You know what ? I DID want Kerry, but now after reading all

[bearfan454]

the things he has said, I have to go with Dean. I really wanted Kerry but he seems more and more towards the center. Repuke lite got us into this shit. Dean is way more to the left than Kerry is. That is for me. I want a candidate that will say BUSH IS WRONG ! Working people matter more than millionaires to me and probably a lot of people on this board. Howard Dean is for me. I have made up my mind.
.................bearfan454

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joeybee12]

2. Dean APPEALS to the left

I feel the same way. I really wanted to like Kerry, but the more he tries to explain his Iraq vote, the less I like him. Come out and say it was a mistake! The more he explains, the more it just seems like he voted for it because he weighed the political benefits/disdavatnges, and voted yes, not that it was the right thing to do.

We rally need someone who will take on Dumbo, Dean is the only one who seems believable.

Where do I sign up? I've been wavering, but now there's no doubt in my mind. I certainly will support Kerry if he gets the nomination, but I believe the Dems best chance is Dean.

And as for you Clark fans, why did it take so long for him to reveal he's a Dem? I liked him, but this leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Eloriel]

37. Here's where you can sign up --

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/

Sign up for MeetUps, the general mailing list, and DeanLink. Read the Comments afte the various blog entries.

Welcome aboard!

Eloriel

[MissMillie]

53. I went to a meet-up last night

And was very impressed w/ the grassroots approach these people are taking. I'm on board!

[SavageWombat]

3. Resource?

Isn't there some website somewhere that rates all the politicians on various issues, to determine how "liberal" they are? That might dispel some of this "Dean = leftist" myth, if only on DU.

[onecitizen]

17. You might be referring to.............

selectsmart.com

I don't know who runs the site or if it tells you who's left of who, but it does outline their policies each of them take.

[bearfartinthewoods]

7. i'd like to hear your reasoning as well...n/t

[bearfan454]

11. He publicly says that Bush is wrong on a lot of things.

Kerry sort of just makes an inference to it.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

25. Probably

but Kerry is the one who said we need "regime change" at home. I guess some people think that's "subtle"

[Eloriel]

42. I saw it. Did you see where Dean used that word a month or more

ago?

Dean has been so valuable to Kerry's campaign -- ideas, policies, soundbytes, etc. -- he ought to start paying them a consultancy fee.

Eloriel

[blm]

45. Except Kerry was using it in the late winter

and even pointed to Bush's policies as "Orwellian."

[TLM]

46. Hell i heard Dean use that line back in june

when he came to CA.

And Kerry is already waffeling on his statement...

”It is possible that the word ‘regime change’ is too harsh. Perhaps it is.” Kerry

[TLM]

44. LOL! Yeah Kerry sure showed him...

By voting for his war, voting for his patriot act, voting for no child left behind, sitting out the PBA vote, voting for the 350 billion tax cut amendment...


"I support the president. The Congress supports the president." -John Kerry

[blm]

48. Dean supports Bush when he shouldn't, but

that doesn't bother you. Yucca Mt. and Sierra Blanca showed what Dean is really like. Dean also said he'd have voted for the Biden-Lugar version of the Iraq resolution authorizing military force, so he was NOT really against the war.

Dean brought up the curtailing of civil liberties himself on SEPT. 14, 2001. He said in July, 2002 on MTP, that he "tended to agree with the president" on the curtailing of some liberties. Of course, that was when he was running AS a centrist, before the antiwar crowds grew, and before he coopted Nader's rhetoric from 2000. Ted Rall noticed it.

[TLM]

77. BLM why do you continue to lie about these quotes...

when you know I am going to call you on it?

"Dean supports Bush when he shouldn't, but that doesn't bother you. Yucca Mt. and Sierra Blanca showed what Dean is really like."

First lie... Sierra Blanca was passed under Clinton, not Bush.

Second lie... Dean had no say over the federal mandate to secure radioactive waste, nor over the federal sites that were picked.


"Dean also said he'd have voted for the Biden-Lugar version of the Iraq resolution authorizing military force, so he was NOT really against the war."

Thrid lie... Dean was against the war, as the provisions set forth in BL to authorize force were not met.

Fourth lie... Dean was against the war because what Dean supported was disarming Iraq as set forth in the BL authorization, not invading and taking over the country.


"Dean brought up the curtailing of civil liberties himself on SEPT. 14, 2001. He said in July, 2002 on MTP, that he "tended to agree with the president" on the curtailing of some liberties. "

Sixth lie... again you have to edit a quote and lie about what was said.

Here is the WHOLE question and the WHOLE answer, not just half a sentance edited to support your lie.


MR. RUSSERT: You heard Mr. Armey’s objection to the president’s TIPS Program, where cable installers, utility workers would observe what’s going on and report anything suspicious to the police. Do you support the president?

GOV. DEAN: I tend to support the president, although I have some reservations about this one as well. All I’ve seen is what’s been on television, and I have something in me that is bothered by the notion that Americans are going to be spying on each other. So if the president is simply asking people to be alert, I think that’s fine. If the president really is encouraging Americans to spy on each other, I have a problem with that.


So again you cut out the part of the statement that showed he was saying exactly the opposite of what you claim, and was in fact taking issue with Bush's TIPS program.

As for the some civil liberties Dean spoke of curtailing... again your spin is clearly dishonest.



MR. RUSSERT: You did say after the 11th that the United States may be prepared to have to sacrifice some personal liberties and civil liberties in order to fight the war on terrorism.

GOV. DEAN: We already are. I think when I got on the airplane to come down here, it took me about 25 minutes longer than it would have a year ago. And those are the kinds of liberties that we are going to be sacrificing and there may be some other ones.

[blm]

87. HAHAH...Get off it.

Sierra Blanca was a deal made by 3 state GOVERNORS, two of whom were named BUSH and DEAN.

