Robert Heinlein Science Fiction author was right...Fascist Theocracy

[gordianot]

Robert Heinlein the Science Fiction author like many of the early greats predicted the technological breakthroughs that have developed. He was right on in predicting the atomic bomb and had some subsequent problems. Much of what he predicted has not come to pass.

When I was a teenager I lived on the same street of a close relative to Robert Heinlein (late 1960's).

When I found out his relative lived close by I lived to meet the great man. I got my chance to ask questions and have a conversation.

In his future time line stories Heinlein discussed an America that was dominated by the religious right. He was convinced that it might happen in the near future . This conversation just came back to me. He was correct!

We are living in the Fascist Theocracy Heinlein predicted. I hope it does not have the same ending.

[Chicago Democrat]

1. What was the ending??!!!

Is it?
:nuke:

[gordianot]

2. Civil war

[indigobusiness]

23. Worse.

Cultural dissolution.

[salvorhardin]

3. I envy you

You got to have an actual conversation with Robert Heinlein. Wow.

I've said it before around here, but Bush could easily be Nehemiah Scudder.

[gordianot]

6. I met him after he finished "Time enough for Love".

I wish I would have brought a tape recorder. It just hit me he was right, and he thought it would happen someday.

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

16. i hate to fish... but any more tidbits from RAH???? :^>

Preety please?

Having read (I think!) all of Heinlein, save the unpublished recent work, it'd be awesome if you could recall anything else from your conversation.

Perhaps as a seed to recollection, I'd say that despite all the great things to comment on, I have to lament the total mis-take the movie version of Starship Troopers was... Just the idea of country and the political franchise of voting for citizens seems so relevant today.

Thanks in advance!

FMH

[gordianot]

25. He considered his early books to be juvenile.

I was told that the books he was writing were being written as adult books. I asked mostly about details from Star Ship Troopers. He talked about the war in Vietnam. There was considerable anger over the draft and that the National Guard was used as a way out of having to go to Vietnam.

He did not like Communist or religious fanatics.

PM me and I will send details.

[immoderate]

38. Juvenile books like "Red Planet"?

--IMM

[HawkerHurricane]

39. Hienlien wrote a series of 'Young Adult' or Juvenile books...

from the late '40s to early 60's. Toward the end of the run, he had gotten tired of it... Podkayne of Mars was the last 'official' juvenal... but Starship Troopers was written for that series...

[Liberal_Dog]

12. I Tend To Think That Bu$h

is more like Buzz Windrip than Nehemiah Scudder.

[HawkerHurricane]

4. "If This Goes On...."

was the book title. It's part of his 'future history' series, and while he was often wrong about technical details (The Rolling Roads) he was often right about social details (Suburban Sprawl).
See also 'Stranger in a Strange Land' for another type of religious fanatacism.

[librechik]

5. "Revolt in 2100"

the heroes infiltrate the theocracy but find it is too corrupt to rescue or overthrow even with superior technology. They take a big chance and escape into space in the first city-sized starship, looking forward, generations hence, to colonizing a planet in a different solar system far away.

Luckey stiffs. We're stuck here with Bush. MAybe we can escape to Mars.

Not much usable advice in this novel, which I am BTW holding in my hands. It's kinda yellow and crumbly. I used to adore Heinlein because of the science and the female heroines. Reading it again now, I find the militarism, sexism, and savage libertarianism (he called it "rational anarchy") just makes me cringe. Everybody smokes cigarettes constantly, even in space. Gag.

sad. You're lucky to have met him. He was one of the best.

[HawkerHurricane]

8. I think you're reading Methuselah's Children...

which is the second half of Revolt in 2100... the first half is 'If This Goes On'; the middle is 'Coventry'...
HH, the SciFi fan.

[Liberal_Dog]

11. My Copy Of "Revolt In 2100"

has "If This Goes On.." followed by "Coventry" and then "Misfit".

I bought all of Heinlein's "Future History" novels when I was eleven years old. D. D. Harriman is still one of my all-time favorite characters.

[indigobusiness]

7. Stranger in a Strange Land (unabridged version)

should be required reading in every high school.

"Front!"

[gordianot]

9. Will never happen in boosh Amerikkka.

[Raster]

22. Thou art God.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Stranger in a Strange Land

is my favorite book ever. Heinlein is brilliant. How lucky you are :)

[Boosterman]

10. I love Heinlein's books

With that said he was kinda weird. He sure didn't leave an impression that fascism was wrong in Starship Troopers. Musta been real dry satire. Maybe my book club was mistaken.

