Is Al Martin working with Karl Rove?

[Must_B_Free]

Al Martin has a business making up lies for which he is the single source and then he sells them as books.

Today we see the mixture of a legitimate crime with some of Al Martin's product.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php#278315

it is assertedthat Joseph Wilson identified "Karl Roverer" as the source of the information.

So it seems that Rove is working with Martin, huh?

It appears that the strategy is to tie Martin's unfounded assertions to the truth that Rove committed high crimes in outing Wilson's wife. This way, it all gets dismissed as regular Al Martin nonsense.

Kind of like saying all the lies told about Iraq were only "sixteen words"...

I suspect that Al Martin may be a wolf in sheeps clothing who is working AGAINST the entire movement. He has contributed nothing of value, and has wasted alot of time effort and destroyed credibility. He's an obfuscator, a mist man. He creates extraneous smoke and chaos to shroud the legitimate efforts.

[FlashHarry]

1. Rove did the same thing with Junior's cocaine arrest.

Wasn't he the leak to the guy who wrote that anti-Bush book, then died? The idea being, that the press would dismiss him as a lone kook.

[berry]

2. I wondered about that too

especially since I didn't think Joseph Wilson (who logically should have been his source for this) wouldn't be likely to give him a scoop. Wilson has other, better placed friends. I do wonder what Wilson thinks of this...

[radwriter0555]

3. Martin is a good guy.

that much I know.

[FlashHarry]

4. How do you 'know?'

If you don't mind my asking.

[Must_B_Free]

6. Another baseless assertion about Martin

at least my assertions are based on verifyable observations of unsupported statements he has made.

I am waiting for anyone to prove ANYTHING about Al Martin.

When was the first you recall readin him?

For me it was around the time he said that they would be patrolling the neighborhoods in orange shirts. (that seemed to have a grain of truth behind it).

Next was the time he said the US stamp with the eagle was a nazi symbol, however, upon research, this was demonstrted to be false. It was an art deco sytlized Eagle common of that time, no specifically Nazi. Then they said the color blue it was on was called "aryian blue" as if that somehow proved something...

This man is reminiscient of Erik Von Daniken.

[nostamj]

5. ieamerica has had him on for two days now

in the 3-4pm eastern slot.

he's claiming 70 CIA operatives were KILLED because of Rove...

one needs more than a :tinfoilhat: for this one

[Must_B_Free]

7. I have heard him on IE

so he repeats his baseless assertions, so what?

I also heard the crackpot from santafe who has an unlimited energy machine on i.e. - does that mean he isn't nuts?

[nostamj]

12. he sounds nuts to me

i was surprised that IE had him on for two days with such an over-the-top claim...

[Cocoa]

8. then there was the "Wilkinson" story

that also smacked of disinformation.

Right when the Wilson story came out, a right-wing website, "Capital Hill Blue" ran a bogus story that could have served the same purpose you're saying about this Al Martin story.

Kind of weird.

[Must_B_Free]

9. Someone else pointed out another double fake too

The release of the french Book about bin laden "The Forbidden Truth" was quickly followed by a fallacious french book about bin laden which was quickly discredited.

Only yesterday did I learn that there were actually two books, I had assumed it was "The forbidden Truth" that was discredited - I didn't even know there was a second book.

[CaptainMidnight]

10. i believe him

sometimes.

I used to read his stuff quite often, then he started charging admission on his website.

He's written a lot of stuff that I believe to be true, or has the ring of truth to it. Look, it's all so bloody secret what goes on, how do any of us know the EXACT truth?

Al's 'out there', but i believe he WAS an IRan Contra insider, and people who's voices I trust here and online have read "The Conpirators," and they give him street cred. He's sorta like Skolnick; sometimes he defies belief, but then he can be dead on right, and report something that gets revealed elsewhere much later.

I don't like to waste time with conspiracy theorists. But then, who could have imagined OPERATION NORTHWOODS and its real-life carrying out of such, in this day and age?

Captain MIke

[mountebank]

11. Thanks

Good message.

I'm trying to get a handle on this guy - but only know of him through the Wilson-Rove story.

I'd like to hear anyone else's experiences with him......

[tom_paine]

13. In defense of Al Martin

(and here I am NOT saying everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt...yes he seems to exaggerate, but MANY things he predicted that I initially put in the "wacky" file have later been confirmed)

Ed McMahon doing commercials for the Citizen Corps.

Dropping $20 bills on Afghanis during the Afghan Invasion (the New York Times and Post later reported we were also dropping $100s as well)

The new "anti-terror": truck for urban use. Later saw said truck talked about in Popular Mechanics when it was displayed at a Military/OHS Auto Show in 2002.

No, the "urban-hover drones" which are not a stretch of the imagination, anyway, when you consider the Predator drone has been in existance now for a decade...these were not shown and remain in the "Apocyphal" pile, so to speak.

