Fallujah. A tiny, tiny little place about 5 square miles

[Tinoire]

Someone please tell me I'm dreaming and that Fallujah is much larger than this.

5 SQUARE MILES?!!!

In order to support my theory that the war administration hates Fallujah with a passion because it's embarrassing the shit out of our mighty military machine, I went and googled to see just how big this place was.

Shock.

2004 population: 257,500 compared to Baghdad's 21,722,287.

It's got 0 high-rise buildings & you can WALK across it in 30 minutes.

Its size is less than 5 square miles yet over 10,000 U.S. troops, not to mention the British, can't "liberate" it, not even after slaughtering over 26% of its population.



Only US propaganda organs like CNN and FOX are putting the population at 500,000 (to minimize the magnitude of our crime). All atlases I checked put it at 250,000-280,000.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/city.htm
http://www.world-gazetteer.com/c/c_iq.htm#pl_20

Does anyone else have any hard figures on this tiny little city that going down as badly as Lidice? This horror is unbearable.

P.S. It's nice to be back :)


On edit: Link for figure of 67,000 deaths in post 26 from http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1230305.htm

[cally]

1. I can't answer your question, but it's nice to see you post

Hope all goes well with you. :hug:

[Tinoire]

3. Thanks :)

:hug: All is well (except for the sorry state of the world). Will give you a call soon but I am in SHOCK.

I never had ANY idea Fallujah was this tiny!

Today we threw the Red Crescent out of the city. I shudder to think of what's coming next.

US orders Iraqi Red Crescent out of Fallujah
AFP: 12/5/2004

BAGHDAD, Dec 5 (AFP) - The Iraqi Red Crescent said Sunday that it had left Fallujah on US military orders after the aid agency was told the former insurgent stronghold was not safe.

"Multinational forces asked the IRC to withdraw from Fallujah for security reasons and until further notice," the organisation's spokeswoman Ferdus al-Ibadi told AFP.

(snip)

Ibadi, speaking in Baghdad, had said earlier that the agency left of its own free will, but she said she was only informed after the IRC left the city that it had been told to do so by US marines.

The IRC distibuted food, water and blankets to around 1,500 people in the city, whose population was around 300,000 before a massive assault by US-led forces began on November 8.

(snip)

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=34640

[Ediacara]

2. It's around 15 km sq, less than 6 mi sq

At least according to that map, it's smaller than the town I live in, Bozeman MT.

The thing is..... it's got almost 10x as many people. That may be the problem...

[Tinoire]

5. Do you have a source?

That's still tiny, tiny... But do you have a source because I'm realizing there's not much out there. I'm a pack rat for facts with sources ;) Thanks

[Ediacara]

8. The scale on the map

Each box is 1 km x 1 km.

[Tinoire]

11. Damn

Was hoping you had some other source. This is the only one I found and I want more....

[Ediacara]

18. It's hard to tell where the city ends though

The grey box in the center is the inner city, probably walled, but there are roads outside of that area, some industrial areas (a cement plant, a mine etc), but no hard and fast "Fallujah city limit."

I would not be surprised if the entire inner city is walled, with thin winding streets, multi-story stone buildings, and a very high population density. It's not THAT small of an area.... the river may be messing with peoples' minds, but it's over 1/2 km wide, so a pretty broad river.

[thinkingwoman]

13. how can it pack that many people

into such a small area without any high rise buildings?

My town is about 1/5th the size with less than 6,000 people and no high rise buildings.

I just cannot figure out how 200,000 people could fit into a little less than 6 sq miles.

Maybe the map is off.

[Taxloss]

19. High urban density in Middle-Eastern cities.

No sprawling suburbs. No gardens. No lawns. No malls.

It's like a whole different country.

(That town badly needs a southern by-pass though. The central traffic must be awful.)

[thinkingwoman]

21. LOL on the bypass

I agree.

Still boggles my mind about the population vs. area though.

[Karenina]

69. Kick!

:kick:

[proud patriot]

22. not to mention more people tend to live together in the same dwelling

with extended families , Aunts , cousins etc....

[Taxloss]

29. Exactly.

Most of those buildings are three-storey and would have about eight rooms. They could house 12 each. And they're tiny by comparison with our homes.

Look at the street scene the next time you see Iraq on TV. You get a lot of pictures of soldiers clearing steep stairwells.

