They're NOT FASCISTS I Tell You! STOP Comparing Them To NAZI'S!!!!

[Beetwasher]

Stop saying that and comparing these fucking pigs to Nazi's!! They haven't murdered 6 million jews yet so Nazi comparisons are crazy!!! After they murder 6 million jews THEN and ONLY then can we can compare them to Nazis!!!! :eyes:

If you don't see the writing on the wall you are an idiot. Sorry (well, not really) to be blunt.

--snip--

Gay book ban goal of state lawmaker

MONTGOMERY - An Alabama lawmaker who sought to ban gay marriages now wants to ban novels with gay characters from public libraries, including university libraries.

A bill by Rep. Gerald Allen, R-Cottondale, would prohibit the use of public funds for "the purchase of textbooks or library materials that recognize or promote homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle." Allen said he filed the bill to protect children from the "homosexual agenda.

--snip--

http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1101896768316400.xml

[7th_Sephiroth]

1. how about the hundreads of thousands of muslims they have killed

and counting

[Beetwasher]

2. When It Reaches 6 Million, Then Let's Talk

/sarcasm/

[7th_Sephiroth]

11. how do y ou know it hasent allready?

the media doesent ever say anything aobut it, and numbers are allways artificially deflated

[kendric]

209. artificially deflated

you mean inflated.

[mandyky]

198. Nazis weren't Nazis because they killed anyone

Nazi is a Nationalist Socialist and has nothing to do with killing. We better keep comparing this crew to Nazis, so that they don't get to kill any more than they already have.

BTW, people who have lived through the Halocaust say we resemble the early 30s, before the killing started en masse. You don't have to call these folks anything, but I reserve my right to call a spade a spade, in this case a Nazi a Nazi.

[cyberpj]

114. what's the statute of limitations on time? can we include native americans

Let's start at the beginning of our quest for "freedom".

And just who's we took since we got here.


All of us.

Everywhere.



It's been said

There is no Them just Us.

[AntiFascist]

137. If you include the First Gulf War and its aftermath....

its more than a few hundreds of thousands.

[pauldp]

3. Wasn't Mussolini the one who started Fascism? Not the Nazis?

The Italians didn't kill 6 million Jews but they sure were Fascists.

[HuckleB]

7. True enough, as far as it goes.

Not to diminish the reality of our current fascist administration, but the Italians had no problem sending hundreds of thousands of Jews, Gypsies and others to certain death in German concentration camps. Of course, neither did Vichy France.

[rogerashton]

18. And sent their troops off

to conquer a less developed country. (Ethiopia) The troops suffered because they didn't have the materiel they needed, the money having been skimmed by industrialists who were fascist insiders. Of course, the Ethiopians suffered even more.

Sound familiar?

Oh -- and as I understand it, the trains didn't run on time, either, but "accountability" was a big fascist theme.

[iamjoy]

4. There Goes Lord Byron...

If they ban gay lit.

I know there are others....

Oh, and we'll have to be careful reading Abraham Lincoln's biography. As a young man he shared a bed with a male friend.

[SemperEadem]

172. and they'll have to remove the King James bibles while they're at it

King James had male lovers...

[HuckleB]

5. I wish I could say that this is unbelievable.

But I can't. The land of the free, we are not. Though we will need some true bravery to fight these bullies.

[atre]

6. Fascism doesn't denote mass murder

Fascism is Benito Mussolini's brand of far right corporatism in Italy, where Jews were ostracized but not murdered.

[DeadHead67]

13. Jews WERE murdered while the Italians . . . . .

. . . as well as the Pope, looked on and wrung their collective hands. They were rounded up and exported for slaughter, practically under the Pope's window, while he agonized: Oh! What to do?!! What to do?!! That was Pius the XII. 'Pro Life' anyone?

[chicagiana]

I think Pius the XII was an asshole !!!!

But his hands on the matter were pretty much tied. If he wanted to oppose Moussilini, he would have had to flee Italy and set up an exile vatican in the United States.

[atre]

192. I don't know whether this is true or not...

... but a Catholic recently told me that Pius XII was bribed into silence; he accepted Vatican City as a sovereign nation-state in exchange for complicity in the corporatist regime.

[the other rick]

230. Please see my reply in this chain NT

[the other rick]

228. The State of Israel

planted a tree for every Jew that they felt was saved from the Holocaust by the actions of Pope Pius XII and the Catholic Church.

800,000 trees. Some Jewish leaders were mad, 'cuz they were sure it was more, maybe 1,000,000.

Sounds like maybe he didn't stand around *too* much, huh?

[lutherj]

8. The Nazis were fascists before they killed 6 million jews. They

were fascists when they bombed Guernica, when they invaded Poland.

Fascism leads to violence and genocide, and in a world of shrinking resources, and a growing population that's already beyond the earth's carring capacity, it seems to me that genocide is in the cards. Besides, if the right can call me a "socialist" just for supporting a single-payer healthcare system, why shouldn't I use the term "fascist" to describe their virulent policies?

[Endangered Specie]

9. Bushs death toll is in the 6 figure range...

and it is still growing, remember the Nazi's had 13 years, Bush has only had 4 and will have 8.

Lets also not forget that Jews werent the only victims of the Nazis.

[offcenter]

10. Bush is not a Nazi!

So stop saying that!

(see hilarious flash animation by Symbolman)
http://web.takebackthemedia.com/geeklog/public_html/staticpages/index.php?page=20040601225012523

Music from ClockWork Orange and Spike Jones.

[jmatthan]

48. Bush is too stupid to be a facist

but his handlers are fascists and he plays their tune!!

Also Bush's base started from facist money brought home by his grandfather!!

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[chicagiana]

84. Bush's grandfather FINANCED the Nazis!!!!

Little Georgie seems to hold ALL the beliefs that his granpappy did. He actively cavorts with enemies of US democracy (the Saudis. He supports totalitarian governments abroad and at home.

We were all wrong when we said Saddam Hussein is the next Hitler. BUSH is the next Hitler!!!! He'll get to the 6 million dead, give him a little time!!!

[NCN007]

194. and his dad

defended our country from the imperial japanese navy. Bush is an idiot, but he does not participate in systematic genocide. Desert Storm and OIF are wars, so was Bosnia and Somalia to a lesser extent

[Endangered Specie]

168. Der Fuhrer's Face!

that song comes from an old Donald Duck WWII Cartoon short.

[YankeeFan]

217. The Song Came First

Spike Jones dood it.

Sorry.

[minerva50]

12. Facism is rule by the corporations

I think that's a pretty good definition of what is going on in Bush's America.

[Cleita]

23. I think we have stepped beyond that definition.

We have definitely crossed over into Nazi territory with the prison tortures and the attempted genocide of certain sectors of ethnicity. We are using depleted uranium and napalm in places like Fallujah to annihilate certain sects of Muslims that the Bushzis don't want around anymore. These weapons destroy everyone not just militants. The Nazis also didn't discriminate between civilians that included women and children and militants, yet they scapegoated them for everything that went wrong, much like the Sunnis.

[aquart]

14. Mussolini didn't kill 6 million Jews.

Mussolini was a fascist. Your definition: Fascist=murderer of 6 million is ridiculous.

Buy a dictionary. Read the correct definition. It's George.

[noiretextatique]

38. doesn't this sound eerily familiar?

from a very interesting site on books published during mussolini's reign.

Paolo Orano. Gli Ebrei in Italia. 2nd ed. Rome: Casa Editrice Pinciana, 1938
Orano's diatribe (first published in 1937) provided the intellectual premise for the racial laws directed by Mussolini's government against its Jewish subjects in the course of 1938. This subtle, nuanced, but devastating attack on Italy's forty thousand Jews for their alleged Zionist sympathies, championing of "degenerate" avant-garde cultural expressions, and doubtful loyalty to the Fascist regime and its imperial claims, was an ominous prelude to the impending storm. Prompt responses to Orano's work by prominent Jewish figures, also exhibited here, were to no avail.

And this should be a reminder to bushbots, especially gay, black, latino, poor, and female ones.

Ettore Ovazza. Il Problema Ebraico. Risposta a Paolo Orano. Rome: Casa Editrice Pinciana, 1938.
On the eve of Mussolini's discriminatory laws, this reply to Paolo Orano's attack on Italian Jews came from the pen of a wealthy Piedmontese Jew who was also an ardent Fascist. He disclaimed Zionism and rejected any attempt to see Italian Jews as other than fully integrated into Italian culture and desirous of sharing the common destiny of the nation. Ironically, this champion of Fascism and his family were among the first victims of Nazi-Fascist persecution after Italy left the war in September 1943 and the Germans swiftly occupied the country. Less than a month later, Ovazza and his entire family were seized and brutally massacred on 9 October at Gressoney, near the Swiss border, while they attempted to flee to safety.

http://www.library.wisc.edu/libraries/dpf/Fascism/Race.html

[chicagiana]

85. Book burning fundamentalists ...

Look for the fundamentalists to start holding burning of modern media material that isn't sanitized and properly respectful of their version of Jesus!!!!

[sir_captain]

196. It sure does...

I've seen Jews attacked here on DU for their alleged Zionist sympathies and their "doubtful loyalty" to anyone except Israel lots of times!

But seriously, I see where you're coming from, and there are some parallels, though as a student of history, I don't think the comparison is overly valid at this point in time...not saying it might not be down the road, but there's as of yet, no comparison to anything, like, say, the SA.

[noiretextatique]

224. gays, liberals, "hollywood elites", blue staters, upptiy women, muslims,

not JUST jews, but i'll include them as well...if they are liberals. the comparison is apt: NOW. the rw's cultural wars and its targets...that is what is eerily familar. parallels my ass...it's the same rhetoric with different targets. how many rw wingnuts continue to question the loyalty of liberals? how many snide ways was kerry's loyalty questioned? and not all jewish people here are blindly loyal to israel.

[Beetwasher]

40. *sigh*

Sarcasm anyone? Whoosh! Head missed completely...:eyes:

[Forkboy]

65. There goes the sarcasm train!

Sorry you missed it :shrug:

[noiretextatique]

226. Mussolini...nah, he just exiled a bunch of anti-facists

the germans murdered approx. 8,000 italian jews, including some facists.

