Hitler, Lenin, Stalin....logical conclusion of non-theistic evolution

[bzmtq5]

While recently reading The Real Face of Atheism by Ravi Zacharias, I realized in a new way that the slaughter of millions in Germany and Russia were the logical outcome of non-theistic evolutionary beliefs.

Think about it...powerful leaders who don't believe in a good and loving God believe the human race moves "forward" via the advancement of "superior" men while the "weak" perish. Using that logic, it only makes sense that these men eventually believed their effort to exterminate "inferior" beings was a contribution to the acceleration of a godless, evolutionary process.

It seems evident much of the human race hasn't learned from history's mistakes and many unknowingly promote an environment that sets the stage for madmen to carry atheistic evolution to yet another horror-filled conclusion.

There is a type of evolution that exists and many (most?) of the scientists that study it are aware God set that process in motion. Darwin was one such scientist as the last paragraph of Origin of Species testifies. Of course, theistic evolution differs greatly from what atheistic non-scientists proclaim as truth and evidence of a godless universe.

"By definition, it is absolutely true that Truth is absolute and the truth one knows sets one free."

Some profound truths in Ravi's book, get it online at RZIM.

[Hello_Kitty]

1. And the Christian Crusades?

[bzmtq5]

33. They weren't "christian"...by definition

The number of impostors on the planet, then and now, is likely an order of magnitude larger than those who are authentic....

More specifically, it's interesting you should ask...I just read what Ravi wrote yesterday and it echoed my beliefs albeit in greater, and more succinct detail than I've previously expressed. I'll quote him for several reasons....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Those who, in the name of Christ, have sought to kill in order to propagate their belief, were acting in serious contradiction to both the message and the method of the gospel. By contrast, the demagogues of the Nietzschean and Sartrean stripe were operating in total harmony with, and in some cases the direct injunction of, the ideology behind their actions." (fyi...Hitler practically worshiped Nietzsche)

"Moreover, we would be deceived if we falsely concluded that the philosophy of atheism has not yet affected us with violence. To relegate it to a distant impact would be to assume that the consequences of such ideas, as espoused by these intellectuals, have affected only remote geographical areas or exceptional cases such as the Third Reich. Intellectuals who have eradicated God from their philosophies have not remained content in affecting that remote a sphere. Much closer to home their ideas carry enormous weight in decision-making at the highest levels of our nations, building into the body of society the nerve and sinew of their values in law and education. The filtered-down effect of their beliefs is far-reaching."

"The very laws of the land today are shaped by many who have a worldview that denies the moral law of God. We have now found ourselves embroiled in debates that have sweeping consequences, which we try to play on middle ground, living under the illusion of neutrality. As the English philosopher G.K. Chesterton wrote more than a generation ago:
FOR UNDER THE SMOOTH LEGAL SURFACE OF OUR SOCIETY, THERE ARE ALREADY MOVING, VERY LAWLESS THINGS. WE ARE ALWAYS NEAR THE BREAKING POINT, WHEN WE CARE FOR ONLY WHAT IS LEGAL, AND NOTHING FOR WHAT IS LAWFUL. UNLESS WE HAVE A MORAL PRINCIPLE ABOUT SUCH DELICATE MATTERS AS MARRIAGE AND MURDER, THE WHOLE WORLD WILL BECOME A WELTER OF EXCEPTIONS WITH NO RULES. THERE WILL BE SO MANY HARD CASES THAT EVERYTHING WILL GO SOFT."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is from page 65 of the book I mentioned in my previous message.

I'm logging off after this message and hope to find the time to check in tomorrow.

Shalom!

[TankLV]

48. How convenient for you to unilaterally re-define who they are just on your

opinion just to try (unsuccessfully) to prove your point.

They WERE OFFICIALLY fighting for the Catholic Church!

Read your history!

[Ediacara]

55. Logging off you say?

How convenient...

[Walt Starr]

66. So now bzmtq5 is judge and jury on who is and isn't a Christian

How...convenient.

[lateo]

2. Substitute...

"Superior" Men with "Superior" Gods and your book falls apart. The problem is a lack of COMPASSION.

[russian33]

3. People kill in the name of their God all the time

[Darranar]

4. Acknowledging the EXISTENCE of evolution...

does not logically lead to supporting hastening it through government policy.