As to the US stamp with the Nazi eagle, I happened to be reading Al a lot then and he only asserted it was a Nazi-style eagle...he sarcastically called it Imperial State Power Eagle.

So I went to the post office to get some to see for myself, and I found that he represented them quite accuately.

Wanna test the theory out? Go down to your local Post Office and ask for the new 57 cent airmail stamps. The eagle most certainly is Nazi-style.

I take Al with a grain of salt. But even if he is an exaggerator or ewven a Bushevik disinformationist, he certainly mixes enough true stuff (often, like the $20-bill dropping story, well in advance of Corporate TV Pravda reports) in with the disinfo and/or exaggerations.

We are, as the citizens of the Old Soviet Union that we are more and more coming to resemble every day, faced with the same dilemna. When everyone is lying, where can the grains of truth be found. When you have no Free Press with fact-checking apparatus (or greatly atrophied fact-checking apparatus, as we still have here in the Empire), who is to be given credibility.

Where are Comrade Brezhnev's agent provocatuers? Their lying allies? We know the Blowhards and Screams and Scribblers who form Comrade Bushevik's Propoaganda Corps, but where are the wolves in sheep's clothing?

Al Martin may be one of Comrade Bushevik and Herr Goebbels v2.0's men, but he may be just an pissed off old guy with a penchant for exaggeration and dramatic liscence (whihc is perhaps why he isn't found dead of suicide by untraceable "rat -shot").

But who can tell. In the Kingdom of the Blind...in the Old Soviet Union or Nazi Germany or the Amerikan Empire, this is the dilmena.

I would neither give blanket acceptance or condemnation to Al Martin, but would view him with skepticism because there can be no doubt that he gets more than a few things close enough to factually correct to warrant an occasional looking at...

[JanMichael]

14. Reasonable approach.

The blanket condemnation of Al is a little screwy to me.

Sure Al sounds like a kook, then he's proven correct o something, sometimes he's mis-taken too, but aren't we all guilty of that every so often?

[seventhson]

15. Blackops and disinformation techniques to discredit OFTEN

contain MUCH truth -- then enough qeirdness to discredit the whoile thing.

Trust NOBODY completely.

The best agents are long term sleepers or those who have been on the payroll for decades ACTING like a lefty and SOUNDING like a lefty.

Like Nader, for example. Classmate of Rummy and Carlucci and brags about it (at Princeton)_.

Or Kerry - schoolmate of FBI Chief Robert Mueller (but you never hear that they were hockey teammates at St. Paul's)

You just never really know who wqorks for them.

Larouche says a lot I agree with -- but is he for real or is he a decoy?

Tarpley could be the same.

Even Loftus, I suppose, could be a pawn.

The best propaganda is 99% truth and less than 1% total fabrtication.

Take the protocols of Zion. This was a fiction turned into a supposed accurate account and pinned on Zionists by the extremist right and the Nazis. The description of fascism described therein is accurate -- but the fact is that it is not a Zionist plot it is a fascist plot Blamed on the Jews. (see the history of Naziism and "Der Fuehrer" by Konrad Heiden for details - 1944, Houghton Mifflin)

[mountebank]

16. Interesting point.....

It's what prevents a lot of people from wading into this stuff: it requires a lot of attention and extreme vigilence. Intellectual self-defense on high. No good sources and bad sources, but constant scanning *within* a source.

It's probably why most people avoid places like this discussion board. The idea of trying to tease apart truth from exaggeration from lies is too much. Especially for people who think in terms of black and white.

I can understand that, though. Assessing primary sources and making your own decision requires a real commitment. Maybe Noam Chomsky has time for it (and thank God he does), but most people don't. It's not easy.

It still doesn't help me with this guy, though. Just have to wait and see.

[Must_B_Free]

18. You didn't have to buy them

"As to the US stamp with the Nazi eagle, I happened to be reading Al a lot then and he only asserted it was a Nazi-style eagle...he sarcastically called it Imperial State Power Eagle.

So I went to the post office to get some to see for myself, and I found that he represented them quite accuately."

They were online and the pictures were linked in the thread at that time. One has wo wonder why you didn't see them.

I did the research myself and could find no Nazi Eagle that resembles the stamp's eagle, any more than any American symbol of an Eagle. (recall we've used it quite a bit)

The stylization was only characteristic of the Art Deco movement of that time.

There are Swastika on a building at Penn State - so what? The Nazis perverted that christian symbol - it was in wide usage before that and is still not considered a Nazi symbol where it is still used with its original meaning.

[supercrash]

17. I read his book

And he seems legit to me. He names names and places and times, he has kept very good notes during his Iran/Contra days, He outlines dozens of frauds commited by the Bush boys, I really believe that he is one of the guys that was caught on the outside in 86 when Iran/Contra fell apart, and he is talking