Are GM and Ford fast becoming dinosaurs of the auto industry?

[KlatooBNikto]

I am looking at the signs that are unmistakable to my untrained but common man's eyes. Their cars stink.Nobody wants to buy them without a massive rebate. Many people are willing to pay a premium and wait for months to get a hold of a Toyota, Honda or a BMW.With the arrival of the hybrid vehicles in which the Japanese have atwo to five year lead, the gap is going to widen. Even the hybrid vehicles Ford and GM are trying to promote need Japanese components.No matter which direction they turn to their short term mentality and their neglect of quality and technology have caught up with them.Almost like George Bush's method of operation at work.Running down perfectly good corporations with incompetence.

[elehhhhna]

1. Daimler-Chrysler is still the WORST !!!!

and Dodge is a warning--not a brand name.

[KlatooBNikto]

3. In fact, I think Daimler may have a shot at survival because the

Daimler management is determined to inject their formidable quality systems into Chrysler's automotive operations.

[elehhhhna]

14. Mwhahah. Too late.

[jayfish]

29. I Seem To Remember,That Even Before The "Merger",...

Mercedes didn't rank much higher than Chrysler on the J.D. Powers surveys of initial satisfaction. I will also say that Chrysler makes cars that are beautiful to look at but are mechanically junk. Especially their automatic transmissions. I have owned two Chrysler's in the past 7-years and both had catastrophic transmission problems. Not to mention all of the other crap problems. I am down to one car now because I can't afford to have the tranny in my current Chrysler fixed. This transmission had all of the normal maintenance done on it too. Stay away from DM. As far as GM and Ford go they seem to have durable power-trains but everything else is garbage.

Jay

[KlatooBNikto]

30. About Chrysler transmission problems, I have a very personal story

to tell. During the late 70's when Iacocca was peddling his stuff, I out of a patriotic zeal, decide I was going to get a Plymouth Horizon as a second car. I paid for the car and rove out of the dealer's lot, happily whistling on the expressawy when I took the exit to get to my home.At the top of the ramp, I tried to step on the gas after the light changed to green, only to find the car wouldn't move! I tried and tried, but no dice.Finally a passer by pointed out my transmission was sitting on the pavement! Apparently, they had forgotten to bolt down the transmission to the chassis.

In my anger, I wrote a letter to Iaccoca detailing my experience but I never received any response.I settled the matter with my dealer.He offered to get me a totally new replacement but I insisted on cash and got it. I went ahead and bought a Honda.Obviously my patriotism got hurt but at least I could get to work.

[ReverendDeuce]

38. Couldn't DISAGREE more...

I grew up in a home of GM and Subaru (early 80's). Around '94, I bought one of the new "cab forward" Chrysler sedans. I've never looked back. As far as domestics are concerned, they are the benchmark for American automobiles. The new 300C is a vehicle to reckon with.

Although, I almost bought a Mercedes-Benz CLK55 AMG this summer. Decided against it. I am happy in my Jeep Grand Cherokee, thanks. I will admit, however, that I would gladly trade in for a V12 Benz of appropriate lineage. Or a Bentley...

If I want dime-a-dozen luxury, I can get a Lexus... no doubt, their cars are very, very nice. But they're not European... and don't have the haughty European feel...

Anyway, I digress...

[Bruce McAuley]

49. The LH series is gone...

That was the old Renault design Chrysler bought in the late 80's with the Eagle Premier and Medallion, then revamped into the LH series, which seemed to be pretty good cars, my uncle drove two or three of them to very high mileages before trading them in.
The new series Chryslers are basically the older Mercedes E class with slightly different motors for the US.
In 25 years, Chrysler has changed mechanicals 3 times: Once with the Omni/Horizon/K-car(Volkswagen technology), once with the Premier/LH series(Renault technology), and now with the Mercedes running gear.
Theyve definitely had a few changes at Chrysler, but I think they will survive.
EVERYBODY builds "world cars" these days.
Remember the Ford Contour? It's now the Jaguar X series. Different badges, add some glitz, and PRESTO! A New Jaguar!
Ya never know what you'll get unless you understand what platforms the manufacturer has used and STILL uses.