[Kikosexy2]

15. They're...

F*#kin' Nazis, Nazis, Nazis!!! There I said it--I'm happy--Now back to our regular scheduled program.

[McKenzie]

16. that is really worrying

is that political joke claiming being gay is a "lifestyle choice"? Ah right, I remember thinking whether I wanted to be straight or gay when those hormone thingies started to give me acne. Let me see...which lifestyle "choice" do I want to make? straight? gay? straight? heads or tails? heads...so straight it is.

"the trouble with political jokes is they get elected"

Groucho Marx

[bowens43]

17. Yes they are facists.

Like Bush , Hitler was elected. When Hitler came to power he had not yet murdered anyone. This administration has murdered over 100,000 people so far.

(was your post sarcastic?)


12 Warning Signs of Fascism

1. Exuberant nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic images, slogans and symbols - National flags are seen everywhere in public display. Territorial aggression is explained to be mere destiny -- an unbidden greatness thrust upon the nation by history.

It is this burden of unique responsibility that now raises the fascist state above all previous constraint, no longer bound by international obligations, treaties or law.


2. Enemies Identified

This national cause is identified as unity against enemies - The people are rallied around a unifying patriotism directed against some common threat: communists, liberals, a racial, ethnic or religious minority, intellectuals, homosexuals, terrorists, etc.

The state's message is sometimes couched in an easily recognized religious theme. Amazingly, this language is used even when the full context of the teaching shows the meaning to be diametrically opposed. Any dissent is "siding with the enemy", and therefore treasonous.


3. Rights Disappear

Disdain for human and political rights - Fascist regimes foster an artificial climate of fear by intentionally amplifying stress and anxiety. Citizens naturally feel a strong need for security and are easily persuaded to ignore abuses in the name of safety. The few still willing to question are met with bullying and smear campaigns of intimidation.

Legislative bodies, if still in existence at all, are cowed into rubber-stamp submission with occasional ceremonial opposition. The judiciary tends to become activist in support of state views. The public often looks away, or even enthusiastically approves as rights are stripped away.

The concept of the individual inevitably yields ground, exchanged for the promised safety of the all-powerful state.


4. Secrecy Demanded

Obsession with secrecy and national security - The workings of government become increasingly hidden. Questioning of authority is discouraged at all levels of society. From office talk at the water cooler up through the entire apparatus of rule, guarded speech and secrecy become ends in themselves.

Troubling questions are muted and entire areas of scrutiny are placed out of bounds by simply invoking "national security".


5. Military Glorified

Supremacy of the military - The military establishment receives a disproportionate share of government resources, even as pressing domestic needs are neglected. Individual soldiers and military culture are glamorized and made constantly visible.

This provides both an object for public glorification, as well as sharp warning to possibly restless citizens that the power of the state stands close at hand, ready to use its great potential for violence.


6. Corporations Shielded

Corporate power is protected - Typically, a segment of the business elite plays a major role in bringing fascists to national leadership, often from an unsavory obscurity. This marriage of big money and raw violence is often considered by historians to be the hallmark and backbone of fascism.

As these business-government-military interests meld, the significant threat of organized labor is clearly recognized. Labor unions and their support organizations are either co-opted successfully or ruthlessly suppressed and eliminated as soon as possible.


7. Corruption Unchecked

Rampant cronyism and corruption - Fascist states maintain power through this relatively small group of associates, mutually appointing each other to interlocking and rotating positions in government, business and the military.

With this degree of control, they make full use of both official secrecy and the ready threat of state violence to insulate themselves from any meaningful criticism. They are not accountable and are shielded from scrutiny in a way unthinkable in a democratic society.


8. Media Controlled

Controlled mass media - Sometimes the media are controlled directly by clumsy government functionaries. At other times, sympathetic corporate media insiders shape the themes indirectly, and therefor more skillfully. Image regularly trumps content as the "news" is presented breathlessly and with flashy stage effects.

A practiced formula of tenacious repetition brings even the most absurd lie into acceptance over time. By design, the very language itself and the coloration employed will push alternate views "out of the mainstream".

The terms of any remaining debate are narrowly defined to the state's advantage, making it easy to marginalize a truly differing perspective. Censorship and "self-censorship", especially in wartime, is common.


9. Rampant Sexism

Rampant sexism - Governments of fascist states tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Traditional gender roles are made even more rigid and exaggerated. Condemnation of abortion and a virulent homophobia are commonly built into broad policy.


10. Intellectual Bullying

Disdain for intellectuals - Fascist society tends to create an environment of extreme hostility to critical thought in general, and to academics in particular.

Ideologically driven "science" is elevated and lavishly funded, while any expression not in line with the state view is at first ignored, then challenged, then ridiculed and finally stamped out.

It is not uncommon for academics to be pressured to attack the work of their insufficiently patriotic peers. Writings are censored; teachers are fired and arrested. Free artistic expression in new works is openly attacked, and existing works deemed unpatriotic are often publicly destroyed.


11. Militarized Police

Obsession with crime and punishment - Fascist society is often willing to overlook police abuses and forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. Long jail sentences for clearly political offenses, torture and then assassination are at first uncomfortably tolerated, and then start to pile up to become the norm.

Often a national police force is given virtually unlimited power to snoop through the civilian population. Networks of surveillance and informers are employed, both for actual intelligence gathering and also as a means to keep neighbors and co-workers isolated and mistrustful of each other.


12. Elections Stolen

Fraudulent elections - In the disordered time as fascists are rising to power, the electoral arena becomes increasingly confusing, corrupted, and manipulated.

There is rising public cynicism and distrust over what are widely believed to be phony elections manipulated by moneyed influence, obvious media bias, smear campaigns, ballot tampering, judicial interference, intimidation, or outright assassination of potential opposition. Fascists in power have been known to use this disorder as the rationale to delay elections indefinitely.

[Fifth of Five]

109. Where did you get this list?

I would like to be able to use it, but need citation.

Thanks

[LiberalEconomist]

19. Oh, there were other facist regimes in the world at the time of

Musolini. Don't forget that Franco Spain was a facist state or that Juan Peron's Argentinia was facist. Nazism is an extreme form of facism, as it adds genocide to its corporatism.

[damntexdem]

20. Yeah, if you don't stop calling them that, ...

they'll send the Gestapo after you.

[Sparkman]

45. They will kick you out of your management job at the CIA/FBI/StateDept

There are VERY real cosequences for speaking truth to those in positions of power in your companies or gov. departments. Just ask the union organizers who were fired, harrassed and black listed. Just ask the outed gay and lesbian police officers or military corpsmen and women who were discharged dishonorably after years of loyal service. Just ask the teachers who refuse to assimilate in their mid-western small town school districts.

[offcenter]

21. Well, it has been proven

that the Bush family fortunes came from the Nazis.
The documents are in the U.S. National Archives (vesting orders from the U.S. Congress).

Here is the story in the nation's oldest newspaper about six Nazi businesses seized from the Bushes and others by the U.S. Congress under the Trading With the Enemy Act:
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi_2
Prescott Bush and W.A. Harriman were fronting for Fritz Thyssen, the German industrialist who funded the rise of the Nazi party with one million Reichsmarks and later told all in his memoir "I Paid Hitler".

And an interview with the author who ran for President and beat out all but one Republican in the New Hampshire primary:
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=10285&nav=&

In the interview, he discloses new evidence of Bush ties to I.G. Farben and the death camps.

[Kellanved]

93. Fritz Thyssen was a most interesting character

Sad that it took him too long to see what was happening.

[Karenina]

177. Indeed.

However your reference will F-L-Y over the heads of most in the house. Got me an Ampelmann t-shirt. Is THAT cool or what?

[Kellanved]

181. well, it was merely intended as a history fact regarding the ambivalence

of Thyssen's role.

Anyway, have you seen the new Ampelfrauen? (really, there are a few cities using them):

[Karenina]

183. Ausgezeichnet!!!

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

[nostamj]

22. is AMERICA about to ban WALT WHITMAN?

it is going to be open season on all things 'gay'. the Shepard travesty/apologia on 20/20. CNN's sudden interest in HIV/AIDS. Dobson claiming homosexual undertones in that shark cartoon...

if they can't put us into dentention camps or just exterminate us, they are for sure going to remove any positive images from the popular/corporate media.

it is truly a nightmare scenerio, which, as it happens, I've just started writing about for my blog....

Allen said that if his bill passes, novels with gay protagonists and college textbooks that suggest homosexuality is natural would have to be removed from library shelves and destroyed.

"I guess we dig a big hole and dump them in and bury them," he said.

A spokesman for the Montgomery-based Southern Poverty Law Center called the bill censorship.

"It sounds like Nazi book burning to me," said SPLC spokesman Mark Potok.

[Cleita]

25. Not only that in true Nazi fashion they are rewriting history.

Just on Al Franken show a Christmas gift idea of an American history book. Among the gems are that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, so you don't feel guilty ordering your Confederate sword; a whitewash of Joe McCarthy that they no doubt got from Ann Coulter; and many other events that were rewritten for freeper consumption.

[nostamj]

32. it's really stunning...

when you consider, when I consider HOW FAR things came since my sexual awakening 30+ years back. my apartment will suddenly be FILLED with banned literature.

no more productions of fag art like STREETCAR NAMED DESIRE, WHO'S AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOLF?, PRIVATE LIVES or WEST SIDE STORY?

[chicagiana]

90. Well, the civil war TECHNICALLY was NOT about slavery ...

The civil war was fought over a whole host of social and economic issues. ALL of them, were directly or indirectly derived from the practice of slavery.

So I suppose it's all a matter of how you say it ;-)

Now your right about the conservatives trying to re-spin the fascism involved in McCarthyism and the Japanese detention camps. Republican hacks don't work off a master script. Anne Coulter wouldn't last a week as an independent columnist. These creeps are part of a "master plan" to soften up public opinion for new witchunts and massive civil liberty violations under the pretense of "protecting America".

[Cleita]

104. They are already past masters at character assassination.

Now they are after Koffi Anan, I'll bet, because he said the invasion of Iraq was a war crime.