[teach1st]

5. I haven't read the book you mentioned...

...but are you saying that Atheists have no moral grounding? As an Atheist, I would resent that.

There are plenty of historical examples of atrocities being furthered in the name of a god.

[Cobalt Violet]

11. Like the Genocide of the Native American People.

[Ediacara]

6. This is so wrong on so many levels

1) Hitler was a Christian.

2) Lenin wasn't a butcher.

3) Social Darwinism, like eugenics, is a distortion of evolutionary theory and evolutionary thought used by wicked people to justify their wicked actions. Hitler and Stalin have more in common with Italian Fascism than they do with evolutionary biology.

[Squeech]

7. The SS belt buckles

were embossed with the words "Gott Mit Uns"-- God with us.

Maybe Hitler himself was an atheist, but there were enough believers that bought into his program to subjugate most of Europe for several years, and kill 11 million people in the coldest of blood.

[JVS]

14. "Gott mit uns" was on german military belt buckles for at least 30...

years before Hitler came to power. Using these belt buckles to say that the SS was chock full of Christians is like saying that the "In God we trust" on our quarters is evidence that Americans overwhelmingly trust in god.

[Walt Starr]

16. Hitler was a Christian, as was Mussolini

It's a bullshit argument used to proselytize a religion.

[JVS]

20. Wasn't the OP's point merely that atheists can be mass murderers too?

How is that bullshit and how does it proselytize?

Although, I really only wanted to comment on the belt buckle thing. It was a German tradition, not one started by the Nazis. That's all.

[Walt Starr]

21. No, the OP's point is that all mass murderers are atheists

falsely claiming Hitler was an atheist.

[JVS]

22. Oh. Well that is bullshit.

[DrWeird]

23. Not only that...

the guy the OP links to is an anti-atheist bigot.

[Taxloss]

28. Right!

eom

[TankLV]

50. And falsly claiming that the crusades weren't "christian" in origin.

[Walt Starr]

57. Well you know those Popes aren't REAL Christians

;)

At least to a lot of the bigotted Protestants, anyways.

[Squeech]

25. Thanks for clarifying that

I've heard a number of peculiar things about the Nazis and religion, of which the weirdest theory is that the real inner circle believed in the old Germanic/Norse pagan gods, Wotan and Thor and those guys.

[datasuspect]

30. i read about that

they interspersed the imagery of the germanic/norse pantheon/mythology with the imagery of the crusades/medieval past in their propaganda.

some of the posters and leaflets (just in terms of the illustrations) are very striking examples of good propaganda. big disclaimer: i DO NOT CONDONE WHAT HITLER DID.

i don't agree with national socialism, but they did know how to create a really good mindfuck.

a lot of those guys came here to the u.s. after the war and introduced many of those principles to the advertising industry here, especially with integrating psyhcological studies into it.

[JohnKleeb]

116. Mussolini was an athiest

[pnorman]

40. There was something far more deliberate in wearing that belt-buckle,

than in handling small change.

As for Hitler being a Christian: There were a few prominent anti-Christians ("Pagans") associated with the Nazi movement, but all reports were that Hitler himself was a practicing Christian (whateverthehell THAT meant).

pnorman

[JVS]

46. My point is that it was a traditional German custom, rather than a nazi...

creation

Also most who wore the belt were conscripts for whom the deliberate intentions of wearing the belt buckle was probably a simple matter of keeping pants up

[LeftyMom]

139. Whatever the word for "anti-christians" would be

It surely isn't Pagans. Try again and try not to malign my religion next time.

By the way, a quick visit to any Pagan discussion board on the internets would reveal that the politics of most Pagans in no way resembles Hitler's- many would be right at home on DU.

[Endangered Specie]

81. You mean these...

(in my sig)

[ret5hd]

8. good beginners effort at troll bait...

before long you'll be reelin' 'em in like a pro.

[Threedifferentones]

You may be right

but as has already been pointed out, things like the crusades, the inquistion, and even 9/11 are rooted in religion. Indeed religion has been used justification for a lot of horrible things. Instead of worrying about whether God exists or not we should just accept that we'll probably never know and MOVE ON.



3DO

[Ardee]

9. well not quite

Hitler and the Pope had quite an understanding you might care to know, there were bishops and at least one cardinal in Germany who stated approval for the rise of the National Socialist Party.

