It's time for Dean to state that Kerry is a wishy washy politician!

[unfrigginreal]

All of these love fest posts have been really nice but the truth of the matter is that it's the Kerry folks that want a "one sided peace!" They think that Dean supporters should just keep their mouths shut as long as Kerry is bashing Bush, forget about the fact that he's bashing Dean at the same time. Remarkably, I even ran across one Dean supporter tonight that fell for it...quite surprising.

I hope that the good Doctor comes out blazing against this stand for nothing politician. In the mean time, I'll be posting truths about Kerry that the Kerry supporters hate to see.

Wanna' see why I feel this way? Read this:

The debate within the campaign of Senator John F. Kerry about how to deal with Howard Dean is over.

As he tries to reinvigorate his Democratic candidacy for the presidency, Kerry has made it clear he is not going to wait and see if Dean's surging campaign will fade. Since Sunday, the Massachusetts senator has criticized the former Vermont governor, who leads in the latest polls in New Hampshire, for his opposition to the Iraq war, lack of government experience in foreign policy, economic plans, and membership in the National Rifle Association.

snip

On Monday, Kerry took on Dean over domestic policy, questioning his economic plans. "Howard Dean said he's going to balance the budget in the first three years. Try it, and see what kind of pain is going to happen to the economy as a whole," the senator told reporters as his plane flew to South Carolina for his formal announcement speech.



http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/04/kerry_changes_stance_takes_on_dean/

[phishhead]

1. Man... IMO, the only thing Kerry has going for him is that

he is a Vietnam vet.

Don't get me wrong, I'd vote for Kerry over Bush in a second. But it seems as if Kerry is a tad desperate, and is trying to take out the guy with all the attention right now(Dean). So has Lieberman, who has even less of a chance than Kerry.

Let Kerry try to take down Dean, it'll just end up hurting him in the end. :)

[unfrigginreal]

2. Agree Phish...

and the Kerry folks are pushing hard that he was a Vietnam Vet, as though that's the only thing that makes a difference.

Check out this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=273925

[sandnsea]

6. Yeah, it's just Vietnam

It's not 18 years of fighting for gay rights, womens rights and minority rights. It's not supporting full funding of special education and school programs. It's not thinking I deserve a health care plan as good as the one he has. It's not giving every kid a chance to go to college. It's not any one of numerous environmental votes. It's just Vietnam, that's all anybody ever talks about. Sheesh.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=262154

[sandnsea]

3. Clear back in March

"To this day I don't know what John Kerry's position is," Dean said Thursday in a speech to Iowa activists. "If you agree with the war, then say so. If you don't agree with the war, then say so, but don't try to wobble around in between."

So don't act like Howard Dean hasn't been saying exactly what you suggest he's been saying all along.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/28/sprj.irq.democrats.ap/index.html

[unfrigginreal]

5. Don't post March quotes while looking for a truce today!

You were quite prominent in the "let's all just get along" post accusing Dean supporters of attacking fellow DU'ers. You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

Don't try to call a truce if you plan to make attacks!

[sandnsea]

7. I don't see anybody getting along here

I see a thread that Dean needs to *start* bashing Kerry. Just pointing out that Dean started it a very long time ago.

Like I said in that other post, it's not going to work, it hasn't worked the 100 other times people have posted threads like that.

[Egnever]

54. Funny how that dean quote still aplies today n/t

:bounce:

[IndianaGreen]

4. Joe Lieberman accused Kerry of waffling on the war

I thought it was a hilarious, and a very accurate putdown of Kerry by Lieberman. One of the rare times in which I agreed with Joe.

For all of his many faults, at least Lieberman has been consistent on Iraq. He wanted Saddam gone, with or without WMD. Lieberman said that Kerry had voted for the war and that he was now pretending that he had voted for something else.

[sandnsea]

8. More Dems eating Dems

Great for Bush, that's for sure.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

11. From the John Kerry website: waffle, waffle

I got this story from the St Louis Post-Dispatch from the John Kerry for Prez website:

Kerry Touts War Record as Key to Battle with Bush
But some wonder whether blueblood will go for jugular--
August 17, 2003
St Louis Post-Dispatch
By Deirdre Shesgreen

Des Moines-

The next day at a labor forum, Kerry tried another balancing act as he stressed his support for free trade, while also bowing to labor unions with promises that he would fight for worker and environmental protections.

"Waffle, waffle," grumbled one man in the audience, Dave Nagle, a former congressman and former state party chairman here.

Nowhere have the complaints of equivocation been louder than on Iraq. Kerry voted in favor of giving Bush the authority to strike Iraq, but he has harshly criticized Bush for his failure to win international backing for the military campaign and the post-war reconstruction.

