Boys are struggling academically (Why?)

[ckramer]

Girls are taking the nation's colleges by storm. They're streaming to campuses in greater numbers, earning better grades and graduating more often. The same phenomenal success shows in high schools, where girls dominate honor rolls, hold more student government spots and rake in most of the academic awards.

So says a just-released report from the U.S. Department of Education.

Impressive. But the real news is tucked into the deeper, darker corners of the report. Boys are doing miserably, and nobody knows quite why. On measures ranging from writing ability to the likelihood of needing special education, boys are flat-lining - or worse.

The phenomenon is most serious in inner cities, but it's evident in even the wealthiest school districts. And it's not confined to the United States. The same trend is turning up throughout the industrialized world.

Op/Ed - USATODAY

[Maple]

1. Boys used to get

all the attention. Girls were struggling.

So everybody focussed on girls, and now they are doing well, while boys are struggling.

Same ol', same ol'.

EVERY child should count.

[teach1st]

4. Everybody focused on the girls?

Haven't really seen that at elementary level.

[Maple]

14. Girls are now doing well

in every subject. They used to do badly in maths and sciences, and well in English. Boys did well in maths and science, and poorly in English. It was thought to be because girls were 'verbal' and boys were 'spatial' in their thinking.

Simply prejudice...so people decided to push girls, and give them an equal chance. Meanwhile, they forgot the boys.

Same game, different team.

[teach1st]

20. I see it differently...

As an elementary teacher, the general trends still hold that boys do well in math and sciences and the girls do well in the verbal areas. The reasons for this are debatable and they need to be debated. Is it because of expectations or is it because of real differences - or a combination?

The real differences in performance right now are that in general girls are more able to sit for the longer hours of basic test drills that are in vogue and that increasingly there is less expectation that boys do well in school, at least in the early grades.

[sonicx]

10. actually, I think boys still get more attention...

[Warpy]

18. They do, from what I've seen

Part of it might be cultural, with boys getting a lot of flack from bully boys if they excel academically. Or it may be something worse, like damage from environmental chemicals.

[realisticphish]

50. i solved THAT in school

by being smart AND big :evilgrin:


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Yupster]

58. Boys get more attention for sure

They get suspended, flunked, put in detention, left back and put on medication.

Many school districts have done teacher inservices making the staff aware that African-American kids are being sent to the office at rates far beyong their numbers. Experts are brought in to explain to the white middle class teachers that things they consider disrespect and bad behavior are in actuality cultural differences. My wife and I both benefitted from such a program.

You'd think that seeing the rates at which boys are struggling a similar program could be put into effect where experts on how boys learn best could advise women teachers that boys and girls learn differently and as women, they need to tailor their instructional techniques more tward how boys learn best.

That would sure make more sense to me rather than wondering why little Jimmy can't just be more like his sister in class.

[Carolinian]

88. But it's not limited to black male boys.

I agree with you about the difference in acceptable behavior and I agree with finding common ground there. However, at my school we had a big uproar over an incident in which all the 8th grade boys were put in detention because one of them snatched a girl's notebook and read her love notes out loud in the boy's bathroom. My son was taking a class in another building at the time and he was still punished. They were chewed out by the girl's teacher then by the principal. The lectures were on how disrespectful they were towards girls and they were told they didn't deserve to even get passing grades because of it. That didn't happen, but the boys were made to feel degraded nonetheless.

[VivaKerry]

23. Other way around. Girls are working harder....

because they know they have to do three times better than a boy to get a position that pays half what the boy does....

[Darth_Kitten]

135. right on.....

:)

[CTLawGuy]

137. wow, only 23 posts before we got to this....

:eyes:

[Yupster]

191. Reasons not so important to me

Regardless of why people think it's happening, it's obvious that our system is failing boys currently.

Le's find out how we can make the system work better for boys.

We have done many studies on how boys learn most effectively. So let's start to institute the changes needed.

We know it's important to have some men in elementary schools other than custodians.

We know boys learn best by touching and moving, not sitting and listening. We know the schools like the kids in neat rows. Let's start to get that beurocracy moving so we can change the system so boys can learn better. We know what to do. Let's do it.

No need to blame the boys, the teachers or the parents.

We know what will make things better, so let's do it. We're currently failing these kids.

[bemildred]

2. Maybe it's the ritalin? nt

[moondust]

24. Or the video games? nt

[feistydem]

39. I would agree with this one.

I have a middle-school daughter who gets straight As and my elementary school son gets all high grades too (they don't do letter grades yet). We don't own any video games other than Zoo Tycoon on our computer.

Our kids friends walk around in dazes with their Gameboys in their hands. They are getting lower grades and have very short attention spans I have noticed. Who owns the Gameboys? Mostly boys.

Get them off the damned video games and give them a book!

So who is to blame or boys failing? Sorry folks --I say it's the parents.

[JNelson6563]

115. Oh nonsense

My son is in 7th grade and my daughter is in 10th. Both get good grades, my son has a 4.0, my daughter a 3.8. Both play video games. He plays the cello she plays the violin. We read a lot here and I talk to them about history, current events, politics, you name it.

I do agree with one point you made, if we want to place blame we need to look at the parents. Video games, like almost anything else, are OK but in moderation. Parents that don't make the effort to not let their kids sit around and play video games all day, every day, (and the kids will if you let 'em) will see results of their lack of effort in report cards and behavior with others.

Like my dad told me years ago, it's easy to say "yes" but sometimes it is worth the trouble to say "no".

Julie

[Carolinian]

187. But board games are excellent skill builders and great fun

for the family. Our preschoolers loved Concentration and Hi-ho CherryO. When they learned their numbers we moved to Crazy Eights. Then the most important of all...Chess (by age 5).

[girl gone mad]

48. It has to be more than just video games..

although that may play a role.

My son is addicted to VGs, but he makes outstanding grades. I think blaming video games is the equivalent to blaming time spent outdoors in the old days.

Personally, I think it has something to do with what our culture values. In men, we value athleticism and the macho tough-guy attitude. Brainy guys are considered geeks, not something to aspire to.

[bemildred]

79. I give some credence to that.

My son plays VGs and does fairly well in school. But we limit
TV and read a lot, so he is surrounded by that.

I think that there is an inherent conflict between the type of
concious attention one uses in watching videos and movies and
playing VGs and the type one applies in reading and writing.
The mode and style of attention and immersion is completely different.

I think we are at a (potential) cusp in the predominant style of
conciousness as dramatic as the change that occurred in ancient
Greece when alphabetic literacy came into vogue in the upper classes
and reading and writing became the mark of aristocracy. The entire
flow of western civilization since then has been predicated on that
style of thinking, and that seems to be changing now, for good or ill.

[ixat]

120. Huh... I'd say get rid of TV completely - it's good for you, too

;)

[bemildred]

123. I never watch TV myself.

Can't stand any of it. Lies and bullshit.
;-)

[ixat]

153. ...Bullshit and lies. And bullshit. And lies. And lies. And...

[snoochie]

94. You're right - it's cultural values, not video games.

My *daughters* have lots of video games and the one that's in school does very well. It's up to the parents to set the rules on any recreational activity be it video games, comic books, or whatever.

It's paramount for parents to instill a love of learning. The amount of anti-intellectualism in this country is out of control.

[THUNDER HANDS]

104. i agree, my cousin is a video game addict

literally spends every waking moment playing Doom-style games, but manages to get straight A's.

[snoochie]

107. Sorry to hijack

but I love your sig pic... what's that from?

[Lorien]

116. That was my first thought too, but

since it's a world wide phenomenon, it doesn't seem likely. Neither does cultural influences (again, since this isn't confined to the US). Boys still get the most attention in schools, no matter where you go. A friend of mine has a brilliant son who has always been at the top of his class. two other students (girls) have been neck and neck with him academically since jr. high, but the school has always been more impressed with/ focused on my friend's son because an exceptional boy is, well, exceptional!

I know that girls are now being born more often than boys because of hormones in dairy products (hormones that help cows produce more milk also inhibit the "masculinization" of fetuses). These hormones also gets into the ground water in areas near dairy producers. Could it be having negative effects on boys worldwide? What about boys in Asian countries, where dairy use is very low? Could other environmental effects be a factor?

Scary stuff, at any rate.

[Lorien]

140. More on environmental contamination altering behavior:

NEW warnings that a tiny amount of pollution can alter the gender of sheep have sparked fears that it could also affect human health .
Scientists at the government’s Macaulay Land Use Research Institute in Aberdeen have discovered that male lambs exposed to low-level environmental contamination start behaving like females. This has worrying implications, they warn. The toxic soup of industrial chemicals in the air may disrupt human hormones and make people more vulnerable to disease.

“If these results are confirmed by further studies, I believe humans have reason to be concerned about exposure to mixtures of pollutants, even at the very low concentrations present in the environment,” said Dr Stewart Rhind, one of the institute’s leading scientists. These results, combined with many other studies , suggest that exposure to low levels of a mixture of pollutants could result in subtle alterations to human and animal behaviour, and immune and reproductive function.”

People are exposed to small concentrations of thousands of synthetic chemical compounds in the air, in water and in food. Many of them are classed as gender-benders, or “endocrine disrupters”, because they can interfere with natural hormone cycles in the body.

EDIT

Rhind and Erhard stress that the contamination does not pose any “direct danger” to anyone who eats lamb. But they are worried it could have “adverse implications” for the reproductive and immune systems of humans, wildlife and domestic animals. Their study was funded by the Scottish Executive’s environment and rural affairs department and appears in the scientific journal Science Of The Total Environment. Although environmental groups approve of sewage sludge as a fertiliser, they are concerned about the “subtle contamination” of the land."

EDIT

From this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=16951&mesg_id=16951

[iconoclastic cat]

175. Two words: Horizon Farms.

:beer:

[Ms. Toad]

193. Huh?

Gender of a child is not determined by masculinization of a fetus - it is determined by the particular sperm which fertilizes the egg. I suppose it is possible that these hormones could affect gender identity - but they cannot affect gender at least in the manner you have suggested.