While Lenin and Stalin were both avowed atheism, and some say that atheists are practicing a religion of sorts, there is much evidence of atrocities throughout the ages committed by religious persons in the name of their religion.

So.....no.

[DrWeird]

10. Is this a cattle ranch thread?

Because all I see is bullshit.

Eugenics is a pseudoscience. So is Creationism.

[wtmusic]

12. Assumes people can't be moral without a Santa-type figure

To Egyptians the logical proof of the existence of Ra was rain falling from the sky.

Thomas Edison was an atheist. I guess the light bulb is also the outcome of non-theistic beliefs.

[Walt Starr]

13. Would you mind proselytizing your religion elsewhere?

Thank you.

[da_chimperor]

15. Move along people, nothing to see here

[datasuspect]

17. love your pics

did you do these?

[da_chimperor]

18. Nope, they've all been 'borrowed'

Feel free to use them if you'd like. :D

[Walt Starr]

26. Sounds to me like a sporting game show

Trolling for DUers.

:evilgrin:

Remember Bowling for Dollars?

[kcwayne]

19. This is so historically ignorant it is hard to know where to start

and is probably a waste of time to point it out.

The Third Reich was not atheistic. They used Christianity heavily, and imbued the church with the party's core ideals. The reference literature is abundant on this point.

They also were not heavily influenced by evolutionary thinking. They were heavily influenced by the idea of a statically defined race, and were obsessed with lineage to it. The model had more to do with a monarchial or papal view of power and citizenry than anything to do with Darwinism.

And impossibly absurd is the idea that mass murder is somehow the logical extention of atheism?

Tell that to the Aztecs, Mayans, South and North American Indians upon whom Christians committed genocide in the name of their religion. And don't forget the Africans, or the pograms against the Jews throughout Europe, or the Crusades. Or would someone care to suggest that these were not "real" Christians but atheists in disguise? Spare me.

[Taxloss]

24. Hitler wasn't "non-theistic".

("Non-theistic"? Why not just say "atheist" and make it completely clear that you're attacking atheism? I wouldn't describe a Christian as "pro-Son of God". Sheesh.)

Hitler was no atheist. He believed in God. He continually talked about God, God's plan for Germany, the destiny that God had given him, how he and the people of Germany had been created by God. This was not the Christian God, but it was a God. This is not "non-theistic".

As for evolutionary beliefs leading to slaughter, that's absurd, although the Nazis certainly justified their slaughter with pseudoscience. Darwinism demonstrates thatspecies diversity, and the mixing and remixing of characteristics, is the key to species strength. Not purification into a genetic dead-end monoculture.

This post has an agenda - either to tout a book or to trash atheism. Or both. I don't like either.

[norml]

27. Link to quotes from Hitler and Nazis on their own Christianity...

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

[norml]

29. The "Conservative" Sermon On The Mount

The "Conservative" Sermon On The Mount


Blessed are the rich for all good things trickle down from them. Cursed are the poor for poverty results from their moral failings. Blessed are the war makers for they keep freedom on the march. Cursed are the peacemakers for they shall be called appeasers. Blessed are those who inflict harsh punishments for they maintain law and order. Cursed are those who forgive for they shall be called soft on crime. Blessed are those who pray loudly standing in the churches and on the corners sounding the trumpet before them. Cursed are those who shut the closet door and pray in secret for their prayers are not heard. Blessed are those who cast the first stone for the sake of sexual morality for that is the only morality that matters. Cursed are those who see sexuality as a private matter for marriage must be defended against them.

[immoderate]

31. bzmtq5, your stuff is creepy.

The kind of despots you mention, are not atheists. They are theists with the desire to insert themselves as the godhead. They have all the trappings of religion, blind faith, sacred writings, ritual and ceremony, uncritical idolatry. You can't be atheist if you pretend to be god.

Worse yet, they did not kill these masses on their own, the true evil was done by their faithful followers. I emphasize faith because the faithful do not have the equivalent of a Geneva Convention, where they are encouraged to disobey an illegal order. I think that anybody who can spew the platitudinous drivel that you leave around could be quite dangerous.

--IMM

[Solly Mack]

32. Now where did I put that fly-swatter?

[absolutezero]

34. religion is just as bad

the crusades, suicide bombers and a list longer than I can type of religiously motivated atrocities have occured.