[jdots]

4. just because the talking heads with hair spray

make millions of dollars per year you shouldn't expect them to have facts together.They just read the script and have whats called "T.V.Q" it hasn't been about journalism for decades.
This too will change.

[Tinoire]

7. LMAO

Trust me, when those talking heads tell me it's going to be sunny, I grab an umbrella ;)

I never paid much attention to them anyway but frankly, I'm truly shocked at the size of the city. NOBODY ever talked about that and I never thought to look into it!

[Cronus Protagonist]

6. Fallujah - the little city that could

Sorry, couldn't resist it - I had to put it in terms that Mr. Bush would understand.





http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[Tinoire]

9. Make sure you write it in crayon

;)

That moron refuses to read any report over a page long. Urgh.

The little city that could... I'm praying for it.

[Darranar]

10. 26%...

That figure seems high, would mean, according to your population figures, some 60,000+ deaths.

Do you have a source for that?

Still, though, it's a horrendous atrocity to do what has been done to that city, whatever size....

[Tinoire]

14. I could be wrong about that.

Read it in an article that had the figure of dead at 67,000 and put it at about 13% based on a population of 500,000 and I simply converted the figure.

But I am looking as we speak... If you ever find anything let me know. The US is keeping a pretty tight lid on the number of dead.

[Darranar]

23. Well, on November 16th...

a Red Cross official estimated that 800 had been killed, but I've seen nothing since then regarding casualty counts.

The US has indeed been careful about obstructing casualty reports, allowing puppets like Allawi to say that the bloody assault had killed no civilians.

[Tinoire]

25. Ok... Here you go : 2/3 of 100,000 dead were in Fallujah

From a Johns Hopkins report that ABC covered. :MAD:

Iraqi civilian deaths put at 100,000

Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed in violence since the US-led invasion last year, according to public health experts who estimate there were 100,000 "excess deaths" in 18 months.

(snip)

"Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq," said Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in a report published online by The Lancet medical journal.

"The use of air power in areas with lots of civilians appears to be killing a lot of women and children," Mr Roberts said.

The report comes just days before the US presidential election in which the Iraq war has been a major issue.

Mortality was already high in Iraq before the war because of United Nations sanctions blocking food and medical imports.

But the researchers described their findings after the war as shocking

(snip)

Two-thirds of violent deaths in the study were reported in Fallujah, the insurgent held city 50 kilometres west of Baghdad which has been repeatedly hit by US air strikes.


(snip)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1230305.htm

[Darranar]

28. The 100,000 figure encompasses more than violent deaths...

it includes things like starvation and sickness resulting from the invasion.

Link doesn't work BTW.

On edit: Link working now.

[Tinoire]

34. Hmmm update the link, try again...

What I'm understanding from their report is that 100,000 is mainly violent deaths. They included infant mortality but that only accounted for a total of 142 deaths (coalition bombings and births at home when security concerns prevented travel to hospital for delivery).

The rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by US air strikes on towns and cities, they said.

(snip)

Before the war the major causes of death were heart attacks, chronic disorders and accidents. That changed after the war.

Two-thirds of violent deaths in the study were reported in Fallujah, the insurgent held city 50 kilometres west of Baghdad which has been repeatedly hit by US air strikes.

But you know, except for death by natural causes, I hold us totally responsible. My figures may be off so anything you are anyone else has would be of great help!

====


I just went and found the actual report. Here are some interesting snippets from it:

Morgue-based surveillance data indicate the post-invasion homicide rate is many times higher than the preinvasion rate. In Baghdad, a city of 5 million people, 3000 gunshot-related deaths happened in the first 8 months of 2004. One project has kept a running estimate of press accounts of the number of Iraqi citizens killed by coalition forces: at present, the estimated range is 13000-15000 (http://www.iraqbodycount.net). Aside from the likelihood that press accounts are incomplete, this source does not record deaths that are the indirect result of the armed conflict. Other sources place the death toll much higher. In a recent BBC article decrying the lack of a reliable civilian death count from the war in Iraq, Ken Roth of Human Rights Watch purports that it will not be possible "to come up with anything better than a good guess at the final civilian cost".

(snip)

Violent deaths were defined as those brought about by the intentional acts of others.