[m berst]

163. please

Where is this coming from? When I first started hearing it I thought it was a joke, but now I am answering it somewhere every other day.

My apologies to the other posters, but this one drives me nuts.

OK, here we go.

Virtually all of the Confederate leaders and politicians and officials thought that the Civil War was about slavery. The Confederate officers did. The slaves certainly did. The Confederate soldiers did. The writers and journalists and preachers did, bith North and South.

The people in the Republican party overwhelmingly thought that the war was about slavery. Most Democrats in the North and almost all Democrats in the South thought that the war was about slavery. The governments and the people in England and France, and in the other European countries thought that the war was about slavery.

The rank and file Union soldiers, although they originally were more likely to see the war as being about Union, came to see it as being about slavery.

The overwhelming majority of the thousands of historians and researchers about the Civil War think that it was about slavery.

Where is this "it wasn't about slavery" idea coming from? Did Limbaugh say that or something?

[Moloch]

203. Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!

I hate it when people say that the civil war was not about slavery!

It was!

This cannot be denied!

[Melodybe]

33. Don't forget the King James Bible

It has homosexual characters and was commissioned by a man who was flamingly gay!

They used to call him Queen James in joyly old England.

[nostamj]

36. i would expect them to ban ALL british authors

on the PRESUMPTION of homosexuality. wouldn't you?

[Touchdown]

127. It would actually be all Bibles banned.

Since the soon to be King David (a BIG hero and protagonist) was being boinked by Jonathan, King Saul's son.

[Bucky]

24. Sorry, but saying they're nazis makes you look like a pampered brat

No offense intended, but the casual use of the N word (well, that N-word anyway) devalues the horror that was Nazi Germany, overvalues the malevolence of the Bushies, ignores the tremendous ability of our system of government to resist the evil the Bush administration tries to do, and suggests you don't know your history very well.

There's a huge difference between saying something looks like a nazi book burning (as the linked article states) and calling someone an actual Nazi. I hate seeing that word stripped of its horror. Bad as the war and the corruption of the Bushies is, it ain't nothing compared to the real Nazis. But I hate even more the childish name calling that paints a veneer of immaturity on those of us who want to seriously stop Bush's moronic policies rather than just whine about them.

[offcenter]

26. I don't care what it makes me look like.

I will not be a "good German" when it all comes down.

[Bucky]

28. I know you don't care. That's the problem!

I'd rather you be a "good American" and try to keep it from all coming down.

[offcenter]

35. Silence = Death

Please define what it means to be a good American.

[Djinn]

200. in the early 30's

Nazism looked pretty good to most Germans - it certainly didn't look genocidal, the lead up to genocide included deatures that are recognisible in 21st century America.

Is the Bush admin comparable to what the Nazi's did in totality - no.
Is the Bush admin comparable to the EARLY Nazi years - absolutely.

I don't understand how anyone can have a knowledge of the early years of German facism and say there is no comparison.

[Cleita]

29. The truth shall make you free.

Torture of prisoners.

Killing of an ethnic group of people, this time the Sunnis, with the use of napalm and depleted uranium, a permanent solution.

Keeping troops in a battle zone when they are losing. (Think Stalingrad.) It was just announced that tours of duty have been extended for troops in Iraq who were scheduled to come home.

Need I go on?

This is not fascism in the dictionary sense but out and out Nazism.

[ilife]

39. calling them FASCIST shows your paying ATTENTION

It Can't Happen Here
by
Sinclair Lewis
http://new.globalfreepress.com/happen

psst... pass the word ;->

[Beetwasher]

41. Bullshit, Stopping Fascists HONORS The Memory Of The Dead

by their hands in the past. Never again. Labelling them as fascists and comparing them to Nazi's is the first step in acknowledging what they are and what they are really about.

[kayell]

53. I have a feeling that if you were an Iraqi, you wouldn't undervalue

the malevolence of the Bushies quite so.

Millions of German Jews stayed in place because their system of government and civilized culture would be totally able to resist the evil that the Nazis would try to do. If they had been able to imagine what was coming, perhaps they could have stopped it or fled to safety. But I'm sure they too had plenty of people to tell them they were being immature whiners whenever they started to get a bit nervous about the brownshirts.

[Raskolnik]

57. Could not agree more.

Very well put. Thanks.

I think a lot of people are under the impression that "Nazi" is a synonym for "really bad". Unfortunately, that does nothing but strip the word of its meaning as well as make us look silly.

[Beetwasher]

64. I Think Some People Are Under The Impression

That the criminals in charge of this country are not capable of committing egregious vile crimes much like the Nazi's. There's nothing wrong w/ comparing fascists w/ other fascists including the Nazi's. It's called acknowledging what they are and what they intend, it's the first step to doing something about it.

Only fools and madmen do not learn from history. And those that don't learn or pay attention are doomed to repeat it.

I don't give a fuck if I look silly to you. I will call it as I see it.

There were lot's of people like you in Germany in the 1930's. They were enablers, just like you. Ignore the warning signs at your own peril.

[Raskolnik]

72. "I don't give a fuck if I look silly"

Well then that really sums it up, doesn't it?

If you don't care if your arguments are silly, then how in the hell do you hope to convince anyone that our positions are better than theirs?

And since you obviously don't intend to be civil to me, I'll point out when you use "Nazi" and "fascists" interchangeably, it betrays your lack of knowledge about the subject.

You can make a *very* good argument that we are seeing the early stages of a fascist movement in this country. If that's your point, then make it. But if you just want to yell "NAZI"! to get attention, you don't accomplish much.

[Beetwasher]

75. Uh , No Einstein

I don't use fascist and Nazi interchangeably.

Read the title of my post, it's about COMPARING the fascist gov't entrenching itself here to Nazi's, who were also fascists. Comparing one fascist to another fascist (Nazi's) is perfectly valid. Nazi's happen to be the most famous fascists and the current American fascists have a lot in common w/ them. Too bad you don't see it. Oh, and reading comprehension might help in your case too. Lucky for us (or not) we have the Nazi's to refer to in the past so we can see (those of use who pay attention) what's most likely coming.

I could give a fuck if you or anyone else whines that it's too harsh to compare these current fascists w/ the Nazi fascists. I despise ALL fascists and they certainly ALL share similar traits and can be compared to eachother.

To tell you the truth, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone of anything. Either you get it or you don't. Most enablers don't and never will get it until it touches them personally. Then they come whining about it when it's too late, or worse, they never see what's coming and can't whine about anything anymore.

[Raskolnik]

76. "I'm not trying to convince you or anyone of anything"

Then I guess that means we're done here.

Instead of making a rational case as to the specific reasons you think this adminstration needs to be compared to Nazis, you obviously think just saying "Nazi"! makes your case for you. It doesn't.

If you have some specific points to argue, then I would be glad to listen.

[Beetwasher]

82. Why Waste My Time With You?

Enablers don't care how much evidence is presented, and I suspect nothing would convince you. I guess destroying books w/ evil gay people in them is not an eerily familiar thing to you? Oh, I know, it's not EXACTLY like the Nazi's so it's ridiculous to COMPARE that behavior to them (and/or other fascists). Maybe if Bush had a little mustache and started wearing a swastika? That's the sort of evidence you're asking for I guess. Or maybe, like I said (or implied through sarcasm) originally, we should wait until he gasses 6 million people FIRST and then we can make the comparisons. How idiotic.

If you're too lazy, blind or ignornant then no one can help you and I could care less.

[Raskolnik]

83. I don't think asking for actual facts is ridiculous, but evidently you do

Lets talk about book burning then. Does every person that has burned books deserve the label of "Nazi"?

[Beetwasher]

96. Show Me Where I Labelled Them As Nazi

I'm COMPARING them to Nazi's. You do know the difference, don't you? Or are you going to start parsing bullshit semantics? Talk about facts. You use the word label and compare interchangeably. :eyes:

Yes, everyone who burns books can be compared to the Nazi's AND fascists in general as far as I'm concerned.

[Raskolnik]

103. Still too broad.

You are speaking so broadly that your comparisons don't really mean much. Nazis burned books, but so did Communists, and so did the Ayatollah's followers. Why not compare the current administration to them?

[Beetwasher]

107. I Do

There most certainly are similarities there too, however, I see more w/ the Nazi's.

I don't think you're really interested in facts, I think you're only interested in denying anything and everything that would be presented to you, so why should I bother?

But here goes, here's few more facts for the grist mill:

Both used a national tragedy for their political gain (Reichstag 9/11)
Both used that tragedy to advance imperialistic wars (Poland/Iraq)
Both use massive propoganda and hate speech to dehumanize and label opponents as traitors (undeniable as far as I'm concerned)
Book burning, melding of church and state, over the top religious symbolism, radical patriotism and nationalism.
Melding of corporations and the state
Marginalization and dehumanization of minorities, gays, liberals etc.
Stripping certain groups of rights (gays mostly, and disenfranchised African American voters)

And on and on and on.

You can wait until they fire up the ovens, personally, I've seen enough already.

[Raskolnik]

120. Because I beg you for facts, I must not be interested?

Again, I would argue that the list you made could be applied to dozens of the worst political groups in the world. My problem with your Nazi comparison is that its kind of lazy to pick the Nazis just because they are the worst.

I think a much closer comparison can be made between the current administration and the classical fascism that rose in Italy during the 30's. (The combination of corporate power with government power particularly)

But because its not as sexy to call someone a classical Italian fascist as it is to call them a Nazi, people go with the latter.


And just to nit-pick..."melding of church and state, over the top religious symbolism" was absoltely NOT a hallmark of Naziism. They used a unique blend of paganism and nationalism that left very little room for what we would consider "religion".

[Beetwasher]

122. Same Shit Different Asshole

There's enough fascism evident to compare them to Nazi's AND Italian fascists, but the Nazi's comparisons are perfectly appropriate. The Nazi's were the worst because they had the biggest military and economy and could therefore do the most damage...and they did. Sound familiar?

Gee, you nitpick? Whoda thunk it. Why am I not surprised? There was plenty of attention to religious symbolism and mysticism used by the Nazi's. They did it a bit differently than is being done by the current fascists, but it was most definitely utilized by them.