The anti-war Dean has accused Kerry of trying to have it both ways on Iraq, while the staunchly pro-war Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., has accused him of being "ambivalent" and signaling that the Democrat Party is weak on war.

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/clips/news_2003_0818b.html

[sandnsea]

14. bark bark oink oink

What's your point? You're quoting Lieberman for chrissake.

[IndianaGreen]

17. Kerry said today that it was wrong to oppose the Iraq war

I posted Kerry's quote in an article published today (see post 16).

[sandnsea]

19. Yep and so?

Dean did oppose war, or at least that's what he's saying this week. Kerry didn't oppose it as a last resort. That's what he's always said.

[unfrigginreal]

20. You think it was wrong to oppose the war?

This should be an interesting answer...if she doesn't run away.

[sandnsea]

23. This is about Dean and Kerry

Not me.

[unfrigginreal]

38. Wow! You can't answer the question?

I'll try again: Do YOU think it was wrong to oppose the war? Try to answer the question this time!

[sandnsea]

47. I answered it

I'm not running for President. My opinion doesn't count. Dean's and Kerry's do count. That's the way it is.

But since you rephrased it actually, no, I don't think it was wrong for someone to oppose the war. I believe in freedom of speech.

(This particular debate isn't about MY opinion on the war.)

[phishhead]

21. So Kerry opposed it by

help giving BushCo a blank check to go into Iraq?

Sureeeeeeeeee.... you can come back down to Earth now..

[sandnsea]

24. Read the Authorization

and then YOU come back down to Earth.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Read the Iraq body count

Read the Iraq body count that is posted in this website:

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

and then YOU come back down to Earth.

[sandnsea]

33. Blame George Bush

He made the decision to invade instead of continuing with inspections and diplomacy, not John Kerry. Threatening someone and then making the decision to do something about the threat are two entirely different things. If a Judge signs a warrant and the cop does something illegal in the execution of the warrant, is the Judge responsible? No.

[IndianaGreen]

37. Bush had no intentions to allow UN inspectors

Kerry knew that. Kerry lied. Kerry continues to lie. Kerry voted for the war for one of two reasons:

1. He believed Bush.
2. He supports the PNAC agenda.

If Kerry believed Bush, as he said that he took Bush at his word, then he is unfit to be President. Anyone that believes the sociopath in the White House is unfit for public office.

If Kerry supports the PNAC agenda, then he is as much of an imperialist as Paul Wolfowitz, and he should not get our votes.

Kerry turned a deaf ear to millions of people that demonstrated against the war, and he now expects us to listen to him?

[sandnsea]

41. Prove it

Prove Kerry lied. And prove he supports the PNAC agenda.

What YOU think does not have to be what somebody else thinks. It doesn't even have to be what I think. Kerry made a tough decision and I'm satisfied with it. I'm satisfied there never would have been this war with a Democratic President.

If you want to listen to an anti-war candidate, I hope you're listening to Dennis Kucinich. He was the one demonstrating. He actually put up a vote and put his career on the line. He's been consistent on his opinion. I respect that. I respect Kerry. Dean the waffler, not really.

[IndianaGreen]

42. Kerry made an easy decision

Kerry was following the advice of the DLC. Al From and his boys wanted the Democrats to appear strong on defense and vote for the war. Their rationale was that the war would be over soon, and that the Iraqis would welcome US troops with singing and dancing (sounds familiar?). The DLC told the Democrats in Congress that the war would be long over by 2004, and that it was the economy that would be the only issue.

Al From was wrong. The DLC was wrong. Kerry was wrong.

Had Kerry voted against the war in Iraq, we wouldn't be having this discussion today.

[sandnsea]

44. No you said PNAC

You stuck PNAC on John Kerry. You can't just bait and switch with some other label to stick on him.

Kerry voted to threaten Saddam Hussein with war. Kerry supporters accept his sincerity in that vote. I equally accept Kucinich and his supporters who are consistently anti-war. When Dean makes a final decision on his views and explains what he meant when he said there was no reason for a war and then Saddam shouldn't have nuclear weapons and then inspectors should be given 60 days and then a war should be launched, but then says there should be no war and he is anti-war; when he explains all of that, then I'll give Dean a listen.

[phishhead]

30. Hey, I'm not the one trying to say that someone who

voted for the war opposed it all along.

Black is white, white is black. Right?

[sandnsea]

36. last resort

l-a-s-t r-e-s-o-r-t

Get it?

[stickdog]

48. Yes.

Black is white and white is black only as a l-a-s-t r-e-s-o-r-t.

[sandnsea]

51. black is black

and white is white as a last resort.

black is white and white is black when someone says they're against the war but they want to launch a war after 30 or 60 days of inspections but no, they were against the war.