And wasn't Hitler a devout Catholic?

[ulysses]

35. *boggle*

Loopy.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

37. Bullshit.

nt

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

41. Actually, nobody knows how many were killed by the Christians in

the crusades and the inquisition. thre records simply aren;t there.

But the bloodthirsty religion did, in fact, wipe out entire villages and towns in it's death cult bloodlust.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

51. You know about something posted here years ago

yet jouined today.

:eyes:

Yeah. Right. C U Later.

[immoderate]

134. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, had help killing all those people

From the true believer types who worshipped them and gave them their faith. The atheists here do not form death cults of followers. Just as the Christians here are not Torquemada.

--IMM

[sangh0]

141. So Pol Pot, an atheist, didn't form any death cults?

You might want to read about it some more

[DrWeird]

53. Sorry, they aren't facts.

Nobody knows how many thousands were slaughtered during the crusades or the inquisition. Although it was undoubtadely more that the number of Christians killed by the Romans before they themselves converted to Christianity. It is known that Christians were responsible for slaughtering some 12 million Native Americans. Untold millions of native South Americans. Several million African slaves. About 6 million jews and another 6 million homosexuals, gypsies, atheists etc. during WWII. And just recently about 100,000 Iraqis.

Funny how you complain about Iraq invading Kuwait but you support the US invasion of Iraq, which is pretty much the same thing.

Doesn't the Bible say something about not giving false witness.

[sangh0]

127. Nobody knows how many thousands were slaughtered...

but we know about the MILLIONS atheists murdered

[DrWeird]

131. We know about the millions murdered by Christians.

The holocaust, for example.

[sangh0]

138. Hitler wasn't a Christian, and atheist have killed 10's of millions

another fact for the fact loving atheists who don't even believe what's proven when it contradicts their faith

Please show me a Christian who can match the atheist Mao's 30 million?

[DrWeird]

149. Yes, Hitler was a Christian and so were the nazis who followed him.

As were the Americans who wiped out the Native Americans and the Spanish who wiped out Latin American Natives.

"Please show me a Christian who can match the atheist Mao's 30 million?"

What is this? Some kind of pissing contest to you? You seem to be on some hellbent quest to prove that Christians are more moral than anybody else. And you'll resort to complaining about anti-Christian bigotry while in the same thread making Anti-Islamic bigoted remarks.

The hypocrisy is amazing.

[Cobalt Violet]

42. Did it account for how many Native Americans werre killed by Xians?

For Xians?

[Walt Starr]

43. You know Christian mass murders don't count!

They were saving the souls of those savages!

/sarcasm

[sangh0]

56. Actually, most of the Native American deaths were the result of disease

An estimated 90% of them, and I doubt those diseases were religious

[datasuspect]

60. diseases like smallpox

smallpox infected blankets to be precise, which were distributed to many tribes by the u.s. army.

[Walt Starr]

63. Yep, William Henry Harrison used biological warfare on Native Americans

Smallpox infected blankets to be precise.

He went on to become president like another mass murderer we all know.

[sangh0]

70. Check your history books

and you'll see that the deliberate use of biological agents occurred after the majority of Native Americans had perished. It only accounts for a relatively small portion of the deaths, and the total number of NA deaths due to this is but a small portion of the deaths caused by Mao, Hitler, and Stalin.

[Walt Starr]

73. Mao and Staln never used WMDs

Truman did. Hitler could be considered as using WMDs on the Jews as he used poison gas.

And William Henry Harrison used biological warfare which qualifies as using WMDs.

:shrug:

If you ask me, a mass murderer is a mass murderer, and a WMD user is a WMD user.

[sangh0]

78. And Truman never created a gulag

or a "re-education" center

And Saddam, not a Christian, used WMD's also. They're mass murderers too, but then, I don't hear you using that to prove your point.

[Walt Starr]

87. Saddam was a theist as well

:shrug:

Go figure.

And Hitler created death camps, a known Christian.

Mass murderers are just plain mass murderers, regardless.

[sangh0]

95. So when will you start pointing that out in every Muslim related thread?

If their religion is just as bad, how come you do appear to make Muslim jokes in every Muslim related thread you see, the way you do with the Christian related threads?