Bruce

[eridani]

39. Acronyms

Drips Oil Drops Grease Everywhere

Dead Or Dying Garbage Emitter

[judge_smales]

2. Unfortunately it's more complicated than that, but the answer is

still the same- "Yes". Their cost structures are waht are killing the Americans- mainly the pension and retiree medical benefit obligations that they saddles themselves with over the last 30 years.

[Blue Wally]

44. Last fifty years......

[rkc3]

4. I've been saying that to anyone who will listen.

The improvements in hybrid technology brought on by the Japanese will sink the US automakers.

It's just a matter of time before the Nissan Armada has a hybrid engine in it that gets 40 MPG and has 350 HP - it's almost like Honda and Toyota are toying with the big 3, teasing them with their innovations before crushing their skulls.

Actually, I'm still surprised anyone buys a US car any more. There isn't one out there (except maybe for a Cadillac DTS/CTS) that even looks like it would be fun to drive.

[Kitka]

10. I have to buy GM.

My dad runs a Chevy dealership and I can't afford to buy another car because my dad can get a GM car fixed for free if need be. But damn, I want a Toyota again. I bought a Prius and had to sell it.

[jakefrep]

32. Apparently,

the Mustang, Corvette, Dodge Viper and Pontiac GTO aren't fun?

Anyway, I believe the Big 3 are making progress in the car department. Two and a half years ago, I bought a VW because a) I wanted a CAR and b) Detroit's car offerings were stale and they were spending all of their product development money on trucks and SUV's that I neither wanted nor needed. Now that the focus seems to be back on building cars, I will seriously consider several different domestic models.

[fujiyama]

41. There are some decent American cars left

but as another poster said, I got it party because of all the rebates and incentives.

I have an '03 Saturn and it's ran perfectly. I've got about 20k miles and have had no problems. I myself was hesitant at first, but with some coaxing from my dad, I ended up getting it.

But I know that if it wasn't for the rebates and incentives (and a good deal overall), I'd have rather got a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan.

I will say that when it comes to Chrysler, I like two cars - the Viper (unless they stopped production. I forgot) and the CrossFire (I was surprised it was a Chrysler until I saw it. Cool looking car).

[City of Mills]

46. Just bought a Ford Focus

Not even a year ago, no regrets...lots of fun to drive, gets me where I need to go, great on gas, comfortable ride, affordable, etc. It's my first Ford (lifetime GM guy) and I have to say I'm very pleased!

[Kolesar]

47. Hybrids are good for stop & go traffic and about nothing else

The hybrids are designed to reduce air pollution from cars in Tokyo that sit and idle at traffic lights in their grid locked city. Fuel economy is just a bonus. Hybrids have no advantage for normal driving and certainly cannot justify their price premium in fuel savings. Hybrid owners in America don't get the fuel economy printed on the EPA sticker on the window of the new car.

[lcordero]

5. If you are trying to buy "American" then buy

Honda or Toyota...but they are made in red states. I wonder if any manufacturers make in blue states.

[Liberaltarian]

9. illinois has several car plants.

chrysler, ford, mitsubishi...that i know of.

[MemphisTiger]

12. Where does the money go?

To Japan where the headquarters are. I have a GM and Honda. Both are very reliable cars if you perform regular maintenance on them. I don't understand the foreign car snobs that look down on anything American. I could understand this view in the 80's when all US cars were complete crap but give the big three a chance. I think you will be surprised I know I was when I bought my GM.

[lcordero]

19. the way that I see it

is that a "foreign" automaker doesn't have to make cars here in the US...but they still do. An "American" automaker will move a factory overseas in a heartbeat. As far as "where the money goes", I am interested in keeping American WORKERS employed, I have no interest in keeping an "American" CEO employed.

Money and resources get hoarded at the top, that's why tax cuts for the rich are such a bad idea. So I really don't care if the money is going back to Japan...we aren't going to benefit from the money staying here and getting hoarded in the first place.

