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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:18 PM
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't know why any true blue Democrats would be
attacking either Kerry or Dean, especially since they are coming through for us so powerfully. I think the attacks are coming from other camps. No Democrats should engage in these bash fests IMHO.
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. You make a good point!
Six months ago any DU'er would have jumped for joy at what Kerry and Dean are saying about Bush. Now, the Dean vs. Kerry supporters are too busy trying to kill each other than pay attention.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. Are you forgetting about Kerry slamming Dean today?
Yeah, I guess Dean supporters should just shut up, and let Kerry skewer their candidate with lies.

In case you're not aware of the slam that I'm talking about, I've included a link to the article. Kerry is shameless, the same day that he says GWB was "dead wrong" on the war he also says that Dean was wrong. Kerry will be a disaster for our party if he gets the nomination.

http://publicbroadcasting.net/opb/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=541263
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You are way off base...reread my post.
You make a post claiming that we should "all just get along" but you ignore the fact that Kerry made a slam against Dean today. Dean shouldn't reply? Kerry is the only one allowed to attack other candidates by name?
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Kanola Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. As a Dean supporter I disagree
There are going to be critical disagreements between our candidates and if one cannot take the heat they should get the hell out. What the Repugs are planning to do is far more hideous as far as namecalling, lies, ad nauseuam.

I love that Kerry kicked Woodruff's ass this morning. Great!!! I will support him as the nominee if Dean does not get it with pleasure.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. As a Dean supporter you disagree with what?
That Dean should reply when another candidate smears him by name? Please clarify your statement, I'm happy that Kerry is finally going after Bush too but at the same time I shouldn't have to sit nonresponsively while he attacks Dean.
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Kanola Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Cmon Dean has had a few digs at Kerry's expense
That is the nature of politics and the competition that goes with the territory. I am not going to rise to a flamebait and go after Kerry for what I might disagree with him on. I love Dean's directness and ability to answer direct questions, but that does not mean I am going to spend my time slamming Kerry or any other front runner candidate because I may not see the same quality that I think is strong for Dean.

Kerry has a great liberal record that has been consistent for years. I love that he kicked Woodruff's scrawny ass this morning.

If you are so hypersensitive to attacks from Kerry on Dean ... then you are ill prepared for Rove and CO are planning to do.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Hmmm...hypersensitive or naive...which to be????
Well I'll take hypersensitive. I'm dumbfounded by your post. You say that you are not going to slam Kerry or any other candidate but you'll ignore the fact that Kerry slammed Dean. ??? Is that right? Is that what you meant to say, it's okay for Kerry to slam Dean but you would never slam Kerry?
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Tanketra Donating Member (122 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. So you're saying ...
... that we should be prepared to sit idly by and pretend nothing happened when Rove and Co. slams our candidate in the general election?

Not really following that line of reasoning ...
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yep....
Edited on Wed Sep-03-03 09:40 PM by onehandle
And we have no idea who the actual Nominee will be. What happens next year when we Really need to unify?

Oh and there are Trolls aplenty at DU, imo.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Amen, Brother!
Let's focus on the common enemy and get him out of office in '04.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Yes, the common enemy!
The Judean People's Front!! Splitters!
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kerry Didn't Do It When It Counted
Now that the danger to his political career is over, Kerry jumps up and says "I knew it, I knew it!" He didn't take any risks when it might have made a difference. As a big time player on the national stage, he could have said very loudly that the invasion of Iraq had nothing at all to do with fighting terrorism. It might have cost him support among right wingers, and Kerry was too chicken to risk it.

The action step here is: Do not vote for Kerry. Let him be the victim of circumstances as one of the Democrats who self-destructed by paying too much attention to Republicans and not enough attention to Democrats. It's really too late for a do-over. He didn't do it when it mattered, and now his opposition to the war is unremarkable.

Big deal, John. Where were you when we needed a strong Democratic leader to assert our values? You took us for granted.



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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. I agree with you Pete
But we've got 2 Dean naysayers right out of the gate. It's been that way for months now.

