One of the most damaging traits promoted by a religious mindset is the

[KlatooBNikto]

ability to tell lies to oneself.This is made easy because a religious belief alone is deemed sufficient to make oneself more moral than the next person and thus one becomes convinced of one's own virtue.

Two other pernicious behavior patterns that are based on a religious mindset are a belief that whatever transgressions one makes, it must be for the greater good and so can be forgiven. That same sense of forgiveness is not extended to "others" because they either belong to a different religion, race, nationality or sexual orientation.This makes it mandatory for a true believer to take up either arms or a sword to exorcise the evils brought upon the world by the infidel.

The other belief that is equally damaging is the belief in one's own uniqueness.Such people do not want to think of themselves as part of the larger human family with the same needs and desires as all others.
Unless you belong to their subset, you either lack the special dispensations your own religion brings or you are incapable of being reformed and practice a religion tainted by some form of unspeakable corruption.

These mindsets have been a cause of unneeded human suffering for so long you would think that people who profess to be compassionate and wise would at least ask questions, if not change their mindsets.Alas, that is not going to be.

[bryant69]

1. Quite a bit of disagreement

I see those traits as not being unique to the religious mindset, nor do I see them as being specific to the religious mindset. Take, for example, Martin Luther King, Jr. Definately a religious man, but does he fit those two types of mentality? You can also find plenty of people who have those two traits (Ability to justify one's own evils while condemning others, selfishness and lack of empathy for other) who are completely non religious.

Oh and a person can desire to be unique without being selfish.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[KlatooBNikto]

2. My thesis is that religious mindsets are uniquely inoculated from

the guilt feelings most people will feel about such transgressions. As confirmation, I can offer you the example of old Adolf himself, a religious man no doubt.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

6. you obviously have never met a christian

guilt is one of the biggest problems among christians of all denominations (well, most). I find it rather interesting that you pick a person who was egomaniacal and most likely insane as your example...

theProdigal

[RUDUing2]

18. you really believe Hitler was religious? Wow...

I admit Hitler used religion to manipulate the German people..but that is different then him being religious...Hitlers religion was Nazism...

check out this link for some info:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

You are right that Hitler did mention Christianity many times in his writings. He paid Christianity a lot of lip service in Mein Kampf, and he claimed to be a Christian. But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk too much about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. You really want confusion? Randy Alley, one of my best WWII history sources, noted that the SS were supposedly forbidden to believe in God--yet the military's belt buckles said "Gott mit uns" ("God is with us")! See photo, below........shortly after assuming power in 1933, Hitler told Hermann Rauschnig that he intended "to stamp out Christianity root and branch.".....

[leftofthedial]

32. what is the difference between "religiosity" and "religious"?

I mean other than your subjective decision about whether a person is "really" religious or not.

You are confusing religion as a political tool or political movement and religion as a matter of personal faith.

As an atheist, I see no difference. As a student of history, I observe that the historical record makes the distinction moot. The latter--personal faith--is the personal delusion that enables the former--the political consequences.

Whether Hitler compelled Germans to worship an ancient Middle Eastern deity or himself is immaterial. He used religiosity, hundreds of references to Christianity that are indistinguishable from the rhetoric of George W Bush or Jerry Falwell, to seize power. He then used the religious predisposition of the people (as all rulers have) to "bait and switch" deities on the weak-minded religious, just as the original poster describes and just as the repukes have done with the little bushturd.

[RUDUing2]

33. one is a true belief in the other is using it for manipulation purposes

without believing it yourself..
kindof "do you walk the walk or just talk the talk"..

IMO Hitler had a messianic complex..it is a mental disorder..and while they use religion to gain their desires..it is simply a tool to be used...if Hitler believed in a God it was that He was the manifestation of that God...

[leftofthedial]

40. and you judge "true belief" how?

Objectively there is no difference. By their acts shall ye know them.