[MemphisTiger]

20. There is more to a car than just the factory

the engineers, analysts, designers, and even file clerks need jobs too. They are not pulling down the big dollars like the executives so they are not evil.

[lcordero]

21. ????

http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1101030519-451002,00.html

"Nissan's strategy, championed by turnaround CEO Carlos Ghosn, exemplifies the latest transplant wave: a direct assault on Detroit's most profitable models. The Titan was designed by a California-based team of mostly Americans, who Nissan thought could best understand the U.S. truck crowd's preferences. About 85% of the Titan's components come from U.S. suppliers. And it will be built in the pickup-loving South, which Nissan hopes will add credibility. Says Ghosn (pronounced Goan): "The market is sensitive to the fact that this product is assembled in the U.S.""

They are employing engineers, analysts, designers and file clerks that are American.

[MemphisTiger]

23. I like that idea, but

the fact is that this is isolated to the Nissan Titan.

[kysrsoze]

26. Untrue. There are a slew of Japanese cars designed and built in the US

Toyota has a massive design studio in the LA area. Nissan, Toyota, BMW, Honda, Mercedes and other manufacturers now build cars in the US.

[eridani]

40. Acronyms

Now In Some Stupid Automotive Nightmare

Take Off Your Oversized Tires, Asshole

Break My Windows

How Odd, No Damned Acceleration

[lcordero]

27. !!!!

"foreign" companies employ American engineers when they don't have to, "American" companies lobby Congress in order to get more H1Bs into the US so that they cut screw American engineers and American workers.

[LSK]

36. dont forget all the small OEM manufacturers that you are killing

Lots of tiny shops around the country have contracts to make a seatbelt or a bolt or a switch and you are killing them by buying a foreign car.

[kysrsoze]

25. That's an uninformed, protectionist viewpoint - check your facts

Ford and GM are doing very badly because they have miserably failed to innovate on the cars they serve up to the US population. Volvo, Mazda, Rover, Jaguar, Opel, Isuzu, Subaru and other car companies are at least partly owned by GM and you see lots of innovation in those cars. The offerings of Fords and GM cars in Europe are vastly different from what we get here. In the US, they peddle poorly designed cars built off aging platforms that use cheap materials and manufacturing techniques. They build crap for the US because people are dumb enough to buy it. There is no excuse why they can't offer customers a decent, likeable car.

GM has done more to innovate their platforms than Ford. Ford deserves to die off after introducing the 500 which is already an absolute bomb. Japan will eventually kill at least Ford, if not GM for their failure to get into alternative power and build cars that people desire. If you're so upset about the profits from an American-built Honda going back to Japan, you're free to invest in Honda Motor Corporation - anyone can.

[lcordero]

28. Don't attack him for being protectionist

I'm every bit of a "protectionist" if not more.

[MemphisTiger]

31. I agree with you, sort of

The point of my first reply is simply that not all American cars are garbage. This was true in the 80's but today it is a different story. I know just as many American car lemon stories as I do foreign car lemon stories. I've owned both American and Japanese cars, all have been great reliable cars.

I do agree that the big three have done little to inspire the pubic to buy their auto over a foreign automaker, but the cars they make are good vehicles as far a quality. Some of the automakers that you mentioned like Volvo, Rover, Jaguar, Isuzu, and even Subaru are all good cars, but they are very expensive cars well maybe not Subaru and Isuzu. They cost more as compared to the American car in its class. So, the comparison is a little bit hard to justify.

[unionmom]

35. Ummm, Michigan is a blue state and we build lots of cars.

It's hard to compete when you have foreigners who will work for food and a dorm room that sleeps 14. That's what you support when you buy foreign. No healthcare nothing. Even when you by an "Amerasian" car, you're still supporting companies that give their employees the very least they can get away with.

[jakpalmer]

48. Could you please provide sources

to what you say ?

I think you're a bit confused: Nike and Gap are not car makers.