Bush's Yucca Mt. policy WAS supported by Dean.

Dean NEVER ANSWERS RUSSERT'S QUESTION directly. WHY? Because he, himself brought up the curtailing of civil l iberties back on SEPT. 14, 2001. Of course, duped followers call him a straight-talker. Read his answer, he goes both ways, but add it to his own demagoguery of Sept.14 and his disregard for legal "technicalities" on judicial preferences, and you have a guy who would have wholeheatedly signed the Patriot Act.

YOU are the one spinning the centrist frog into a progressive prince.

[blm]

26. Kerry said Bush was financing his campaign with kickbacks

from corporations who he gave huge taxcuts.

He called for a full investigation into WMD evidence and the decision to go to Iraq last June.

He said if Bush lied, then he lied to him personally, as well.

[Andy_Stephenson]

54. Welll Booo F&^%ing hooo

if he doesn't know by now Bush is capable of lies, then he needs to stay in the Senate.

[blm]

61. Don't mistake supporting the office of the president

with Bush. There are standards that need to be met to preserve the PROCESS OF GOVERNMENT, Gbnc. Clinton warned the Dems in Congress that much was done by the GOP to destroy that process while he was president, and it was imperative for the continuity of government not to make that same destructive mistake.

[Dhalgren]

70. But didn't Kerry vote for the tax cut?

I may be mistaken, but I think that he did. How can he now claim Bush is using the tax cut in a "kickback" scheme, if Kerry himself voted for it?

[blm]

89. He didn't. Dean misspoke

when he said they all voted for Bush's taxcuts for the wealthiest. NONE of the candidates did. 12 Dems did and Dean was counting on the perception that the Dems caved to attach it to his Dem opponents.

[AP]

36. You may think you like this, but...

You have to ask whethter you think it's smart.

All the candidates attack the bush principles. Dean, however, is the only candidate who delivers entire speeches which are a series of direct criticisms of George W. Bush. Other candidates define their principles and then contrast them to republican/bush principles. They tell you what they're all about. Dean defines himself by telling you what Bush is.

There are problems with this. LBJ said you can't win a campaign by telling people what you're against. You have to tell them what you're for. Think of it this way: I believe that, if Bush dropped out of the race, many people whould be confused about who and what dean is. If the Republicans turned around and ran Frist or Ridge, nobody would understand why it's better to vote for Dean. They'd just think that Dean got what he wanted -- Bush gone -- and since that's all he wanted, why vote for him, let's vote for the candidate who had some ideas about the future.

[Eloriel]

49. Spoken by a man who hasn't HEARD any of Dean's speeches

or read them either.

Or else he's just parroting some talking points from somewhere else.

Nothing to do with reality, at all.

Eloriel

[shance]

55. Dean is the only one that has concrete solutions other than Kucinich

I like Edwards. Hes smart, hes compassionate and from what I can see, hes seems to be a pretty good statesman so far. But our senators running for president have allowed some fundamentally dire issues go straight to the Republicans. They keep drawing the line and then allowing Republicans to step over that line. Thats not leadership.

And AP, you criticize Dean for taking on Bush saying he delivers entire speeches on attacking Bush. I keep up with Dean pretty closely and I would really like to see a copy of that script. I have never heard him speak more that a PARAGRAPH or two on Bush. Hes not a candidate that dwells. He does focus on the issues that really pertain to Americans and not just issues that are easy to talk about, and most importantly, he delivers a message that inspires and is hopeful, and delivers ideas that no other candidate have truly been able to accomplish for whatever reason(s).


Before criticizing Dean, it might be helpful to answer what does Edwards stand for? Where has Edwards been on truly American issues like the FCC merger? Dean was on it in fact he was in front of all the other candidates. Kerry then attempted to follow suit. I never heard anything about Edwards taking some initiative.

What has Edwards been doing regarding the dissolution of our Civil Liberties and or John Aschroft, who is blatantly running roughshod over our Constitution? Dean is on this as well, and as a result of his taking on the issues he educates Americans as well and invites them to get involved in what is OUR OWN government and our responsibility.

We of course could go to the War issue, where Dean has resonated with America and the other candidates have left us tremendously disappointed and disillusioned with their safe, easy position. No one ever wins playing it safe. Thats why ultimately Edwards wont win by not truly taking on the Bush Administration, or any other issue that will set him apart. I wish someone would talk about alternative fuels and the possibilities for cleaner energy. If someone would really jump on 'cleaner capitalism', id be there to listen.

In short, and perhaps you didnt ask, but I dont see real courage and conviction in Edwards to take on the tough issues and any courage to take on big bidness and corporate interests. Perhaps Edwards has approached this issue and if so then correct me.

It seems to be Edwards is not getting as far with Americans because hes too afraid to get out of the box and he seems to lack the passion and commitment it takes to beat this Administration.

Thats my opinion, but apparently there are obviously many others like me who support Howard Dean and there is good reason for it.

We can see how much Dean does care. We just get it with him. We see how much he works to get out there and actually reach Americans, while the others are in Washington or perhaps avoiding pivotal votes when they SHOULD be in Washington. Frankly I have never understood the logic of allowing Senators to run for president, when they should be doing their job in DC. Makes no sense to me.

Sometimes I feel as though Kerry, Edwards, Lieberman and Gephardt seem to be running for Student Council in stead of for president. I cant seem to take them seriously - perhaps because I dont think they take the choices they make regarding OUR LIVES AS AMERICANS AS SERIOUS ENOUGH. If they did, they wouldnt be making such baffling voting choices.

I take Dean seriously and I trust Dean. I know he takes the condition of our country seriously because I have seen it through his tremendous efforts to reach Americans across the continent and he has done just that.