And Hitler is not a Christian. The only evidence that he was is what he said, and like bush*, he is a proven liar. But you'll believe them both because it suits your bias.

Mass murderers are just plain mass murderers, regardless.

And yet, you never speak about the ones committed by athiests, Muslims, or any group other than Christians.

[Walt Starr]

102. And Stalin wasn't a real atheist, either

He was a known liar, too.

:eyes:

[sangh0]

114. We've got a thread right here about atheist mass murders

and you know they exist.

So why aren't you, a self-declared hater of mass murderers, not speaking out against those well-documented mass murderers?

[DrWeird]

120. But they weren't really atheists.

They're known liars, so they were probably actually Christians.

:eyes:

[sangh0]

124. Pol Pot was probably a Christian?

more logic from the fundamentalists of atheism

[DrWeird]

133. Hey, it's your logic.

Most people say Pol Pot was an atheist Cambodian. But he was a liar. So he was probable an Armenian Christian.

[sangh0]

143. Which means he must be an atheist

like the Pope.

[Ediacara]

What a joke!

To prove your point that Hitler lied about his faith, you're using GOEBBELS as an authority!?

Says Goebbels, "Adolph wasn't a Christian, trust me, I never, ever lied."

[sangh0]

119. So you don't believe the lying Goebbels, but you do believe Hitler?

And you think I'm being a hypocrit?

I believe neither, and since the ONLY evidence that Hitler believed in a Christian god is Hitler's own claims, there is no credible evidence that Hitler was a Christian

[Ediacara]

126. If that's the choice, I choose Hitler

Hitler was a madman with a vision, and a track record of rounding up jews, atheists and homosexuals.

Goebbels was a professional liar.

[sangh0]

129. You would

I choose neither, a choice you seemed to think is impossible.

Goebbels was a professional liar.

Do you think Hitler was an amatuer?

[Ediacara]

142. The choice is Hitler was a) Christian b) not a Christian

There is no c) semi-Christian choice.

Hitler said he was a Christian and used religion very frequently in his speaches.

Hitler hated Jews as shown by his actions.

Hitler hated atheists as shown by his actions.

Hitler hated homosexuals as shown by his actions.

Goebbels, a profesasional liar, says that Hitler is an atheist.

The evidence here all supports the position that Hitler was a) a Christian.

I'm sorry if that bothers you, I'm not fond of Pol Pot being associated with my belief system, as I'm sure you don't like Hitler being associated with yours, but you simply can't escape the facts.

Making things up to make your belief system into a shining example of righteousness is dishonest, and downright silly. You're baring false witness, which is a rather wicked thing to do.

[sangh0]

145. I'm not limited by your lack of imagination,& I dont have to believe liars

There's a "believe neither" choice, even if you can't imagine it.

Amd Hitler killed plenty of Christians, including clergy. Hitler also hated Christians.

I'm not fond of Pol Pot being associated with my belief system

Too bad. It's a fact.

I'm sure you don't like Hitler being associated with yours, but you simply can't escape the facts.

What facts? You have proven that Hitler was a Christian. It's just a faith-based belief of yours.

Making things up to make your belief system into a shining example of righteousness is dishonest

So why are you making things up to make your belief system into a shining example of righteousness when you know that's dishonest?

PROVE that Hitler was a Christian

[datasuspect]

111. did you know hitler?

how do you know he wasn't a xtian?

what is your source? /sarcasm

anybody can call anybody a liar.

[datasuspect]

96. although saddam hussein was a secular muslim

he was still a muslim.

lots of fundamentalist muslims got pissed at him for having a koran written in his own blood which is out of line in islam. blood is unclean.

[sangh0]

122. Nope

Saddam was a Stalinist. Atheistic

Islam is a religion, not a race.

[datasuspect]

128. uh, yes

islam is a religion.

saddam hussein was a cia asset who brought stability to the region.

he was a secular muslim.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

no it isn't

there are plenty of muslims who aren't wahabbists.

what do you have against muslims?

do you think they are all rabid jihadis?

[immoderate]

148. Can God be an atheist?

One of the definitons of faith is allegiance to a leader. Hitler, Mao, Stalin, etc. could not have killed all those people without the faith of their followers. The victims were people who did not follow the reigning despot.

When a ruler sets himself up as a god, he can't be compared to the types of rationalist atheists that belong to this board.