(snip)

US General Tommy Franks is widely quoted as saying "we don't do body counts". The Geneva Conventions have clear guidance about the responsibilities of occupying armies to the civilian population they control. The fact that more than half the deaths reportedly caused by the occupying forces were women and children is cause for concern. In particular, Convention IV, Article 27 states that protected persons ". . . shall be at all times humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against acts of violence . . .". It seems difficult to understand how a military force could monitor the extent to which civilians are protected against violence without systematically doing body counts or at least looking at the kinds of casualties they induce. This survey shows that with modest funds, 4 weeks, and seven Iraqi team members willing to risk their lives, a useful measure of civilian deaths could be obtained. There seems to be little excuse for occupying forces to not be able to provide more precise tallies. In view of the political importance of this conflict, these results should be confirmed by an independent body such as the ICRC, Epicentre, or WHO. In the interim, civility and enlightened self-interest demand a re-evaluation of the consequences of weaponry now used by coalition forces in populated areas.

http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol364/iss9448/full/llan.364.9448.primary_research.31264.1

[Darranar]

47. Very interesting, thanks...

One project has kept a running estimate of press accounts of the number of Iraqi citizens killed by coalition forces: at present, the estimated range is 13000-15000 (http://www.iraqbodycount.net ). Aside from the likelihood that press accounts are incomplete, this source does not record deaths that are the indirect result of the armed conflict.

This, I think, is why the one hundred thousand figure is so much higher than the others - it is counting excess deaths, period, rather than those directly resulting from fighting during the invasion.

There is a difference between deaths caused by violence and violent deaths; even deaths indirectly caused by the invasion are deaths caused by violence, because war is merely violence on a massive scale.

Regardless of the exact total however, it is clear that a variety of war crimes and atrocities have been committed in Fallujah.

[Tinoire]

59. Yes...

Horrible though. I wonder if we will ever get any real figures...

Thanks for the correction

[Tinoire]

64. I need to print out that report and re-read it tomorrow

because according to my initial understanding and what I am reading in other articles that number doesn't include excess deaths. This bears looking into even though one life is one life too many.

VIEW: Iraq’s silent dead —Jeffrey Sachs

The Wall Street Journal actually wrote an editorial on November 18 that criticised the critics, noting as usual that whatever the US does, its enemies in Iraq do worse, as if this excuses American abuses. It does not. The US is killing massive numbers of Iraqi civilians, embittering the population and the Islamic world, and laying the ground for escalating violence and death


In late October, the British medical journal Lancet published a study of civilian deaths in Iraq since the US-led invasion began. The sample survey documented an extra 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths compared to the death rate in the preceding year, when Saddam Hussein was still in power — and this estimate did not even count excess deaths in Fallujah, which was deemed too dangerous to include.

The study also noted that the majority of deaths resulted from violence, and that a high proportion of the violent deaths were due to US aerial bombing. The epidemiologists acknowledged the uncertainties of these estimates, but presented enough data to warrant an urgent follow-up investigation and reconsideration by the Bush administration and the US military of aerial bombing of Iraq’s urban areas.

America’s public reaction has been as remarkable as the Lancet study, for the reaction has been no reaction. The vaunted New York Times ran a single story of 770 words on page 8 of the paper (October 29). The Times reporter apparently did not interview a single Bush administration or US military official. No follow-up stories or editorials appeared, and no New York Times reporters assessed the story on the ground. Coverage in other US papers was similarly frivolous. The Washington Post (October 29) carried a single 758-word story on page 16.

Recent reporting on the bombing of Fallujah has also been an exercise in self-denial. The New York Times (November 6) wrote that “warplanes pounded rebel positions” in Fallujah, without noting that “rebel positions” are actually in civilian neighbourhoods. Another New York Times story (November 12), citing “military officials,” dutifully reported that, “Since the assault began on Monday, about 600 rebels have been killed, along with 18 American and 5 Iraqi soldiers.” The issue of civilian deaths was not even raised.

Violence is only one reason for the increase in civilian deaths in Iraq. Children in urban war zones die in vast numbers from diarrhoea, respiratory infections, and other causes, owing to unsafe drinking water, lack of refrigerated foods, and acute shortages of blood and basic medicines at clinics and hospitals (that is, if civilians even dare to leave their houses for medical care). Yet the Red Crescent and other relief agencies have been unable to relieve Fallujah’s civilian population.

(snip)

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_5-12-2004_pg3_6


http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ which reports only the deaths that make the news has a running count of 14619-16804. Now that's frightening. That's only the numbers that made the news.