How many more? All of you need to get in here and speak your peace.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Neither of the "Dean naysayers" attacked other DU'ers in this post...
you on the other hand just did. Seems that you are proving the original post.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. You said you couldn't stop
You had to keep bashing Kerry. The other poster said the same thing. That IS the point. Every time anybody has ever posted anything like this, oh never mind. It's not going to work, that's all.
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Kanola Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Sand.. I like Kerry
I hope you don't think because I support Dean formost that I will not back up Kerry. I will and delight in the successes that Kerry is having at Shrub 43's expense. Believe me, I will work like hell to get Kerry nominated if he is the chosen one. I am preferential to Dean but not so subjective that I lose sight of what is the eye on the prize in 2004. No more Shrub 43
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
13. All I have heard from Kerry, is platitudes.
I have nine criterea set up to define "fight" Kerry hasn't met one of them. Dean has. But decide for yourself.

How to recognize a fighting democrat when you see one.
I am extremely critical of the Democrats. Their performances to the recent three year long crises have been disgusting, if not treasonous in its own right. Of course, the DLC apologists usually hit us over the head with "what would you have them do?" And it’s a valid criticism.

Here is an answer to that charge. I have come up with eight criteria that would define "fight." And all though we have seen a few Democratic candidates practice one or more. No one has yet risen to all three.

One: To oppose bad law. Not to try to "soften" bad law with amendments to make its passage. A good example is Bush's recent tax cuts. The democrats managed to put in a per-child tax cut previsions, making the law more palatable to the public as well as within its own members to vote for it, or risk being painted as being against the child tax credit by the Republicans. But later, when talk arose about repealing the tax cuts, the dems were slammed over the head by wanting to repeal their own softening provisions. Bad law, such as the tax cuts, must be fully and completely opposed.

Two: To be a voice and advocate for the record. And to use that record of you're opponent, against your opponent. The silences from the Democrats on many issues are defining when all they have to do, is speak the record. What IS in the Patriot act? What is the record with the war on Iraq. A Democrat needs to be nothing more than an echo for the past. But the DLC considers such tactics as "negative campaigning" and opposes it. And certainly the Republicans call this "mud throwing." But they are shooting the messenger, and it is a form of censorship, and enables the Republicans to carry out their agenda.

Three: To challenge your opponents through debate and argument. Currently the Republicans have a secrete agenda. A secrete that is held out in plain view, but still never talked about. There is PNAC, Enron, and a whole host of scandals. But the first step to evading responsibilities is to never be asked critical questions. We all know the press won't ask them, but why won't the Democrats ask them?

During the 2000 campaign, Gore limited himself to just three debates under highly controlled conditions that favored Bush. We kept waiting for Gore to tarry Bush apart. But you can't do that if you aren't asking any questions!

Here is the thing. The Republicans love to shoot their mouths off. We have seen them shoot themselves in the foot over and over and over again. But you can see more of this if you start pushing the Repugs buttons, working the debate and trick them into taking the mask off. The court of public opinion will do the rest. But only if you engage them in debate.

And channels of debate need not be a TV exchange. A democrat need send no more than a certified letter with a request for a response. But so to there is the telephone, e-mail, and public message boards. If the republican declines to respond, then you send another letter, then make the charge that "republicans are afraid to debate."

Four: To be a servant and advocate to the spirit of the law. Even if this means that you must violate the letter of the law in upholding its spirit. And you must be prepared to engage in civil disobedience if necessary. The Texas Killer Ds are holding true to this call.

Five: To speak directly to the people. Currently, Gore and Clinton only speak for paid engagements. And shortly before I write this, Kerry spoke in Dallas Texas without even informing the precinct Captain that he was going to be there. This particular captain just happened to be one of the hosts of Radio Left, and would have covered the event, and would have given him a favorable interview. But this didn't happen. Before then, Radio left tried to seeks to find a Democratic congressmen or representative to interview on the air. The only got an answer machine. But a Republican Representative (not some mer staffer) was available within hours for an interview. This what Radio Left referees to as a road map to failure. During the 2002 campaign, when we were critical of the DLC's silence, they answered back with an obscure reference to "a secrete plan."

In contrast is Howard Dean has made him vary public. He has an online Blog, speaks regularly, and has the Dean meet ups at his disposal. When the media attacks him, he responds decisively within 24 hours. He has already taken up Radio Left's offer to an interview.

But there is more. Stump speeches, though for the moment, can not pierce the media blockade against democratic speakers. And they are meaningless to the masses who are not able to make it to the event. Dean needs to flood his web sight with MP3 of his speeches, and write regularly on the issues. He must relearn the art of ordination.