The Senators to me have lost touch with what its like to be a normal American. In truth, they are missing out too. They are missing out on reality, because what they live in DC is not really 'real'. I think that is also one of the reasons they arent resonating and seem so stale and in some ways fake. They seem out of reach and out of touch. They are isolated from Americans and what we are experiencing. They could stand to extract themselves from Washington for a while.

In fact I am now a believer in term limits for both Senators and Representatives. Thats how our government was set up originally. Not as a full-time occupation, but as a service paid back to the country, kind of like jury duty. Lets get back to what public service was originally designed to do and remove the corporate connection and the incestuous lobbying.

[tpub]

63. publicly calling out Bush

does not make one "further to the left."

Kerry is further to the left. Check out his voting record. Check out his positions.

[uptohere]

30. can't agree that Mr Kerry is more "right" than Dr Dean

I'd have to say you've got it backwards. The one obvious issue is gun control. There are many others.

In my mind, its immaterial what one has to say about the opposition that sets you left or right, its where you stand on the issues. I don't believe that this is a new interpretation.

[Quahog]

31. For me, it's not a left-right issue

Yeah, you could probably find some credible site somewhere that would rank the candidates based on voting record and/or stated positions, placing them on some sort of hypothetical left-right ideological continuum. Not sure what good that would do anyone, really. Kucinich is to my right. I like Dean.

For me, it's more of a "spot the politician" thing. Now, I'm not suggesting that Dean is any LESS of a manipulating, opportunistic political slime-weasel than Kerry, or than anyone else who chooses politics as a profession. But he APPEARS to be less of a political operator than Kerry. Kerry has, after all his years in Washington, become an expert at that kind of nebulous beltway-speak that just gives me the creeps.

You ask Kerry, "Does Bush suck eggs?" Kerry responds, "What the American people want is a return to those days of the trustworthy forefathers of the long traditions of American democracy in the hands of the people who are tired of the same old government blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....." Same as any guy who's been in DC as long as he has. It's not even his fault, it's what's required in that environment. Never say anything that could possibly box you into a position where you would have to act decisively and conclusively and with conviction. That's not the Washington way.

You ask Dean, "Does Bush suck eggs?" And Dean will say, "Yeah, Bush sucks eggs." It's refreshing. He often goes back and apologizes and rephrases things, but I like the fact that he shoots from the hip. I ALWAYS wonder about the secret agenda of ANY politician, but I have fewer of these worries with Dean. He seems pretty up-front about what he believes, and only really stumbles when he tries to form an opinion without enough information. He needs to learn to say "I don't know" with more confidence.

[bearfan454]

32. Good point Quahog

.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. You Are Right

John Kerry has a higher lifetime ADA score than Ted Kennedy

www.adaction.org

[seaglass]

4. Do you believe that a political candidate may choose

to create an impression of being something other than what he/she is in order to appeal to a wider electorate?

Ralph Nader met with Kerry and said that he is more progressive than he is showing publicly. Though I didn't vote for Nader, I do believe that he knows the difference between a centrist and a progressive.

I bet a lot of people thought Bush was a compassionate conservative.

Just some food for thought.

[blm]

5. HUH? That doesn't match the facts.

Kerry is nowhere NEAR the center. He is the candidate with the record closest to Wellstone.

Dean is the guy who straddled the center during his entire career, and only recently decided to use populist rhetoric. Hell, if DU had been paying attention to him over the last 10 years, they would have lumped Dean in with Zell Miller. Dean's perfect if a compromising centrist is what you want, but, this lefty prefers a REAL liberal.

[bearfan454]

15. I know he is not a Lieberman or a Zell MIller, but

he just seems not down to earth with the working people. I want more left than Kerry.

[JI7]

20. how about kucinich and sharpton ?

? they are more left than kerry. dean is not more left than kerry.

[bearfartinthewoods]

23. more left??? have you read this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=275038

you're moving to the right and you don't even realize it.

[blm]

29. If you want more left than Kerry, that means Kucinich

and that is why they are the two I am supporting. DK gets to Kerry's left on some issues and Kerry gets to DK's left on some issues, but they are definitely both WAY left of Dean.

[seventhson]

75. Got evidence?

nt

[blm]

90. get serious.

Dean is a state's rights guy, a Zell Miller type who mocks liberals like Marian Wright Edelman. Go read his REAL record.

Go check out the ratings for Kucinich and Kerry. The ACU ratings has Kerry closest to Wellstone.

[seventhson]

96. get me serious links

don't just make things up without a source, okay?

Your charges must have a source.

Let's see it.

I am serious

[blm]

97. Howard Dean = Zell Miller

American Conservative Union Ranking of Dem Canidates
Of course, lower is better. Congressional rankings are 2002, 2001 and lifetime. Numbers indicate the percentage of the time that the canidate voted "conservative". For comparison, Wellstone's record was 3%.

Dennis Kucinich 2002-0%, 2001-20%, Lifetime-13%

John Kerry 2002-20%, 2001-4%, Lifetime-6%

John Edwards 2002-30%, 2001-16%, Lifetime-15%

Dick Gephardt 2002-8%, 2001-13%, Lifetime-12%

Joe Lieberman 2002-20%, 2001-28%, Lifetime-20%

Bob Graham 2002-20%, 2001-16%, Lifetime-18%


http://www.conservative.org/default.asp

Here's Dean's LEFTISM for you, seventhson:

>>>>>>>>>
Dean kept his distance from his party's liberals during his governorship.
''He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements,'' said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats' liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.
. . .
Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.
. . .
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/23996
MONTPELIER - A leading environmentalist was asked to leave Gov. Howard Dean's council of environmental advisers after she criticized the governor's short-lived proposal for a coal-fired power plant in Vermont.
Elizabeth Courtney, executive director of the Vermont Natural Resources Council, was one of 20 members of the governor's environmental council, which meets about once every three months with the governor.
But after Courtney wrote a newspaper opinion piece faulting Dean for his brief advocacy of a coal plant, she learned she was no longer welcome on the council. David Rocchio, the governor's legal counsel, wrote her late last month to say she will be replaced on the council by VNRC's board chairman. The move came after she had written the governor on energy issues and showed his staff her draft newspaper piece, Courtney said.
"From the tone of your letter (to the governor), the content of your (newspaper) essay, and your rejection of the concerns we have raised with you in conversation, it appears that you do not seek a dialogue," Rocchio wrote to Courtney and to VNRC's board. "The governor sees little point in continuing to try to discuss these issues with you."
Meanwhile, another prominent environmentalist - Mark Sinclair, Vermont director of the Conservation Law Foundation - was also asked to step down from the council. Sinclair said it was not yet clear whether he was being removed to make way for another environmentalist, as he was told, or because he had criticized Dean's environmental policies.
>>>>>>>
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html
Dean raises money from energy sources
February 27, 2002
By David Gram
ASSOCIATED PRESS
MONTPELIER — When Gov. Howard Dean wanted to raise money for a possible presidential bid, he followed the example of a former governor of Texas and called on his friends in the energy industry.
>>>>>>>
“Administration actions going back some years betray an inappropriate coziness with the utilities,” said Paul Burns, executive director of the Vermont Public Service Research Group. “I am not prepared to say it’s a result of contributions given. But these contributions present the appearance of impropriety or appearance of influence that it probably would have been better to avoid.”
Dean’s close relationship with utility representatives dates back to the day he became governor in 1991. A lobbyist for Green Mountain Power and a GMP employee were among the first people Dean called in to help his transition.
A list of the Governor’s Council of Economic Advisers includes Green Mountain Power Corp.’s chairman, two company board members and a vice president, all of whom made donations to the Fund For A Healthy America. It also includes two longtime utility lobbyists.
Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. Among other major decisions:
— After years of pushing for the companies to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contract with Hydro-Quebec, Dean’s Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of what those excess costs are expected to be in the coming years. The extra costs will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
>>>>>>>
March 2002
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/2794665.htm
Dean, a medical doctor, describes himself as "a bit unusual" for a Democrat. For one thing, "I'm very conservative about money," he said. Also, he pointed out, he has been endorsed by the National Rifle Association.
"I have trouble with the liberal wing of my own party," Dean said.
Other things working in his favor, he added, are: "I'm not from Washington. I'm very direct with people. I say what I think. People always know where I stand. ‘.‘.‘. I think people are ready for that."
http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/012303dean_2002.shtml
I can't wait for those four guys from Congress to come up here and explain to us why they wanted to raise your property taxes after they supported a tax cut for the wealthiest people in America," he said.
Dean also criticized his opponents for voting to give Bush a "blank check" on military intervention in Iraq - and, now, changing their tune on the issue.
"Today, they're running around telling you folks they're all anti-war," he said. (Later, he acknowledged that Lieberman's vote was consistent with the senator's comparatively "hawkish" position on Iraq.) "We're never going to elect a president that does those things. If I voted for the Iraq resolution, I'd be standing in favor, supporting it right now in front of you."
Dean said he would have voted instead for the Biden-Lugar resolution, which he said supported disarming Saddam using multilateral action, and which did not call for a "regime change."
>>>>>>
Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. ''The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative,'' Rivers said, although she said she still may support Dean for president.
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/139/region/Those_who_know_Dean_says_he_s_:.shtml

Dean is proud to be a centrist....so be proud WITH him and vote for him if that is what you prefer.

[intheozone]

6. Well done

you choose wisely and your choice is well-grounded!

[blm]

8. Then you won't mind pointing out those grounds

that prove that Kerry is a centrist and Dean is way to his left?

[Oreegone]

9. But Dean can actually beat Bush

Moderate Republicans are even starting to show up at his meetings.

[sangh0]

13. That makes sense

After all. Dean's position aren't all that different than a moderate Repuke's.

[oasis]

57. Excellent point.

:thumbsup:

[GalleryGod]

82. "And We're gonnna Kick Nixon's Ass!"

The Young & the Restless
May,1972.:shrug:

[quinnox]

10. I can understand the confusion

Dean is running on a leftist appeal, but if you examine his record and Kerry's record I think you will find Kerry (on paper) is much more liberal.

If you want a true liberal, Kerry is one.

But if you use the Iraq war vote as a litmus-test, Kerry is definitely not your guy.

[bearfartinthewoods]

19. IMHO there is nothing more destructive than a one issue voter

:thumbsdown:

[polpilot]

12. Kerry's endorsement of Bush last Sunday (Bush) ' a good man trying to

do good things' removes Kerry from the Bush-lite league. Not it's Bush-like or 'likes Bush.' Your choice.

Dean '04...

[Mairead]

14. I'm not supporting Kerry, but, as Hope says

he's much more liberal than Dean. All you've to do is look at their respective records.

What's going on right now, I think, is that Kerry is woffling because he's trying to be more conservative than he really is -- he's following the DLC playbook and trying for that phantasmagorical 'swing voter'. I think that's a dumb thing for him to do, because he can't do it with conviction.

Dean, on the other hand, is trying to do the opposite--he's a 'centrist' (read: soft Republican) who's trying to capture the disaffected left. That he seems to be doing it is a tribute, if that's the word I want, to how thoroughly the right wing has deformed the nation. People 35 and under have never really known anything except conservative governments, so to them a soft Republican does seem like a real change. They don't know any better!

In moments of candor--though you'll never hear him say this from the stage--Dean freely admits he's not a liberal. Unless that fits for you, embracing Dean will be a mistake.

[GreenArrow]

27. right on!

Completely agree.