[tsuki]

83. No maybe about it.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. There is a deep vein...

of anti-intellectualism running through the young males these days. Some of that is the influence of the hiphop culture, as I see it. Some of that is engendered by the schools pigeon-holing the kids and teaching them to be stupid, in the name of standardization. Some of that...sheesh...who knows?

It's cool to be a badass. It's cool to be cool. it's cool to get laid a lot. It ain't cool to be smart.

[Viking12]

25. Exactly!

Through our entire society, but very prominent in young males. Anti-intellectualism can be tied directly to the rise of RW media.

[tblue37]

26. I have an essay

on my Teacher, Teacher website entitled "It's Stupid to Be Smart"

http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/stupidsmart.html

It is about the pervasive anti-intellectualism in our culture and in our schools.

I think boys are held to a "higher" standard of anti-intellectualism (yes, the irony is intended) by their peers than girls are. Intellectual boys often become social outcasts.

[eridani]

53. Anti-intellectualism isn't new

I was in grade school in the 50s and it was out in full force.

[tsuki]

86. Actually, socially it is "okay" for a girl to make good grades now.

However as a mom who had a son on the academic team for his school, who was forced every Friday afternoon to attend a "pep rally" during school for the football team, I think the "anti-intellectualism" runs deeper than we have can understand. Smart=Geek. Maybe that was why 4 years on the academic team only got him a mention in the yearbook.

[iconoclastic cat]

176. Neat site! You need a blog!

A collection of articles is nice, but I'd like to read your daily trials and exploits.

[no_arbusto]

65. Things will change soon.

It's cyclical. Seriously, it is. We had the same situation when I was in 6th or 7th grade (I'm only 27 now). At the time, "hip hop" acts such as 2 Live Crew, Eazy E and NWA were criticized for telling kids it was "cool to be a badass, cool to get laid, etc..." Everyone I knew wanted to be a gangsta or thug because that's what was popular at the time. When "grunge" rolled in around 1990 or 1991, we saw a shift towards a more intellectual era that lasted until the late 90's.

I have a pretty good feeling that we are about to see another "counterculture" movement similar to the early 90's. All of the indicators are there. Cheesy pop, corporate "hip hop", and country pop rule the airwaves. We have a Bush for president. We're at war with Iraq. Etc...

[Lorien]

117. But this isn't restricted to the US

Is anti-intellectualism popular everywhere? No, I think there's something more to this...

[K-W]

158. Blaming Hip Hop? COME ON

Its all about how the child is raised, music has nothing to do with it. All of the attitudes existed long before hip hop, hip hop just became a way of expressing them.

Its like blaming a thermometer for making it cold outside.

[AngryAmish]

171. Best analagy EVER!

[iconoclastic cat]

177. Exactly. Music is always scapegoated.

[MichiganVote]

5. So, where are their fathers?

[Darth_Kitten]

136. Where they've always been.......

:)

[Yupster]

169. I think you are on to something Michigan

More kids than ever are growing up without dads in the house, and now we notice boys not doing well. I'm sure there's some relationsip between no dad in house and son not doing well.

[The Straight Story]

6. Cause they are busy elsewhere

Playing games, online, doing fun things.

Well maybe. But I can say the techs I know are all busy working and when not working playing games. College is not high on the list of things.

And if women are doing so much better, why the pay disparity we have seen time and again?

Something is not totally right in all these studies IMHO....

[snoochie]

95. You think the wage gap between genders is due to ability?

Seriously?

It's usually explained (read excused) by time off for pregnancy, but the reason is the same as any other situation where anyone is robbed / taken advantage of - because they can.

[Lorien]

119. "Because they can" exactly so

I trained many young men for the film studio I once worked for. I had more responsibilities than any of them, I worked longer hours, I had more challenging assignments, I even trained interns on the side. But my male students always made more than I did when promoted just below me. They had bigger bonus checks. When I asked why, I was told "well, you have the option of getting married and being supported by a man. They don't. Men just need more stuff". The only man I've ever been engaged to beat me. Marriage is NOT an option! Women get charged more for everything from clothing and dry cleaning to cars, so "needing more" is a crap argument. And as for supporting a family; my single mom had two mouths to feed, but she never made as much as her single male counterparts.

I even have to hide my gender as a freelance artist (easy to do online). One company I worked for was openly sexist in their wages; they paid women artists $25 an hour, and men $45 an hour. Since I was faster and more experienced than anyone working for them, they eventually raised my wages to $40 an hour (after many negotiations). Still, I was being handed botched jobs by male artists to fix. In their minds,it was cheaper for them to have a man do a crap job and pay me to fix it at a cheaper rate than pay me a man's wages to do it right the first time!

[eyepaddle]

125. a HUGE factor in pay disparity

is the social norm against revealing how much you earn. Obvioulsy there are a bunch of factors, but think about it, who does keeping this secret benefit? Your employer, it's the old divide and conquer strategy--has anybody else ever gotten a raise and then been told by your boss that you should "keep this quiet?"

Most people have some sense of their relative value to an organization, and if you knew what your actual pay status is that helps your bargaining position. I've actually seen this in practice and often (or these days maybe not...) you can get a raise by starting negotiations and bargaining hard.

I've heard commentators discuss this, and culturally it seems women are less likely to be that squeaky wheel, gettin' that grease.

[Yupster]

170. But if boys work less hard

because of a wage disparity, you'd think the problem would get better as the wage disparity has gotten lesser.

Instead as the wage disparity has closed, the boys have lagged more. Seems if wage disparity were the issue the numbers would go the other way.

[Sleepysage]

7. Now that gender roles are reaching parity...

...guys just can't count on macho bullshit and the like to get by, anymore.

[teach1st]

8. It's a combination of factors...

Many of the factors have been touched upon in previous posts. It's societal, of course, and peer pressure plays a part, but there is more: school culture -- the way school works -- seems to work against how boys learn.

[girl gone mad]

49. Historically,

boys have done well in the same type of system. What's changed? Have they devolved somehow to become less capable of classroom learning?

[Yupster]

59. What's changed

Less PE classes, no recess, fewer male teachers, way fewer male principals and assistant principals, zero tolerance policies, standardized tests, behavior modification drugs.

Is that enough to do harm to a group that needs to run around more than another group?

[phylny]

68. Sorry, I respectfully disagree with a few of your points.

The vast majority of my teachers (and I graduated high school in 1976!) were women. I didn't encounter a male teacher until middle school, and even there, women teachers were the norm. So I don't think the lack of men in schools is the reason.

With regard to zero tolerance policies, sorry, we need them for the safety of kids. I have three girls of my own, but many more nephews than nieces. Every one of them knows what they can and can't do in school, and they DON'T do what they're not supposed to do. They don't fight, they don't bring in weapons, and they don't harass other people. That part ain't that hard, if you've taught your kids self-control.

I will put myself out on the shish kebob and ask a question of the parents of boys, and flame away if you must:

If you have boys and girls, do you favor your boys (not a good choice of words, I know), are you unwilling to let them be responsible for their actions, and do you reasonably hold them to the same expectations as you do girls?

The majority of you will probably say yes, and I think that's great but the reason I ask is that I've worked in education, and I currently work with young kids. In my experience, almost every family of boys cuts them enormous slack, to the point that they coddle them. Now, I fully understand the difference between boys and girls, and in many times the boys are more active than the girls, but hear me out.

I really enjoy working with the boys, and my joke is that God gave me girls as daughters because he knew that the vast majority of my caseload would be working with boys so I'd get plenty of "y" chromosome, but what I see over and over again is a general, for lack of a better word, babying of the boys. They're more likely to have pacifiers, to be sucking on bottles way past their 1st birthday, many into their second, they put up one little protest and the mothers smother them with kisses. If they have a hissy fit, mom is running all over the house trying to appease him. You don't like peanut butter? Here's an egg. Don't want the egg? How about a grilled cheese. You don't want to work? Oh, my sweet baby boy! I'm not making this up, and it amazes me every time.

The girls that I work with are expected to work well BY THEIR PARENTS, are expected to succeed, and don't get away with whining. I tell all my kids, boys and girls, whining doesn't work, screaming doesn't work, we're here to talk. Yet when the boys whine, it's like the parents say, "OH MY GOD HOW CAN I MAKE YOU HAPPY?"

I saw this translate over into the public school as well. It's always the school's fault, you are so mean to my son, etc., all because they are being held to a standard, and mom or dad don't think it's fair because it'll upset their son.

So, have schools changed and are they skewed against boys, or have parents changed? I don't know. I'm sharing my observations, and I'm eager to see how other people perceive things.

[tsuki]

87. Yep, zero tolerance for children, but Rush Limbaugh gets

a free pass. Makes sense.

And if you are a parent, it is always your fault. School and Parents forever in a fight. I thought if I heard one more teacher tell me, he needs to be "more responsible" I would puke.

That is why I took son out of government school in primary and placed him in Parochial school, where the adults (parents and teachers) are responsible. He was the kid. He did what he was told. And met a total brick wall when he didn't, learning disability or no.

[alarimer]

91. I agree with you that it may be the parents

Speaking anecdotally, in my own family, my brother, the only boy, was treated very differently. He got away with a lot of crap we never would have. He was basically a spoiled brat. As a result today he is unambitious, works a crappy job with no future and basically doesn't care. He is not stupid, yet he flunked out of TWO colleges.

Meanwhile, I worked my ass off and got straight A's and was barely praised for it.

[elehhhhna]

110. You hit it on the head, there.

In our neightborhood, which is probably mid-upper middle class, we have so many midle-school boys who can't speak properly and are in speech therapy in school. In 3 cases I know of, the kids CAN speak normally but have been and are still allowed to speak what essentially sounds like baby talk (can't say R's, W's, S's)around their parents. I guess that if the parents can understand them it's just fine.