[RUDUing2]

42. by reading Hitlers statements and the

statements of his underlings..He had a complete disdain for relgion except for as a tool of manipulation.

[leftofthedial]

43. by reading the statements that said he was not religious

and believing them

while also reading the statements that included Christian ideas and ideals

and not believing those.

How do you know what he believed or didn't believed? You can't know the soul or the heart or the mind of another. This is the pervasive paradox that allows "faith-based" ideologies to persist.

It doesn't matter anyway. He used Christianity to gain power and then "bait and switched" to Hitlerism, just like Bush is doing. Had he not, the outcome would have been the same, perhaps worse.

[H2O Man]

24. Nazi Germany

was an example of science out of control. The "experiments" in the death camps were scientific in nature, not religious at all.

Both religion and science can be used for good, or abused for bad.

Some of your points are important, and I think it is healthy for DU to discuss and even debate these issues. However, it is better to take an objective look at both science and religion. And in this post, you come up short.

[ablbodyed]

4. Your examples>>>>

are the exceptions that prove the rule. The religious mindset is the source of 90+% of the misery in the world. Organized religion is the most pernicious scam in human experience (and the xtian churches and the most successful scammers of all). The basic tenets of Christianity are demeaned by every organized xtian sect. Oh, there may be a few members who espouse and live those tenets, but the vast majority do not. The religious mindest is a combination of cowardice, stupidity and hypocracy: the opposite of what Christ means. It's the organization that usurps those traits for its own benefit: cowardice, the natural fears and uncertainties that we all have for the unknown (and unknowable); stupidity, "Well, maybe they are right, I'd better believe, just in case"; and hypocracy, using the phoniness of overt xtian demonstrations to prove that you are 'good'. And the rare good that comes from these groups is by chance, not by design: the organization will always prevail, to the detriment of the truly needful members.
The original poster had it right.

[qazplm]

3. with a brush that broad

you could paint whole villages in no time ;)

I'm agnostic myself, but seems to me being religious doesnt require telling lies any more than being an atheist does. It requires perhaps some rationalizations, but thats all of life.

A religious belief alone doesnt make someone think they are more moral than the next person, being alive generally makes someone think they are more moral than the next person ;)

And we ALL think we are unique, that only we "get it", that we have a special "purpose" in life, that the universe literally does revolve around us (technically it does but thats cosmology ;))

I think you are painting with a very broad bunch and lumping things together and not seperating things out very well.

Human suffering has been caused by religion sure, but human suffering has been healed and prevented by religion as well, like everything else, there is dark there, and light.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. The flaw in the argument

It's that religion, or any kind of spiritual perception, is the cause of problem.

In fact, there are many spiritual positions and creeds that do not rely on self-deceit and/or belief in judgmental all-powerful entities. There are religions, for example, that do not rely on belief in anything at all -- they are entirely ethically founded. Even early Christianity moved away from the superstitious aspects of Roman-era Judaism with its emphasis on grace and salvation.

You seem to have made a better case against militant Fundamentalism, and other "brands" of individuality-destroying, usually violent, religion. I would hasten to add that even in most of these cases, the religion has provided the "fertile field" in which the seeds of destructive behavior may grow.

I'm not keen on exonerating religion from its faults -- I just don't think that religious belief per se is the actively destructive element. The main part of the work that must be done to combat these movements is exposing and confronting the destructive parts of the creeds, and showing how they are evil, and usually opposed to the core tenets of the creeds they claim to advance.

--p!

[LizW]

7. I'm reading Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant"

It's a great little book. Short and sweet, but he explains SO clearly why Republicans and the Christian Right think the way they do.

He talks about "frames" which are sort of like memes, but bigger. He says everyone thinks in terms of their "frames" and when presented with facts that don't fit within the "frames", those facts just bounce off and aren't absorbed, even when rationality should tell them that the facts are true.