[deutsey]

16. I don't see Kerry at the center

I just see him as trying the tired, "old school" ways of campaigning that just aren't energizing people anymore. Just my opinion. I like most of Kerry's views, otherwise.

[joeybee12]

18. Kerry seems to be the DLC's Poster Boy these days

I think the DLC realizes Holy Joe will never win, and they're putting their support behind Kerry. The problem is that means Kerry is starting to listen to them, and those numb-nuts are sure to help him lose, and also make him look like he doesn't stand for anything.

[sangh0]

21. "Seems to be"????

A sure sign of misinformation. Kerry "seems to be" in with the DLC, and so (of course) Kerry is now "listening to them".

And all of this is based on, not fact, but what "seems to be"

[blm]

24. Really? That's why he wants to close corporate tax loopholes?

Sign the Kyoto Accord? Fully fund alternative fuel research? That sounds like a corporatist to you?

Dean supported Bush on Yucca Mt. and Sierra Blanca for his Vermont energy buddies.

[TLM]

40. BLM... you Dean bashers just can;t stand someone seeing through Kerry

Kerry is always trying to play both side of the issue. From Vietnam to Iraq, his whole history is say one thing and do another, then double back again.


He supported Bush on the war when he thought it would help him, and when he saw it was hurting him, suddenly he changed his tune.

You can't defend Kerry, so you have to attack Dean on Yucca Mt. and Sierra Blanca, when in both cases Dean had no say over the federal mandate to secure the radioactive waste, nor the sites that were selected.

Face it, no matter how much you accuse people of being too stupid to get how great Kerry is, people see through his wishy washy political posturing.

[blm]

41. That's YOUR agenda talking, not the truth.

You can suit yourself, and we'll see. I am happy that there is a candidate that you compromising centrists can call your own. I'm glad he's smart enough to use populist rhetoric to dupe the rest.

[polpilot]

52. Dupes for Dean!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm starting a web site.

Dupes for Dean '04....

[TLM]

78. as I said, "you accuse people of being too stupid to get how great Kerry "

and here you do it again...

"I'm glad he's smart enough to use populist rhetoric to dupe the rest."


If you don't see how great Kerry is, you must be stupid and you must be being duped.

And I note you could not refute any of the fact I brought up about your attacks on Dean over the federal sites for radio active waste storage... but I bet that won't stop you from repeating the lies later as if they had not already been refuted.

[blm]

91. Because you are still wrong.

You never manage to get the whole story right and you refute the wrong points.

Duh.

[indigo32]

28. I agree Deutsey

I know how Howard Dean governed, I know Kerry is Liberal compared to him. However we've got to win... and frankly Howard Dean has some good ideas, has shown some real guts in certain areas and listens to us. I'd be proud to have him as President. I'll vote for Kerry if he gets the nomination... but I'll be very worried about the outcome as I do it.

[bearfan454]

33. I'm voting for whoever is the Dem candidate

But I would like to see someone point out AWOL, corporate crook, only for the rich, Arbusto oil with Salem Bin Laden, 911, and a lot of other things in the media. I feel Dean will do that more than Kerry.

[sendero]

39. I know it isn't going to go over well in this crowd...

... but a *real* Capital L Liberal is not going to win the presidency in the foreseeable future.

The VRWC has done a stellar job of making "liberal" a dirty word. It will take a lot of rehabilitation with the "swing" voters IMHO. Using "progressive" helps, but you know that when push comes to shove, the "liberal" media is going to deride anyone who is truly liberal, and try to make those who are barely (Dean for example) liberal into flaming leftists.

All IMHO :)

[salin]

51. at the moment this is how I see it as well.

Kerry is liberal. But sometimes votes in politically expedient ways (as do most politicians - its called compromise and its the downside of the job). His problem does seem to be his campaign strategy/approach. I think that the rules of campaigns have changed - especially in light of the unending moneystream going to teambush. In this environment - old style campaigns will never be able to compete. Kerry's best chance will be to recognize the changed reality and comeup with a strategy that is not 'old school' (strategically pick a few early and likely win states, invest tons of money and build infrastructure, then selectively continue in the same fashion in carefully selected early primary states, hope that early momentum brings more money and allows more state orgs to be put in place). The democratic candidate who has the best chance to win - will devise a completely different type (and lower cost) campaign. This campaign will have to find a way to put teamRoveBush on eggshells - in the sense of being periodically thrown a curve that is unanticipated - and throwing enough that they begin to behave like children of irratic parents who walk on eggshells as they wait for the next, unanticipated chaotic episode. This through media amplification was done to Gore - and left Gore's campaign to have to keep responding rather than being as proactive as they could be. But no democratic candidate will have the media complicitness that teamRovebush had. Thus a new method for effectively delivering unanticipated curves will have to be developed.

Kerry has the brain power and the money to develop an alternative strategy. They have the capacity, but haven't yet taken the opportunity. So far, the only campaign that has - is Dean's. It is way too early to say that where things are today is where they will be midprimaries. But Kerry's team better get cracking. More liberal or not than Dean (and it is not really debatable in my mind, Kerry IS more liberal), Dean will pick up the liberal votes - if he continues to demonstrate the capacity to deliver a broad/based campaign strategy that rewrites traditional campaign strategies and thus presents promise to actually being able to beat Bush by changing the nature of the campaign altogether.

[sangh0]

64. Excellent analysis, salin

It points my greatest concern wrt Kerry's campaign, and that is that I'm not sure if Kerry has it in him to do what needs to be done. He is not as dynamic a communicator as Dean is, and the delivery of unacticipated curve balls is going to require some excellent communications skills from the candidate. The "curve balls" will not be covered by the media if the candidate throwing them doesn't play well on TV. These curve balls will not be about ideas and issues only. They will also require visual and audio. Otherwise, cable and TV networks will have nothing to show.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

34. Go to...

the www.Vote-Smart.org website and look at how Kerry has voted on the issues -- that is were the rubber hits the road, on his votes. Also look at the ratings given him by special interest groups like environmental and women's groups -- that can also tell you a lot.