[gordianot]

13. This was definitely a military family. Very conservative.

Now that I think there were a lot of contradictions. I met Robert once. Was an ardent anti communist, sort of a rugged individualist. I actually heard the line "War does not settle anything tell that to the city fathers of Carthage".

Funny though Robert Heinlien got into trouble over his stories about the atomic bomb. He had to convince some rather unsavory types he knew nothing specific. They laughed about it but you could tell this was a harrowing experience by the number of times it came up in conversation.

One person said might vote for Bobby Kennedy if he got a haircut.

I also heard that sort of thing at home all the time. Seems like ages ago in another world.

[m berst]

14. I hear this so often

I have read all of Heinlein's work, and Starship Troopers probably 4 or 5 times at least over the years. I could never figure out why people thought it was advocating fascism. Whenever I ask anyone where they got that idea, they admit to not having read it.

[gordianot]

18. He was not a fascist. Was not a fan of authority.

[Boosterman]

24. I have read it a few times

I have to admit I didnt make the connection at first. Perhaps it was me looking for something that wasnt there, but you have to admit the form of government that was written about was fascist. The arguments presented in it made it actualy seem appealing. Like i said maybe the sarcasm eluded me...but lashes as a punishment for a crime? Twice? then they kill you? Kinda out there. JMO

[m berst]

29. it is fiction

Heinlein also wrote about a theocracy in the novel that the op mentioned. As a novelist writing sci-fi, he was a master at creating plausible settings for his stories. The stories are the important thing, not the setting. He challenged the reader's concepts of freedom and government with that setting, I think, without advocating for the setting necessarily. The main themes in my view were duty, teamwork and sacrifice.

If all of his stories used the same government and social settings, then perhaps one could say that he was advocating them or was biased.

That is my take, anyway. It is such a great story and I am always surprised that people focus on the social setting - just one of dozens and dozens that he created over the years. Interesting that the knock on the book used to be that it glorified militarism, and now I hear that it glorifies fascism. Maybe someday it will be criticized for glorifying space travel?

[Boosterman]

31. Weeelllllll

I was refering to Starship Troopers only (big Iron Man fan). To be honest I prefer my scifi/fantasy to be mainly escapism. An occasional thought provoking moment wont bother me and it really didnt in this case. I took it for what I wanted. I reread it several times later and still marvel at it. Its an excellent book. Now you can argue that maybe Heinlein was writing as an observer of the "times" in his own context of the future. But damn he actually made me think fascism and a military government had some appeal. He was very persuasive and I am happy he wasnt writing for someone on the other side. Whichever side he was on, thank whoever he wasnt a political speechwriter.

[m berst]

35. he was good at that

He created some believable future worlds and sold the premises for them well. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Orphans of the Sky come to mind.

[starroute]

15. Heinlein was the weirdest mixture of stuff

He grew up in Missouri, surrounded by fundies -- escaped mentally by reading Darwin at an early age, along with lots of proto-science fiction -- and made a fundamentalist dictatorship the enemy in his first novel.

But he was also a Neocon before there were Neocons, with stories as early as 1940 suggesting that the only way to make the world safe was for Americans to take it over and run it with an iron fist.

He's a god to the libertarians for books like "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress."

But "Starship Troopers" presents a world in which society is based on a condition of permanent war and no one can be a citizen who hasn't served in the military.

And it wasn't even that Heinlein was someone who could see and argue any side of an issue. His attitudes were amazingly consistent (and extemely rigid) from book to book. He just had a major dichotomy going on in his head between freedom and security, absolute individualism and mindless patriotism, and it was never clear which side of the coin was going to come up for any given toss.

[BigMcLargehuge]

26. about starship troopers

you said

"But "Starship Troopers" presents a world in which society is based on a condition of permanent war and no one can be a citizen who hasn't served in the military."

The war doesn't start until Juan Rico is in boot camp. Citizens have to volunteer for the federal service, but it's not only military. The State decides where you serve based on your skills so someone might be assigned to executive toilet cleaning detail or something. Thought the book wouldn't have been as exciting if it was about a guy and his toilet plunger.

In Heinlein's own words he describes the complaints people had with his use of the word "veterans" and their insistance that it meant only of the military. he said "what about all talk about veteran school teachers, veteran doctors..."

[forgethell]

37. You're wrong about

Starship Troopers. yes, you had to serve in the military to be a citizen, but everyone had the opportunity. If you wanted to serve, they had to find a place for you. But there was no permanent condition of war, and the society was not based on it. In fact, a lot of the book took place before the war that concerned most of it begain. Heinlein was pretty much a libertarian.