--IMM

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

146. i'm ready to back to "happy bunnyworld"

i need to lay off these discussion boards for awhile and do some reading.

[DrWeird]

97. He didn't!? My Goodness.

I suppose you're right. He was only a VP at the time.

:eyes:

[Walt Starr]

108. Truman was the only person in history to order the use of nuclear weapons

on human beings. He was president at the time of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings and gave the orders.

[datasuspect]

113. but they don't count

because they were japanese. </sarcasm>

[DrWeird]

118. But were they really Japanese?

They were known liars after all.

:eyes:

[sangh0]

132. Does Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and Mao count?

I guess the 30 million Chinese who died don't count for much with you.

[sangh0]

68. Actually, that was responsible for a small portion of the deaths

Check your history books. That came after most of the Native Americans tribes had already been "reduced"

[Cobalt Violet]

76. I trust the Native American account of what happened to them more...

Then the history books by whites christians.

[sangh0]

79. Your trust is the same "faith based" logic you criticized earlier

Surprisingly enough, Native Americans can be wrong, and the books weren't all written by white christians. That must be another of those "faith based" facts you abhor so much

[datasuspect]

80. yeah

lots of history books emphasize the rigtheousness of the united states.

history books from other countries tend be more truthful about our history.

i second that.

[sangh0]

103. Are you saying that Jared DIamond is wrong?

I noticed you're quick to slander a noted scientist without any evidence whatsoever

[Ediacara]

106. when and how did he slander Diamond?

[sangh0]

135. He claimed that the books in America are slanted

without providing any evidence.

[datasuspect]

140. but did i mention your specific author?

no i didn't.

please provide evidence of you hitler atheism assertion.

i want primary sources or acceptable secondary sources from reputable academics.

[datasuspect]

117. please don't put words in my mouth

thank you.

[datasuspect]

144. and anyway, we were talking about history

and did not slander any noted historians whatsoever.

i don't know how the hell you got slandering noted scientists in what i posted.

please explain this to me.

[Cobalt Violet]

109. And listening to Native American historians is very enlightening too.

I have learned a lot that I didn't get from my history books.

[Cobalt Violet]

104. Ahhhh. I have finially used the ignore option.

How wonderful it is.:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: Ha Ha

[Cobalt Violet]

61. Small pox on blackets?

Bio Terrorist Xians.

[Cobalt Violet]

64. Where did you get these facts.

Or are they faith based

[sangh0]

71. What you call "faith based"

most others call "history books"

Though not exactly a history book, Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel also refer to these "faith based" facts. I don't suppose you're familiar with his work. Are you?

[DrWeird]

65. Most of the Holocaust deaths were the result of cyanide poisoning.

I don't think cyanide is religous either.

[datasuspect]

72. convenietly by a precursor company of today's Agfa, BASF, Bayer, Hoechst

called I.G. Farben which owned Degesch, manufacturer of Zyklon-B gas.

[sangh0]

75. And Hitler wasn't a Christian, and neither were the US corps that financed

the Holocaust

And you still haven't come up with a number that matches Mao, Stalin, and Hitler.

[Ediacara]

84. Hitler wasn't a Christian?

Says who? You?

I think the point people are trying to make is that theists are as big, if not bigger, mass murderers than atheists ever have been.

[sangh0]

90. Says Goebbels and many others who knew him

and there's plenty of evidence that atheists are giving them a run for their money.

[Ediacara]

92. Wait a minute....

Downthread you claim that Hitler wasn't a Christian because he's a known liar, and he must have been lying about his faith. NOW YOU USE GOEBBELS AS YOUR GODDAMNED AUTHORITY!?

[sangh0]

98. That's not what I said

I asked why believe what Hitler said when he is a proven liar.

I never said he MUST HAVE been lying about his faith. You just made that up.

[Ediacara]

121. BUT YOU ARE USING GOEBBELS AS AN AUTHORITY!!!!!

When you claim that a) Hitler is a known liar and b) wasn't a Christian because he was lying.

I couldn't imagine anyone who I'd trust less than Goebbels!

I mean honestly, Goebbels is like a monster accumulation of all the world's liars in one.

I'll come out and say it, I trust Hitler's word more than Goebbels'.

Goebbels is probably the least honest person in the history of mankind.