Casualty figures are derived solely from a comprehensive survey of online media reports. Where these sources report differing figures, the range (a minimum and a maximum) are given. All results are independently reviewed and error-checked by at least three members of the Iraq Body Count project team before publication.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/

So I browsed through their site and found this:

Monday 7th November 2004

IBC response to the Lancet study estimating "100,000" Iraqi deaths

Some people have asked us why we have not increased our count to 100,000 in the light of the multiple media reports of the recent Lancet study which claims this as a probable and conservative estimate of Iraqi casualties.

Iraq Body Count does not include casualty estimates or projections in its database. It only includes individual or cumulative deaths as directly reported by the media or tallied by official bodies (for instance, by hospitals, morgues and, in a few cases so far, NGOs), and subsequently reported in the media. In other words, each entry in the Iraq Body Count data base represents deaths which have actually been recorded by appropriate witnesses - not "possible" or even "probable" deaths.

The Lancet study's headline figure of "100,000" excess deaths is a probabilistic projection from a small number of reported deaths - most of them from aerial weaponry - in a sample of 988 households to the entire Iraqi population. Only those actual, war-related deaths could be included in our count. Because the researchers did not ask relatives whether the male deaths were military or civilian the civilian proportion in the sample is unknown (despite the Lancet website's front-page headline "100,000 excess civilian deaths after Iraq invasion", the authors clearly state that "many" of the dead in their sample may have been combatants ). Iraq Body Count only includes reports where there are feasible methods of distinguishing military from civilian deaths (most of the uncertainty that remains in our own count - the difference between our reported Minimum and Maximum - arises from this issue). Our count is purely a civilian count.

(snip)

We have always been quite explicit that our own total is certain to be an underestimate of the true position, because of gaps in reporting or recording. It is no part of our practice, at least as far as our published totals are concerned, to make any prediction or projection about what the "unseen" number of deaths might have been. This total can only be established to our satisfaction by a comprehensive count carried out by the Iraqi government, or other organisation with national or transnational authority.

Others have asked us to comment on whether the Lancet report's headline figure of 100,000 is a credible estimate. At present our resources are focused on our own ongoing work, not assessing the work of others. At an earlier stage, we did indeed provide an assessment of other counting projects , to provide what clarity we could for better public understanding of the issues involved. In that instance the projects under review were similar to ours, in that they attempted to amass data on actual deaths (and some of their findings have subsequently been integrated into our own count). Nonetheless, the Lancet's estimate of 100,000 deaths - which is on the scale of the death toll from Hiroshima - has, if it is accurate, such serious implications that we may return to the subject in greater detail in the near future. As of this writing we are more concerned with renewed air and ground attacks on Falluja, which last April left over 800 Iraqis dead, some 600 of them civilians (see previous IBC press release below).

(snip)

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial_june1203.htm (Extremely interesting!)


All of this very interesting, I am going to keep looking. Sadly, I don't think we'll ever really know.

“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US Central Command

[bicentennial_baby]

12. Cass!!!!

Is that you?! I've missed you so! :loveya: :hug:

[Tinoire]

17. :) Heather!

It's reciprocal! I'm so glad you're here! I've missed you too :hug: and am happy to be back :bounce:

[OxQQme]

15. Looks to me

that it's about the size of Queen's in New York.
Freeway cloverleaf there ?

I clicked those links.

Cried.

[Tinoire]

27. Sorry...

This nightmare is a little much but we'll end it. We have to.

Welcome to DU OxQQme! :toast:

[JNelson6563]

16. A Tinoire sighting!!!!!

I am really glad to see you Tinoire. Hope it's all good with you.

I don't have any info for your inquiry, just had to say Hi! :hi:

Julie

[Tinoire]

20. Hi Julie!

:hi: Good to see you still fighting the fight and glad to be back to do it with you!

If you find the number of civilian casualties in Fallujah, let me know. Please :hug:

[CatWoman]

24. Well, ah do dee-clare

HI, TINOIRE!!!!!!!! :hi:

[Tinoire]

26. Eartha!!!

;)

Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Good to see you M! :hi:

[DemoTex]

30. Hmm. Looks like Hue. Smells like Hue. Has a serpintine river like Hue.

By the way, for the young set. "Hue" is pronounced "Way."