[Raskolnik]

124. Just saying it doesn't make it so...

Repeating ad nauseum that there are enough unique comparisons between Nazis and the administration doesn't make your argument.

As I pointed out, the list you made could be applied to literally dozens of very bad groups around the world, but you choose Nazis because it packs the most emotion. Instead of making a more accurate comparison to Italian fascists, you go with the much less applicable analogies. I think that is lazy.

And if you want to get wonky, I'll argue about W's use of religion vs the Nazi's views on religion all damn day. Both are fucked up in a major way, but they are very, very different in their roots and their application.

[Beetwasher]

130. I Thought So

Waste of time. So, because the list I made can be applied to lot's of fascists means I can't/shouldn't compare them to Nazi's???? That's idiotic. The Nazi's were fascists. The comparison is appropriate to them AND all other fascists as well.

The only lazy one is you, who says it's more appropriate to ONLY compare them to Italian fascist. That's lazy and pathetic and quite frankly, ignorant. OK Einstein, why is THAT? Where's your list Chester? Is it true because YOU said so? :eyes:

Yes, I'm sure you would like to derail the subject to a quibble about the difference between the Nazi's use of religion and religious symbolism and Bushcos use. Yes, you'll quibble over those minor details and say "See, there NOT Nazi's because they don't use religion EXACTLY the same way! Nya nya!" Pathetic. Truly pathetic and transparent.

[Raskolnik]

139. Yikes.

I believe that the current administration is much more like the Italian fascists in the 30's than to the Nazis. I gave you the example of their views on the merger of corporate and government power, which I still believe is the best and most important. The Nazis did not have quite the same views, and this difference alone would be enough to make the distinction.

I'm arguing for a more precise use of historical comparisons that doesn't rely as much on emotion, and more on actual similarities.

And by the way, do you need to be so unpleasant with me? I disagree with you on this point, but I at least expect you to refrain from the tone in your last post. I don't think you're "pathetic" for disagreeing with me, I just think you are wrong on this particular point. If you can't be more civil than your last post, then just don't bother to post to me any more. Thanks in advance.

[Beetwasher]

142. I Gave You A List Of Some Very Specific Events

That mirror events in Nazi Germany.

You give me one vague example about differences of "views" on the merger of corporate and government power. BOTH Nazi's and Italian Fascists merged corporate and gov't power and SO do the New American Fascists.

My specific list vs. your vague example and you say you are arguing for more precise historical comparisons??? LOL! OK, whatever you say Chester! :eyes:

[Forkboy]

143. LMAO

[Karenina]

184. Really!

Why bother? :silly:

[Raskolnik]

149. I apologize.

I didn't realize that disagreeing with you made me a fascist enabler.

I don't think you're really discussing this in good faith any longer, so we probably have come to the end.

[Beetwasher]

151. LOL! Yes, Run Away

I'm discussing in good faith and waiting for your specific examples of how Italian fascism is more appropriate than Nazi fascism to use as a comparison. Somehow, I don't think it's forthcoming, what a surprise.

How typical "Mommy, the man is being mean to me! Wahhhh! I'm not playing with you anymore! Nya!"

You don't like my tone? Welcome to the internet Chester. Asking you to back up your bullshit is a common occurrence round about these parts.

Disagreeing w/ me doesn't make you a fascist enabler. Yet another bullshit strawman tactic. What makes you fascist enabler is denying fascism's existence and foothold and claiming anyone who draws attention to it is crazy. That makes you an enabler.

[Raskolnik]

154. "Show Me Where I Labelled Them As Nazi"

Ummm, doesn't this count?

"Nope, Nazi Is Just Fine W/ Me Actually"

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Beetwasher]

156. Ahh, Intellectual Dishonestly On Display For Everyone To See

Context context context. Look up the word COMPARISON, read the post I was responding to and then take a class on reading comprehension. How pathetic.

[chicagiana]

95. They would if they could ..

... but they still aren't strong enough to set up the "whole package", the authoritarian faux christian state that they want so much. They tested "dissapearing" on Jose Pedilla, but the current court would not allow it. They are JUST ONE justice away from making it happen!!!!

Their new "mental health" bill will double as a way to identify independent thinkers and medicate them into docile syncophantic acceptance of "the leader".

[Karenina]

185. BINGO!

We have a WINNER! :toast: WELCOME to DU, Du!!!!

[bobbyboucher]

118. You're the silly one. Really, really silly.

Bushco and his allies are fascists. To be quite honest, I cannot see the line that separates you from them, but that's just me.

If someone happens to use the term Nazi, while you might equate that with only, and I'll say it again, ONLY the final days of the Third Reich and the Holocaust, then that is your shortsightedness, not just their overstating for effect.

One more thing, you are not part of "us", so stop saying it.

[Raskolnik]

132. I wasn't aware of your elevation

to arbiter of who gets to be on the side against Bush and who doesn't, but if I provise to agree with you 100%, does that get me back in?

"I cannot see the line that separates you from them, but that's just me"

That's lovely. I disagree with the (what I consider to be) imprecise and casual use of the word "Nazi", so I must be the same as Bush?

[chicagiana]

92. All the "resistors" ...

All those natural "resistors" are currently being purged from government agencies. The supreme court is run by a nazi. And the next chief justice will likely be a micro-brained fascist lap dog.

[m berst]

165. you are missing the point

You compare the wrong things. We have the benefit of hindsight when you look at the Nazi era in Germany. The question is not is this regime similar to the Nazi regime as seen post 1945, the question is do things here resemble Germany in the 1930's?

The only was to refute your statements would be to wait until any possible catastrophe plays out, and then look back after it is too late and say "oh, yeah, I guess I shoulda seen it coming."

Nazi-ism isn't about a dry recitation of bad deeds when tabulated after the killing stops. Nazi-ism is about a social dynamic, a set of ideas, a way of organizing a government and a society, and a mood in the population - all of which can lead to horrible carnage and destruction.

By your logic, the site of a tornado on the horizon would be no cause to take shelter, because one could easily look around and see that there were no houses destroyed.

[Karenina]

182. I say, NEVER AGAIN

and see the HORROR is HERE AGAIN. Your post reveals a childish ostrich stance, I'm so sorry. Those who use the past to refuse to recognize what is occurring NOW are just dead weight.

[R3dD0g]

27. They were Nazis and Fascists before they killed the 6 M Jews.

Just because the * administration hasn't reached that number doesn't diminish one iota their resemblance to Fascists. From the Wikipedia

The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that

exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual,
uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and
espouses nationalism and sometimes racism or ethnic nationalism.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. The problem with calling the Busheviks "Nazis" is that

your average person thinks of Nazis ONLY in terms of the Holocaust. That's why it seems overblown.

I will readily grant that the Busheviks are fascists, but the Nazis were merely a subset of fascists, followers of a political style that has prevailed in Italy, Spain, Portugal, and much of Latin America, as well as in parts of Eastern Europe before World War II. Fascism is marked by political repression of dissidents while letting compliant people go about their business, extreme nationalism and militarism, and dominance by big business interests.

[Beetwasher]

42. Comparing them To Nazi's and other Fascists in General

is perfectly valid. No, they are not identical, but so what? Should I wait until they are? That's the point.

[Karenina]

186. NEW! IMPROVED!!

NAZIS-PLUS!!!! Christian Reconstructionists... Moral Values... Krieg ohne ende, Ahhhhhmen (Ahhhhmed, you better watch yo' but buddy)! No nassy pix. No doubt sand-niggers can't be lef alone runnin'WILD in da damn streets. New effective formula.
KILL 'EM ALL!!!

[PROGRESSIVE1]

31. Republicans are Facsists!

[Raskolnik]

58. Who can argue with logic like that?

You make a very persuasive argument.

Wait..not you don't. Just because name-calling is easier than making a rational point doesn't mean its better.

[Forkboy]

66. lol

I'm shocked you're still defending repubs here.

Wait...no I'm not.

[Raskolnik]

68. Your definition of "defend" isn't really the same as mine.

I would rather make productive efforts to stop what is probably the most harmful administration in the history of the country.

Calling names (and in particular, that name) really does nothing to accomplish that. In fact, it impedes it.

It is flattering that you follow me around and comment on my posts without really disputing them, however. So thanks.

[Forkboy]

77. Dont flatter yourself

it would be both wrong and comical.I haven't even seen you here on DU for months (ahhh,the good ole days).

[Raskolnik]

78. Do you have something to add to the discussion?

Would you like to tell me how calling Republicans "Nazis" is either accurate or helpful?

[Forkboy]

79. I've added what I wanted

:hi:

[Raskolnik]

81. Just once

I'd like it if you made an argument instead of just attacking me.

A guy can wish.

[Forkboy]

86. It's good to have goals

[Raskolnik]

91. Not much to ask.

Pleas explain to me why (or if) you feel that asking for a more precise definition for this administration than just "Nazi" is akin to defending them.

I would like to hear your reasoning.

[Beetwasher]

99. Too Bad That's a Bullshit Strawman

Since no one is DEFINING this admin. as Nazi's but we ARE COMPARING them to Nazi's. There's a difference that even a feeble mind can grasp.

[Forkboy]

105. It's just a pattern one notices

What precise definition would you ascribe to this administration?

[Raskolnik]

108. Creeping fascism.

There, do you see that it is possible to actually ANSWER a question instead of trying to be the coolest guy in the room?

Now, do you disagree with my definition?

[Forkboy]

111. I'll never be the coolest guy anywhere and dont try to be

So,fascists would be correct then?

[Raskolnik]

121. No, that wouldn't be correct.

I think that there is a form of creeping fascism in this country that scares the hell out of me. I do not think that just applying the label "fascists" to the current administration is accurate or useful. Do you disagree with that?

Please try answering the question. Just this once. Don't reply with another question, don't be coy, and don't just accuse me of defending Republicans. Just try having a discussion.

[Forkboy]

123. Creeping fascism without being fascist

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight :eyes:

[Raskolnik]

128. Redux

Please try answering the question. Just this once. Don't reply with another question, don't be coy, and don't just accuse me of defending Republicans. Just try having a discussion.

[Forkboy]

131. I did answer it

deal

[Raskolnik]

134. nope, you didn't

I think that there is a form of creeping fascism in this country that scares the hell out of me. I do not think that just applying the label "fascists" to the current administration is accurate or useful. Do you disagree with that?