[EOTE]

6. Actually....

I was under the impression that American car companies have been getting a lot better over the past few years due to domestic companies becoming more global. For instance, GM has a lot of new vehicles based upon Opel and Saab platforms (such as the new Malibu) and Ford has been making some really competitive vehicles with Volvo platforms such as the new Focus (based upon the Volvo S40 and the Mazda 3) and the Lincoln LS (which I own and love) based upon the Jaguar S-Type. I know the quality of these vehicles still isn't up to the standards of their Japanese counterparts, but according to JD Power and Associates, they're exceeding most of their European counterparts.

[KlatooBNikto]

8. What has happened in the last two decades is the perception that

American cars, by definition, are inferior in quality.No one even disputes that assumption.That alone is a killer.

[EOTE]

18. I agree...

American cars have always been inferior in quality to their Japanese counterparts and continue to be so. However, as of now, it's the general concensus that they're getting better and now surpass most Europeans in terms of quality. However, just because the build quality is inferior does not mean that there are not great bargains to be had with American cars. The Focus has a great European chassis that makes it really fun to drive, yet still maintains an economy car price. Also, it's buttoned together just as well as the equivalent Golf which costs several grand more. The 5th and 6th generation Vettes have in my opinion been the best bargains in sports cars I've seen in a long time (the current generation Vette will go toe to toe with a Ferrari F360 for less than a third of the price). The Pontiac GTO is a fantastic, sporty 4 seater based upon Australia's Holden Monaro for under 30 grand. Chrysler's new 300C competes against cars such as the BMW 7 series and Mercedes S-Class, but can cost about a third of either of those cars. The hemi powered 300C even has a fairly ingenious 4-8 system which can allow it to run as a 4 cylinder under low load conditions to improve fuel economy. Granted, it's no hybrid system, but it allows great V8 performance with V6 fuel economy. Also, Cadillac has the 50K CTS-V which most automotive journalists competes very favorably with the far more expensive BMW M5.

Sure, domestic car companies still have catching up to do, but there are plenty of good domestics out there which can be had for great prices. Also, domestics do offer very large rebates now so they can compete, as well as great financing. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Honda fan, I've driven the new gen V6 Accord and I absolutely love it. I think all car companies with perhaps the exception of Mercedes Benz are producing the best cars they've ever made. In the end, I think the consumers are the greatest beneficiaries.

on edit: spelling.

[kysrsoze]

33. Yeah, I have to say Chrysler is coming a long way

though it's due to Daimler realizing they have to do it to stay out of financial trouble. Yes, the Focus seems to be a great car, but too many Fords and GMs are not. Cadillac seems to be coming around, but there is still way too much U.S. mfg. focus on big trucks, rather than the cars people want to drive.

I've driven recent Pontiac Grand Prix, Chrysler Sebring, Ford Explorer, etc. All I can say is they are adequate at best. Over time they become extremely loose with lots of rattles, generally handle poorly, though they tend to have decent gas mileage. There is little in the way of refinement. There is no reason why the U.S. automakers shouldn't be at the forefront of design, quality and fuel economy. It's not the labor - it's the design.

That said, I also think Mitsubishi is one of the poorest-quality, poorly designed and dangerous cars on the road.

[KlatooBNikto]

37. In a recent article, the NYT says that the problem with the world wide

auto business is that there is too much capacity and too few buyers. In fact, one estimate I have read says that there are as many as 30 million cars excess capacity worldwide.I guess some of these will have to be absorbed by the new emerging countries like China and India but this is going to be a long time before the excess capacity is soaked up.I do not see anything but rough roads ahead for the auto industry worldwide.

[fujiyama]

42. .

[PATRICK]

7. United in Armageddon

At least in war they could make dough building tanks and other vehicles, but Kerry promised them a future which is now aborted. The American labor force is being gutted of decent union jobs.

It is becoming a very LONELY feeling in the US Postal Service, perennially signaled for privatization and obsolescence and one attack on our contract after another. The same dismal right of the Board of Governors and the management to drive the business into the ground even though they have an obligation by LAW to do their job(i.e. deliver the mail). They wrote our doom decades ago but as others sunk we actually held our own and made small progress. Now you can, with overtime, do better in the Post Office than merc-ing or driving trucks in Iraq.