Six: To be persistent and relentless. Governor Davis recently made headlines with the words "Republicans can only work to steal elections they can not win." Truer words were never spoken, and it even made headlines in the so called "liberal media." Now THIS is fight. But what has he done sense? Such momentum is worthless is one is now willing or able to back them up. To press his attack, Davis needs to call attention to Diebold and other voting problems prevalent in his state.

Seven: To show leadership to the public. Currently, liberals and progressive are doing every thing within their power to organize marches against the war, and against other issues seen as priorities of the GOP. But it is becoming apparent that such organizations are not possible without leadership. In time, persons will stand out from the crowd, and have the pretenses and influence to rise to leadership roles. But we do NOT have that kind of time. We must look to our current leaders. If Dean truly opposed the war in Iraq, than why did he not play a role in organizing the anti war marches? But imagine what would take place, if Dean was to ACTIVELY coordinate a march on Washington to oppose the War in Iraq. The media could NOT ignore such an assembly, of the masses, and with his voice speaking there, the message of the anti-war protesters would also made headlines. Just as Dean must speak directly to the people, he must USE the masses to get his message out. He has this right.

Eight: Pay attention to strategic position. This is where I reserve my harshest criticism for the DLC. For the past 30 years, they have practically assisted the Republicans with the destruction of their OWN position of strength within the government. Having the WILL to fight is futile of you do not also poses the means. But this vary means, such as the Fairness Doctrine, and what one can only call an unwillingness to fund or take advantage of liberal programming. Even as radio, TV, news paper, and publications are FULL of sponsored right wing freaks such as Limbaugh and Cuolter, the DLC doesn’t even seem to care that their own constituents can only reach their voice mail. We must now work to over come decades of incompetence and shortsighted ness.

Nine: To advocate and patron for scholars who are knowledgeable in the areas of the given issues. It is the nature of politics today, that this is a "field" in and of it self, that makes it extremely unlikely for any person to be thoroughly educated in any field. Though there are exceptions, such as Dean being a licensed physician, the limitations of simply being human will limit any one to only a hand full of fields. But a politician or office holder is going to have to raise and deal with hundreds, if not thousands of separate issues. Most of which will be extremely technical in their nature, as well as being vary complex. Issues such as education, the environment, energy, and health care. Some will also intersect, such as environmental policy and health care.

This makes it impossible for any one person to even be competent on all issues. The solution however, is not to even try, and instead depend upon the finds and arguments of others who ARE leaders in their field. And in many cases, even "lending their voice" (give up the podium) to these scholars in an effort to educated the public, as well as answer highly sophisticated and technical questions from what ever source they may come from. These scholars should also be the pool from which they draw their presidential cabinet, placing their knowledge and experience directly over the subject at hand to carry out public policy. (As oppose to Bush, who seems to only appoint his friends.)
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Excellent Points
You put a lot of effort into this, and it shows. I like all your points, and I believe they can be summarized in this sentence: Come prepared for a fight, because there's going to be one.

I keep hearing apologies for Democrats who don't stand up for core values of the Democratic party. I haven't heard the list of specifics laid out as precisely as you've done here, but we don't have leaders anymore, we have poll watchers and number counters. Some issues are worth risking lukewarm popularity. Your points are so well taken, I am really impressed. Congratulations on your insight.


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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
19. You know -
Some people need to get over it and stop being such tender blossoms. (Not directed at you specifically, but everyone who complains about it).

The bashing you cite is nothing compared to what the candidate, whomever he may be, will go through once he gets the nomination. They're big boys, they can take it.

And Dean's going to win anyway so it's all beside the point. (sorry, had to slip that in)
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sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
21. I agree! Don't slam each other we have common purpose, get rid...
of Junior! I don't enter into the dean/kerry/clark debate. To me it's a moot point I'd vote for howard stern if he got the nomination. Oh yes, I have my secret wish but in the end does matter. Bush must go!
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
22. I think some of it is because
I have noticed a lot of the Dean supporters seem to be a youngish crowd, in some cases real youngish. So you have to expect a measure of this, this is their first campaign and they are excited and take things personally when they shouldn't and so on.

I think when the process is over, it will be all water on the bridge, even if Dean loses, which is very possible, I bet all of DU will rally around the nominee.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
23. I agree.
But tell that to Kerry's campaign as well, dammit.
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