Please. I'm begging you. Try to answer a direct question.

[Forkboy]

138. If you reread my reply you'll see that there lies your answer within

re; Do you disagree with that?

And please,dont beg...it's so unbecoming :eyes:

[Raskolnik]

141. Sigh.

Please don't post to me any more if this is all you have to offer.

If you want to discuss something, fine. If not, don't bother.

[Forkboy]

146. I'll post where I see fit...use ignore if you have a problem with that

Dont blame me because you can't figure the answer out :silly:

[m berst]

166. fascism can't "creep"....

... without some creeps who are fascists trying to make it creep. Of course.

[noiretextatique]

225. LMAO..."budding facists?"

beginning facists? pre-fascist fascists? post-republican fascists? neo-fascists? still just facists, huh?

[Forkboy]

125. Here's another thread you'll love

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1026076

I look forward to seeing you there.

[Forkboy]

133. And another one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1402263

Hope you dont have any plans for tonight :shrug:

[Touchdown]

148. Fascism always creeps. That's why it's successful

...in enslaving the unsuspecting societies that it enters. The Nazis didn't become what they were in 1944 instantly in 1933. It was systematic. It's a pattern that can be found in all fascistic states. A little here, a little there, and before you know it, you're enslaved to fascism.

Fascism, historically has always been described as a great chamelion. There will never be another power structure with mass influence that will look exactly like The Third Reich. It would be recognized instantly by all the masses before it can break down their resistance. Fascism always appears new, and unique to every society that it infects, and this one is no exception. American/Bush fascism will not, on the surface, resemble any other fascist state, or even the Spanish Inquisition, that came before it, but the patterns are recognizeable, the techniques are easily seen, if one takes the time to understand what is going on. As far as genocide is concerned, who knows how many Bush will have killed 12 years from now, when he is still in power (which is entirely possible).

[Raskolnik]

152. Certainly agree with most of that.

Its the patterns that disturb me as well.

[Djinn]

204. several people have posted several reasons

why it's both accurate and helpful.

Although there are many similarities between this lot and the early days of German fascism you do know that you can make comparisons between two completely different things as well right?

[Cats Against Frist]

113. To call someone a "fascist" isn't "name calling," if it's true

it's simply nomenclature. They may not be Nazis -- but they ARE fascists -- and you're practically doing their work for them. It's PART OF THEIR STRATEGY to suggest that it's "outrageous" for us to call them "fascists," -- therefore, they will never publically be called such and those who point out their fascism won't be believed. It's part of their "style-over-substance" logical fallacy that they like to peddle: if we call them "fascists" it must mean we're "wild-eyed, angry lunatics."

This is true, only, however, if you consider "fascist" an empty insult, rather than a distinct, scholarly political designation or ideology. By going along with their little "ruse" that to use the word fascism strips the word "fascism" of all meaning, you are doing their work for them. It would suit them just fine to NOT have a recognizable word to be associated with -- they're all about re-writing reality (which is a fascist AND a Nazi tendency). I like to call them "History's Actors," after the Suskind article -- but that's just me.

Right this second, I'm calm as fuck. BP 117/68 and a pulse rate of 71. And I have a degree in political science. And I say they're fascists.

[Forkboy]

116. What a great post

[Beetwasher]

119. Right, I LABEL Them Fascists and COMPARE them to Nazi's

Deniars would have you believe I'm labeling them Nazi's. It's intellectual dishonest but it enables them to dismiss the comparison because these particular fascists have yet to murder 6 million people. They get to live in their littel fantasy world where everything will eventually be ok because these fascists aren't exactly like the Nazi's...yet.

[bobbyboucher]

126. Nicely said. You are right on the money with regard

to aiding and abetting.

A fascist is a fascist is a fascist.

[Raskolnik]

129. "They may not be Nazis"

How dare you say that!

I believe I agree with you that calling someone a fascist is not name-calling per se. On this thread, however, it is used interchangeably with "nazi" and used without any real examination of its meaning.

That's just lazy in my opinion.

[Beetwasher]

135. Bullshit Dishonest Claim

YOU have yet to show where fascist and Nazi has been used interchangeably.

You are dishonestly claiming I label them Nazi's so you can dismiss my COMPARISON of them to Nazis. Pathetic and transparent strawman bullshit used by fascist enablers.

[Forkboy]

147. He didn't like us picking on Reagan when he died either

go figure :shrug:

[Cats Against Frist]

159. A-ha -- another GOP psy op

Technically, it's the "style-over-substance" fallacy -- I call it the "GOP Rules of Discourse" fallacy -- and YES, other Goppers tried to use it on the occasion of Reagan's death -- "How dare you insult him when he's just died and his family is greiving," or simply a blanket, "it is unkind to speak ill of the dead."

It's also unpatriotic to speak out against our president.
It's "outrageous" to call fascists fascists.
You can't talk bad about Reagan because he died.
If you yell or otherwise show emotion, you're "wild eyed."
John Kerry is a "bad, bad man" for speaking about Mary Cheney.

Why do people fall for their bullshit? What kind of idiot do you have to be?

[Djinn]

205. or suggesting US soldiers are capable of war crimes

[Forkboy]

210. Do we sense a pattern forming?

:)

[Karenina]

188. Great post CAF!

Succint, to the point. THEY ARE FASCISTS.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

202. I have a Masters in History and that is the best analysis I've read

thus far. :toast:

An appropriate quote from "The Ususal Suspects":

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making the world believe that he didn't exist.

[Dark]

34. Why is it that the south constantly complains that we liberals

always deride them as stupid and redneck, and then go and do stuff like this?

Dear South,

Maybe if you would stop challenging the theory of evolution we would treat your region with some respect. But, as it is, Jesusland is a sad practical joke on America.

[bvar22]

49. Dear Dark,

The SOUTH didn't "do something like this".

An individual living in the SOUTH did this!

[kayell]

56. Dear Dark, try to rise above bigoted stereotypes.

You're giving liberals (some of whom live in the South) a bad name.

[VaYallaDawg]

144. Right on, Kayell.

Big ole southern liberal here - stereotyping people based on generalizations (geography, race, religion, you name it) doesn't do anybody any good. I think there's another whole political ideology that has risen to power on just that kind of fuel.

[Dark]

191. Dear Kayell,

Don't assume that just because someone says anything you disagree with that they are a bigot. The south, whether you like it or not, is the region that has challenged the major scientific advances. The south is THE regressive region of America.

Again, I say to southerners, whether liberal or conservative, if you want us, the liberals and rest of the world, to stop thinking of your region as a bunch of backward reactionaries, stop challenging science. Stop trying to put the ten commandments in every public building still standing. Stop fighting tooth and nail any remotely controversial social legislation.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

220. Hmmm. And which region continues to promote eugenics more so...

...than any other region of the U. S.?

Hint: Where did the Bush family originate in the U. S.?

Stop generalizing...you make yourself look like an idiot.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

219. And where did the Bush family originate? Hint: It wasn't the South...

During the late 1920s and early 1930s, the largest KKK contingent was located in Illinois...the last time I looked at a map, Illinois is located in the Midwest.

Maybe if people from the Northeast would stop promoting eugenics we could treat that region with respect.

IMHO, people who continue to make ignorant comments like yours are a "sad practical joke on America".

[ilife]

37. springtime for the emperor

the imperial japanese weren't 'nazis' either but they certainly were FASCIST as is our current regime.

It Can't Happen Here
by
Sinclair Lewis
http://new.globalfreepress.com/happen

psst... pass the word ;->

[Rose Siding]

43. This will upset the Veep's wife

http://www.livejournal.com/users/lynnecheney/

[Toby109]

44. It's Fascism: American Style!

In this hurly-burly, topsy turvy world who can find time for world domination? Why, its our very own U.S. of A.! Watch the hi-jinks as America the Bee-yuuu-tee-full attempts to secure its economic interests through preemption and occupation. See the bloody massacres that are ordained by God himself. Enjoy all this and much, much more every week night at 6 and 11.

[Skidmore]

46. Facism is an ideology, not a body count. Unfortunately, it is often

accompanied by a body count.

[Beetwasher]

47. IN CASE YOU CAN'T TELL (and apparently some can't) I Was Being Sarcastic

Yeesh...Whoosh! Head meet sarcasm please...

[ilife]

59. D'oh!

had me goin - lol

:hi:

[seabeyond]

50. you want us to wait til 6 million dead and then speak up

wouldnt it have been kinda nice if on jew 1 someone spoke up, instead of waiting 6 million

whether it reaches that number or not, doesnt mean the word fascist cannot be used any longer. what is happeningg in this country fits the difinition. even my learned 9 year old can see

[Beetwasher]

52. *sigh* Again

Whoosh! Head, meet sarcasm please...

[tnlefty]

51. I'm sorry, but I think that you are mistaken. While I was at the car

dealer's earlier, I heard Bush addressing the Canadians in Halifax. I heard him state that "we value every single human life", and how we're just wanting to bring peace to Iraq and the ME. Nowhere during his address did he mention one single instance of an innocent Iraqi getting killed or tortured, or the military using gawdawful weapons on the civilian population in Iraq...so I'm sure you're just making an innocent mistake.

After the second shot of second-term kool-aid the above gets much easier to type.

[Done]

54. I don't believe * will execute 6 million Jews

...But I am truly afraid that he's going to start some kind of Armageddon to bring on the rapture, and he's going to kill billions. This will make * worse than Hitler.

[Beetwasher]

55. Replace Jew W/ Muslim and You Get The Picture

Lot's of them to annihilate and don't think it's not on their agenda, they've already started...

[kayell]

60. Well, Muslims ya know....not quite the same

gonna take at least 12 million or so before they're Nazis. Besides, the world's population is much larger, it might be more like 25 or 30 million in 2004 body counts before they're REALLY Nazis.




THIS IS SARCASM (for the sarcastically impaired)

[offcenter]

87. Sure would be a lot easier

to control the oil if their lands were depopulated.
George's ancestors back to Herbert Walker were involved in eugenics.
In fact, their friends started Planned Parenthood because they thought mass sterilization was a good idea.