My pictures of Hue:



See the river. Just like Fallujah. Marines, Hue-Fallujah. Bad shit. Period.



Bridges across the Perfume River. Hue 1970.

[Tinoire]

35. Sigh for the comparison

Thanks for the pictures... Reminds me of Thanks for the Memories in my sig line. Have you seen it? Appreciation goes to Arcane1 for distributing it. http://www.ericblumrich.com/thanks.html

:hi: fellow vet

[RedCheckShirt]

38. I'll bet it smells more like Jenin

Sharon flattened that place and slaughtered thousands (That was the opinion of observers on the ground, although the American press is prohibited from reporting it).

The massacre of Fallujah was patterned after Jenin.

[dweller]

31. Tin is back!

it's like Christmas come early.

:hi: ya stranger.

welcome back
dp

[Tinoire]

36. Hey Dweller!

Thank you. I can't believe the warm welcome! Frankly I'm touched. But very very happy to be back and to see all my old friends. :hug:

[Career Prole]

32. According to this writer there could be a steep price for Fallujah

Fallujans pose challenge to Iraq gov't

By MARIAM FAM
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- According to Iraq's government, people like Ismail Ibrahim should be glad Fallujah is all but rid of the insurgents accused of turning the city into a terrorist base and using its civilians as human shields.

But in a Baghdad school where Ibrahim and about 200 displaced Fallujans have been living since the latest fighting drove them out, the talk is of vendetta - not against the insurgents but against the Americans and the Iraqi government.

"I feel hatred. I hurt. This is my city and it has been destroyed," Ibrahim said, sitting on a thin mattress on the floor of a room he shares with his wife, seven children and another family.

"The people of Fallujah are people of revenge. If they don't get their revenge now, they will next year or even after 50 years. But they will get it."
more here

[Tinoire]

37. I can't blame them

From Sept 2003

(snip)

At the Fallujah hospital, Abed Rashid, a 50-year-old retired civil servant, said that he was sleeping with his family on the roof of his house when he heard Kalashnikov fire. As he ran downstairs, American helicopters started firing what he believed were rockets. Rashid, wounded in the chest and left foot, says, "This is genocide. This is not about overthrowing a government or regime change." Two boys, Hussein, 11, and his brother Tahseen, nine, were also severely wounded. Their father, Ali Khalaf Mohammed, 45, was killed.

(snip)

The Mayor

The mayor of Fallujah, Taha Bdaiwi, officiates in the Qaem Maqameiah - a building that not without irony was the former general security headquarters of the Ba'ath Party. The ante-chamber of his office is a true court of miracles, where an endless stream of citizens wait patiently to express all sorts of grievances. Says a local sheikh, "When the Americans are attacked on the highway, they always come to the nearest villages. And they take many prisoners, without any evidence. There was an attack near a factory: they took all the families living around it, including the women. They are using families as human shields. Some of the arrested are older than 50."

Many people in Fallujah repeat the same story: when American soldiers search houses for guns and find nothing, they take all the cash and gold. Fallujah's erratic supply of "national electricity", as the locals put it - two hours on, two hours off - is due to resistance attacks: "Last week there was no electricity because of resistance attacks. Electricity depends on loyalty to Americans." A pipeline was bombed twice in one week "because people believe this oil is not benefiting Iraq". But a local branch of Rafidain Bank was never attacked - even if there are always two American soldiers inside: "People know they are protecting their money."

(snip)

Fallujah is littered with graffiti. Some is pro-Saddam. None is pro-bin Laden. All encourage local citizens to harass and kill American soldiers. Posters plastered across the city warn everyone to stay very far from US convoys to avoid being hit. In the kebab shops, people say, "The Americans are cowards. They are now afraid of any gunshot coming from anywhere."

(snip)

The resistance officially began on June 28. "A peaceful gathering went to the mayor's building. There were troops inside. Then it went to a school: there was a military base inside. People were shouting: 'We want democracy, electricity, water'. The Americans opened fire, at first in to the air. Then against people. An old woman in her house beside the base was hit, along with her three sons: one was dead, one lost his leg, another lost his kidney. Many people went to hospital to donate blood. There were 73 wounded. They had to wait for more than two hours to be sent to hospital. No car could carry more than one wounded - and one car only every 30 minutes. The next day people went to the cemetery. As is our custom, they opened fire in the air to celebrate the dead. Many American helicopters and convoys then came and opened fire. That's how it started. There were 21 dead in two days."