[bitchkitty]

10. Oh, Lord -

This is ridiculous. I would just once like for people (both Dean and Kerry supporters) to stop crying about their candidate being attacked. There are always 10 threads on this crap, and it's boring.

If your candidate cannot take the heat, he should not be in the kitchen. Sheesh. Actually, the candidates are doing just fine. It's the whiners that get to me.

[phishhead]

13. You must be getting at yourself... especially since

your whining too.

I would call you a hypocrite, since you are whining about all the whining. But, in your message: "This is ridiculous. I would just once like for people (both Dean and Kerry supporters) to stop crying about their candidate being attacked" I must say that I agree. But the fact of the matter is, it won't be stopping anytime soon. If anything, expect it to get worse.

So toughen up.

[bitchkitty]

55. Whining where?

I'm not whining, I'm expressing exasperation. It's such a waste of time.

But since you agree with me, aren't you whining? ;)

[IndianaGreen]

16. Kerry said today that it was wrong to oppose the war in Iraq

As his campaign plane flew from Iowa to New Hampshire yesterday morning, Kerry told reporters, "Howard Dean's opposition to the war was wrong." Kerry argued that Saddam Hussein was a dangerous leader who needed to be confronted, just with more diplomacy than the Bush administration tried.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/04/kerry_changes_stance_takes_on_dean/

This is war, about a war that is still ongoing and that has resulted in the deaths and maiming of untold numbers of civilians that had nothing to do with 9/11.

Kerry has joined Lieberman at the hip!

[Pastiche423]

12. Ah, but there is an up side

to when Dean gets bashed. His campaign contributions soar! The number of meet ups soar! The number of Dean supporters soar!

Thanks for your contribution to Dean's campaign, Kerry!

[stickdog]

15. Let's see if I've got this right.

Dean's bad because:

1) Dean's views on the Iraq War aren't close to Bush's as Kerry's

2) Dean's views on "raising taxes" aren't as close to Bush's as Kerry's

3) Dean's views on balancing the budget aren't as close to Bush's as Kerry's

and

4) Dean's a vicious liar with no integrity because he once called Kerry "Bush-lite."

Does that about sum it up, folks?

[IndianaGreen]

18. That's about it!

That's a nice summary of the issues, stickdog.

[sandnsea]

22. Not really

Dean's views on Iraq are the same as Kerry's, when you actually look at his words.

Dean's views on "raising taxes" are the same as Kerry's; well, except Dean won't tell exactly which ones he plans to raise; when you actually look at his words.

Dean's views on balancing the budget aren't close to anybody's because it's impossible to do in 3 years.

Dean's not a viscious liar, but he is the waffler, and he is the one that started the bashing campaign because he wasn't getting any attention.

And THAT about sums it up.

[unfrigginreal]

25. How's life on fantasy island?

I wish that we Dean supporters could take the same liberties that you Kerry supporters do.

[sandnsea]

32. It's the truth

Sorry, don't know what else to tell you. It's the truth.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

39. It's true

Here's just one.

http://www.txtriangle.com/archive/1049/coverstory.htm

TT: You’d reverse Bush’s tax cut, I gather…

Dean: Not all of it, almost all of it…

[stickdog]

45. From the article:

TT: You’d reverse Bush’s tax cut, I gather...

Dean: Not all of it, almost all of it...

TT: And would you cut spending as well?

Dean: If necessary. But I don’t think it’s necessary. I actually think that to balance the budget you have to reverse Bush’s tax cut and then you’d have enough left over for health care, replacing social security, replacing the highway money that the President took to balance the budget, and starting to pay down the deficit.


Note that Dean was about to explain himself before the interviewer cut him off.

Now I see the strategy. Dean hasn't fully refined his positions on every issue yet. As he does, every time he deviates one iota from more general statements that he's already said, Kerry will blast Dean for "not being the straight shooter he claims to be."

Rovianly brilliant strategy. It just might work.

[sandnsea]

53. Oh, his positions aren't refined

I see, he's evolving.

The first quote was from a year ago. Here's what he said a month ago. Sounds the same to me. He may cut all the Bush tax cuts, he may not. These are his words. Has absolutely nothing to do with Karl Rove and I have no idea what Kerry's campaign strategy is. I'm not on his campaign team.

We would love to have middle-class tax cuts, but they have to be paid for in some way," Dean said. "We're going to have a big economic speech in the middle of September. Maybe there will be some tax reductions, but they will have to be paid for in some way.''

http://www.nhprimary.com/stories/08-2003/080303-deancritical.htm

I'm just saying no candidate has a perfect record on anything. It's time to look at these candidates with blinders off and really get into the meat of it and see who they really are. I have a feeling we might all flee to John Edwards, or if we followed our honest instincts, to Dennis Kucinich.