[democracy eh]

61. the terms fascist and Nazi need to be divorced

Nazi is equated with "really, really, really, bad people", to quote George H.W. - "Saddam Hussein is Hitler reborn"

from a language perspective Nazi is Way overused and has lost meaning

now fascism on the other hand should be utilized, as this thread indicates, logical arguments and comparisons are possible with that word without getting into the emotive qualities of Nazi

[chicagiana]

97. GW Bush is Hitler Reborn!!!!! *

[Raskolnik]

106. EXACTLY

Nazi gets used because it makes people flinch. No one wants to have a boring discussion about the nature of fascism when throwing around invective is easier. That way, if anyone disagrees with you, it automatically means they are defending the administration. Its a neat trick.

[Beetwasher]

115. No, Actually, The Neat Trick Is Saying That Comparing Is Labelling

And it's intellectually dishonest. Then you get to say "you're crazy because they haven't killed 6 million jews yet so they CAN'T be Nazi's!"

[maveric]

62. Hitler didnt start his killing till 1938. Five years after he took power.

Give these goosestepping thugs time and the genocidal bodycount will climb.

[Done]

63. Oh my God, were almost to year number 5!

[fshrink]

67. You'd settle for "neo-nazis"?

Because the national-socialist principles, which are *not* limited to the blaming of the jews, communists, free-masons, gypsies, homosexuals, non-christians, seem to be pretty consistent with what we hear.

[Beetwasher]

71. Nope, Nazi Is Just Fine W/ Me Actually

Sarcasm, meet brain...Yikes! I thought I did a lot to make it clear I was being sarcastic....:shrug:

[DS1]

69. How about 4 and a half million?

A Nazi is a Nazi, whether she or he gassed any Jews or not.

[Beetwasher]

70. *sigh* Yet Again

Sarcasm anyone? Helloooooooooooooo???

[pauldp]

73. Oh well, at least you started a spirited discussion

Even if everyone did miss the original tongue in cheek.

[DS1]

74. If this hadn't been the hundredth time I'd seen a thread like this, I

might have picked up on the sarcasm :shrug:

I've been around too long, my mistake.

[chicagiana]

80. They were Nazis BEFORE they murdered 6 million jews ...

There are Nazis in the hills of Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. They haven't murdered millions of jews either.

In terms of what they are doing ... they ARE Nazis!!!! The mass genocide (of gays and non-christians) is down the line once they consolidate their power!!!

[amazona]

88. so we should wait for 6 million Arabs to be killed?

I'm sorry, I'm not willing to wait that long before I speak up. Sheesh. One person murdered for profit is too many.

[Beetwasher]

98. Another Heady *sigh* From Me

When did sarcasm (I really thought it was clear in my post) become an alien concept here? :shrug:

[offcenter]

89. Beetwasher is not a Nazi!

So stop saying that! ;)

(sarcasm is undetectable on them internets without the little winky thing)

[Beetwasher]

100. Actually, I Like This One For Sarcasm:

:eyes:

I always tend to think of that as the sarcasm emoticon.

[radar]

94. ORCINUS' blog has some articles...

...Regarding "The Rise of Pseudo Fascism"
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/

Part 1: The Morphing of the Conservative Movement
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_09_19_dneiwert_archive.html#109028353137888956
Part 2: The Architecture of Fascism
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_09_26_dneiwert_archive.html#109563628314780505
Part 3: The Pseudo-Fascist Campaign
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_10_03_dneiwert_archive.html#109596147171278590
Part 4: The Apocalyptic One-Party State
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_10_10_dneiwert_archive.html#109694976530359103
Part 5: Warfare By Other Means
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_10_17_dneiwert_archive.html#109755467135245579
Part 6: Breaking Down the Barriers
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_10_24_dneiwert_archive.html#109858062597237163
Part 7 : It Can Happen Here
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004/10/rise-of-pseudo-fascism.html

[offcenter]

101. Try this

Holy cats! Dave Emory is all over the Nazis and al Quaeda (the Muslim Brotherhood) dating back to Martin Bormann.

http://wfmu.org/playlists/DX

[Kitka]

102. PEOPLE! THE OP WAS BEING SARCASTIC!

The whole point is that those that say it’s hysterical to call some conservatives Facists simply because they haven’t reached the point of murdering millions of Jews is disingenuous. The Nazis started out by banning books, restricting speech, etc. This kind of proposed law DOES smack of early Nazi facism. That’s the point. To ignore that facism starts small is dangerous.

[bvar22]

110. I have PROOF...PROOF I tell ya. The Repubs are NAZIs

This is an unretouched, unfotoshopped picture of bush* at the latest secret republican rally:




SEE! PROOF!!!!




Well, maybe this pic was "shopped" just a little.

[Karenina]

190. Excellent!

:toast:

[Swamp Rat]

112. Right! He's an alien lizard!

Bush is not Hitler, so stop saying that!
Bush is not Hitler, so stop saying that!
Bush is not Hitler, so stop saying that!

- Bob Boudelang

[cyberpj]

117. What's the statute of limitations on time? can we include native americans

Let's start at the beginning of our quest for "freedom".

And just who's we took since we got here.


All of us.

Everywhere.



It's been said

There is no Them just Us.

[spanone]

136. Not Nazis just a bunch of arrogant bigoted, money grabbing fuckers.

[Raskolnik]

140. Be careful

That kind of talk is seen as defending Bush around here.

Fairly warned, by thee, says I...

[Beetwasher]

145. How's the View From That Cross?

Please show me an example of someone accusing you of defending Bush.

I said you're enabling fascist. That's much different than defending them. But I expect you know that and that this claim is yet another of your intellectually dishonest tactics.

[Raskolnik]

150. "Please show me an example"

"I'm shocked you're still defending repubs here"

Point made.

[Beetwasher]

153. One Person

Saying you defend "Repubs" is not an example of someone claiming you defend Bush.

What was that point again? Oh, that's right, it's your intellectual dishonesty. There it is, on display again.

[Raskolnik]

155. Man, you need to relax.

I'm intellectually dishonest because I said something and then backed it up? That doesn't seem right.

Why do you think this is personal, by the way? Have I made these kinds of personal remarks about you? Or did I run over your dog?

[Beetwasher]

158. Yes, You've Made It Personal By Taking Things Out Of Context

and being intellectually dishonest.

I'm just calling you on your bullshit. When you claim I'm labelling Bushco. "Nazi's" when I'm COMPARING them to Nazi's, it's a deliberate twisting of what I'm saying for your own purposes. You twisting my words is bullshit and I take it personally. You don't like it, don't be full of shit.

[Raskolnik]

160. I understand

that you are "comparing" and not "labeling", ok? So take a deep breath.

I am taking the position that your comparison is not the best that can be made under the circumstances, and actually muddies the waters. Because "Nazi" is such an emotionally charged word, it gets used with far too much imprecision for my tastes.

I don't think you are a bad person for misunderstanding me. I just think that when you make the Nazi comparison, you are falling into an easy trap that others have made before you and others will make after you. That doesn't make me a fascist enabler, and it doesn't make me a Bush supporter. It makes me someone that thinks words should keep their meaning.

I also think that calling me names doesn't really make your case all that well, but that might just be me.

[Beetwasher]

162. You Give Way To Much Import Some Anonymous Poster On The Internet

Who the fuck cares what I think?

You think I'm being imprecise and yet I gave you very specific list that you called too vague (sic). I asked you for your list and you give me one vague example but then go on to say you want precision. :shrug:

I'm not redefining the word Nazi. The word keeps it's meaning and it's impact and it IS used in it's proper context when I'm comparing current fascists to past fascists who they resemble (the Nazi's, among others). There are many aspects of the reign of the New American Fascists that do in fact seem eerily familiar to the Nazi's of old (and yes, specifically the Nazi's as opposed to Mussolloni). I am noting them. If you have a problem w/ that, too bad. I am honoring the dead (including my relatives) who died at their hands by making sure (or trying) something like that never happens again. Unfortunately, we are well on our way to that dark place.

People like you who have a problem with people like me who are making comparisons between fasists past and present do part of the fascists job for them. Marginalizing people who call fascists fascists is exactly what the fascists want. Marginalizing people who compare fascists to Nazi's when the comparisons are there is also exactly what they want. Let's all pretend these are some new, kindler, gentler fascists who really won't be that bad. Sorry if you don't like it, but that makes you enabler.

[Raskolnik]

164. See, there's the problem..

you started out fine, but you just had to end by calling me a fascist enabler. Guess what? That's stupid and immature, ok? Knock it off.

I thought I had made the point that your list Naziism's elements was by no means unique to that particular ideology. Those exact same conditions can be seen again and again in dozens of different regimes, but that doesn't make them more similar to Nazis than to other bad systems.

I brought up Italy's merger of corporate power with government power because (unlike your examples) it is an aspect of that regime that is somewhat unique (because they invented it) that our current administration is striving to emulate.

Just so we're clear, I very much understand and share the fears you have about the role of fascism in our future. These fuckers are bad, maybe the worst we've ever seen in this country. I just think that your particular arguments aren't productive in fighting them.

[Beetwasher]

167. Information And Acknowledgement Of Your Foe's True Nature

is the first step in fighting them effectively. If you can't acknowledge the true nature of your enemy, how can you even begin to think of defeating them? They are fascists and they share some disturbing similarities with ALL fascists but specifically the Nazi's, including the fact that Bush's grandfather helped finance the Nazi's.

Sorry, but your one vague example about Italy is ridiculous. I gave you a list of very specific things, you give me one vague example. Who says that the current fascists are emulating Italy's corporate merger and not Germany's? This is true because you say so? They both did this and it is but one (albeit important) aspect of fascism that is currently being implemented and our current regime is identical to NEITHER German or Italian fascists. You then ignore my other VERY specific examples that are NOT necessarily general to EVERY fascist regime but are eerily similar in the US and Germany but NOT Italy.

Reichstag/9/11, Invasion of Poland/Iraq, Scapegoating and stripping rights from ethnics, gays etc., demonization/dehumanization of opponents, camps for undesirables (Gitmo) etc.

You think it's just going to stop there?