[Pepperbelly]

41. He was a big Goldwater supporter.

That hurt me to the quick when I read his letters in support of Goldwater in the collection of diaries and letters his wife released after his death.

[gordianot]

45. The relative liked Bobby Kennedy.

I could see Mr. Heinlein going for Goldwater.

I spoke to him for an hour and a good part of that was showing where we found the 2 foot mud puppy a living fossil.

He did not like religious fanatics both Communist and the domestic variety.

[m berst]

17. was just thinking about that

Just the other day I was thinking about "If this goes on..." and remembering how surreal and unlikely it seemed when I first read it - probably at least 30 years ago. It just seemed so far-fetched and impossible that something such as that could happen here.

I immediately realized that it doesn't seem at all unlikely anymore.

[Ladyhawk]

20. You know what upsets me? I finally got rid of fundamentalism...

...in my personal life and now it looks like I'll have to deal with it in public life.

Life's not fair, is it? :(

[m berst]

30. aha

So this whole nightmare is all because they are trying to get you back into the fold?! ;)

We need a "Freedom from Falwell" initiative.

[Ladyhawk]

33. LOL...yeah, if I hadn't left, none of this would have happened. :) n/t

[NinetySix]

19. Yes, but look at his solution:

Read "The Sixth Column." Freedom of religion could be a very powerful way to subvert and undermine dictatorship, even a theocratic one, perhaps.

[BigMcLargehuge]

28. he uses the Masons for that one

if I remember correctly...

[kodi]

47. it worked, in poland in the 1980's and helped bring down communism

the activism of the roman catholic church led by the first polish pontif subverted the communist regime in poland and its demise and aftershocks to the warsaw pact nations eventually brought down communism.

i like heinlein, but even he agreed with me, ted sturgeon was the best SF writer.

[kitp]

21. i will clear this up

The novella is called "If this goes on..." (original title "Vine and Fig Tree").

This work was later grouped with the stories "Misfit" and "Coventry" into a collection called "Revolt in 2100".

The story about escaping to another solar system is "Methuselah's Children".


"If this goes on..."

Nehemiah Scudder is a backwoods preacher. He manages to win the trust of a widow who, when she dies, leaves him the fortune her husband left her.
With this money, Scudder sets up a religious television station, begans broadcasting evangelically, runs for president in the 2000 election and wins.
This is the last election the U.S. sees for three generations as he institutes a theocracy.

Freedom loving Americans go underground and plot rebellion. Under the third 'incarnation' of the Prophet - as Scudder like to call himself - the underground has grown large enough to revolt, which they do so successfully.

The novella takes place during the revolution.

It is an excellent book, but not a happy one. I don't want to wait until 2084 for freedom...

[JanMichael]

27. Since I was born in 1968 I'd really rather not wait until then...

Also, being an Atheist, Materialist if you want, I'd rather see the end of the TheoCorpo World sooner rather than later. For purely selfish reasons.

Of course as a realist I don't terribly mind setting the stages that ultimately lead to a truly free people, even if that is after my own demise.

No baby steps, just steps, one after another, that destroy the current power structure. Even if it falls after I die, at least the mother fucker falls.

[Boosterman]

32. question is

which direction are the steps in? Right now I think I would be very happy with baby steps.

[JanMichael]

34. I would imagine away from Plutocratic Rule and toward something...

...like, or similar to, a Cooperative Commonwealth.

Something that places less emphasis on economic exploitation and more on cooperation and democratic coordination.

[Boosterman]

36. The problem with that

is getting some sort of global commitment. I am all for it....assuming i dont have to give up anything ;)

[JanMichael]

43. So the problem isn't global it's personal?

Sorry, you said it:-)

[Boosterman]

44. Well it was somewhat

tongue in chek. However, this is an extremely complex issue. I want globalization to occur. We really do need to be united (Big ST fan). The problems occur when cultures and values clash. How we can resolve that I honestly dont know. I have/had such high hopes for the UN but it seems to be infested with the same corruption and inefficiency of our own government. If you have some hope for me then I am all ears.

[slaveplanet]

40. Grok

[Octafish]

42. Grok

Michael Valentine Smith
Winston Smith
Dr. Smith
Smirko the Clown

[gordianot]

46. Grok

Lazarus Long

[indigobusiness]

49. That's 'Valentine Michael Smith'

Jubal Harshaw.

[SteveG]

50. Read "If this goes on"

The story of a theocratic state becoming a reality in America.

[gordianot]

51. That was my purpose with this thread.

Not speaking for those who are gone, this development is very disturbing.

That part of me that learned from these two men (Heinlein brothers) does not react well to a theocracy.