[Carolinian]

188. Perhaps they should have had therapy earlier.

My son could not pronouce certain sounds when he was in K and he sounded like a baby. As his mother I never had any problem understanding him. His father stutters and was very upset over people mocking our son's speech. Fortunately it was corrected by speech therapy in the first and second grade but it was only by a stroke of luck that he was accepted.

When he was tested for speech, the therapist said the sounds he missed should have developed by age 3 and the child should correct his speech on his own, so he normally wouldn't qualify for therapy. However, she was currently working with a 12 year old who had the same missing sounds as my son and she absolutely could not make progress with the child at that age. She had turned down this same child for therapy in the first grade.

It could be that these boys problems have nothing to do with "babying" a child. I find it hard to believe they are in therapy but don't really have a problem. And my children all fell into baby talk from time to time but it never lasted more than a few minutes. I tried to understand that it was just acting out a growth transition.

[girl gone mad]

150. This was a problem not long ago in Japan.

Spoiled boys were collectively known as "little princes". Young boys were seen as so bratty and unruly that expecting couples prayed that their baby would be a girl, something very unusual in Asian culture, where for centuries boys have been prized.

I'm not sure if the trend is still ocurring, but it would be interesting to see how these boys have performed in school.

[Yupster]

172. Schools have definitely changed of course

and they've changed to the detriment of boys.

A lot of what I hear people saying on this thread is 'I understand the differences between boys and girls, but if the boys would just act like girls they wouldn't get into trouble.'

I know that's not what people mean, but that's what it sounds like to me.

[sonicx]

9. they do better academically, but still earn less than men.

that's a bigger question.

[Yupster]

61. There are many reasons for that

disparity, many of them very interesting, but that's another thread.

Just for one example, teachers are paid on a district pay scale where two teachers with 15 years experience and a master's degree make the exact same money.

Yet in every district, the average 40 year old male teacher makes more than the average 40 year old female teacher. How can this be when they are both paid on the same sexless pay scale?

The reasons are interesting, but should be on another thread rather than hijacking this one.

[AnIndependentTexan]

11. it's the gay agenda that is distracting them from showering together

That is why they are doing bad in GYM.

[distantearlywarning]

12. I notice this all the time.

Among other things, I teach undergraduates to write. After 4 semesters, I can now tell without looking at the name whether a term paper was written by a male or female student. How? Male students, far more often than female students, turn in papers that are ungrammatical, have punctuation errors, and verge on total incomprehensibility.

My male students are also significantly more likely to be the students that come late to class or miss it entirely, sit in the back and fool around, plagiarize, do work incorrectly or not at all and then provide excuses for themselves, and demand things from me in an "entitled" kind of way (all you teachers out there probably know what I mean by that).

95% of my best students in 2 years have been girls. I have had very few men even make As in my classes. The vast majority of the students I have failed have been male.

I assure you that I am not just some crazy feminist who hates men and interprets every male behavior as bad or stupid. I make every attempt to grade students fairly. And if I had any biases at all when I started teaching, it was probably against girls, because I tend to like men better than women interpersonally. I certainly do not hate men or male undergraduates.

But I must confess that I am starting to develop a prejudice against male students now, after my experiences of the past two years. Many of the male undergraduates I have taught, IMO, do not belong at college. They have neither the work ethic nor the temperament to succeed in the academic setting.

Edited for clarity.

[SheilaT]

31. Hmmm. How interesting.

You've made me think back to my various classes I've taken at the local junior college in recent years, and I'd say that most of the best students have likewise been women, and the poor ones guys.

[lawladyprof]

76. Help with writing for undergrads and others (if you have HS children)

Hi, Distantearlywarning. I've had great success with encouraging (requiring--LOL) my students to use the Paramedic Method (of editing). Just google it and you will find a number of web sites explaining it. Their writing is really improving and they tell me that they are now seeing and correcting errors as they compose. It would also work for HS students (for DU'ers who are parents) struggling with composition.

I'm also sending you a PM in case you don't come back to this thread.

[distantearlywarning]

126. Thanks, LawLady - I got your mail!

[SmokingJacket]

85. I also taught writing classes, and had the same experience.

I blamed it on the sports-worshipping, party-hearty atmosphere of the school. Many of the boys expected special treatment and exceptions made for them. One typical example: a bright kid, star wrestler, handed in a paper written from the top of his head with totally invented sources. I gave him a D instead of an F (in retrospect I should have flunked his ass; perhaps I'm part of the problem). He raised holy hell, said that since he was a good writer, which he was, he deserved a B at least -- so what if he made up his sources? Women students never did this -- not even the sports stars.

Incidentally, I used to get letters from the Learning Disabilities person telling me I should cut certain students some slack -- typically about one third of my students had these letters, and again, mostly boys.

This culture really does handle its boys with kid gloves. But why?

[distantearlywarning]

128. Interesting that you mention sports stars...

The best and brightest student in the summer course I taught this year was an African-American girl who was the star of the women's track team at my university. She had to miss several classes to go to national track meets, but was unfailingly responsible and courteous about letting me know when and why she wouldn't be in class, and she also did her homework for my class while she was "on the road". I was quite impressed with her.

Again, this has not been my experience with the male "sports star" students I have had. A few semesters ago, I was the TA for a course that just happened to have almost the entire men's soccer team in it that semester. All of them (with one exception, which I will talk about in a minute) barely passed the course, and complained endlessly about having to take tests the day before their games, having to do homework on weekends they had games, how hard the tests were, how unfair the female professor was, etc, etc, etc... That group of students drove me completely nuts that semester.

The one exception I referred to in the previous paragraph was one of the "stars" on this men's soccer team. He was actually a good student and received a grade in the low 90's in the course. Thinking back about those soccer players and about the "uncool" factor discussed on this thread reminded me of an incident that happened with those guys: one day I was administering a make-up exam for them because they had been out of town at a game on the day of the original exam. They were discussing among themselves how they had done on the previous exam, and all of them were laughing about how they got C's and D's. Then one of them noticed this player who actually was a good student, let's call him "Bob", and asked him how he had done. "Bob" says, "Oh, I think I got a B- or something". All the other players then razzed him about being a "suck-up" and all that. The punchline?: I graded his test, so I knew he got a 95. And he knew I knew it too, because when he said that, he gave me a look out of the corner of his eye that I interpreted as "please don't give me away".

Just a little anecdotal story there...

[AngryAmish]

173. Kinda begs the question

Why are they that way? You are perceiving what seems to be a widespread phenomenon.

My two cents is thus: Very few boys are taught what honor is. Restraint and self-sacrifice are contrary to my nature and most men/boys I have known. However, it must be taught and instilled, usually by fathers and male authority figures. The threat of violence by an older male is also a useful tool in teaching younger males respect and self-control.

[teach1st]

13. Why is this?

A shift in this thread away from the article's focus (which is that boys are having problems in school) to complaints about pay disparities and something about macho stuff not working anymore. That's changing the subject.

Looking at the problems boys have in school - and they are having problems - doesn't detract from problems that females have, but on every board I see this subject brought up, the problem is minimalized.

[NJCher]

15. exception might be

Young men at technical universities. What a smart group I had in my classes this semester.


Cher

[proud patriot]

16. Google the Book Real Boys

I forget the name of the author but it shows
why ... It's terribly sad.

[proud patriot]

33. aha I found it William Pollack is the author

Harvard clinical psychologist William Pollack cares about boys. His substantial and well-documented book, Real Boys, presents persuasive arguments for refusing to buy into what he calls the "boy code," the conditioning which induces us to be tougher on boys than we are on girls. We learn that we need not worry about lavishing "too much" love on our male children; the author shows us that it is a myth that doing so will lead to their growing up to be less masculine than we might desire.

Presenting us with numerous real-life examples typifying the struggles, triumphs, challenges and paradoxes of pre-adolescent and adolescent males, Pollack stresses that it is impossible to give too much love to any child. Boys who run into trouble will much more typically suffer instead from a lack of a male role model or from having been left to chart their own emotional waters at too young an age. Fathers can retain their unique parenting abilities while still being nurturing and staying attached, as the author strongly urges fathers to do. Be sure to split the role of disciplinarian with your partner, he counsels.

The book is peppered with numerous practical hints as to how to implement the overarching principle of loving our boys and supporting them up to any limits they may choose to set. It also includes a wealth of individual stories of real boys and their struggles. Some stories are deeply moving, others just as profoundly disturbing.


http://www.menweb.org/realboys.htm

[snoochie]

96. So... perhaps THIS is why boys are coddled intellecutally in this culture.

Because they're ABUSED emotionally.

Could it be similar to the spoiled child of divorced parents phenomenon?

[bemildred]

80. Excellent book. Sits next to my reading chair. nt

[LizW]

17. It's cool to be dumb

I have two sons who are both bright and capable. My older son especially has always done very well in school. He's in middle school now and it's becoming apparent that he is intentionally trying not to stand out as the "brainy" kid. He says he hates to make the highest grade, because the teachers praise whoever gets the best mark, and then the other boys taunt and tease as soon as the teacher's back is turned.

The "coolest" kids in school, the ones my son labels as the "popular" ones, are the football players and cheerleaders. The kid on my son's hall who is the star of the football team has an "entourage" that clears the way for him to pass in the hall.

And it's not just middle school kids -- look at Bush. Many claim to love him because he's a "regular", C student kind of guy. :eyes:

[sendero]

21. I understand this ....

... but you might try explaining to your kid that the jocks will be flipping burgers one day because that is all they are qualified to do.

In adulthoold, the women don't give a rats behind about who played football in high school, they want someone who can earn a decent living. School pays off, just not in the near term. And the sad fact is that IMHO Americans are all about the near term now and it is going to cost us all.

[phylny]

70. We pounded this idea into our girls' heads:

WHO GETS THE GOOD JOBS?

The ones who work hard in school. It's been our mantra, and it has worked well.