The reason the Nazi's were the most successful and dangerous fascists is because they had the largest economy and military. Sound familiar?

[Raskolnik]

171. Are they the only two gov'ts that have done those things?

"I gave you a list of very specific things"

And I made the point that those very specific things are by no means unique to Nazi Germany. That doesn't make them any less troubling, it just means that you'll have to do better than that to say that this admin is more directly comparable to Nazis than to other similar regimes. You haven't done that.

My point isn't that you can't compare the two, its that there are better, more useful comparisons to make that don't carry the baggage of "Nazi"

"Who says that the current fascists are emulating Italy's corporate merger and not Germany's?"

Read some history on the relationship between the Italian fascists and their corporate partners, and you'll see why I'm saying that. Germany simply didn't have the same type of relationship between corporations and the government. Hiter *never* viewed his regime as a partnership between corporate interests and government. He used industry as a means to an end, and they were always subservient to his ideology. But for Italian fascism, it was much more an end in itself. Their goal was to eliminate even the blurry line between the two that remained in Germany.

[Beetwasher]

176. You're Being Puposefully Dense

It's the only explanation.

Nazi isn't "baggage". Yes, those very specific things ARE specific to Nazi Germany and the US. You say Italian fascists are a more appropriate comparison. You have yet to put up any facts w/ regard to this except a vague notion of different views on corporatism, corporatism being one of the most NON-unique aspects of fascist regimes.

You are in deep deep denial or you're being purposefully obtuse. You are projecting your inadequate, vague comparison onto me. My comparison WAS specific. You have yet to give me an example of a fascist regime to which the current one is more similar. I gave you a specific list, you give me one vague non-unique example. Put up or shut up. My list was of things that are unique to Nazi's AND the US, you have yet to put forth ANYTHING resembling it.

I've read plenty of history and know exactly what I'm talking about. I suggest you brush up.

[Raskolnik]

178. I don't think you even read the post.

Try it again.

[Beetwasher]

180. LOL! I Read It, There Was Nothing There

You dismiss my specific, unique list of attributes and say your one vague, non-unique attribute is a better for a comparison because, well, because you say so! :eyes:

You have yet to show how US fascist-corporatism matches Italian fascist-corporatism and NOT Nazi-fascist corporatism. You have yet to show ANY OTHER attribute linking US Fascism w/ Italian fascism except this vague notion of corporatism, which you can't even show is unique to ONLY US and Italy. It's really quite ridiculous.

If this was a thesis for a paper I was grading you get a big fat F.

[Raskolnik]

206. This time actually *read* the words.

You'll see that I addressed your points, but you just keep repeating the same thing over and over for some reason.

If you don't have something that actually addresses my point, just repeating old arguments doesn't really cut it.

[Beetwasher]

221. You Are Pathetically Ridiculous

You have no point except to deny anything presented to you. You addressed none of my points except to dismiss them out of hand by saying they are not unique or specific and then you say you're non unique, vague, unspecific example is better. You repeat ad naseum you're bullshit w/ no back up, no facts except your absurd insistence that what you say is true.

You either need to learn how to debate or learn how to remove your head from your rectum.

[Raskolnik]

222. What a pleasant fellow you are.

It has been a pleasure talking to you.

Good luck.

[Beetwasher]

223. Yes, Run Away, And Go Learn How To Present Facts When You're Debating

Instead of usupported assertions. Learn to back up what you say. Then people won't think you're pathetic.

Yup, I am most definitely NOT pleasant to willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest people.

Welcome to the internet.

[Forkboy]

157. such a victim

[VioletLake]

161. The problem with this argument

is that it needs to be delivered a certain way, or it doesn't work. When it does work, it can be very effective.

[m berst]

169. Stop it right now!!

Why do people keep claiming that Beetwasher is sarcastic?

Beetwasher is NOT sarcastic, so stop saying that!!!

[offcenter]

173. Hey!

We need to round up those who would break the rules of sarcasm by not using winky things or eye rolly things on them internets.

They should all be persecuted right outta here!

First we shoot em.
Then we stab em.
Then we hang em.
And THEN we kill em!

[SemperEadem]

170. when the nazi' started out, they hadn't murdered 6 millions Jews, either

at first, they lulled the German gentiles into a stupor so that when it came time for the nazi's to implement their 'final solution', the people would have absolutely no clue as to what was happening until well after the fact.

[frank frankly]

174. yep, beetwasher, they surely are nazis

we are FUCKED.

[Lone_Wolf]

175. Fascism can take many forms...

Nazism was only one such form of fascism. Many other countries have had there own forms. Italy, Indonesia, France, Spain, the US, and more have all had their unique blends of fascism.

[Guarionex]

179. Add up all the dead from U.S. interventions.

Can someone please add up all the dead from U.S. interventions...i'm sure it easily passes 6 million

2-3 million in Vietnam alone.
2-3 million in Korea as well
add in there Japan's Hiroshima and Nagasaki
add the dead of all American interventions in Latin America, included the "Disappeared".
Add in there the dead of the First Gulf War
add in there....

Do I have to continue?

We've killed WAY more than the Nazis did...we are just stylistically better at it...we like to "perfume" our murders...and we have a superior propaganda/ideological system to cover it up (actually, we modeled our modern public-relations industry after German propaganda systems). The Nazis never thought of "fighting for freedom and democracy" as a cover for their murders....we are way more advanced in manufacturing consent for mass murder..

The Nazis got nothing on us...while we like to strut around back in the U.S. about our "civilized values"...the dead of our wars bear witness to our "civility".

[frank frankly]

187. except the Nazi's didn't have these

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,65885,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

holy shit.

i can't think straight sometimes, these days.

time to go live with the eskimos. or wolves. or something like that.

[Guarionex]

199. I warned of this...i was tarred and feathered

As a studnet of history and politics, I warned my friends at a University that I won't disclose (i fear for my identity) at a public rally that this country was changing to fascism....that was 3 years ago....

today, the debate over whether or not fascism is possible has become MAINSTREAM....the media won't touch it...but the people are speaking about it, as it is evident on this and other forums.

This is quite scary...we are living in pre-fascist/fascist times.

[lynch03]

189. There the ones who turned "Liberal" into a pejorative..

They deserve it, they want to misrepresent who we are... then will do the same to them, accept were seriously not that far off..

[Angry Girl]

193. Then why are they using Nazi books? Birds of a feather...

In her great article "Conquering by Stealth and Deception:
How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power", Katherine Yurica reports:

According to Jeffry Sharlet, Hitler’s Mein Kampf and William L. Shirer’s The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich are studied as textbooks in a particular leadership training group he wrote about in Harper’s magazine.

FULL ARTICLE:
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

Leadership training article here:
http://www.alternet.org/story/16167

Jesus Plus Nothing - Originally from Harper's Magazine, March 2003. By Jeffrey Sharlet:
http://www.harpers.org/JesusPlusNothing.html

[genieroze]

195. Yes they are

Fascism Anyone?
Laurence W. Britt

The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 23, Number 2.

Free Inquiry readers may pause to read the “Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles” on the inside cover of the magazine. To a secular humanist, these principles seem so logical, so right, so crucial. Yet, there is one archetypal political philosophy that is anathema to almost all of these principles. It is fascism. And fascism’s principles are wafting in the air today, surreptitiously masquerading as something else, challenging everything we stand for. The cliché that people and nations learn from history is not only overused, but also overestimated; often we fail to learn from history, or draw the wrong conclusions. Sadly, historical amnesia is the norm.

We are two-and-a-half generations removed from the horrors of Nazi Germany, although constant reminders jog the consciousness. German and Italian fascism form the historical models that define this twisted political worldview. Although they no longer exist, this worldview and the characteristics of these models have been imitated by protofascist1 regimes at various times in the twentieth century. Both the original German and Italian models and the later protofascist regimes show remarkably similar characteristics. Although many scholars question any direct connection among these regimes, few can dispute their visual similarities.

Beyond the visual, even a cursory study of these fascist and protofascist regimes reveals the absolutely striking convergence of their modus operandi. This, of course, is not a revelation to the informed political observer, but it is sometimes useful in the interests of perspective to restate obvious facts and in so doing shed needed light on current circumstances.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

[Raster]

197. nazis? no. fascists? yes. I prefer the term "snotzies".....

...the Connecticut brand of totalitarian fascists.

[The Zanti Regent]

201. How many Gays have died from AIDS?

...more than six million...

[bvar22]

207. Only "GAYS" have died from Aids?

........thought so.

[indigobusiness]

208. It's a bean counter, sports scoring world we live in.

Amazes me daily.

[eridani]

211. In 1936, Hitler hadn't murdered 6 million either

He started off with laws against gays and restricting women's rights.

[selmo7]

212. 30 Bush-Hitler Comparisons

Someone sent me the Bush-Hitler comparisons - I'm sorry I don't know who the author is.

30 Bush-Hitler Comparisons.

" "The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality. Today, Christians stand at the head of our country. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past years." - Adolph Hitler

30 Similiarities Between President Bush and Hitler

Yes, there are important differences, but some experts say the Bush/Cheney administration is becoming more and more like Hitler's regime.

1. Like Hitler, President Bush was not elected by a majority (his first term), but was forced to engage in political maneuvering in order to gain office. (In his second election, Bush may have been helped by his good friend and campaign contributor Thomas O'Dell, owner of Diebold, manufacturer and supplier of the paper-trail-less computerized voting machines.)

2. Like Hitler, Bush began to curtail civil liberties in response to a well-publicized national outrage, in Hitler's case the Reichstag fire, in Bush's case the 9-11 catastrophe.

3. Like Hitler, Bush went on to pursue a reckless ultra-nationalist foreign policy without the mandate of the electorate.

4. Like Hitler, Bush has accordingly improved his popularity ratings, especially with veterans and conservative Republicans, by mounting an aggressive public relations campaign against foreign enemies. Just as Hitler cited international communism to justify Germany's military buildup, Bush uses Al Qaeda and the Axis of Evil to justify our current military buildup.

5. Like Hitler, Bush promotes militarism during economic hard times. He uses war preparations to help subsidize defense industries (Halliburton, Bechtel, etc.) and presumably the rest of the economy on a "trickle-down" basis.