So.... using your specious logic, Hitler must have been a Christian because Goebbels said he wasn't.

As an aside, the fact that the Nazis rounded up atheists and homosexuals (as well as Jews) pretty much destroys your position that Hitler was an atheist...

[DrWeird]

100. LOL.

nt

[datasuspect]

107. Selected Hitler Quotes

i posted this in another thread:

adolf hitler:

"Who says I am not under the special protection of God?"

"It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge."

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine"

"The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others"

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief"

[datasuspect]

101. Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Reich Propaganda Minister

too rich . . .

[sangh0]

110. So you believe the liar who agrees with you, but doubt the one who doesn't

I think that when the only evidence you have comes from liars like Hitler, one can't credibly come to the conclusion that Hitler was a Christian. The point about raising Goebbel's is that the testimony of a liar proves nothing.

But you'll dismiss Goebbel's for being a liar, while accepting Hitler's claims.

Just as you just accepted a freeper's claims about how Muslims want to kill infidels.

[datasuspect]

125. please don't put words in my mouth

thank you.

"Just as you just accepted a freeper's claims about how Muslims want to kill infidels."

where did you come up with this one?

[DrWeird]

91. He wasn't a "real" christian because he was a bad guy.

Sort of a "catch-22" that apologists like to use.

[Walt Starr]

94. Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were's "REAL" Atheists.

:eyes:

Makes as much sense as the crap spewed about Hitler not being a REAL Christian, even though Hitler claimed he was a Christian himself!

[Walt Starr]

47. Did you know many people consider proselytizing to be rude behavior?

I know I consider it the single most rude behavior for adults to engage in within civilized society.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

44. selected hitler quotes

adolf hitler:

"Who says I am not under the special protection of God?"

"It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge."

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine"

"The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others"

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief"

[sangh0]

82. Breaking News

Hitler is a proven liar, and you believe him

Do you believe bush* when he says he's a Christian too?

Why do you believe proven liars, and mistrust those who haven't been shown to lie?

[Ediacara]

86. Just because you so desperately want Hitler to NOT be Christian

Doesn't make it so.....

[datasuspect]

89. hitler WAS a christian

he identified himself as such. maybe not your flavor of christian, but he espoused christianity many times.

remember: we all have clay feet.

dubya is a christian because he has stated that he has accepted jesus christ as his personal lord and savior.

[Walt Starr]

99. And Stalin wasn't a REAL Atheist either

Stalin claimed to be an Atheist, but he was a known liar.

:eyes:

[Radical Activist]

45. You forget social Darwinism

that was preached by conservative Christians for many years. Atheists don't have a monopoly on believing in the type of evolutionary process your post talks about. Protestants ministers were at one time the main proponents of the survival of the fittest mindset you describe. Not to mention that this kind of thinking describes the current agenda of the Republican Party despite how religious it claims to be.

You also seem to have forgotten that Hitler was no enemy to organized religion. He made friends with leaders of various churches and used religions themes to his advantage, just like our current fuhrer.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

62. "The Origin of Species" is racist?

Or did you mean "The Voyage of the Beagle"? Or "The Descent of Man?" I'll admit the latter is a bit antiquated, but not at all racist.

So what the hell are you talking about?

Shall I remind you that Darwin was a devout Christian?

[Ediacara]

67. Really?

Why I have a copy in my mass-murdering little hands....

It is:

The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection
or the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life

What should be remembered however, is that Darwin didn't speak about human races in this book, or human evolution at all, until he wrote Descent of Man. As is clear from context in the book, and from Victorian language, Darwin's use of "race" doesn't correspond to the modern term.

Darwin talked about races, and breeds, and varieties (using these terms interchangeably) of pigeons for example. In which in modern terms this usage corresponds to breeds or subspecies.

ON EDIT: I will give you this: Darwin's imprecise use of the word race in the title and throughout the book can conceivibly be thought of as the impetus for wicked people such as Social Darwinists and Eugenicists to do their wicked deeds. Unfortunately, like all wicked people who bear false witness (like creationists for example), they not only harm the people they lie about, they harm themselves.

[BillZBubb]

105. You haven't got a friggin clue about Darwin.

You are parrotting a bullshit RW talking point. Darwin mentions race in the full title, but he never used race in the way we use it now. For Darwin, race was a synonym for varieties or subgroups within any species.

