Fundies practice Retro-Christianity

[Ruffhowse]

I'm old enough to remember the 60's and during that turbulent decade, and into the 70's, many Christian leaders (as well as many ordinary neighborhood clergy) identified with the anti-war movement and the counter-culture aspects of our society of that era. Mainstream Christianity at the time seemed progressive and enlightened. It's such a shock and disappointment to find, decades later, that Christianity in the US has gone through some sort of retrograde transformation that makes it appear almost medieval in comparison to it's 60's form. Fundie Christianity may have all the trappings of modernity, such as mega churches with rock bands playing praise Jesus songs into a state of the art sound system, but at it's heart, it is very primitive in it's theology. Anyone have any ideas why this came about?

[Why Syzygy]

1. let me guess

because it's totally barbarian/medieval/primitive?

I have absolutely no compassion for fundies.
Why do you?

Luke:
30 Jesus took up the question and said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him, beat him up, and fled, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down that road. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 In the same way, a Levite, when he arrived at the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, while traveling, came up to him; and when he saw the man , he had compassion. 34 He went over to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said, 'Take care of him; and when I come back I'll reimburse you for whatever extra you spend.' 36 "Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?" 37 "The one who showed mercy to him," he said. Then Jesus told him, "Go and do the same."

[Ruffhowse]

2. I feel sorry for the many honestly spiritual people who are misled and

captured by the cultlike practices of Fundie Christianity, but I have nothing but contempt for their leadership.

[Why Syzygy]

9. 'honestly spiritual'

people will find their way AWAY from the so-called 'leadership'.

Spirituality has no LEADER. It is a personal experience.

Thanks.

[Lexingtonian]

3. Don't forget

A lot of people left the churches during the '60s. It hit the 'mainline' (moderate) and liberal denominations a lot harder than the conservative ones. Mostly because the conservative ones were mostly more rural or small town and the kids of the region didn't get all that good educations, so relatively few left their regions and sorts of churches. In suburbia and such, the kids all end up in other cities or differently flavored suburbs, and they meet a pretty good cross-section of other Americans in college and their twenties, and finding a church closely resembling the one they left- and all the mainline ones seemed to be changing all the time- is surprisingly difficult.

There was a 10 to 15 year period roughly spanning the Seventies before centrist Boomers went back to the churches with their young families. What they found was that all the liberal and mainline churches were pretty aged out- and all on the verge on schism between the liberals/moderates and the conservatives. The life and community and energy -and their peer group- was in the surge of conservative and 'nondenominational' churches that made sure to be chic and large enough for people not to feel too closely scrutinized. And 'conservative' atmosphere meant kind of a time-suspended haven during messy, confusing times full of pointless 'issues' and fruitless arguments- the Eighties and early Nineties. At the time the Republicans didn't feel the need to polarize things as much as now, either: there were more than enough small-c conservative leaners around, lots of conservative Democrats keeping Democratic victories pretty centrist affairs, and abortion was a more than sufficiently powerful issue to snag all the old folks.

In retrospect I'm not too surprised. It's not just the churches that have done this; it seems that all kinds of private clubs and associations separated into Old Guard/moderate and extremist Right and intimidated Liberal parts. A lot of people simply can't adapt to the Modern Age, especially because it appeared in so many awkward and unrecognized and just plain wierd little pieces initially without people being prepared for them generally.

And you're right about the primitivism of the 'fundie' theology. I'm pained every time I have to dig out yet another pre-Christian first millenium '-ism' or Roman era schisma to explain the internal 'logic' by which they operate. Why this is so? Because these people are actually trying to practice the pre-Christian religions and putting Christian patina on what they do and the rationalizations for it. It's ancient paganisms cocooned in Bible-talk and the Old Gods masquerading as the Trinity. They have to find justifications for it in the early books of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament in which relatively impure paganism-infiltrated formulations of Judaism are permitted to the people the books are written about. It's all about misreading the Bible with the eyes, mind, assumptions, and sensibilities of pagans and largely ignoring the Jewish cultural and philosophical/religious context assumed by the text. The result is amazingly medieval.

[Why Syzygy]

10. Is it just me?

or does anyone else give a damn about relationships anymore?

I do not care for church of any stripe. Is that my problem?

Why do we not care for one another anymore?
Did we ever?

Are we humanists to blame for this?

I am at a loss to explain this sudden lack of humanity.
gwb notwithstanding (that would do it).

[Lexingtonian]

12. It would be nice if you gave your questions some context

But in a generic sense, we're at one of those transitional points again. Our side is demanding a set of fundamental changes in American society, changes that will totally change what groups of people have real share in governance/power and the wealth.

What happens at the critical stages, near the tipping point, the side that calls itself the side of Progress defines itself by one alteration of the national Constitution. The side that calls itself Conservative ultimately almost tears up the whole of the Constitution in trying to thwart the side of Progress from succeeding with its one change. That's just how people are. The paradox is awesome- the Conservatives will sacrifice 99% of the thing to keep that 1% that defines their power, the Progressives want to conserve 99% and change 1% definitively. In our case, IMHO the 1% is Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, and we don't want to even change the wording- we want to change the way the courts systematically avoid interpreting and enforcing its plain language.