I was surprised to find that he voted 90-100% of the time favorably on issues that are the most important to me -- and I am a SF Liberal. Only Kuchinich matched him.

Now, that doesn't that I support Kerry, or that I haven't been very unhappy with some of the things he done, but I at least have a clear idea of who this man is when he is called on to make legislative decisions.

And I think that's important.

[bearfan454]

35. Good point, but

We have to WIN no matter what, legally, not like the repukes.

[blm]

50. Kerry is a liberal who speaks to moderates, like John Kennedy.

Dean is a longtime centrist who NOW speaks like a populist, but only since last January. If that is what you're looking for, then Dean is your man.

[mitchum]

69. THank you for speaking that truth....

even though many on this board (astroturfers and others) will continue to not hear it.

[TLM]

79. So Kerry is the liberal... despite his votes over the last 3 years.

And Dean is the centrist despite his opposition to the Bush agenda that Kerry has been voting for?


Kerry voted for the no child left behind act, the 350 billion tax cut amendment, the patriot act, the war, sat out the PBA ban vote, and yet Dean, who signed the civil unions bill into law, got heath care for most people in Vermont, reformed education, reduced child abuse by %43 ad child sexual abuse by %70, all while balancing the budget... is the compromising centrist?

I'll take Dean's progressive compromises over Kerry's any day. Dean's compromises got people healthcare, child care, job training, civil unions, better schools, and safer kids... Kerry's got us war, recession, worse schools, and the loss of civil liberties.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

92. Ted Kennedy Shepharded The No Child Left Behind Act

through the Senate... As the old warhorse said, "sometimes you need to compromise to get things done..."

When you're talking Kennedy... you're talking liberalism...

[blm]

93. What flavor KoolAid are you pouring, TLM?

You can't change their histories. Revisionism is for Republicans.

[Karmadillo]

38. No need to rush, bearfan454. The first caucus and primary are light years

away. If you feel jilted by Kerry (and, as with all relationships, time may bring a reconciliation--he's been a reliable liberal for years, and while I disagree with how he voted on the war and the Patriot Act, he would be an incredible improvement over the disaster currently squatting in the White House), there's no need to choose someone else on the rebound. Dean clearly isn't going away and will be more than happy to accept your support down the road if you decide he's the one for you.

Why not, instead, suspend judgment for a week or two and look around? There are a lot of candidates from which to choose (and maybe even more on the way). For example, you might want to check out this site for Dennis Kucinich. I'm sure there's a wealth of similar resources out there for other candidates. Once you take the time to compare and contrast, you're more likely to be certain you've found the candidate who best represents you.

Good luck with your choice.

[bearfan454]

59. I think you are right after reading the responses from DU

I may have chosen a little early. Thank you everyone for giving me your viewpoint and educating me a little more..........bearfan454

[SayitAintSo]

43. "...way more to the left than Kerry is..." What ? DDR

Where do you get that ? Please provide data. I have to believe that you have not seriously researched the positions / voting records of each. Me and and my dem friends have an acronym we use to explain republican ignorance and attandant rhetorical blather - we call it "RDR" - (republicans don't read). It appears that some dems are simularly afflicted with "DDR"...

[MaverickX]

47. please reconsider...

First of all how is Dean less centrist than Kerry? Secondly why is it bad to attempt to win the center as well as the left? Do you really want the GOP to get the center? The GOP does so well because they're able to appeal to their core and center voters.

Bush has become so radical that we have a huge chance to draw moderate voters away from the GOP. Kerry isn't Bushlite by any means, he opposes Bush on many things.

Foreign policy and national security will be major issues in 2004 and Kerry has immense experience on these issues. He truly has the greatest ability to beat Bush. What would Kerry need to do to win your vote back?

[disgruntella]

56. what good will saying "bush is wrong" do

... after bush is gone?

I say support Dean or any other candidate you choose, but keep in mind that confronting Bush is not enough -- you have to look at the candidates' actual positions on the issues and their records.

Also, what specifically did Kerry say that turned you off?

[Redleg]

58. Kerry is not republican lite- look at his voting record over the years.

He may not be a raving liberal like some of us here but he'll be a damn lot better than the chimp we now have in office. In fact, most of the current crop of Dem candidates will be better than Bush.

[OrdinaryTa]

60. War Hero Kerry

John Kerry exploited a loophole and served only a third of his 12-month combat tour in Vietnam. Although healthy and able-bodied, he took advantage of a technicality to return to the States, where a soft job awaited him. Kerry's actions are equivalent to that of a soldier in Iraq who, deployed in March, returns in July. Questioned about the comrades he left behind in Vietnam, Kerry wept.

Edit: deleted extra word

[NewYorkerfromMass]

65. Gee maybe Kerry could have stayed to frag a whole village like Kerrey

Nothing like 20 20 hindsight. Give Kerry credit for knowing a bad situation and how to live another day so that others might not have to go thru the same hell themselves.

[TLM]

80. "so that others might not have to go thru the same hell themselves."

you mean like the hell in Iraq that Kerry voted to send our troops into?

Kerry seems to care about one thing... Kerry.

[bushisanidiot]

66. I"m a firm Dean supporter, but I don't blame Kerry if it is true

that he tried to get out of the war early. At least the guy showed up to the fight and fought for his country, risking life and limb, unlike AWOL, Nose-picker in Chief!!

[Octafish]

67. Kerry came back early from SECOND Tour in Vietnam...

... after he was wounded three times, won a Bronze Star with V for Valor and a Silver Star for courage under fire. He requested permission for early release from service in order to be able to OPPOSE THE WAR without violating the UCMJ. Don't misrepresent his record, please.