6. Like Hitler, Bush glorifies patriotism to stir up public support. He treats our nation's unique historic destiny almost as a religious cause sanctioned by God.

7. Like Hitler, Bush quickly makes and breaks diplomatic ties, and he makes generous promises that he soon abandons, as in the case of Mexico, Russia, Afghanistan, and even New York City.

8. Like Hitler, Bush envisages a future world order that guarantees his own nation's hegemonic supremacy rather than cooperative harmony under the authority of the United Nations (or League of Nations). He is willing to break the U.N. Charter, in promoting this end.

9. Like Hitler, Bush scraps international treaties, most notably the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Biological Weapons Convention, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the Convention on the Prohibition of Land Mines, the Chemical Weapons Convention, the Kyoto Global Warming Accord, the Geneva Accords, and the International Criminal Court.

10. Like Hitler, Bush depends on an axis of collaborative allies, which he describes as a "coalition of the willing," to give the impression of having a broad popular alliance. These include the U.K. as compared to Mussolini's Italy, and Spain and Bulgaria as compared to, well, Spain and Bulgaria, both of which were aligned with Germany during the thirties and World War II.

11. Like Hitler, Bush possesses a war machine much bigger and more effective than the military capabilities of other nations. Today, Bush depends on a "defense" budget roughly equivalent to the combined military expenditures of the rest of the world.

12. Like Hitler, Bush is willing to invade other nations despite the opposition of the U.N. (League of Nations). He also has no qualms about bribing, bullying and insulting its members, even tapping their telephone lines.

13. Like Hitler, Bush pursues war without cutting back on the peacetime economy. He actually seeks to reduce taxes while conducting an expensive invasion and occupation of an "undesirable" nation.

14. Like Hitler, Bush launches unilateral invasions on a supposedly preemptive basis. Just as Hitler convinced the German public to think of Poland as a threat to Germany in 1939, Bush wanted Americans to think of Iraq as a "potential" threat to our national security. Now, he is talking about Iran, Korea, and even Russia as "potential threats".

15. Like Hitler, Bush is willing to inflict high levels of bloodshed, with as many as 100 thousand Iraquis, and over 1000 American soldiers already killed. The wounded are said to outnumber the dead 8 to 1.

16. Like Hitler, Bush depends on a military strategy that features a "shock and awe" blitzkrieg beginning with devastating air strikes, then an invasion led by heavy armor columns.

17. Like Hitler, Bush is perfectly willing to sacrifice life as part of his official duty (not his own or his family's, but ours), as indicated by his unique record as a governor of Texas who was reluctant to commute death sentences.

18. Like Hitler Bush began warfare on a single front (Al Qaeda quartered in Afghanistan), but then expanded it to a second front with Iraq, only to be confronted with North Korea as a potential third front. Much the same thing happened when Hitler expanded German military operations from Spain to Poland and France, then was distracted by Yugoslavia before invading the USSR in 1941. 19. Like Hitler, Bush has no qualms about imposing "regime change" by installing Quisling-style client governments reinforced by full-scale military occupation under a military governor.

20. Like Hitler, Bush curtails civil liberties and depends on inhumane detention centers (i.e. concentration camps) such as Guantanamo Bay and Abu Gharaib.

21. Like Hitler, Bush repeats lies often enough that they come to be accepted as the truth. Bush and his spokesmen argue, for example that every measure was taken to avoid war (not true), that the invasion of Iraq will diminish (not intensify) the terrorist threat to the world (already obviously untrue), and that the U.S. staged an invasion because the risks of inaction would be greater (not less). They likewise argued that Iraq is linked with Al Qaeda (again not found to be true). They insisted that Iraq hides numerous weapons it does not possess as well as can be determined by U.N. inspectors, and they refuse to acknowledge the total absence of any nuclear weapons program in Iraq since the late nineties. As perhaps to be expected, they indignantly accuse everybody else of deception and evasiveness.

22. Like Hitler, Bush incessantly finds new excuses to justify war— from Iraq's WMD threat to the elimination of Saddam Hussein, to his supposed Al Qaeda connection, to the creation of democracy in the Middle East as a model for neighboring states, and back again to the WMD threat. As soon as one excuse for war is challenged, Bush shifts to another, but only to shift back again at another time.

23. Like Hitler Bush and his cohorts exaggerate ruthlessness by their enemies in order to justify their own. Just as Hitler cited the threat of communist violence to justify even greater violence on the part of Germany, the Bush team justifies a full-scale invasion of Iraq by emphasizing Saddam Hussein's crimes against humanity that were for the most part committed when Iraq was a client-ally of the U.S., supplied with both advisors and materiel (poison gas included) by our own government. According to the highly respected British medical journal Lancet, Saddam Hussein killed approximately 300,000 people in 30 years. George Bush's war has killed more than 100,000 in a year and a half.

24. Like Hitler, Bush's Messianic ambition to bring about America's hegemonic dominance in the world makes him perhaps the most dangerous President in our nation's history, a rogue chief executive capable of waging any number of illegal preemptive wars. First Afghanistan, then Iraq, then Korea? Iran? Russia? Will he ever stop?

25. Like Hitler, Bush has become so obsessed with his vision of a Manichaean conflict between good (U.S. patriotism) and evil (the anti- patriotic "other") that for many in contact with the White House he is beginning to seem as if he has lost touch with reality.

26. Like Hitler, Bush takes pleasure in the mythology of frontier justice. As a youth Hitler read and memorized the western novels of Karl May, and Bush retains into his maturity his fascination with simplistic cowboy values. He also exaggerates a cowboy twang despite his elitist education at Andover, Yale and Harvard.

27. Like Hitler, Bush misconstrues evolutionary theory, in Hitler's case by treating the Aryan race as being superior, in Bush's case by rejecting science for fundamentalist creationism.

28. Like Hitler, Bush attempts to control reproductive freedoms (more white babies).

29. Like Hitler, Bush ostracises and attempts to persecute homosexuals by denying them their civil rights.

30. Calling his close election a mandate, Bush justifies using government agencies, the CIA and the FBI, like Hitler used the Gestapo -- to "weed out" or intimidate anyone who disagrees with him. Of course countless differences may be listed between Hitler and President Bush, most of which are to the credit of Bush. Nevertheless, the thirty resemblances listed here are striking, especially since Bush's presidency this last couple of years must be compared to Hitler's early performance as German Chancellor, preceding the chain of events that culminated in World War II. As with Hitler, Bush's early successes in pursuit of global imperialism-- whatever the cost to others--might well culminate in disaster, if not quite of the same magnitude. And, if Bush's mental health continues to deteriorate, as some people close to him have observed, the magnitude could be much greater (he does have nuclear weapons).

For More on Bush's Fascism: http://www.oldamericancentury

[blokenblue]

213. only one problem

when engaged in a conversation with a republican and you mention the fascist Nazi connection they will rebuttal with the Nazi's weren't fascists they were socialists why do you think it was called national socialism? they had national health care etc etc.

[selmo7]

216. you tell them the dictionary defines fascist as

an adherent of fascism or other right-wing authoritarian views

where fascism is defined as

a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)

www.hyperdictionary.com

[Is It Fascism Yet]

214. Yeah, don't compare neocons to nazi's

its not fair to the nazi's

[Is It Fascism Yet]

215. BTW, It IS Fascism

Is It Fascism Yet?

The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
Free Inquiry http://www.secularhumanism.org/fi /
Spring 2003; 5-11-03

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:


1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to (sic) media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Free Inquiry, the magazine that celebrates reason and humanity, is published quarterly by the Council for Secular Humanism. Edited by philosopher Paul Kurtz <http://www.secularhumanism.org/home/kurtz/index.htm > , Free Inquiry presents scholarly and popular articles relating to secular humanism, atheism, church-state separation, and issues affecting the rights of religious minorities. For more information, contact us at [e-mail] .

[Zhade]

218. Even Hitler started somewhere.

I can't believe this has to be repeated over and over, but - Hitler did not start off killing millions of people.

He started off very similar to the current group in power.

These guys are very much indeed like a young Nazi party. To ignore that is folly.

EDIT: It's late, I'm tired, and I totally missed your sarcasm. My bad! Thanks for the post.

[durutti]

227. So non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust don't matter? n/t

[AmerDem]

229. They are Fascists!

Not Nazis but Fascists!

[PATRICK]

231. There is a narrow definition

and narrow historical framework in using those terms. No, they don't clearly apply and the two parties are difficult to define anyway except as corporatism and national reform run amok. What is more disturbing is to take more clear trajectories of certain kinds of power movements, elites, thuggery, warrior cults, nationalism, Neo-elitism versus older royalty(who once were exactly the same thing). American No-Nothings and bigots, weak minded cowards suddenly thrust into vengeful authority, the same behavior, same thought, same failures, same results, etc.

Bad guys aren't always super villains but often troubled psyches freed from conventional bounds to appear as opportune geniuses in manipulating power from the peaceful norm or decadent establishment. The ranks identify the leadership in their real character by magnifying flaws and weaknesses and human failings and especially failures. Like seeks like and those out of power seek to accommodate.

People in the middle can be brutalized as the Resistance is is polarized and swung to mere reaction and destruction. These types are a fanatic corrupting force, simple minded and deceptive, contradictory(hard thus to define our talk with or about). Aggressive-fearful-defensive-belligerent-cowardly.

Sparta as a culture formed itself into a model of this behavior which IS alarming. That is the model for the worst to come. Children formed from birth to be like that, but in the end cunning, treacherous cowardice is the hallmark of these fearsome warriors. they were the model of the autocratic Plato's Republic(equally scary when you think about it).

The definitions and appearances and crimes do not match. The type and the acts do. Nazis and fascists are comforting in that in an otherwise capitalist dominant era, they were miserably defeated and monstrous. The morality play was definitive and worked out DESPITE American corporate complicity unpunished and the big problem of RW advance unresolved in the confusion of the red herring Cold War. it was in fact a very false comfort. I have felt the shadow of WWII cast over every year of my life in this nation. Battles meant little compared to the corruption of our government to the present- without a shot being fired. Now we are in for the same sorry patterns again although by and large the people are kept dumber than ever not so much brutalized.