[abbadon]

118. But they DON'T wind up flipping burgers ...

..they wind up as CEOs, sales managers, and managers of the kids (male and female) who work hard on the academic side, and possess technical skills, but not the impulse to play golf or go to strip clubs

I have yet to work FOR someone who even really knew what Phi Beta Kappa means - though I have gotten the response, "they weren't on my campus" ... my cousin was in a frat, and they deliberated on some candidates as potential pledges because they would bring up the house average and "help with papers and stuff"

If I had it to do over again, I might learn to play golf and not believe what my parents told me about *my* hard work making a difference - from what I've seen, it's more often how well you can claim credit for other's work that makes a bigger difference

[milkyway]

37. You should make sure your older son is in a class that challenges him,

and it has other very bright kids in it. I have two sons, 9th grade and 7th. My youngest is very smart. He's in a math honors class in a quality public school in NYC, surrounded by other bright kids. He doesn't feel any pressure at all to dumb himself down.

Are you aware of the Johns Hopkins University's Center for Talented Youth program? It's meant for kids that are in the top 1-2% of their grade. They have summer programs and distance learning classes (online).

The summer residential programs begin at age 10. Kids that have high enough scores on whatever standardized test they have taken are qualified to take a test to get into CTY. They say the kids taking the test are in the top 3%, and about one third of those qualify for the summer program. The distance learning program has a lower scoring threshold. The test itself is well above grade level. 5th and 6th graders take a test meant for 9th graders. Obviously it's very difficult, but Johns Hopkins says by testing kids about things they haven't been taught yet is a better indicator of who the very bright kids are.

My son took the test while in 5th grade and did very well. He qualified for the summer program, so when he was ten years old he spent three weeks at Washington College in Maryland taking a course on Inductive and Deductive Mathematical Reasoning. There were 12 kids in the class, with one teacher and an assistant. When I saw his notebook at the end of the three weeks, I could not believe the amount of complex material these 10 and 11 year old kids had covered. My son loved every aspect of CTY, academically and even more so socially. He had a lot of fun being a ten year old living in a college dorm with a bunch of kids he never knew before.

This past summer he attended CTY at Mt. Holyoke in Massachusetts and took a Probability and Data course. His favorite thing he learned was how to count cards and figure the odds when playing blackjack in Vegas. My son's roommate was an 11 year old boy that had never been away from home before. When we saw him at the beginning of the summer session he was quite timid and apprehensive. But when we returned at the end of the session three weeks later, he was a completely different kid. He was running around having a great time.

I think finding out about CTY and getting my son in the program is the best thing I have ever done for him. To continue on in the summer program, kids in 7th grade or higher have to take the SAT and reach a certain score to qualify. He takes it tomorrow, the same test and in the same room as all the eleventh graders.

Johns Hopkins' program is only for kids in the Northeast states; other universities have similar programs that cover the other regions of the nation. I know Duke has one for the south. I believe Northwestern and Stanford have a similar program also. But wherever you are, there will be a university that serves your region with a program for gifted kids, both with summer programs and also online learning programs.

Here's the link for Johns Hopkins' program.
http://cty.jhu.edu/

Here's Duke:
http://www.tip.duke.edu/index.html

Here's Northwestern:
http://www.ctd.northwestern.edu/

If you are in a different region of the country and can't find a comparable program, let me know and I'll look for it.

[LizW]

98. Excellent info, thanks

We're in the Southeast and my son qualified for the Duke program, but he hasn't attended yet.

He is in AP math, and loves it, but unfortunately that is the only subject in his school that offers AP. I wish there were more.

One of his most challenging subjects is band. We are lucky to have a fabulous band director, and she constantly looks for areas for her students to stretch themselves and play in honors bands and ensembles. He loves it, and it gives him an opportunity to push himself to be better.

[milkyway]

147. I'm confused. I thought your son was in middle school, but you say

he's taking AP math. For us, middle school is grades 6-8, and AP courses are college courses. The honors math class in middle school is for kids a year ahead of their grade in math.

Even if you don't do the summer program, I'm sure Duke has distance learning classes he would find challenging. I know Johns Hopkins has writing classes and many other topics that sound interesting. The Johns Hopkins web site also has a wealth of information under Resources>Links to G/T Resources.

The school systems spend a lot of money on the lower end, as they should, but most schools do very little for the kids that are at the top end. My son is an outgoing, fun-loving kid, but in 5th grade, math became excruciatingly boring for him. It would almost drive him nuts having to listen to the teacher go over the same concepts day after day for weeks. That's what led me to look for something outside of school and to the Johns Hopkins program. That program, and being in an honors math program in 6th grade, really helped him.

[LizW]

161. Maybe different terminology

Here we call AP (advanced placement) any courses the kids have to test above a certain level to get into, and are taught at a higher grade level than they are. It's the same as what you're describing as honors math, but they don't call it that. If the children stay in these courses, eventually they will be taking college math in high school, which I guess is why people started calling it that. It's probably not technically correct terminology when referring to middle school.

[Carolinian]

184. Our school is small (K-12 w/400 students)

In the 5th grade our son was recommended to advance 2 grades in math. This meant taking courses at the high school when he was in 7th grade. I had my misgivings but gave it a try anyway. Though awkward at first, it worked out beautifully. It really helped his self esteem to work with the older kids and maintain top grades. He's certainly not a nerd and he's lazy as all get out at home, but he says he loves to come home and do his homework. So far so good.

[bobbieinok]

127. my son qualified for this but he totally rebelled against doing it

he refused to do anything that would set him further apart from other students

when in first grade, he'd been sent to second grade for reading, etc

[milkyway]

149. His reaction is common and understandable, but the Johns Hopkins program

offers many more courses than just "accelerated" courses. Most of the courses are enrichment courses rather than accelerated.

Accelerated courses teach a kid the same material the school does, but at an accelerated pace. The students consult with their school about getting credit and being placed in a higher grade level.

An enrichment course, on the other hand, teaches students material they will not be taught in school. It does not affect his class in school. The two summer courses my son has taken are enrichment courses. As a ten year old, he studied "Inductive and Deductive Mathematical Reasoning." He was learning about concepts that only a college math major would learn.

There are many interesting, challenging courses that you could do online or during the summer, that would not move him from the class he is in. I highly recommend checking out the CTY site, both for its course offerings, and also the vast resources it has under Resources>Links to G/T Resources.

Your son's reaction is what most very bright kids feel. I don't mean to sound snobbish, but it's not as big a problem where we live in NYC. Many kids here feel pressure to be smart and successful, rather than the opposite. Parents complain the kids are too stressed out from trying to be high achievers.

[Carolinian]

185. Why are we snobs when we discuss our gifted children? n/t

[cally]

164. One correction...the JHU program is nationwide

My daughter was in it and attended a session at Santa Cruz, California. Students take the test throughout the US. If they qualify, they can attend the programs throughout the US. I think it's a great program.

[milkyway]

168. I just double-checked. It's in 19 states, including California.

Most states are in the Northeast, but several are out west. Here's the info:

School/States: Students must be attending school or homeschool in AK, AZ, CA, CT, DE, HI, ME, MD, MA, NH, NJ, NY, OR, PA, RI, VT, VA, WA, WV, or DC to receive full Talent Search benefits.

For students living overseas, CTY has an International Talent Search.

For students living in states other than those listed, please contact one of the following organizations:

Talent Identification Program TIP at Duke University, 919-684-3847
Center for Talent Development CTD at Northwestern University, 847-491-3782
Rocky Mountain Talent Search RMTS at the University of Denver, 303-871-2533
Iowa Talent Search OPPTAG at Iowa State University, 515-294-1772

http://www.cty.jhu.edu/ts/grades78.html

[sandnsea]

38. Dumb, or equal to girls???

I see the cool to be dumb thing too, alot. A real disdain for boys to be educated. Much worse than it used to be, when boys were at the top of the class and girls pretended to be dumb.

Maybe boys can't handle being equal to girls, so they'd rather pretend education doesn't matter than to honestly compete and come up short.

[AngryAmish]

174. That always happened to me

Teach the kid how to fight and he will not get teased so much.

[Sparkly]

19. Interesting, especially compared with studies decades ago

It used to be that the standard curve was for girls to outperform boys academically up until puberty. At that point, girls' achievement fell off. The theory was that they became focused on dating, appearance, and appealing to boys. (It also wasn't that long ago when high school girls were pretty much expected to be housewives, and anything else was called being a "career girl," with the options of nurse, secretary, or teacher. So there wasn't typically an emphasis on girls' academic achievement in high school.)

So it's possible this new data is about girls believing they have more options and feeling confident about going after them. What is interesting is the article doesn't cite evidence that boys are now doing worse than boys did in the past on standard measurements; they are only falling behind in comparison with girls. Maybe it's just that social changes are revealing a natural superiority among girls. :shrug:

[VivaKerry]

22. Why? Because it doesn't matter how well they do!

They can do 40 percent worse than me in colllege and STILL make an extra $20K a year starting out... and double their income in a few years, and then again in a few years.

Because there is NO PRESSURE for men (white men) to be smarter, more efficient, more clever than the average woman.

Flame away, I will be sitting here under the glass ceiling...

[gorbal]

27. School is just cruel for some kids

We really should just change our schooling system. Keeping kids locked up in a building all day is just cruel for younger kids. Many don't even have recess.

[Boosterman]

40. Yeah wonder why some people

dont get promoted. Maybe its their attitude towards people. Ever consider that?

[VivaKerry]

78. LMAO, you showed me!!

Ack...so you ADMIT... the people who get promoted are the ones the boss "likes"... doesn't have much to do with talent or aptitude or ability... just the person the boss likes.

And me.. just a pissed off feminazi!! How did you get my number from one post>

Well, boosterMAN (I love the handle for this thread.. BOOST MEN, it;s like typecasting....)

[Carolinian]

82. Right. And some just can't look at their own shortcomings - just blame

whoever succeeds. But then again I guess that's just a normal reaction that we learn to control or get stuck in.

[Yupster]

60. Your post reminds me

of an old Saturday Night Live bit where Eddie Murphy made himself up to look white and found out that being white was a continuous party. Once the black guy left all the white guys would sto working and turn on the music and start dancing in the streets.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

157. I loved that skit too.

[Carolinian]

75. My white male son doesn't get preferred treatment. He's had

several teachers who obviously favored girls and made no effort to be fair between the genders. He and the other boys in his class have commented on it many times over the years.