He says it all became clear to him when he read James Dobson and understood the outlines of the "strict father" frame. EVERYTHING the right believes fits within this frame. A key part of this is that it's okay, not just okay, but necessary, to inflict pain on the "child" (who is seen as inherently bad) in order to train him to be good. This is carried out to the whole country. America is the "strict father" to the world. We know best and we must make every "child" conform to our will, because we are good and wise.

I'm not doing the book justice. EVERY DEMOCRAT should read it.

[toddaa]

8. Christianity and Religion

They are two different words. Please don't project your misunderstandings of Christianity on to other religions.

[RUDUing2]

17. and don't project your concept of christianity which seems to

be that only fundies are christians onto all christians.

[toddaa]

26. Whaaa?

Where did I do that?

[RUDUing2]

30. not you specifically, but when you

combine your post with the OP that is the inference that is made...(its all in context on the internet, ya know?)...the OP tarred all relgion w/one brush..and then your post replied to not confuse christianity and religion..which in essence was tarring all christianity w/the OP's brush...giving the impression that all christians were like the OP said, but not all religions...(see what I mean?)....

[toddaa]

34. Talking past each other

The original post tried to extrapolite a clear misunderstanding of Christianity to an even broader generalization. Based on what I read, the original poster had a horrible grasp of Christianity and was then committing an even bigger error by assuming that all religions function in the same way as his misperception of Christianity.

I'm not a Christian, so I didn't feel qualified to point out all the specific errors pertaining to Christianity. I'll leave that to you.

[AngryAmish]

9. Fundies are dangerously stupid

Thier narrow minset make them a menace. Could you imagine if one of those freaks were your child's teacher?

There should be a way to make sure they do not speak of their crazy ideas or at least make sure they are never put in any position of authority.

[Bridget Burke]

10. There's no one "religous mindset"

I suggest further study in history & comparative religion.

[davekriss]

11. My take on religion

KlatooBNikto: "These mindsets have been a cause of unneeded human suffering for so long you would think that people who profess to be compassionate and wise would at least ask questions, if not change their mindsets."

Just as Chomsky says there is a "language organ" in the brain, I think there is also a "spiritual organ" -- i.e., we are perhaps preprogrammed by countless generations of natural selection to pursue spiritual "truth", "salvation", "peace", and "meaning". To deny that pursuit with zeal or conscientious devotion is equally an expression of that preprogrammed given in our natures, albeit in disguised form.

Joseph Campbell describes 4 major cultural functions for religion (IIRC): (i) to engender sustaining and grounding "mystical" experience in a few (the founding roots of religions), (ii) to provide order and meaning that allows a political/economic system to florish, (iii) to establish and justify a ruling priestly class that benefits a few and maintains the general order, (iv) to function as a screening myth that keeps system-contrarian truths from the minds of the non-privileged classes. There is nothing wrong with item one; it all goes downhill with the latter three. That preprogrammed pursuit of the spiritual gets hijacked again and again for sociopolitical purposes that maintain, sustain, and benefit selfish hierarchy -- and at complete variance (usually) from the "mystical" experiences that served to found the religious order in the first place -- steers us into discussions of our natures that spill far beyond just the "religious" in us.

Having said that, my wife (Kriss) is a mature Christian. I can say unequivocally that her church (a small charismatic church) is filled with men and women of good spirit who turn to Sundays for nourishment, comfort, and community. The values and ideals upheld are positive and healing. During the rest of the week many do much community work to alleviate the suffering of others. My wife herself participates in runs to deliver sandwiches and hot chocolate to the homeless sleeping under train trestles and doorways when it's freezing outside. In and of itself there is nothing negative with this at all; on the contrary, this is a beautiful thing.

If I can wax metaphorically here I think there are levels to consciousness, spheres turning slowly within spheres. Up above are the spheres of transpersonal experience (mystical, spiritual, revelatory). Down below are the spheres of the wounded child, the detritus of our tragic personal histories. In between are the spheres of the everyday self that balances the checkbook and clocks in at work. A retreat into any one at the cost of the others is disorder, disease.

