Tolerance is a two-way street.

[BurtWorm]

The latest American Prospect has two facing "Prospects," one by Paul Starr and one by Robert Kuttner. Kuttner is less apologetic about progressivism and more critical of the way Democrats ran their campaigns this year. Something Starr said, however, really caught my attention. He wrote something about how a party that keeps making enemies shouldn't be surprised to find itself outside the majority. My first thought is that he must be giving Prospect readers a bit of hope, especially after he had been laying out how the GOP has attacked Democrats for being pro-woman, pro-minority, pro-gay, pro-labor...and then I realized Starr was actually chastising Democrats--it was Democrats, he was implying, who keep making enemies! But who are the enemies Democrats are making? Straight white people outside of urban centers. Democrats court constituencies but all they need, Starr seems to believe, is this one class of enemy to remain the minority party. Now is the solution really to court this one class of enemy to turn the party's fortunes around? Wouldn't that result in making many, many more enemies?

I bring this up because I think people who view the "left" as intolerant might want to remove the logs from their own eyes. And those of us at DU who believe one side is being intolerant of the other should simply consider the way that filthy other party operates. How tolerant are they of anyone but their one shrinking (albeit bewilderingly powerful) constituency? I don't want that kind of tolerance. Do you?

[Bouncy Ball]

1. Very good point.

I don't want that kind of "tolerance" either.

[OctOct1]

2. This reminds me of....

Something I saw on CSPAN this morning.
A repug said that Democrats are not tolerant of intolerance.
I just shook my head and wondered what planet woke up on???

[Warpy]

4. Poor little bigots

They just don't realize that some behavior is unacceptable. It's unacceptable to floss your teeth at the table in a fine reastaurant, it's unacceptable to treat people like they're something you just scraped off your shoe because they have a different skin color, or an accent, or you've found out they don't agree with some of your opinions.

Good manners are what enable us to live together without constant bickering and outright fistfights. Tolerance is part of good manners. So is calling people what they tell you they'd like to be called. Insisting on civility is not intolerance; it's insisting on the very thing that holds society together.

Mannerless clods like bigots, homophobes, and intolerant fundamentalists should know where the behavior line is and that their behavior is unacceptable. Nobody in the world deserves to be treated the way they treat people who are outside of their narrow group.

[aquart]

3. Damn good point.

[Octafish]

5. Great post: "In Unity Is Strength" -- Aesop

DUers and all DEMs must take this to heart. And to the High Road. The Smart Road. The Good Road.

Remember what brings us together FIRST. Then we can talk about what divides us. We will discover who the enemy is. And it ain't each other...

The solution is as old as dirt: Through unity is STRENGTH.

THE BUNDLE OF STICKS

An old man on the point of death summoned his sons around him to give them some parting advice. He ordered his servants to bring in a bundle of sticks, and said to his eldest son: "Break it." The son strained and strained, but with all his efforts was unable to break the Bundle. The other sons also tried, but none of them was successful. "Untie the bundle," said the father, "and each of you take a stick." When they had done so, he called out to them: "Now, break," and each stick was easily broken. "You see my meaning," said their father.

Union gives strength

Source:
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Aesop/Aesops_Fables/The_Bundle_of_Sticks_p1.html

[BurtWorm]

6. Kick

[sangh0]

7. High levels of denial here

But who are the enemies Democrats are making? Straight white people outside of urban centers.

If you looked at the polls result and exit polls, you'd see who the Dems are appealing to and who they aren't. "Reagan Democrats" are not entirely composed of "straight white people outside of urban centers". In fact, many were members of unions, which tend to concentrate in URBAN areas.

bush* and the repukes have also made some progress attracting Catholics, Latinos, women, and Orthodox Jews. So keep on calling all those groups "intolerant", while claiming that dems are not making any enemies.

I bring this up because I think people who view the "left" as intolerant might want to remove the logs from their own eyes.

You do realize, I hope, that the intolerance on the right is not evidence of an absence of intolerance on the left, don't you? Maybe some on the left are pointing out the intolerance on the left, not because they're one-sided and think ONLY the left is intolerant, but because they know that pointing out the right's intolerance will do nothing to change the left's intolerance.

And those of us at DU who believe one side is being intolerant of the other should simply consider the way that filthy other party operates.

This is a straw man, as I havent seen ANY DUer claim that the right is tolerant. You're just trying to misportray anyone who criticizes intolerance on the left as someone who ignores the right's intolerance, which just is not true.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

11. Missing the point

The # of union members who have been voting repuke has risen. I guess that has nothing to do with any mistakes the dems have made. We can just repeat the answer to everything (ie. "they are bigots"), and no, we're not repelling potential voters.

The other groups tipped Republican most likely on the basis of security more than any reason.