[seventhson]

68. No Second Tour

4 months in country. He came home for R&R between assignments. But his whole service there was NOT two tours.

Kerry again tries to make it look that way because he came home and went back like the good rich kid he is. His first assignment was way out of harm's way -- though he was in the theatre in Nam. He went back to do about four months in the Delta.

I have NEVER heard the details of the purple hearts, but I am suspicious of them. He might have had a bloody nose, athlete';s foot and stepped on a nail for all we know.

We have discussed this before and I think we should see his service record of his medals before declaring him any kind of hero.

Some have accused him of murdering a wounded soldier in the incident where he got the silver star (a possible war crime). Bronze stars are apparently a dime a dozen for officers (so others have said here)

For the BFEE (especially the skull and bones spooks) military service to pick up medals easily is often part of the plan.

Apparently he left the military early to go into POLITICS and NOT to oppose the war.

I think that is pure fabrication.

But if you have a link on that I'll read it.


Hewre's one of my best sources on this:
http://www.boston.com/globe/specialreports/1996/oct/senate/jk106.htm

[Dhalgren]

72. I am not a warmonger, nor am I a Kerry supporter,

but I do not like ridiculing a veteran's war service and his citations. Kerry's service record wil come out, there is no doubt about that, and if it is a "fake" record he will be vilified. Until such a time, however, belittling the service of a vet, without proof of any falsehood, is repugnant. That's just my HO.

[seventhson]

74. Read the article. Kerry lies.

It may well be that he was heroic in battle. It also may well be that he was "favored" in the way that many wealthy are favored. It may also be that his medals were entirely deserved and/or that he committed violations of the Geneva Convention.

But, to say there is no evidence that he fabricated things is simply not true. He said on the National media that he threw his medals away when in fact he did NOT. That indicates that ANYTHING he says is potentially false -- inclusding his war record.

It demonstrates a cowardice of spirit that I believe would be reprehensible to ALL Vietnam vets.

Also, Kerry has talked about vets being spit on and reviled which may well be another lie for the BFEE's agenda.

I have many friends who served honorably. SOMETIMES men like Kerry (privileged and pampered, even in the Nam) got away with a lot due to this privilege.

I await the record, though, and the witnesses/

My point is that you cannot trust the man nor can you trust his war record. He lies.

[Fabio]

73. Blatantly wrong. Read on.

Look at your favorite source, the Boston Globe.
{snip}

Kerry served two tours. For a relatively uneventful six months, from December 1967 to June 1968, he served in the electrical department aboard the USS Gridley, a guided-missile frigate that supported aircraft carriers in the Gulf of Tonkin and was far removed from combat.

"I didn't have any real feel for what the heck was going on ," Kerry has recalled. His ship returned to its Long Beach, Calif., port on June 6, 1968, the day that Robert F. Kennedy died from a gunshot wound he received on the previous night at a Los Angeles hotel. The antiwar protests were growing. But within five months Kerry was heading back to Vietnam, seeking to fulfill his officer commitment despite his growing misgivings about the war.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

Two tours.

As for the severity of his wounds, I think John Kerry has been pretty clear:

{snip}

Kerry had been wounded three times and received three Purple Hearts. Asked about the severity of the wounds, Kerry said that one of them cost him about two days of service, and that the other two did not interrupt his duty. "Walking wounded," as Kerry put it.

[seventhson]

76. six months plus 4 months does NOT make Two Tours. Ask a vet

It does not even make one FULL tour of 365 days.

I am not even sure the shipboard stint counts as a tour "in Vietnam" since he was in the theater but not on the ground.

Maybe this is another prevarication on Kerry's part: where he fudged the story to an ignorant reporter. All the vets I know who did Two tours did two FULL years in the Nam.

When Vietnam vets describe TWO tours in Nam they generally mean two full years.

One more example, in my opinion, of why you can't trust what he says.

Thanks for the details on the wounds though. They sound like possibly pretty cheesy purple hearts like athlete's foot or a non-enemy injury (which in a combat zone might get you a purple heart if you had the right connections). I await more details if anyone you can find them. If they ARE chessy then I'm sure Kerry has them buried somewhere.

Any vets out there who can weigh in?

[OrdinaryTa]

86. Lenihan's Wound

Lenihan got a bugbite on his upper lip and it swelled up. The First Sergeant noticed the swelling and asked Lenihan if it had been there before the last firefight. Lenihan answered truthfully that it hadn't.

I'm not sure that Lenihan actually wore the purple heart he was awarded. He laughed about it and everybody else did too. True story!

The Colonel got a silver star for backshooting a Viet Cong who was running away. Swooped right down in his helicopter and plugged that dude! Also a true story.

[Woodstock]

62. You have just picked the next president of the United States!

:)

If you haven't heard Dean's campaign announcment speech yet, I encourage you to:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/webcast

[seventhson]

71. Excerpt about Kerry and Vietnam (Proves he is a liar)

Note. This is from the link I posted above (the 1996 Boston Globe article)


Kerry was WEARING his medals when he testified in 1971 (reading a speech written by someone else to a hearing orchestrated by his skull and bones cronies). So when he said that he did not throw his medals away when all his colleagues did in protest "because he did not have time to get them (in NY)" he was LYING.

Kerry is a Charlatan and a total fraud. This artiucle proves it. I had never quite picked up on the fact that in the medals toss incident he was CLEARLY Lying because he had worn his medals the day before during his TESTIMONY. He HAD them. He just FAKED throwing them away. He is shit in my book.

Excerpt from article:


At a jammed Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on April 22, 1971, Kerry took his case to Congress. Television cameras lined the walls, and veterans packed the seats. Kerry was dressed in his green fatigues and wore his Silver Star and Purple Heart ribbons, although he said he left the medals at home. With his thatch of dark hair swept across his brow, Kerry sat at a witness table and delivered the most famous speech of his life, the speech that defined him and made possible his political career.