For example, the transpersonal in flight from the weight of the everyday or from acknowledgement of our woundings can lead to imbalance and fanaticism; a retreat below can lead to depression, emotional chaos, continuance and increase of pain; and a retreat into the everyday in denial of the above/below can lead to ennui, emptiness, and meaninglessness. What's called for, and the words of the many spiritual leaders across time have called for this, is balance and integration of all spheres.

To the extent that religion orders and integrates these spheres it can be tolerated (by me). I understand that many of us are strong enough to stand alone, separate from the ordering community of religions (Tillich's the courage to stand apart vs. the courage to participate, two poles of the courage to be in a world where God can seem very absent -- the many of us fall at various points along this valid continuum). But I am also fully aware how the sensitive spheres can be hijacked for banal (even evil) purposes. And I am aware how the screening myths of religions can distract from and postpone the fight for corrective social justice and equality. On this contradiction I don't pretend to have answers, but unlike some I neither embrace naively nor reject wholly the fundamental drives that lead men and women to bond together in intended good will under the banners of various religions.

But, hey, that's just me <---- lost in Samsarra, swimming in our Ocean of Tears...

[JNelson6563]

12. We humans run in packs, like wolves

Humans have always had a tribal/pack mentality. Those outside of our particular pack are always seen as different and not of us. Some packs (religions/nationalities/whathaveyou) view non-members in a negative light, a few do not.

It is a human behavior, not at all exclusive to religion.

Julie--atheist

[sweetheart]

13. Is that not the business mindset?

Perhaps you speak of identity politics and ethnocentric views, that
can emerge from any group or activity.

In all honesty, i've seen the same behaviours you mention much more
strongly related to business, than from anyone in religion.

The divine right of kings emerges in many places, and as well,
the attempt to suggest in some rational means why you have what you
have in life because of your cult, click or business card.

[w4rma]

14. Thats a broad brush. You should also be careful you aren't projecting your

own fallacies onto everyone not unique to you.

[Batgirl]

15. Some people are natural born followers

Specifically, the ones who are looking for someone else to tell them the answers and take away the unbearable feelings of uncertainty. Total obedience to an authoritarian leader and a rigid behavior code relieves them of the burden of independent thought.

They're sitting ducks for the predators in our species who are cunning enough to give such people what they want, and in return they get what they want (wealth, power, narcicistic "supply").

No problem, except when they organize into huge groups and start posing a threat to everyone else. Because of course, one of the things the authoritarian leader offers his followers is the assurance that they are morally superior to the outsiders. Public policies will be made according to their superior belief system, not out of consideration for those hell-bound creatures who squawk about freedom and choice.

The partnership between the Republicans and the fundies was a match made in heaven because it serves the top predators in both groups. People in the fundy churches have already demonstrated their need and desire to give themselves over unquestioningly to a certain type of leader. Then along comes little George, almost like he was tailor made to be an object of worship. All the fundie's leaders had to to was plant their sheep's noses firmly in little George's butt cheeks and command them to follow him because he's "a man of god."

Because George has been "saved" nothing he did in the past matters in the least. And because God speaks to him, any problems our nation faces aren't George's fault. It's all part of God's larger plan, after all, so don't worry, don't ask questions, just sit back, relax, and shut the fuck up.

[RUDUing2]

16. I dont see that as evidence of a religious mindset..

but rather as of an arrogant one..and is as likely to be displayed by non religious as religious..

You just evidenced the latter...arrogance in thinking that belief in religion is the cause..simply because you believe differently..and of course your belief is the correct one, right?

[Batgirl]

20. as stated

the only danger that is posed by this mindset, comes from organizing into huge, powerful groups. You know, like churches.

As for your arrogant assertion that I was speaking of all religion, it's quite clear I was specifically referring to fundamentalists. But if you insist on taking offense from that go right ahead.