So bush*, the man who let us be attacked on 9/11, and who launched an invasion based on lies, is considered to be better on security than Dems, but the Dems are doing nothing wrong? It's because of the right's intolerance. The left has no intolerant members.

And as for your final paranoid claim, I hope to remind Democrats that for all the fault-lines within the party, we are at heart a larger party than that other one.

Funny how you label it "paranoid" without refuting anything about it. I guess the slightest suggestion that there might be intolerance on the left is so unthinkable as to be "paranoid".

Who knew?

[BurtWorm]

12. Funny you should say *I'm* "missing the point!"

:D

So what's your solution, sangh0? Lay it out here for me, so I don't just assume you're one of those annoying "centrists."

[sangh0]

13. How about we stop tolerating some forms of intolerance

while complaining of other forms of intolerance. If it's wrong to portray all Muslims as terrorists because the Koran has a call to kill infidels, why is it OK to portray Christians of approving of mass murder because the Bible contains a story about Noah's Ark and The Flood?

Why is OK to demonize Southerners as white trash bigots?

[BurtWorm]

14. Some Democrats are more tolerant of the other party's institutional

intolerance than they are of other Democrats' personal intolerance. Then they have the gall to harp on and on and on and on about "Democratic intolerance." :eyes:

[sangh0]

15. Can you translate that into english?

Which Democrats think the rnc is a tolerant institution, and even if it's true, why would that stop you from criticizing intolerance when it comes from the left?

I notice that you don't deny that there's intolerance on the left. All you've done is to point to the other side's intolerance, as if that justifies or excuses intolerance on the left.

Then they have the gall to harp on and on and on and on about "Democratic intolerance."

I don't understand why you think someone has to "prove themselves" by talking about the rnc's intolerance when you know that there is intolerance on the left. Are you suggesting that some facts should be ignored unless the speaker first completes some sort of ideological test?

[BurtWorm]

17. Which Democrats are less tolerant of other Democrats than they are

of the institutional intolerance of the Republican Party? I would say it's those Democrats who want the Democratic Party to appeal to the groups who have found the institutional intolerance of Republicanism appealing. Read it slowly and you'll get it.

[sangh0]

19. OK, but that was only half the question

I also asked "why would that stop you from criticizing intolerance when it comes from the left?"

BTW, just in case you're again engaging in the politics of personal attacks, I have posted more info about the right's racism than you will ever do in your lifetime.

[BurtWorm]

20. Why would you think I'm referring to you?

I don't see anywhere near as much intolerance from the left as I see from the right. But if I see it, I'll let you know. ;)

[sangh0]

26. ANd again you avoid the question

"why would that stop you from criticizing intolerance when it comes from the left?""

I wonder why you won't criticize intolerance on the left?

[BurtWorm]

28. Did you or did you not express intolerance toward Muslims this weekend?

If you did, I will epxress intolerance for your intolerance.

[sangh0]

37. That was DrWeird's post that got deleted

for bigotry, as did a few of his and your posts in this thread.

[BurtWorm]

38. What was the nature of the bigotry in question?

[sangh0]

40. Ask him

.

[BurtWorm]

44. I'm asking you because you made the assertion.

[sangh0]

47. What assertion?

DW made an assertion, Ask him

[BurtWorm]

49. How do you know I haven't asked him?

You asserted that his thread was shut down for bigotry. I assume you meant his?

[sangh0]

52. Answer

the question

"why would that stop you from criticizing intolerance when it comes from the left?""


then maybe I'll answer one of yours

[BurtWorm]

55. I did answer it, sangh0.

Just because you didn't like the answer doesn't mean I didn't.

[sangh0]

57. So now you're going to deny that there's any intolerance on the left?

another question you haven't answered

[DrWeird]

59. I'm denying there's intolerance on the left.

I don't consider people who are bigots to be members of the left. Some people say they're leftists, but I don't consider them so.

Does that answer the question?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BurtWorm]

25. Really?

Well then I must make a clear statement about this "intolerance on the left." For shame!

[sangh0]

27. So now you're going to deny that there's any intolerance on the left?

.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

32. Another question you wont answer

I would think if the left is blameless, you'd have no reluctance to answer these questions

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BurtWorm]

41. I am only asking a question, sangh0.

They're being deleted because evidently someone has complained. ;)

[sangh0]

43. Your posts are being deleted because they ask questions?

Wanna bet this post, which asks a question, doesn't get deleted?

Go on, hit the alert button!

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

48. AVoiding the question again?

"why would that stop you from criticizing intolerance when it comes from the left?""

[BurtWorm]

51. Please don't avoid my question.

I answered yours. You just didn't like the answer.

[sangh0]

53. Answer

the question

"why would that stop you from criticizing intolerance when it comes from the left?""