BTW, don't blame him for his sex and race - he didn't have a choice in it. He doesn't deserve to have his opportunities or rights diminished because prior generations were male-dominated. You are building resentment when it should be torn down. Raise your children to embrace new opportunities - not stomp on others. Shame - shame.

[VivaKerry]

77. LOL, I can tell you are a very, very good mommy! LOL

Poor little baby boy.

[Carolinian]

81. I am a good mother. Thanks for the compliment.

And now I guess the battle is on.

[wickerwoman]

167. Interesting.

I used to teach college writing as well and I noticed that all the female teachers were targets of accusations of sexism while none of the male teachers were. I guess it's just easier to accuse your teacher of sexism than to read the assignment and turn in quality work.

Some things that got me accused of sexism?
-assigning 2 female writers out of six (obviously I must be on some kind of campaign to tear down male writers)
-asking students to read a broad spectrum of opinion on gender relations (they had a problem with even the most mildly feminist writers while unquestioningly accepting the male one)
-insisting that students call all authors by their last names instead of calling the female ones by their first name
-giving them a poor grade for poor work. It can't be because they turned in poor work, it must be because I'm a castrating bitch.
-insisting that all students talk including the quiet girls in the back.
-asking a student wearing a "Pimp Daddy" t-shirt to deconstruct the message he was spilling into my classroom.

As a result, I'm extremely cautious around broad statements like "My teacher just doesn't like me" or "she must be sexist". I'd say there's a fairly good chance this is just whining. I've never met a teacher who "just didn't like" one of their students. The only time I've disliked a student, they gave me a damn good reason.

[Nikia]

114. A little bit of an exaggeration but it has merit

See post 112#. From a purely economic point of view, girls need to do better in school to make more money, even a living wage, than boys. On a related note, males are assumed to be more competent in "male fields" which usually pay more than "female fields" so when it comes to hiring or promoting people with equal qualifications on paper, the male will have the advantage. This is one reason why I support affirmative action.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. As a former college professor, I agree with the part about

anti-intellectualism.

It's not cool to be academically accomplished. It's cool to be athletic and tough, but not to be smart.

Except for one year in a temporary position at an Ivy League school, I taught in very Middle American colleges and universities. The predominant mode of male student was what my colleages and I at one school called "the baseball cap crowd." They walked around in sweats and baseball caps, looking slack-jawed, studying as little as possible, lacking any intellectual curiosity, and devoting their full energies to sports, drinking, and chasing women. I once jokingly asked a psych professor at lunch whether any research indicated that baseball caps caused brain damage. He spit out his coffee all over the table.

I used to enjoy the Wayne's World sketches on Saturday Night Live, because the characters of Wayne and Garth seemed like slightly exaggerated versions of the students I was encountering. Yet I wonder now if the students were (gulp!) taking Wayne and Garth as role models.

[Nevernose]

43. I just spit coffee out all over the table

And isn't that what intro courses are for? To weed out the cap-wearers?

And could I make a good thesis out of the cap-wearing thing? Of course, it would have to conatin a colon or semi-colon; all good master's theses contain a colon semi-colon.

[realisticphish]

51. Excellent!

we are not worthy!
we are not worthy!


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[bo44]

99. More of a reflection. Also those braindeads are now probably cops,

firefighters, prison guards, probation officers, forklift drivers and costco cashiers plus they are likely street soldiers for the BFEE and Commander Bunnypants. These jobs require no more literacy and intellectual skill than what they used to skate through school.

[Sputnik]

121. Hold your horses

No, none of the careers you mentioned above are the academic equal of being a nuclear physicist, but they are still necessary jobs in our society.

My husband is a police officer and the amount of information they have to learn and retain is boggling, particularly to earn promotions for which they have to study and are tested. They aren't all dummies, though when you see the situations that both police officers and firefighters routinely enter into that might be debatable.

No, they aren't teaching literature or chemistry at a university, but their jobs involve skills and a level of bravery that most university professors don't possess. Who rushed into the WTC buildings on 9/11?

I know you probably didn't mean to demean these professionals, but it did come across that way.

[bo44]

122. Certainly did not try to demean. I am a Former detention supervisor

at a juvenile facility. I hired and fired trained and supervised many young men and women fresh from college. Many of the men were former jocks with incomplete educations but with the skills and talents you speak of in your post. My problem with these guy were there lack of writing skills and knowledge of the fundamentals of behavior management and treatment. Stuff they should of learned in school. Many of these guys were getting by on street smarts and common sense gleaned from being an athlete. Female newbies were more polished and astute in the big picture of working in the organization and their place in it. Female staff that fit this bill were in possession of their college diplomas. A balanced professional in my field is street smart, tough as nails, and a person of letters and science.

"No, they aren't teaching literature or chemistry at a university, but their jobs involve skills and a level of bravery that most university professors don't possess. Who rushed into the WTC buildings on 9/11?"

You help illustrate my point with your comment above. The intangible nature of bravery and it's acquisition of such is not necessarily learned in a book, in a lecture hall or on discussion forum. The stereotypical kid mentioned in the original post I believe knows this to be true and devalues the stacking of solid analytical skills, possession of broad and deep foundation of his professions principles and a global world view on top of his courage, can do kick ass capabilities. And when they do not we are faced with public safety personnel who can be easily molded by the specious motives of their peers and supervisors. Not counting maniacs like Karl Rove.

[Sputnik]

131. An in an odd coincidence

My husband was also a college athelete. Though he is a former athlete and chose law enforcement as a career, certain jobs he's had within the department have included being able to write and speak coherently. The chief of police has even had my husband write his speeches on occasion.

My husband is now a shift supervisor. He and his immediate boss are sticklers not just for procedures, but also in how reports must be written. I went to school with his boss who was a brilliant student. He was acknowleged by our teachers as having a level of intelligence that was "off the charts." His knowlege on a wide variety of topics is stunning. It is common knowlege that he (and only he) has aced every promotional exam he's ever taken. Yet, though he is a "brain" he also was a longtime commander of the S.W.A.T. team (during the time my husband served there).

You are probably right that an athletic background is beneficial to certain types of professions, such as law enforcement, military, firefighting, etc. My husband has often commented that the discipline and physical skills he learned through years of competing athletically have helped him in his career. But I don't believe that possessing such skills precludes a person from being intelligent in other ways.

I'm not implying that all those who go into law enforcement are geniuses.....far from it, actually. But the law enforcement mentality is apparently changing. Before my husband was hired, the investigator assigned to his background check, interview, etc., expressed reservations because of my husband's size, saying that the department was long gone from the days of hiring physically-intimidating brutes and instead prefers now to hire applicants with academic strengths. Fortunately (or unfortunately, I'm still not sure) they decided to hire him anyway after his background and interviews were completed.

Since you've worked in that field, you know there are a variety of people who enter into and succeed in law enforcement careers, just as in any other field. We both know that many in our society however tend to lump all "cops" together. Knowing so many local, state, and federal law enforcement people as we do, I still haven't found the stereotype that applies to them all.

.....interesting topic to me, though. Thanks for your comments. :)

[Baclava]

29. It's a vast undergroung male plot

It started back when the first padded plush couches came out...
Men saw they were paying for something they would never enjoy and could only wistfully think: someday my boy will inherit that...

...and so the conspiracy began...knowledge passed along in the dark smoky back porches, over the fence to like-thinking males up and down the block..."we must save the boys"

The plan expanded from such humble beginnings and now you see coming its fruition...the salvation of the next generation of the XY's.

"Let the women work" "Let them bring home the bacon" "Where's my couch"

[grasswire]

30. could it have anything to do ...

....with a relatively larger amount of time spent playing playstation or computer games by boys?

Just asking.

[wickerwoman]

32. I think many of them give up early.

Boys mature more slowly than girl do. An average six year old boy starting first grade is significantly behind the average six year old girl in the skills that translate into school success- verbal ability and being able to sit still six or seven hours a day. So he doesn't do as well. And maybe he gets frustrated and left behind. Maybe he gets held back a year, loses all self-esteem and decides he's stupid. Or he decides other things (like sports ability or popularity) are more important.

I don't agree that we need to go back to segregated classrooms, but I do think we need to examine the assumption that all kids should be ready to enter the same kind of classroom at the same age. Wouldn't it make more sense to teach 6-9 year olds the way we teach college students? Test their abilities in any given subject and then put them in mixed-age classrooms based on the result. An eight year old boy who is finally ready to learn reading will learn in one year what a six-year old who isn't ready will learn in three. And without the resulting damage to self-esteem and enjoyment of learning.

[lovuian]

35. This is a serious problem because we don't want illiterate Men

They are important to society!!!

If you have dumb men then your society will be dumbed down and thats not good!!!

There 50% of the population!!!

I think ritalin is part of it. This generation of boys have been way medicated plus there has been more attention given to the girls which has proved a success but alas the boys have been left behind!!! This could be something that can destroy a civilization!!!

[Boosterman]

41. Ritalin

and Playstation combined perhaps?

[Yupster]

55. A few other factors

First, I think ritalin is very important. What used to be just "being a boy" is now cause for medication. The fact is that boys run and jump and whoop and holler more than girls. Always have. Always will if they're not medicated.

I think it's a crime that schools are getting rid of recess and are reducing gym. Girls may not care, but boys need that time to run and whoop. I think schools are subconsciously beating the boy out of boys.

I think a good chunk of the reason for this is that the staff in elementary schools is overwhelmingly female. I don't think there's anything malicious, but it's only logical that black teachers will relate easier to black students, jewish teachers to jewish students and female teachers to female students. It used to be there were more male teachers and the leadership was male. Not any more. In some elementary schools, the only males you see are the custodians.

A point from my own past still bugs me. I was in about third grade when I was sitting in the last row of the class. My female teacher walked by and absolutely screamed (that's how I remember it today anyway). In a flash I was in the office. You see, I was sharpening my pencil with my pocketknife.