[RUDUing2]

21. then say fundamentalist...not religious. If you are meaning a

narrow group, don't use a broad brush to infer all religious people.

[Batgirl]

22. if I may be so bold as to quote my own post

"The partnership between the Republicans and the FUNDIES was a match made in heaven because it serves the top predators in both groups. People in the FUNDY churches have already demonstrated their need and desire to give themselves over unquestioningly to a certain type of leader."

[RUDUing2]

23. lets look at the whole post again...

One of the most damaging traits promoted by a ***religious mindset***(not fundamentalist religious mindset, just religious mindset) is the


ability to tell lies to oneself.This is made easy because a *****religious belief****(no fundamentalist there either) alone is deemed sufficient to make oneself more moral than the next person and thus one becomes convinced of one's own virtue.

Two other pernicious behavior patterns that are based on a *****religious mindset*****(no fundy there) are a belief that whatever transgressions one makes, it must be for the greater good and so can be forgiven. That same sense of forgiveness is not extended to "others" because they either belong to a different religion, race, nationality or sexual orientation.This makes it mandatory for a true believer to take up either arms or a sword to exorcise the evils brought upon the world by the infidel.

The other belief that is equally damaging is the belief in one's own uniqueness.Such people do not want to think of themselves as part of the larger human family with the same needs and desires as all others.
Unless you belong to their subset, you either lack the special dispensations your own religion brings or you are incapable of being reformed and practice a religion tainted by some form of unspeakable corruption.

These mindsets have been a cause of unneeded human suffering for so long you would think that people who profess to be compassionate and wise would at least ask questions, if not change their mindsets.Alas, that is not going to be.
**********************************************************

Maybe I am blind but I don't see the parts that you are quoting...

[Batgirl]

25. good idea

why don't you go have a nice strong cup of coffee, maybe a sausage mcmuffin, and then sit down and look at all the posts again. Then maybe it will occur to you that you're quoting someone else's post to me and asking me to find quote in there that don't exist.

And ask for extra cheese on that mcmuffin.

[RUDUing2]

29. that would matter if my original response had been to you, but it

was to the OP, which I reposted...

So the fact that you personally changed some words is supposed to somehow change what the OP that I responded to said?

So how does that work...if (for instance)Pat Robertson says feminism is responsible for everything bad in the world..and someone else says no only extremist feminist are...does that mean PR didn't say just feminist?

[gratuitous]

19. Oh dear . . .

Difficult to know where to start. I invite you to take a look at Christian Peacemaking Teams or the work of On Earth Peace. If your view of religion is informed solely by what you see in the popular media, which appears to be the case, I strongly urge you to expand your sources of information.

Walking unarmed into a hostile battlefield as the "Red Hats" of CPT do daily in Israel and the occupied territories, requires a level of commitment and (let us be frank) guts that I don't see anywhere else in the world. If my friends in CPT feel better about themselves because they voluntarily gave up a cushy life in the United States in order to demonstrate their solidarity with some of the most oppressed people on the planet, I'd say they're entitled to that feeling. However, that's not the sense they project.

If you're blinded by the mega-church monuments to personal ego, more's the pity. But I suggest you gain a slightly fuller understanding of the subject before you haul out the big brush again.

[KlatooBNikto]

27. I am very sorry that my broad characterization included people like the

CPT you depict.That was far from my intention.I was directing my venom at those who put on pious fronts and mislead themselves and cause untold damage to others.

I apologize without any reservations.

[gratuitous]

28. No problem

Things get under everyone's skin from time to time, and venting in a safe place is an absolute requirement. Obviously, I have to do it from time to time myself, and I'm grateful for the space and the grace DU and other places afford me.

[sangh0]

38. If you're truly sorry

you'd have been more careful. It's not as if this is the 1st time you've struck too widely due to careless language. How many times does it take before something sinks into your head?

