicked without using the law to try to protect them, that subverts democracy.

I KNOW Chile was a hellhole. My father was there.

He tried to stop it. And he tasught me what to value.

Nationalism and blindly following the Nationalistic sentiments of the right is suicidal and kills democracy.

I will lighten up though. I just think a man who uses the cross should not IMHO promote suffering of those who protest oppression and unrighteousness.

[Forkboy]

48. Blue Chill as always

shows what a shining example of religion he is :)

[kysrsoze]

52. I believe Scarface loved America too

WTF? What kind of Christian are you? Seriously.

[Forkboy]

59. The hypocritical kind

[kysrsoze]

51. God bless the flag and all who would punch its descrators in the teeth

[Coffee Coyote]

53. he also advocates CIA-sponsored killings

Why he can still post here remains a major enigma.

[Forkboy]

60. And dont forget he argues for creationism

what a liberal that Blue Chill is :eyes:

[goobergunch]

17. WHAT THE "FLAG BURNING" AMENDMENT DOES

The amendment gives the Congress the power to pass a law outlawing the desecration of the flag. It does NOT outlaw flag desecration...that would be passed following amendment passage with a clearer definition.

[Booberdawg]

20. Thank you

Sometimes we need the younger ones here with cooler and more objective heads to explain things to people. Some people just look for trouble, I swear.:eyes:

[JohnKleeb]

21. goob is a lot better than that than me

[goobergunch]

22. thanks

but you do a pretty good job yourself.

[JohnKleeb]

24. thanks I try

being impartial is tough work and looking up on the facts.

[Booberdawg]

27. I've never seen you lose your cool John

[JohnKleeb]

28. I try my best not to although at times its hard

[Darranar]

36. This issue...

is the one issue on which Kucinich's stance bothers me most. I am no single-issue person, but this flag-burning amendment was a blatant attack on our freedoms and our civil liberties.

I will support Kucinich as long as there is no better candidate, but his stance on this is the only thing that has so far forced me to reconsider my views on him.

[seventhson]

37. His statement is more than SIX YEARS OLD. It is IRRELEVENT toiday

unless he says it again.

I doubt he will (unless he's like in Miami or something)

[Darranar]

39. But has he announced his stance on the issue...

since then? Until he does, I will assume that his stance is what it was six years ago.

[diamondsoul]

42. Just FTR, I'm working on getting a current postion

on this subject from Congressman Kucinich. I don't know that he'll choose to address it, but I'm asking him to.

As Goobergunch pointed out this particular bill would not outlaw flag-burning on its own. Another law would have to be passed to do that. Even so, I genuinely agree with the Congressman's statements on the matter. Maybe that's because I've known so many who survived war and I know what the flag meant to them, I don't know.

All I know is I respect him for his position whether I agree with the vote or not.

[Pastiche423]

43. Wait a sec

Din't Dennis vote for the amendment just a few months ago?

[arcos]

62. He voted for it AGAIN... in JUNE of this year.

See post #46:



46. Just a few weeks ago he voted in favor of it, AGAIN...


http://clerkweb.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2003&rollnumber=234

[ShaneGR]

41. I'm not a Kucinich supporter but....

who the hell cares? It's a dumb wedge issue. Lets talk about the economy, or war, or abortion rights, etc.

[diamondsoul]

44. That too, and thanks for pointing it out!

I posted this long rebuttal, but not too long ago I said the same thing you did...wth made me change directions? Damn I hate Homer Simpson moments. "DOH!"

[Tinoire]

55. Flag Burning- Answering it simply from my heart

and from having seen Dennis in person and seen the tears in the eyes of 60 year old vets in their wheel-chairs as he addressed the real concerns of these men who had bled for that flag and been tossed aside by an ungrateful nation.

(cut and paste from an older post of mine)

As a 20 year vet, frankly I could care less if people use the flag as toilet paper and I don't get riled up about the issue one way or another because to me it's just a ridiculous, manipulative piece of cloth that both the anti and pro FBA people are making too much of an issue over.

That said. It is still the flag of this country. A flag that was supposed to stand for good and decency. A flag for which many, whether right or wrong, went and shed their blood when asked. It used to be a flag that was respected and admired by down-trodden people all over the world who believed the words "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. ... "

Kucinich is the son of a poor family that spent many lights sleeping in their car and he loves his country and its people. He also loves the flag and all it was supposed to stand for. What he wants to do is restore the honor and dignity of that flag.

The second time I saw Kucinich was in a room full of REAL patriots- it was at the Veterans for Peace Conference in San Francisco Friday & Saturday.

The room was packed with men like S Brian Wilson, a Vietnam veteran who in 1987 had his legs cut off at Concord, California, when he lay down in front of a train to protest a Naval train carrying weapons headed for Central America.

Kate Berrigan, the daughter of Father Berrigan

Rachel Corrie's parents Craig and Cindy Corrie

Representatives from Military Families Speak out

and hundreds of vets, disabled vets who lost a limb or part of their life for that flag.

And they, they too, would like to see that flag honored.

In that light is how you look at Kucinichs vote of the FBA.

Blind rage is not an answer. The blind rage to destroy out of anger and pain are not the answer. The answer is to fix the problem and on that I agree with him 100%.

Peace

[sasquatch]

56. I don't think he approves of it but, he doesn't want to outlaw it

Sort of like his stance on Abortion

[bitchkitty]

58. Ha! At first I thought your post said "Hog Burning".

Which I'm totally against. Flag-burning is not an issue for me.

[Must_B_Free]

63. OH MY GOD!!!! FLAG BURNING!

what a CRITICAL ISSUE! flag burning is so important to me! Of all of the issues in the universe ever to be decided in the entire history and future of time itself, FLAG BURNING is most certainly the singlemost important one!

Especially considering that 'flag burning' as an act doesn't even tell us if it means 'defacing the flag', or 'the proper method of retiring the flag'.

Yeah, flag burning is just, everything.

[Tinoire]

64. You really have to wonder don't you?

Millions of people dying... Millions set to die if we don't stop the mad track both parties have put us on (because the Republicans didn't vote through those fat Pentagon budgets all by themselves)... and people are worried about flag-burning?!

Forget flag burning! Let's worry about whose holding that flag!!!!