Yet the digital future, should it manage to survive, would quickly wipe out the entire network. before then of course, as with all else that is Bushco, the vulture must descend and rake off higher private fees for doing less of the job and throwing our jobs to the wolves and the serfs who sweat for them.

Can someone explain to all the people, sometime when they are not tuned to the idiot box, why we allow our future so blithely to be raped and murdered? Is the life right now THAT cozy and good?

[Liberaltarian]

11. Is the life right now THAT cozy and good?

for a lot of elitists, it obviously is.

[Rockerdem]

13. Look into the future, and things get a lot worse

At the moment, the Chinese auto quality is terrible. About on par with used Yugos. Most experts, though, think that in 10 years, their quality will be on par with Detroit's. Some think that it will be sooner.

If that's the case, all "Detroit" will be is a corporate HQs and design center (like Dell), and the manufacturing will all be done in China. Perhaps a few boutique vehicles will be made here, but the rest of the blue-collar work will be done in Asia.

This has already happened to Germany, where factories have been decimated by Eastern European labor savings (also some US manufacturing). More labor unions will be going down the tubes, along with the salaries and benefits. If you live near Detroit, sell your house now and leave pronto.

[hatrack]

15. I remember seeing my first Hyundai in the winter of 1990

It was chunky, ugly and just plain weird-looking. I had to ask where it came from. Now, they're everywhere. What's more, I've driven Hyundais, and they're pretty damn good cars.

So, given the degree of investment which Japan and Korea are already making in China, to say nothing of the next few years when China gets its own industry up and running (assuming they don't get crunched by energy problems), it's going to get very ugly for millions and millions of Americans.

On edit: spellgglling

[KlatooBNikto]

17. I used to work in the steel industry and saw what happened to

Pittsburgh from the 60's onward.I get the same sinking feeling about Detroit now. It is going down.

[Rockerdem]

22. Detroit isn't going to "go down" entirely

They are going to sell a lot of well-made American designed Chinese-produced cars in the future. The management and the stockholders are going to make a ton of dough. Really good cars are going to be somewhat cheaper. And when you buy them, you will feel about the same you do as when you purchase a piece of electronic gear now. You'll like the quality and be amazed at the price.

The only loser will be the guys and gals on the production lines, and in the support services in American manufacturing centers about to become ghost towns. Blue-collar union halls in the upper midwest will become a memory

[KlatooBNikto]

24. Your scenario looks like it is going to happen. Thank you for your

insights.I always tell my friends we are going to see cars sold at Wal Mart soon.

[w4rma]

16. Most American industries are being overtaken by foreign companies.

Too much pride in what they did to get where they are and not enough humility to make the changes required to keep that position.

[artr2]

34. I bought a GM car 1 year ago

It's a Chevy Cavalier and I am totally happy with it. I have had zero problems with it. Change the oil every 3000 miles, keep the tires inflated to the proper pressure. I drive 25 miles each way to work and a tank of gas lasts almost 2 weeks.

[recidivist]

43. I like my Saturn.

I'm a basic transportation guy and don't play in the razzle-dazzle, what's-new-today leagues. People buy cars for a lot of reasons that don't have anything to do with getting where you're going. I guess that's their business, but it's not for me.

American cars have gotten dramatically better over the last fifteen years. Sure, there's still a range, and everyone is chasing Toyota, but the qualitative gaps between the better American cars and their Japanese counterparts are not significant.

However, as the marketers have always known, brand attachments tend to be formed when a person is young and last a long, long time. American automakers are still paying dearly for their quality problems in the 70's and 80's. There are a lot of Honda/Toyota snobs out there right now who don't know what they're missing in good American cars.

The real question is, how can the U.S. automakers recapture the young people. Get 'em young and they'll likely stay a lifetime.

[Kolesar]

45. I bought a Ford &it was not a function of rebates

Your post is wholly based on perceptions. Your perceptions. The new Toyota Scion product line had terrible quality ratings. My Ford is the best vehicle I have ever owned, and I have owned three japanese cars.