[stickdog]

56. Who has on blinders? I'm just asking for a fair fight among friends.

When it comes to Bush, I'll be happy to put on the brass knuckles myself.

[IndianaGreen]

26. What a beautiful Rovian spin!

Senator Waffles is not a waffler, but his opponent is.

Explain this, on his announcement speech Kerry said that he voted for the Iraq war resolution in order to pressure Saddam to allow for WMD inspections.

Today Kerry threw away whatever pretense he had about inpectors, and attacked those that opposed the Iraq war, which by implication means that he supported the war in Iraq.

Kerry's vote made him an accomplice in Bush's criminal war in Iraq. People have died, and will die, for nothing! Thank you Mr. Kerry, I hope that you are proud about your small contribution to this carnage.

[unfrigginreal]

28. Great points IG...I'm shocked that we are in agreement...

but I'm goddamned glad to see it. Keep up the good fight bro'!

[Sean Reynolds]

49. That's sister! ;-)

And I agree with IG on this one.

EVEN my grandma knew Bush was going to bypass the UN and invade Iraq without their support. If Kerry had ANY doubt, he shouldn't have voted for the war in the first place. Because of HIS vote, there are 3,000+ dead Iraqis! 250+ DEAD Americans. That is not leadership, that is collapsing to the pressure of war.

With Dean I have the sense he WONT take our nation to war unless the needs are dire. With Kerry he's PROVED that he'd take this country to war, even with LITTLE to NO evidence of a threat. That scares me.

[unfrigginreal]

52. Damn! Sorry IG...I should have known...

your post was too smart for a guy to have made it.

[stickdog]

27. Dean says the war was a mistake. I'm not sure what Kerry says about that

because I can't understand him with all those waffles in his mouth.

Dean says he'll get rid of all of Bush's budget busting tax cuts and return to us to Clintonian-level sanity. Nothing could be clearer.

If Dean can't balance the budget in three years, it will be because Kerry and crew (read: wimpy Dems) let Chimpy's cronies run off with the US Treasury on their watch.

[sandnsea]

35. Dean's got the waffles, hell he's got the Vermont syrup too

Read my other posts. Dean has changed his words on the Bush tax cuts several times over the last year. I don't know what he's going to do on them. Dean has said war should be considered in 30 or 60 days if Saddam didn't disarm, then he tries to play the anti-war guy. He's the waffler and we would be very disappointed with him as a President. He won't be as bad as Bush, that's for sure. But he isn't going to be what you think he's going to be either.

[phishhead]

40. Man, I'm glad I finally met someone who can see into the future!!

I mean, since you already know that Dean's presidency would be terrible, and that we would be utterly disappointed by him, can you tell me if the Tigers will ever win another World Series? Please?

You're posts are getting even more tedious, sandnsea. May I suggest calling it a night(or morning)?

[sandnsea]

43. Sure

The Tigers? Every team is bound to win sooner or later, provided George Bush doesn't blow up the world first. George Bush. He's the bad guy.

And it is my opinion that Dean would not be the President alot of people think he would be. I think I still have a right to an opinion.

Nitey nite!

[phishhead]

46. I have no problem with your opinions.

But you stated your opinions as fact..

And when you try to state them as the truth, or as facts, it makes you look like a complete goof(best word I could think of). Thats all I'm pointing out, sandnsea. :

But in any case, sweet dreams. :)

[sandnsea]

50. This is an opinion board

That's the point. Almost everything anybody says is opinion. The only time there is a fact posted here is when somebody quotes something and links to it.

[dfong63]

31. dean doesn't have to bash kerry directly

Dean is the front-runner and can afford to take the high road. all Dean has to do is make a one- or two-sentence explanation of why the Bush-Kerry war was wrong, and how no economic recovery is going to happen as long as the US keeps wasting billions on such wars. or he can make some other argument of his choosing that briefly answers Kerry's thrust, while simultaneously reminding everyone of Kerry's waffling.

[Kahuna]

57. Boy oh Boy! I don't believe that you're blasting Kerry like this...

Aren't you the same person who gets highly upset with me when I state a simple dislike for Dean? I don't bash him. I just say that I don't believe that he can win the general election and you act as if I killed the man. You insult me and say very harsh and nasty things about me. You've even called me out like a gunslinger. Now look at you! I'm asking you to practice what you preach.

[blm]

58. Gee, not like Dean didn't throw the first twenty punches.

Not like Dean didn't start out lying to audiences that the others voted for Bush's tax cut for the wealthiest when they did NOT.

Not like Dean wasn't for the Biden-Lugar version of the Iraq resolution which would have still authorized war.