(snip)

The Resistance

The citizens of Fallujah are adamant: the resistance is composed of members of families angry with or victims of violent American behavior, as well as former army soldiers and officers. They swear that they have not seen any Arab fedayeen (fighters) - and definitely no al-Qaeda. And there are no Ba'ath Party members in this indigenous resistance: "They are bad people. They have money. If you had money, would you risk your life resisting?" They insist that "the main reason for resisting is loyalty to your own country".

(snip)
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EI26Ak02.html

[Career Prole]

40. I wouldn't blame them either, but we're liberals.

We have the empathy gene. We can easily imagine what our thoughts/emotions would be were we subjected to the same.
This is why it's easy to claim repukes don't know how to see the world through the eyes of another.
They sit and say "Why don't they embrace us?"...proving that they really don't get it at all. Why on earth should they embrace us?
They hate us or fear us, and rightfully so.
Ah...and welcome back! :hi:

[Tinoire]

41. Yeah....

Empathy which would have prevented us from ever getting into that mess in the first place.

I read with sadness right wing posts (when I was googling "size of Fallujah") that said that for a town the "SIZE OF FALLUJAH", 10,000 troops isn't enough.

God forbid these idiots ever go to war against an opponent that wasn't weakened by decades of sanctions and bombings and can defend themselves with a real military.

I wonder if the war lovers are still expecting flowers after they've "liberated" the town...

Good to see you still here :hi:

[Minstrel Boy]

33. Lidice memorial:

Think it looks like a nice meadow? That's where Lidice used to be.

Hitler had all residents killed and the town literally wiped off the map as revenge for the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich, the Nazi "Protector of Bohemia and Moravia."

What's the current exchange rate? How many Iraqi lives for four Blackwater mercenaries?

[Tinoire]

39. Sad

Everytime I think of Fallujah, I too remember Lidice.

Yet we say we are not Nazis. Go figure.

[alcuno]

42. Don't you remember when Fallujah was a town?

The US propaganda machine used to always refer to Fallujah as a town, as in "Don't worry about the resistance from the people of Fallujah, it's only a town."

Baghdad has 22 million? It's bigger than Chicago and the Chicago suburbs combined? There are only 3 million Iraqis not living in Baghdad? That number doesn't seem correct.

[Tinoire]

48. That does seem high.

I must have mis-pasted :shrug: What I'm finding now is around 6.5 million. My apologies.

Why is it so difficult to find good figures on Iraq?!

[Liberal Mommy]

43. Fallujah Map From University of Georgia

Fallujah Map

I really had to zoom in to actually see Fallujah but according to the map scale you are correct about its size.

[Tinoire]

50. I'm totally in shock over its size!

And thanks for that site! Downloaded a great map from there (http://www.hiciraq.org/mapcentre/geographic/cityplans/fallujah/index.asp)

Can you believe it's that tiny? How embarrassing for the war hawks.

[IllegalCombatant]

44. Post Strike Assessment of southern Fallujah (satellite images)

before...

after...


more...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/fallujah_poststrike_01.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/fallujah_poststrike_02.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/fallujah_poststrike_03.htm

:cry:

[Tinoire]

51. 9 days huh?

Most depressing. Wish we could get an even better closeup...

[BeHereNow]

45. TINOIRE! Where HAVE you been?

It's been a dark and dreary place
without you...
bhn

[Tinoire]

52. Oh lol

Surely you jest my good friend :) I can't imagine for one minute that it was dark and dreary if you were posting!

Very happy to be back and see you again!

:hug:

[Gary173]

46. Fallujah in detail

Photos, space photography, the gore of war. The pain of 1967/68 flooded my mind as I viewed these pages. Vietnam- a waste of American lives. Iraq- a waste of American lives.

http://www.eyeball-series.org/

[Tinoire]

54. Whoa! Great site but had to take the www out to get there

http://eyeball-series.org/

Some of the links really got to me. Thanks for providing that wealth of info!

And, on edit, WELCOME TO DU Gary!!! :toast:

[madfloridian]

49. I break my silence to welcome my old friend...gone since at least July!

Welcome, we missed you. No answers, just welcome.