[msmcghee]

31. The mindset that is the problem . .

. . is not necessarily religious.

It is a personality type - a psychological mindset.

Believing that you are absolutely right and are plugged into everlasting ultimate truth can provide very strong feelings of security. These release endorphins and other chemicals that the mind becomes dependent on. It is a self-medicating drug addiction.

Trying to shed that dependency for the addicted personality is as hard as going cold turkey on crack. Most leaders of the Republican party visibly display their obvious addiction to this drug every time they speak - as do many of their followers.

But any socially recognized belief system will work. It doesn't have to be religious but it usually is. Why not get high on your own chemicals while you get to avoid the death penalty that all non-believers will have to suffer?

Religions also provide a sense of community and caring that also provide good feelings. Different religions specialize in providing those good feelings for different variations of personality types.

This is not bad. That's how our minds work.

The trick is to logically choose to embrace belief systems that are good for you, your friends and family and for your community.

That's what a liberal philosophy is. A belief system that's based on a rational understanding of human nature and fairness in the governing process (inclusion, tolerance and equality) - that is therefore good for society and the people who live in it.

There's nothing wrong with feeling good about participating in that system. The problem is it is not absolute, it is open-ended and questioning - and can therefore never provide the same strong drugs in your mind that fundamentalst religion and/ or politics can.

Being a liberal is like "just saying no" to all those wonderful feelings of absolute righteousness and power over others that the fundamentalists are addicted to.

[Batgirl]

35. by Jove, that's it!

"Being a liberal is like "just saying no" to all those wonderful feelings of absolute righteousness and power over others that the fundamentalists are addicted to."

Absolutely great summation, you've stated in one sentence exactly what I've been trying to wrap my mind around for the past several months.

[Lerkfish]

36. I consider this a human trait.

prone to abuse by ANY idealogy.

[sangh0]

37. I guess all those DUers bashing southerners are religious

This is made easy because a religious belief alone is deemed sufficient to make oneself more moral than the next person and thus one becomes convinced of one's own virtue.

a belief that whatever transgressions one makes, it must be for the greater good and so can be forgiven.

So I guess the DUers who criticize the relious, yourself included, have a "religious mindset" that justifies your own transgression on the basis that it's for "the greater good". I see your OP as an effort to rationize your own bigotry because you're fighting for a "greater good"

That same sense of forgiveness is not extended to "others" because they either belong to a different religion, race, nationality or sexual orientation.This makes it mandatory for a true believer to take up either arms or a sword to exorcise the evils brought upon the world by the infidel.

True, that "religious mindset" is such a grave danger that it's OK for you to practice bigotry against them.

The other belief that is equally damaging is the belief in one's own uniqueness.Such people do not want to think of themselves as part of the larger human family with the same needs and desires as all others.

It's obvious that you see those with a "religious mindset" as not having the same needs and desires as you do.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. Actually, the Bible warns against all those mindsets

People just choose to ignore them.

[Lilith Velkor]

41. One of the most damaging traits promoted by capitalism is the

ability to tell lies to oneself. This is made easy because money alone is deemed sufficient to make oneself more moral than the next person and thus one becomes convinced of one's own virtue.

Two other pernicious behavior patterns that are based on capitalism are a belief that whatever transgressions one makes, one can bribe the judge and so can be forgiven. That same sense of forgiveness is not extended to "others" because they belong to a lower class of people. This makes it mandatory for a true believer throw millions in jail to exorcise the evils brought upon the world by the poor.

The other belief that is equally damaging is the belief in one's own uniqueness. Such people do not want to think of themselves as part of the larger human family with the same needs and desires as all others.
Unless you belong to their subset, you lack the special dispensations your money brings and must live your miserable like enslaved by them.

These mindsets have been a cause of unneeded human suffering for so long you would think that people who profess to be compassionate and wise would at least ask questions, if not change their mindsets. Alas, that is not going to be.