"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam?" Kerry asked. "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" Attacking the Nixon White House, he said, "This administration has done us the ultimate dishonor. They have attempted to disown us and the sacrifices we made for this country."

Almost forgotten in that famous speech were Kerry's controversial assertions that Vietnam veterans had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephone to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

To some veterans, including some of those who served alongside Kerry, this was too much. They thought they had served honorably, and they had seen Kerry as a gung-ho skipper who led the charge and didn't voice such opposition on the battlefield.

"I would go up a river with that man anytime. He was a great American fighting man," said Michael Bernique, a highly decorated veteran who served as a swift boat skipper alongside Kerry. But Bernique remains upset with Kerry's assertion that atrocities were committed, an assertion that Kerry has not backed away from. "I think there was a point in time when John was making it up fast and quick. I think he was saying whatever he needed to say."

In the Oval Office, President Nixon delivered a backhanded compliment to Kerry, whom he distinguished from the other "bearded weirdos."

The "real star" of the hearing was Kerry, Nixon told chief of staff H. R. "Bob" Haldeman and national security adviser Henry Kissinger the day after Kerry testified, according to the secretly taped White House recordings.

"He did a hell of a great job," Haldeman said.

"He was extremely effective," Nixon agreed.

"He did a superb job on it at Foreign Relations Committee yesterday," Haldeman said. "A Kennedy-type guy, he looks like a Kennedy, and he, he talks exactly like a Kennedy."

"Where did he serve?" Nixon asked.

"He was a Navy lieutenant, j.g., on a gunboat, and he used to run his gunboat up and shoot at, shoot babies out of women's arms," Haldeman said. (A member of Kerry's crew had shot and killed a Vietnamese child in an episode that occurred in a "free-fire zone," according to Kerry, but it is not clear whether Haldeman knew about the matter or was being jocular.)

[GalleryGod]

83. RIB-BONS.In the United States we don't wear our MEDALS.

We keep them in a box:display or otherwise.Only in places like Argentina,Paraguay,Uganda, or West Texas do soldiers wear them on their uniforms.

Senator Kerry testified before SFRC on April 22nd,a Thursday.

The Vets & Gold Star Mothers cast down their medals (near the Capitol Steps)at "Dewey Canyon III" ,on Friday,April 23rd.

Kerry,indeed, tossed the RIBBONS referenced in your piece, AND tossed the "medals of a friend who can't be with us today". I was 15 yards away. And YOU were nearby maybe,too, and saw or heard something different?? Were you with us that day or any part of the 5 days of Dewey Canyon III?

How about at Arlington? That was bad,too. Locked out by our Government.

I fear this won't change your made-up mind,but,I thought it might help you release some the anger.

[OrdinaryTa]

88. Officers Wear Miniature Medals

Officers wear miniature medals on their evening dress uniforms. As a junior officer, Kerry may or may not have had occasion to wear this particular uniform. Senior officers are required to own one.

In either case, the distinction between ribbons and medals is arbitrary, inasmuch as the ribbon symbolizes the medal; in fact it's part of it. Throwing away ribbons is no different from throwing away the medals themselves, unless, of course, it's an empty gesture.

[MODemocrat]

81. I supported Kerrey before he headed to the middle

and still respect and admire him, but I like Dean's stance, so have switched over to Dean's camp.

[blm]

99. So you've gone over to a REAL centrist now.

That's nice, centrists should have a strong representative to vote for. Dean fits the bill perfectly.

[David Zephyr]

84. A Big Welcome to the Dean Camp.

Kerry would be the candidate...if Howard Dean wasn't in the race.

I had to make the very same decision. It seemed to take me forever, but like you, Howard Dean is for me.

:hi:

[Octafish]

94. WHAT in the name of Mike Ditka are you doing?

You want exciting OFFENSE? Support Kerry — he is a man of vision who does what's best for the country and ALL Americans. His 19-year record as a liberal Democrat shows he's willing to do the hard work of building a better future.

You want strong DEFENSE? Support Kerry — he is a veteran and a combat leader who understands that America and its military must be the strongest nation in the world to remain free. The US beat the Depression, won World War 2, and clobbered the Commies in the Cold War because we are strong.

You want solid SPECIAL TEAMS? Support Kerry — the guy believes in a UNITED United States of America, where every person is treated equally and represents an infinite universe of promise and possibilities. That's why Kerry is so gung-ho about Head Start, public education, college and higher education, and adult job training courses.

Gee, bearfan454. You got me going there. Almost called a 10-yarder for holding in honor of Mr. Halas. Sure, Kerry gets near ZERO media covereage. There's a reason. John Kerry is Rove’s biggest nightmare.

[molly]

95. Get real - you've always supported Dean

Dean is not left - he is center and he is a MILLIONARE - hubba - hubba - hubba - you go dean guy!! This board is NO example of what the public thinks BTW!!

[Woodstock]

100. Uh, what about the NH/Iowa polls and Dean's rising familiarity?

Dean is doing quite well in NH and Iowa; also in California and other states. Lieberman and Kerry are much better known nationally - Dean was a virtual unknown. But sure, dismiss his popularity here and in NH and Iowa as being insignificant, and instead, go with the national - AKA name recognition - polls. Just don't get too comfortable. There's a lot of time for people to get to know the good doctor, and there's a funny thing we've been seeing - the more they get to know him, the more they like him.

[poskonig]

98. I supported Kerry in 2002.

I was especially impressed by Kerry's threatening to filibuster Bush's ANWR bill on the Senate floor.

But then Kerry supported the war, and Dean gave the "what I wanna know" speech, and the rest is history.