[Tinoire]

55. Hi!!

:hug:

Good to see you! Very, very happy. But please, no silence :) I need to read enlightened posts like yours in order to realize, constantly realize, that we're not so alone. We have so much work to do- never mind the damn agenda-driven fools who don't will do anything and everything to shut people like you up.

GO for it my friend because it may be a long 4 years. I've got your back! Anytime, anywhere!

:hug:

[Algorem]

53. but wasn't it charming that Bush used a coin from Fallujah for toin-coss

at Army-Navy game Saturday?

[Tinoire]

56. No!

You're joking right?! Please tell me that microcephalic moron didn't do that!

May. he. burn. in. hell.

[Algorem]

57. I think it's in 13th paragraph here:

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=78970&ran=52744 What the hell was it supposed to MEAN?

[Tinoire]

60. Disgusting!

He's so.... sordid. Thanks for digging that up. Just when you think he an be no more obscene...

====
Three former Midshipmen killed in action this year were remembered this way as Bush walked to midfield to flip a coin that was flown in from Fallujah.

Minutes earlier, Dubya appeared before each team in the locker rooms.

“He spoke for a few seconds,” said safety Josh Smith, who scored Navy’s third touchdown when he returned an interception 67 yards.

What did he say?

“Go out and bust their heads, or something,” said Smith. “He probably told Army the same thing.”

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=78970&ran=52744

[Forkboy]

58. Great to see you back!

:hi:

[Tinoire]

61. How could I stay away from a man who preferred unemployment

to printing shirts that said "Nuke Afghanistan"? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2785620#2785623 (post 3)

Forkboy you're an unsung hero! :toast:

Wish there were more like you. It's great to see you :)

[Forkboy]

62. The best thing about that

was my normally hardass father saying he understood and didn't blame me for doing what I did.I really expected him to get on me for it because he's always harping on me and my unrealistic "ideals" :) It was really good to get the support of my family and friends.

It's too bad because it was the first job I had that I really felt I had a future at.My boss,who was repub but fairly cool,treated me great,helped me out if I needed money and generally was preppeing me to take over his business.I could really use that paycheck now but I thought that the shirts were just too much.And when he called me unAmerican for my feelings that nuking people isn't good I had had enough.I'm sure I could have been more diplomatic,but as you've all seen here at DU diplomacy isn't my specialty :D

[Tinoire]

63. But humor is

Ever run into your old boss again? He doesn't sound like a bad person... Maybe you could smooth things over because your livelyhood is important too. I dunno, maybe we could order 100 or 200 liberal-type shirts ;)

On edit: I have yet to see you be undiplomatic at DU... Maybe your old boss should have had a "moderator warning system" :shrug:

[Forkboy]

66. I dont live on Cape Cod anymore

Which is where it was.I did talk to him a couple times afterwards but it was pretty tense.And to be fair,I left him hanging with a some big ass orders to do so I wouldn't hire me back either.He needs someone who he can count on not to lose their cool...and that's not me. :)

I have yet to see you be undiplomatic at DU

You have GOT to be kidding me :evilgrin:

[Tinoire]

68. Well in that case

You just moved to the top of my prayer list! And no, I'm serious... I've often envied the way you come back with witty repartees without losing your cool. Of course, I have no way of telling how many of those "message deleted" are yours :)

Peace

[Crunchy Frog]

65. Nice to see you again Tiniore.

I've stopped using Iams. I emailed the company and told them it was because of them advertising with Sinclair, but I had already stopped, based on your information.

With respect to Falluja, I'm to the point where nothing this regime does can shock me. I've gotten to the point of just being numb. I think it's the only way I'm going to be able to survive the next four years.

I hope you're doing OK.

[Tinoire]

67. Hi my friend

:hug: to you. I know what you mean about being numb. For the next 4 years my goal is to strike a balance between remaining as 'comfortably numb' as possible and still trying to make a difference in word and action. Tough goal when the very sight of those bastards makes your blood pressure rise.

It's good to see you again and thanks for dumping IAMS. Somehow we just have to bring back a respect for life starting with the already formed leaves of people and animals. Thanks for bringing a big smile to my face on a Monday morning!

:hi:

[G_j]

70. good to see you back!

I did not realize either how small Fallujah is.
:-( and now they want the residents to wear identification badges!
===========

[bluedonkey]

71. n/t

yellow half moons?

[tedzbear]

72. Here's what it looks like on the ground:

http://www.fallujahinpictures.com/