Any race (ie variety) which survived, was by Darwin's account, a success. Therefore, all existing human racial groups were equally successful. They all survived in their environments. Read Darwin and LEARN SOMETHING.

Only when the pseudo-science of social Darwinism came about did racial prejudice enter into the picture.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

58. Did you know that Stalin didn't believe in genetics?

It was held to be against the spirit of Marxism. Instead, the Soviet Union launched off on Lysenkoism, a load of bollocks about acquired characteristics that set Soviet biology back a generation. That's what happens when you ignore the evidence in front of your face in favour of your pre-conceived ideologies.

No, I guess you didn't know it, or you wouldn't have tried to use Stalin in such an idiotic and provocative post.

Did you also know that fundamentalist Christianity logically ends in the mass murder of billions of people in Armageddon, just because they chose the wrong book (or no book) to believe in? Or that it advocates everlasting torment for people like Mahatma Gandhi? Yes, you probably did, but you'll keep quiet about that, because it shows how extremist Christians can be too.

[sangh0]

59. Bigotry is just as disgusting

when it's directed against the non-religious, as when it's directed against the religious.

[BillZBubb]

112. It's not bigotry if it challenges bullshit.

This thread started as bullshit. Most, but not all, pro-religion arguments are bullshit. We sure seem to see a lot of them here.

[depakid]

69. I seem to recall some pretty nasty things going on in the book

of Joshua.

Genocide of the first order, if I'm not mistaken.

That particular God didn't seem so "good" and "loving" (at least by my reading) although His adherents certainly believed that they were contributing to the accelleration of the process of righteousness by killing all of the Canaanites.

[datasuspect]

77. jehovah

was really keen on genocide. gotta love the old testament.

[JanMichael]

74. This is bullshit.

God, yeah him, I can't stand this shit anymore. DU is being overrun by intolerant paracites.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

83. I would like to read GD with an absence of these BS threads

religious threads are OK. But the flamers and disruptors here lately are vile.

[JanMichael]

93. Sadly I just commited the same act.

I've kept out of this divisive crap because it's, well, divisive.

But it just doesn't stop...

My bad, I lost my cool.

[Cobalt Violet]

137. I would too.

I have had to use ignore and I don't like to. But I'm sick of being BADGERD by over zealous Xians.

[Walt Starr]

85. Let's examine the fundie site you send us to, shall we?

Ravi Zacharias
For thirty-three years Ravi Zacharias has spoken all over the world and in numerous universities, notably Harvard, Princeton, and Oxford University. He has addressed writers of the peace accord in South Africa, President Fujimori's cabinet and parliament in Peru, and military officers at the Lenin Military Academy and the Center for Geopolitical Strategy in Moscow. He has been privileged to bring the main address at the National Day of Prayer in Washington, DC, an event endorsed and cohosted by President George W. Bush ...

<snip>

so you would have us believe the bullshit teachings of a Bushbot fundie first off.

Let's look at the bullshit he believes:

We believe the Old and New Testaments to be the infallible word of God, inerrant as originally given, verbally inspired by God and the complete and sufficient revelation of His will for man's salvation and conduct.

So the Bible is literally correct, the essence of fundamentalist Xianity.

What you are expecting of DUers is we become fundamentalist followers of George "Jeezus Krist" Bush!

[Endangered Specie]

88. Hmmm my Freeper dectector is going off!

[cire4]

115. What else did Hiter, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini have in common?

They all HATED the intellectual community. They hated people who could offer smart and reasoned arguments that challenged their ideolgoy and vision of the world.

Hmmm....who does that remind me of? Oh yes...our lovely pResident in cheif. As Bob Woodward put it, he had "disdain for intellectuals" for precisely the same reasons: that they frequently presented arguments that contradicted his worldview....

[DireStrike]

123. Piss off.

You don't like it when people spew this sort of semi intellectual crap about the bible and christianity, so why are you doing it in reverse?

"leaders who don't believe in a good and loving God believe the human race moves "forward" via the advancement of "superior" men while the "weak" perish."

That's ridiculous and wrong on so many levels.

[Endangered Specie]

147. Heh, Welcome to DU, enjoy your stay... brief as it may be.

[Moderator]

150. I'm locking this thread

Reason :

flamebait