I explained to the male principal that I, as a good cubscout had my pocketknife card which still had all it's corners attached showing I had passed all the requirements allowing me to have a knife and could prove I had been safe in its use. The principal gave me back my knife and said not to use it during that class and calmed me down. No one can convince me that wasn't a male-female difference.

Luckily that was decades ago. Today the principal would likely be female too, I would be suspended for violating the no tolerance policy and would probably be on ritalin.

When I went to school, we'd go out to the field and the boys would chase each other playing cops and robbers or army. Today that couldn't happen because the gun part would get you sent to the office and the recess is gone anyway.

On the positive note, this has come up many times on DU for discussion. This is the first time there haven't been posts to the effect of. "poor boys - they have it so rough" "It's because boys cann't compete equally with girls cause they're morons." and "listen to the boys who have everything whining."

Maybe there's some progress being made.

[AP]

63. What do any of those things have to do with college performance?

[snoochie]

103. It may impact the students ability to form an appreciation for learning?

Cause the student to perceive education as unplesant?

Might this not be part of the reason for anti-intellectualism?

[AP]

138. People who get into college are more

or less on the same level, relative to the quality of the college.

When the students get into college, you'll have men and women from different high schools (boys from great public schools that didn't cut gym, girls from the bottom of their class at Choate) and neither would be hurt by the fact that colleges don't have gym class or mean girl principles. Yet the differences continue in college.

I think there's another explanation.

[bobbieinok]

129. my bro taught 3rd-5th grade for many years

things he noted....

--in-service workshops were led by women, teaching ideas were things that appealed to girls

--as a result of such observations, he thought a lot about his own schooling...how as a boy a lot of time the explanations by women teachers did not make sense to him

[Midlodemocrat]

145. As a former teacher`

...I think female teachers misunderstand boys, especially if they are not parents themselves. I have seen behaviors on the part of teachers/aides, that is almost criminal towards boys, who are, as you stated, just being boys. When my son was in first grade, he got in a fight with another child, who jumped him while my back was turned. I spoke to the teacher about it, because apparently, it had been going on at recess as well. The next day, I think to cover up for her own inadequacy in handling it, she told me that he had been using bad language. Well, I was mortified and we talked about it at dinner. This sweet little boy told me that the two who were picking on him were telling him to yell 'dick' before he went down the slide as a password. After a little discussion about why that was inappropriate, he stated, "I don't know why they had me yell, dick, there is no one in our class named Dick". Funny? Yes, but enlightening that the teacher had automatically assumed he was using profanity and led me to believe it as well.

[wickerwoman]

52. I'm still not seeing the "girls get more attention" thing in real life.

Can anyone cite a specific example of girls getting more attention in class than boys?

Because in my own experience it was quite the opposite. There were one or two talkative boys who set the agenda in class, three or four "bad boys" who disrupted whenever possible, and a whole mess of girls sitting with their mouths shut or getting interrupted or ignored as soon as they opened them.

[AP]

34. Boys are told they're entitled to succeed without working (see Bush).

In college, that attitude can burn you.

[Boosterman]

42. Yeah that happens all the time

/endsarcasm

[AP]

44. It happens when they think about how Bush became president.

[Boosterman]

45. But Boys aren't smart enough to think of that

No offense meant but don't compare my sex (male) to Bush simply because of a chromosome difference.

[AP]

46. These are the lessons culture teaches boys.

Girls have to work hard for everything. But -- fish rots from the head -- Bush tells us that you can succeed merely because you're entitled by race and gender.

Why do you think boys and girls show up on college campuses and girls are ready to work and boys get left in the dust?

What's your theory?

(Oh, and not offense taken -- not even by "endsarcasm".)

[Boosterman]

66. I took offense to your tone

and being told that Boys are told they are entitled to succeed(like Bush). You seem to be very pro female and thats fair. Just dont associate my whole sex w/ Bush. Oh and by the way if you read the article it refers to 9th grade and above.

My actual theory is simple. mostly female teachers who wont put up with boyish behavior and have whipped them into submission. Of course they are confused. (now didnt that sound bigoted)

[sonicx]

67. they *are* being told they are entitled to succeed

nevermind Bush...

if you see women doing better in school, yet make less money than men, what is that saying to men?

btw, whipping students into submission would mean they should be doing better not worse.

[phylny]

71. Since when HAVEN'T most of the teachers been female?

I don't think that much has changed since I went to school, way back when.

[AP]

84. Today the ratio of female to male teachers might be lower thant it used

to be.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

105. I was a hyperactive child-and a victim of 'boys will be boys'

I had a lot of energy-this was in grammar school-and the boys who were much more destructive and ill-behaved got away with way more bad behaviour than me. I didn't have a male teacher until middle school-these were all females who were constantly yelling at me and sending me to the principal. The school authorities suggested I be put on ritalin, but my parents refused.

I was no where NEAR as bad as the boys who lit things on fire, threw books, and kicked fellow students. I was not violent, just very verbal and overly curious. By 4th grade, I had calmed down a bit. I ended up doing very well academically, as long as I was STIMULATED. I'm still easily bored.

I think that may be part of the reason that boys these days are falling behind. They are constantly stimulated by too much TV, too many video games and sports. If there was a way to make learning exciting, maybe they would do better. But again, it's up to the parents to teach kids self-control.

[girl gone mad]

152. I had a similar experience in school..

boys were allowed to get away with more bad behavior. Girls were given more limits. There were times when a boy would do something destructive and it was often overlooked, the message being: boys just can't help themselves.

I grew up in an upper middle class town. Parents often had more money than sense, and little time to spend with their children. There was a lot of permissiveness, and a lot of kids (boys and girls) out of control. At school, I think girls were more afraid of getting in trouble than boys, for whatever reason. A lot of the boys just didn't care about getting detention. Again, I think if the boys were acting out in school, the parents were sometimes willing to overlook it. Girls were more afraid of having their parents find out that they had gotten in trouble.

[sonicx]

54. generally, it's true...

Men can get ahead without college more easily than women.

otherwise, women would be earning more money.

[Yupster]

57. In twenty years

women will be making more money. What's happening in the school will show up in adult life soon enough.

[Yupster]

56. Isn't that the same as

African-Americans do poorly in class because they're lazy?

If a group of children is lagging can't we try to find out why and help them? You really think insults are the answer?

[AP]

62. How is that an insult? Why do you think boys aren't performing as

well? It's defninitely not biological. It crosses all demographic groups and classes, so it doesn't have a regional basis, and doesn't have to do with money.

What's left? What is the thing that all boys and girls are exposed to? Popular culture. And what does popular culture tell boys, especially since Bush became president? It tells boys that if you're a man you deserve to succeed without working hard. But it tells women if you expect anything in life, you're going to have to work for it, because nobody is going to hand you anything.

George Lakoff says that Bush's message to the world is that if your a man, you're entitled to succeed, and if you fail it's because a black person, a woman or an immigrant was given something that should have been yours.

I think we're all big Lakoff fans here, right? Well, let's assume he's right that this is the message bush is sending out. Do you really think its impact stops at the voting booth? What's so crazy about thinking that a lot of boys go to college and act on that message that they're entitled to succeed and that if they don't it's because someone else got something they deserved?

And if they go to college in that frame of mind, do you think that's a strategy that is rewarded with good grades? Nope. Women who aren't in that frame of mind are going to be busy in the library working hard.

[sonicx]

64. that's not the same at all...

what you just said is a stereotype on the blacks themselves. AP is saying that boys are getting bad messages.

a better comparison would be that blacks are being told they can skip school as long as they can rap or play a sport.

[CTLawGuy]

144. if they're

not on the list of approved protected groups, they are ok to insult.

[CTLawGuy]

142. oh, no they're not

thats a silly statement.

[Nevernose]

36. The Latino drop-out rate

Latinos drop out at a 70-80% rate, whereas Latinas drop out at about 50%.

This is against conventional wisdom, which has Latinas dropping out early because of teenage pregnancy. It almost goes without saying that for either sex this rate is too high, but especially for males.

If you're reading this and are an Hispanic male, and happen to be looking for a new job, we desparately need you as a teacher. You'll get shit for respect from Anglo-America, and you'll be horribly underpaid :), but in the final accounting your life will have meant something.

http://ccsd.net/jobs/
Contact me for specific information for alternate licensure/degree information.

[Hippo_Tron]

47. Girls work harder

I make good grades and work fairly hard but the girls in my class tend to work much harder than I do, have better study skills, and are much better organized.

[JohnnyCougar]

69. video games

[sherilocks]

72. Maybe the premise of the report is incorrect?

Check out the PDF file for scores. They are virtually the same for men and women.


http://www.fairtest.org/

[KlatooBNikto]

73. I have three boys and five girls. After they moved to Middle School,

I removed all TV watching during the weekdays and put them on a strict diet on movie going.Both the boys and the girls have been overachievers academically. They have maintained Above average grades throughout their high school years, have excelled in sports of their choice,the girls have done well in music, ballet and writing.

I think parents need to step in and set limits on their outside activities that prove to be distractions.That alone will change the picture.

[Carolinian]

74. Agreed. You said your girls excelled but what about the boys?

Mine has the most trouble with creative writing and languages.

[KlatooBNikto]

159. My boys have excelled in business school, medical school and

engineering school.Fortunately, the tuition tsunami did not hit me at the same time.I am going to die broke but slowly.

[Massacure]

No TV watching durings weekdays? That's harsh.

I Sooooo love the history channel. Hell, at times I make my history teacher look like a damn fool. :evilgrin:

[KlatooBNikto]

160. I watch that too.But the kids are forbidden to watch anything. They whine

but know that plus a dime won't get them a cup of coffee in our home.

[Lone_Wolf]

89. The US Educational philosophy is flawed...

Public schooling was initially set up to train people how to work in factories. That is, how to follow directions, how to be on time, not to be disruptive, and to indoctrinate children with beliefs like hard work makes you successful, etc. What really irks me is when teachers make a bigger deal about students being late for class than the student not mastering the material. Something is wrong with this.