The Constitution represents our social contract, our agreement to be a society that strives for civilization with each other. It is more than the dry arrangements, it's the charter of the collective social enterprise and Dream. It's our Covenant, the terms of our walking with our God toward a Destiny. And when a large portion of the society- about half- decides that giving it up might actually be a pretty good idea, it rips at every single person's social comfort and relations in the society and sense of the prospects of the whole. That's the tragedy of a civil war like the one we're presently having. Metaphorically it fills the sky with black clouds and the air with ash and the fields with trenches and the hospitals with casualties.

[Bridget Burke]

13. It's just you.

Counseling might help.

[izzie]

4. I recall those days also.

I think it was a type of Christian churches. The same people who liked the Vietnam war then seem to like it now and are mad we left, and also like this war. We seem to have this hate the Reds and hate the Left as the same people. Also they do not like any thing that is not Am. This new church group seem to have made America some thing to do with their religion. I swear it sounds a lot like the early Puritans of Mass bay, if you have ever read a thing about them. Main line church people do not seem to do that. They just do not like wars. An un-just ones they do not like a lot.

[ixat]

5. Wow, I didn't know that...

although I guess it stands to reason, seeing how MLK was a minister...

[quaker bill]

6. This is true in a sense, but so do liberal Christians

This division in the Christian community has existed for hundreds of years. The 1960's did bring these issues back to the forefront and did cause some of the mainline churches to answer tough questions about where their understanding of faith led them to stand on the issues.

Liberal Christian groups go back to at least the Anabaptists and Quakers in the early to mid 1600's. Liberal Christian thought that led to the formation of these groups goes back even farther.

This division was prominent in the US during the Colonial period in Mass. bay and elsewhere.

[hollowdweller]

7. I disagree there were plenty of ministers who supported the war

The difference now is that the ones that oppose the war are either not as numerous or are just not being heard in a public way.

[shadowknows69]

8. not medieval but before Christ

They're not practicing Christianity. The Jesus I read would never allow this bloodshed to occur. Funny I thought the words "turn the other cheek, pray(not bomb)for those that persecute you." was pretty clear, thus I am a pacifist. Insane as this may seem to our human animal egos, yes this means not even to defend yourself against evil...or you become your enemy. If any of these people had real faith in their God shouldn't they be content to let him come down and smite their enemies? Or at least be assured in the knowledge that the proper judgement would be doled out on judgement day. I think the neo-con version of faith is nothing of the kind. It's fear and hatred that drive a war machine. Not a loving God.

[MemphisTiger]

11. The new testament is a little contradictary

In Luke 2:36-38, Jesus tells his deciple to carry two swords. Yet in Matthew 5:9, He said "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." Yet again, He drove the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip(Don't remember the scripture verse). So there are a few contradictions in the Bible.

[shadowknows69]

16. True that

I still don't quite see the justification for war on a grand scale. As far as the temple incident. Granted God has doled out his share of death and jugdgement in the bible. God's job is to judge us mere mortals, I just don't see a human mandate for atrocity.

[Bridget Burke]

14. Check out Christian Reconstructionism.....

The founding father, Rousas Rushdoony, became known in the '70's. They want to remake the world (starting with the USA) into an extremely Calvinist vision of the Old Testament. Here's their website: www.chalcedon.edu/ (Note the "Christianity Under Attack" section--did these guys invent that concept that's been cropping up lately?)

This interesting site was compiled by a serious Christian who's appalled by the whole thing; I haven't studied it in sufficient depth: www.serve.com/thibodep/cr/cr.htm

On the link page of the previous site, find out how "stealth Reconstructionists" can subvert the "regular" Evangelicals & Fundamentalists. The guys over at First Baptist may have some idiosyncrasies, but they aren't extremist nutcases; however, they're being used by them.
www.serve.com/thibodep/cr/infil.txt

For what shall it profit Christianity, if it shall gain the whole world, and lose its own soul?

[Laughing Mirror]

15. From one of your links, Bridget, The 9 Commandments

What would such a "Christian America" look like? The following are some
elements of a biblical Law approach to civil law and order:

1. It obligates government to maintain just monetary policies, thus
prohibiting fiat money, fractional reserve banking, and deficit spending.
2. It provides a moral basis for elective government officials.
3. It forbids undue, abusive taxation of the rich.
4. It calls for the abolishing of the prison system and the establishing a system of just restitution.
5. It forbids the release, pardoning, and paroling of murderers by
requiring their execution.
6. It forbids industrial pollution that destroys the value of property.
7. It punishes malicious, frivolous malpractice suits.
8. It forbids abortion rights. Abortion is not only a sin, but a crime,
and, indeed, a capital crime.
9. It commands the nation to welcome foreigners and legal immigrants.