[sangh0]

50. Answer

the question.

"why would that stop you from criticizing intolerance when it comes from the left?""

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

33. personal attacks will get this thread locked

Keep it up. I won't mind

[DrWeird]

35. No personal attacks involved.

You made a bigoted remark last night. The mod saw it too, that's why he or she deleted it. Given that you yourself made intolerant remarks, to complain about intolerance would be hypocritical.

[sangh0]

36. Keep it up

I won't complain

[DrWeird]

42. Why won't you be open and honest?

Isn't there something in the Bible about not giving false witness?

[sangh0]

45. Why won't you be open and honest?

Why don't you explain why your posts were deleted in THIS thread?

[DrWeird]

54. I am.

It was probably a mistake by the mod.

There's a rule that you can't say:

"You are being a hypocrite."

however, you can say in the passive:

"what you said was hypocritical, here is why:"

And in the context I said it I was entirely correct.

It also could seem that I was "stalking" in the message board sense of the word. However, the topic that I'm bringing up is directly relevant to the topic of this thread, so it is not. I'd like to see the moderator give an opinion on the topic so we can all see exactly what is going on. I myself am being open and honest. You, however, appear to be ducking all the questions.

[sangh0]

56. Sure you are

YOu obviously must know the rules well by now, seeing as how most of your posts in this thread have been deleted.

[DrWeird]

58. You're still dodging the questions.

How can you complain about intolerance against religion when you make bigoted comments about Islam?

[Bridget Burke]

60. And your posts that remain...

speak volumes.

[xchrom]

21. the left are elitist and out of touch, right?

You do realize, I hope, that the intolerance on the right is not evidence of an absence of intolerance on the left, don't you? Maybe some on the left are pointing out the intolerance on the left, not because they're one-sided and think ONLY the left is intolerant, but because they know that pointing out the right's intolerance will do nothing to change the left's intolerance.


this argument is really tired -- the problem dems have had is in not breaking the stereotypical corners that repukes have backed them into.
a prime example of that is the swift boats debacle -- no matter how often facts came to the surface that refuted those characters -- the right kept beating the drum and frankly the left did not do the equivalent hatchet job back.
the right claims there is an ''elite'' group out there who wants to tell ''real'' americans how to live their live -- false -- there is an elite group of liberals -- yes -- they want to work on the facts of poverty and how it relates to crime, how american policies create enemies abroad, how equal rights for all BENEFITS all, etc.
it's how the game is played in real time that has dems locked up right now and that's really it.
your comments simply prove the rights bigotry about the left -- and that's all.

[sangh0]

29. So intolerance is "not a problem"?

and again, a poster points to the right's intolerance as if it were evidence that there's no intolerance on the left.

[yardwork]

8. I think that Democrats have allowed themselves to be bullied enough!

For the past three decades the Republicans have consolidated power by lying and cheating. That is a fact.

Democrats have responded by trying to become more and more "moderate." We've moved so far to the "middle" we're about to fall off the right-wing cliff!

Meanwhile, the party of the Right has moved so far to the right they're well into fascism.

No amount of appeasement will ever be enough. As long as the Republicans control the voting machines, the vote tabulations, the airwaves, most of the churches, and all the money, everyone else will lose.

The only way to win is to take the truth to the streets.

[datasuspect]

10. can't keep apologizing for being progressive

taking action in the streets seems the way to go.

[TWiley]

16. I will not surrender my freedom to the repukes in the name of tolerance.

Tolerance to the republicans actually means to vote in favor of the bush agenda right?

And if I disagree with their policy then I am intolerant?

I am intolerant of lots of things. Rape, murder, racism, sexism, discrimination, pollution, the combination of church and state, tax cuts for the rich, outsourcing jobs, the war in Iraq, endless military funding, funding cuts for social programs,and so on.

The intolerance most of us here refer to is the hatred of Gays, Jews, Blacks, Muslims, or the type that is against a group.

[InvisibleBallots]

18. telling people to vote for you, otherwise you are a bigot

is not really an effective sales tactic.

[BurtWorm]

22. Whose tactic is that?

:wtf:

[Bridget Burke]

61. It really pisses off the bigots.....

So sad.

[SmokingJacket]

23. Excellent post. n/t

[mike_c]

62. thanks for posting this, BurtWorm....

I agree wholeheartedly. Dems have to stand FOR something, and that will inevitably alienate someone. The only way to not make political enemies is to placate every constituency, even those that are incompatible. That's a recipe for disaster. Democrats tried to do this with the anti-war movement in 2004 by implying that the party was *really* anti-war (wink, wink) but refrained from criticising the war to "include" moderates and hawks. In the end they didn't really convince anyone, IMO.

[Moderator]

63. Locking

due to content.

Thank you.