All children, but boys in particular, are active learners. In nature, children are wired to be active. You don't see children sitting around in groups listening to adults. Instead you see them playing. Our educational system does not take this into account and treats them all like passive learners. It is unnatural for them to sit in a classroom for hours and learn.

Make education more active (hands on) and you'll go a long way in helping children learn and getting off Ritilin.

[amazona]

90. isn't it the drugs?

They're drugging the heck out of active kids, which often means boys.

Girls have always had a slight edge academically, and had to be held back artificially. Now it's the boys who are being held back and quite aggressively with the re-labeling of normal male behavior as a disease such as ADD. I once read an argument in the 70s that women evolved to be a bit smarter because we have to be in a state of nature to take care of the young for many years...shrug...might be opening a can of worms with that argument though. This essay did predict that if society changed to encourage more women to attend college, etc. that women would eventually out-strip men academically. So hmmm.

[Massacure]

92. I know why. It is called being LAZY.

I'm 16, and it seems like almost all the guys at my school copy their homework from each other, whereas a lot of the ladies seem to do their own.

Of course, if you don't do your homework, your not going to do well on your test. Then when the next chapter comes, you haven't ironed out the old chapter, and it snow balls.

I get laughed at when I tell them they will never get anywhere in life by cheating. :(

[snoochie]

93. I think because boys and girls learn differently, and most of the focus

in the last few decades have been on girls. I think after people realized how poorly girls were being educated, there was an overcompensation, which has left boys in the lurch now.

[smirkymonkey]

97. Macho culture/Anti-Intellectualism of our current society.

Basically, tough guys don't do books.

[lawladyprof]

101. I agree and

to a large extent the popular culture emphasizes the adulation/rewards that non-intellectuals receive. While some respect is paid to intelligent and/or well-educated people it pales in comparison to that paid to those who have made it financially (often by being street-smart or savvy, especially pop culture stars and athletes.

Another factor may be the rise/increasing respectability of fundamentalism with its emphasis on the constellation of macho/patriarchal values, its predilection for emotionalism, and its disdain for reason and intellectualism.

A related phenomenon (and I read about this somewhere) is the repeated mantra by right-wing politicians and commentators of "you just need common sense (see, for example the trailers for Scarborough (spelling?) County--'only common sense is allowed') don't need no stinkin' experts."

[Lefty48197]

100. I guess homeschooling by Limbaugh and Hannity doesn't work afterall

Whoda thunk?

[leftofthedial]

102. because getting edumacated has nothing to do with learning how

to kill "terrists" over in the Middle East.

We need them ignorant and unable to exercise college deferments.

[amazona]

106. but college deferments are no more

Maybe there is no reason for boys to work hard.

I've thought about it a bit more, and I'm wondering where is the pay-off for going to college and amassing tens or hundreds of thousands in debt? I know a lot of guys who never got a "real" job because they were nerd-types and the whole engineering/computers/math/science thing has really crashed -- too many people chasing too few opportunities these days. So why bother to get these degrees if the pay-off is just debt and working on the same construction site you could have been working at straight out of high school?

Most girls don't have the physical strength to do construction jobs or whatever so they have to pursue the paper even if they aren't ever going to make the amount of money they hoped for.

[Nikia]

112. Women have to do better academically to make decent money

Many new college graduates have difficulty getting good jobs these days. Browsing the classifieds, one finds in my home area that a person with a 4 year degree (even a science degree) and under 2 years experience will start at $10-$12 an hour. I realize that there are more ways to get jobs than classified ads but many people from working class backgrounds don't have the networking advantage to get better jobs. There are also a number of jobs in the classified ads that pay that much or more for entry level heavy labors jobs (must be able to lift up to 75-100 pounds). Other jobs paying at that level or more might not be as labor intense and more technical but are traditionally male fields. Traditional female fields such as clerical and childcare positions generally pay under $9/hour. Light industrial positions often pay little also. Just by reading these ads and pay rates, one could conclude that if you are female, that you will make more if you get a 4 year degree. If you are male, you have other options that will pay at the same level or more if you begin work immediately or perhaps gets a technical certificate.

[snoochie]

108. I thought I read that this same thing was happening in the UK.

[mainer]

109. as a mom of two sons, i'm sorry to say it, but ... they're lazy.

When my boys were in high school, all the super achievers in their school were girls. Girls were more meticulous about doing their homework and meeting deadlines. Quite simply, the girls put more effort into it. I had a conversation with a male science teacher, and he said the same thing -- the girls are putting in the hours, while the boys just sit back and looked over the girls' shoulders.

I once caught my own son calling up a girl and asking her for the answers to a homework assignment. To her credit, she told him exactly where to go.

But in college, things seem to change a bit, and my boys finally began to put their noses to the grindstone. I think it's a matter of boys maturing a little later. Nevertheless, to this day, my sons think of girls as the "smart ones."

Which begs the question: when are we women going to take over the world?

[chaska]

111. If anyone is really intereted in an answer to this question...

I would suggest you read 'My Ishmael' by Daniel Quinn.

[neebob]

113. My sophomore boy isn't struggling

gets As and Bs, as a rule, and the infrequent C. He could be a straight-A student if he wanted to. He does all his homework, but tends to big bomb tests in classes he doesn't like - I think because he doesn't like to read, even though he can do it perfectly well - and, in general, puts more energy into his social life. And that's OK with me, as long as he keeps his grades up. I'm glad he's enjoying high school ... or I should say his teenage years, because I don't think he really likes school. It's just something he does because he knows his future depends on it. He'd rather go snowboarding every day.

Last year, he won an award for having the highest score of all ninth graders who took one of two math classes. Suddenly, this year, that class is too hard.

I don't know about other boys, but I suspect mine gets a lot of breaks - from men as well as women - because of his looks and physical stature. I think the same is true of most of his male friends. If they're decent looking and perceived as cool and do most of the work and stay out of trouble, they get by.

My theory is the ones who are struggling are either too busy trying to be cool or are judged more harshly on the work they do.

[Astarho]

124. Many factors

I think the anti-intellectual attitude prevelent in this country (and it isn't anything new) is a large part of it.

I remember when I was in school, I was usually one of the smartest ones in the class, but because I was shy (and being picked on because of it probably made me more antisocial), I was stuck in classes with the dumb kids. I remember once student, a girl incedentally, who was taking a class for the fourth time. This was a class I literally slept through and got straight A's. With minimal effort, I was 28th in my class. I also loved to read anyway, which is where I learned the most.

Another factor is the schools are set up badly. I remember when I was in 6th grade I had a brief conversation with two girls. They loved school so much but I didn't, because I realized instead of being stuck inside, I could be outside having fun, rather than here with a lot of ppeople I didn't want to be around, learning things I either already knew or didn't care about. I give credit to all the teacher who could actually make their subjects interesting.

In HS, I had a teacher who would assign homework every night and might check to see if we did it the next day or might not. Another would assign reading and then give poorly worded tests about it the next day that we would ineviatbly fail, and then she would take us to task about how bad we've been doing and how her other classes did better (eventhough they got the answers from us). All this led to my big disillusionment, ie, this whole thing was crap, and I stopped caring. I never went to collage after that and don't consider it a loss either.

I worked with a girl who had a masters degree and made the same $6.50 an hour that I did. But guys could always go to the big cities and get jobs in construction at fifteen or twenty dollars and hour, so I can see why not as many boys go to collage.

I think it comes down to motivation. The girls in the past few years have gotten very motivated and the boys have lost motivation.

[bobbieinok]

132. somewhat similar to an article in the Economist some years ago

it said that all over the world, including third world, young men were doing badly......in many places, they were not even in school

this was seen as a major change for the third world compared to 20 years ago

some of the suggested reasons.....more and more 'school-learning' jobs can be done by women or men.....the only places males are rewarded for being males are in jobs requiring physical strength (like construction)

the conclusion: many young men around the world feel that society no longer has a role for them to play 'as men'

would sure like to find that article

maybe that's why some young men in third world countries may become terrorists....here they can play the 'stereotypical strong male role'

[jmowreader]

130. Males and females learn differently

Part of my job is teaching woodworking and carpentry.

I can show a woman what to do with a nailer and she'll be able to do it.

I must put the nailer in a man's hands to teach him properly.

The Army's Training and Doctrine Command's credo is "tell me and I will forget, show me and I may remember, involve me and I will understand." This is exactly how you must teach males.

This, unfortunately, does not lend itself to high-stakes testing. The kind of training that is adaptable to standardized testing is also the kind that favors females, which is why females are gaining on males.

I think the real solution is to go back to segregated classes for the "hard stuff"--reading, writing, literature, science. In a segregated situation you can teach boys and girls in the ways that work best for each gender. This is expensive and it runs counter to the integration we've tried in schools over the last 50 or so years...but when we integrate, someone gets left behind. We taught the right way for males, and females fell behind. Now we teach the right way for females, and males are falling behind.

[Threedifferentones]

133. This problem is very complex, and may take decades to solve.

I graduated from high school last year, and in my school the Honors and AP classes always had more girls than boys, often by a very big margin. I would imagine that the Honors classes were probably 70% female. Girls also dominated student government, and 8 0f the top 10 students from my class were girls. However, I do not once remember any of the over-achieving girls mentioning the pay discpreancy between men and women today as a motivation for working harder, nor do I remember any indication that the boys in my school somehow felt their gender or race entitled them to success. It is undeniable, however, that for whatever reason the students that worked the hardest tended to be female and the students that worked the least tended to be male.

[Darth_Kitten]

134. Men still outearn women....

the only way women can close the gap is becoming as educated as they can.....
Men can get good paying jobs without necessarily getting much higher education. It doesn't seem to work that way for women, we need the higher education to move into the fields that pay more.....

Just my take....

[Lorien]

141. Work twice as hard and twice as well

to earn half as much. That's my experience.

[Oak2004]

139. There is a much more sinister possibility here

Men are far more vulnerable to neurological deficits than women are, because they have only one set of genes in the Y chromosome as opposed to the double set that women have in the X chromosome. This fact is widely understood by geneticists and neurology researchers, and this is reflected in the greater incidence of conditions like autism, ADD, and schizophrenia among men than women.

My initial reaction to reading this was "what's loose in the environment?". I wonder if anyone is doing an epidemiological study on this, to try and find out. An epidemiological study might confirm or refute my guess here, and would uncover some clues as to what the offending toxin might be, if such a thing exists.

Even the most ardent lesbian separatist would have reason to want to find out what's causing this. Men are more vulnerable to neurological mutations, but, sooner or later, if the offending toxin(s) exist and are not identified, women will be affected, too, and the human race itself will start to dumb down.

[Lorien]

143. See post #116 and #140

environmental contamination is having a real effect on behavior in other species, as well.

[phylny]

146. Interesting thought

and there might be something to it.

I work with a lot of children with autism, and a year or so ago, I ran across something - don't remember where - where the author/speaker postulated that kids with autism may be like canaries in a coal mine. They may be more genetically prone to developing a neurological syndrome, and they are the first amongst us to show the effects of whatever it is in our environment that's toxic or lethal.

Scary.

[Guaranteed]

148. I think education has become more "social."

You have to be able to get along with people nowadays more to do well in school. Pretty faces and smiles help a lot.

[BOOGEX]

156. I agree. I think that's true of getting ahead in society in general

and maybe boys are picking up on that, and putting more emphasis on socializing than studying?

[Threedifferentones]

151. Men do out earn women, and this is totally unfair.

What I am saying, though, is that I do not think that the girls and boys making the grades today have that on their minds when they decide how hard to work. I'm sure grown men and women in the working world take this into account when doing their jobs, but in my experience this does not influence the students of today, at least on a conscious level.


3DO

[BOOGEX]

154. Is it uncool for boys to study & work hard?

I finished high school in the late 90s; college was a few years ago. I'm male, and I'm curious if any other men have noticed this. In my schools, starting in junior high through high school, there was an implicit condemnation of studying hard, working hard, and being "bookish." Perhaps this was only limited to my particular class at my particular schools, but it was definitely there. I thought it was interesting in light of this information about boys' poor academic performance. Basically, in my experience, it was uncool to be smart and study. It wasn't masculine in a sense. It was cooler to be tough, to cheat, to get ahead with as little work as possible (as some others have mentioned), and to put on an air that you were above school and it doesnt get to you.

[AngryAmish]

178. It was the same in the mid 80s

It has always been the same.

[BOOGEX]

155. Is cheating on the rise?

Come to think of it, cheating was big at my schools too. Is it more common now to cheat than it was in the past? Are more boys cheating than girls? In my experience, it was cool to cheat, and helped one get by without putting in too much effort, which was also important.

[NC_Nurse]

162. I agree with Lorien's posts

Male fetuses are much more vulnerable to defects than females because of their chromosomal makeup. There is a five to one ratio of boys to girls in the occurrence of autism, which is incresing dramatically worldwide.
I believe that environmental pollutants are at least partly responsible for this increase and the Bush administration has been attempting to roll back the clean air act and other environmental protections which will only increase these pollutants. One of the key pollutants, Mercury, is increasing in our lakes and streams which is why fish, esp. salmon and trout, have been higher in mercury than previously. One in 12 pregnant women has a blood level of mercury over what is considered safe. Mercury poisoning has the same symptoms as autism.
The "Clear Skies" act that the a'hole administration has pushed will allow more mercury to be pumped into the air by power plants nationwide.
I think this is only the beginning of the problems we will see with children, first in boys and then in girls, if this sort of polluting is allowed to continue.

[Dastard Stepchild]

163. A link to the actual report...

I didn't read it yet, but here it is for those that are interested.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2005016

This may have something to do with the problem:
"Evidence suggests that females are less likely than males to have certain problems, such as being diagnosed with a learning disability and being victimized at school, which may negatively affect their progress through school (The Condition of Education 1997, NCES 97-388). In 1999, males in grades 1-5 were more likely than females to have been identified as having a disability (21 percent vs. 14 percent, respectively; indicator 12). In particular, males were more likely than females to have been identified with a learning disability, emotional disturbance, and speech impediment."
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2005/equity/Section3.asp

[Lorien]

166. I know plenty of people, including myself, who were brutally bullied

in school and still did well academically. I had a speech impairment (due had a facial deformity growing up, and have had surgery since. My father is speech impaired and has a Ph.D). I'm also slightly dyslexic, like most Americans, and still never had serious problems with my grades. I still maintain that there is more to this than cultural factors, and it's rather ominous.

[Dastard Stepchild]

189. Oh sure... I agree...

As I said, I really haven't read the report, nor have I really given it a modicum of thought - too busy writing finals papers :)

But, the snippet I included is but one piece of the puzzle, and provides a piece of empirical evidence to support the claims. I was bullied viciously as well while in grade school, and a bit into high school, and I seem to be doing just fine myself.

Educational policy and research is a fascinating subject area. Not my own personal research interest, but an interesting read nonetheless.

cheers...

[infusionman]

165. Because...

Supposedly every seven seconds they are distracted by thoughts
of sexual pleasure.

[Kipepeo]

179. Women get paid less than men (Why?)

According to that article women are doing better in high school and college now but still make less than their male counterparts when they get a job. Why?

Women are severely underrepresented in government and business. We've never had a female president. Why?

[Turd Ferguson]

180. ...

Let me first say that this post is pretty awesome. This is something I haven't really thought a whole lot about but I think everyone needs to.

I'm also probably not the best person to preach about this because I never really cared about my grades in high school. I knew I was smart, I'd do well on my ACT and I'd be able to go to whatever college I wanted to so I didn't really bother with high school too much. I wish that I had now that I'm in college. It's not that I make bad grades at this point, it's that I just don't have very good study habits.

To be popular in high school if you're a guy, you have to be somewhat anti-intellectual, you have to call things "gay", even if they're just objects, and just do stupid things like that. I did, and was pretty popular, but I wish I had been a little less stupid in high school. High school is a strange time. It seems that even though girls do better, they absolutely hate it, or at least moreso than boys do.

As far as the entire educational system as a whole, I really think the absense of a male role model is one of the main problems boys face in society today. Thus they turn to athletes or musicians for guidance and many athletes and musicians are certainly not in the place to be giving out advice to young boys. I don't think teachers(or a lot of teachers, I don't want to generalize) really fully understand the problem that kids have. When we volunteered in high school last year at an elementary school, I realized just how many kids don't have strong role models and how important it is for their education.

[Kipepeo]

181. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

I think you meant to reply to the original topic, not my post. :) But thanks for your perspective.

My own high school experience was that everyone, male or female, had to be stupid to be "cool." It was somehow cool to make bad grades, never do your homework, to make fun of smart kids, and to not know the answer when called on in class.

I think our society worships stupidity more and more. Just look at our President.

[Turd Ferguson]

182. Thanks for the welcome

and yeah I did mean the discussion but you post is awesome too:).

I do think society and pop culture worship stupidity especially when it comes to men. Look at many of the TV shows that are popular. Family Guy, The Simpsons, Married with Children, and those types of shows are all centered around an ignorant jackass. I love all three of those shows but I think a lot of men don't get the joke. The men in those shows aren't to be admired but should be ridiculed. Having Bush as president is like having Peter Griffin or Homer Simpson as president, except without all that common sense.

[Kipepeo]

183. Yep

The men are stupid lazy jackoffs and the women are hysterical babes or mom-figures (or both more and more often).

[Yupster]

190. Many studies, many reasons

Why don't you start a thread and it would be a good discussion. Hate to hijack this one onto a different topic though.

[Nobody]

186. My guess is that there are two reasons

And by and large they may also be true of girls, too.

One was addressed upthread: the anti-intellectualism of our society. Social pressure seems to me to affect boys more. They have a lot more status to lose if they pick up negative labels than girls do. Just about every society on this earth prefers boys and values them more. It's wrong and needs to change. So labeling a boy as a nerd for being interested in reading and in science among other intellectual pursuits is a lot more negatively perceived in a boy.

My friends now that I'm an adult were all picked on in school and every one of them, men and women both, could if they wanted to, qualify for Mensa. We were all bored stiff as kids, academically speaking, due to the class moving slower than we were and due to the lack of gifted student programs.

The other reason is that maybe the underachieving boys are bored stiff. They might be geniuses but aren't being challenged enough in class and therefore, like Einstein, might fail in their best subjects. If your sons are telling you they're bored, it's probably time to find a hobby that will challenge him.

Another reason he might be bored is that the material isn't presented in a way that helps him learn it. Underfunded schools are part of the problem, teachers are stretched way too thin and the money stays at the administrative level instead of getting into the classroom where it's needed most.

Each student has a different way of picking up information. Some are find with hearing, others need to see it, some need interactivity, others need to know the relevance to their own lives, some need reasons why. And others I can't imagine. Rote memorization is fine for the periodic table, but understanding how molecules fit together can be taught a number of ways. Small class sizes help.

My mother had words of wisdom: Education is the one thing no one can take from you.

As a feminist, I'm happy to know that girls are succeeding. It should never be at the expense of boys.

[doni_georgia]

192. Boys are more likely to be visual/spatial, and kinesthetic learners

which are the least likely teaching styles used - especially in this teach to the test mentality we have going now. Girls are more likely to be auditory or linguistic learners, which is better suited to the way most teachers teach - lecture, read the text, etc. I also believe video games have something to do with lessening children's attention spans, and more boys are into video games than girls. Then there's the "image" thing. Was a time, when girls thought they had to act dumb. That has changed, but unfortunately it has passed on to the boys, who don't want to be labled as nerds. It's just not cool for boys to be studious. I see it every day in my class - parents who tell their boys that sports are more important than school, boys who are afraid of being picked on or beat up if they admit enjoying things like reading and writing. It all boils down to a culture that doesn't value education.