Can you win by losing?

[justinsb]

Let's assume, for the moment, that the election results are as described, that Bush is going to be in the white house for 4 more years and that both houses of congress are controlled by the Republicans - that means that they would have to take responsibility for everything that happens in the next 4 years and already not only are Liberals in the US galvanized and energized, but the world is galvanized and energized against the current administration. Do you think it's possible that by losing this election the left in the US will win a much greater, lasting and sweeping victory down the road? Forgive me if this discussion has already been had and I missed it.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

1. The new "ownership" society and ultimate accountability

I agree that there is a bright spot in this black hole. The Democrats need to drive home the Republican theme of "ownership society" with this administration/congress being held accountable. Use THEIR words to the Democrats advantage.

[sui generis]

2. that may be optimistic

remember that party lies cheats steals and re-writes the rules and constitution when it suits them.

Down the road, the democratic party may be illegal, and there are plenty of sheeple who would just blindly go along with that here in Jesusland.

[bobbobbins]

3. its all clintons fault, and always will be

[KitchenWitch]

5. Geez

That Bill Clinton must be one POWERFUL mofo! Must suck to be the root cause of all evil!

[BlueEyedSon]

4. Add this to your analysis: for the next 4 years, as it has been for the

last 4, the media will convince everyone that everything in the US is A-OK. No mistakes have been made. Anything which might feel wrong or bad (like lots of dead American soldiers, more terror attacks, a shitty economy) are the unavoidable and the result of "external" factors.

Unless the MSM grows a set and tells the truth, does real critical analysis on your TV right there, fuggedaboudit.

If the masses can truly see the failings of the Bush admin and its policies (heh, it hasn't so far!) the repubs will be out of office for 50 years.

"Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise."

--Adolph Hitler

[PATRICK]

7. How about the last twenty years

While waiting for the people to get fed up with the GOP, the news media works more and more for the GOP, and the Dems bend farther and farther away from leading any reaction or supporting clearer stands against the tide of madness.

That argument is conjectural depending on the Dems suddenly becoming inconsistent with their their ideological passivity and the media having that change of heart people are always willing to spot.

I dread the fact that this comfort, while countless victims die and America is ground into graveyard dust, has been the attitude of the past two decades by which democratic leaders patiently console themselves, trying to conserve myths that they will get as default caretakers when the glutted GOP bursts at the seams while the people and the nation perish.

This is not looking ahead, but following behind the slaughter.

As long as we allow the rather rigidly stupid neocons to have the initiative and stay one step ahead we are party to murder and these hopes are not only pale and vain but a cop out. No offense because of course the common man is allowed his hopes. We expect a lot more from otherwise committed and intelligent leadership than "Old King Log".

[BlueEyedSon]

9. Yeah I guess Nixon is the last 'pub that the press hassled. nt

[justinsb]

11. Ok...but

Since even if the current vote count stands, the Dems only lost by about 2% - how long can the media, even with all the influence they have, convince people that the ship isn't sinking when the water level gets higher by the week. If 2 years from now, or 4 years from now everyone is treading water, will the media's message still have resonance?

[BlueEyedSon]

20. Yup, the people only know & think what they are told.

This election was proof of that.

If you need more:

Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer to Congress saying that Iraq did not have a significant WMD program, 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.

Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have exactly opposite perceptions.

These are some of the findings of a new study of the differing perceptions of Bush and Kerry supporters, conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitudes and Knowledge Networks, based on polls conducted in September and October.

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/html/new_10_21_04.html

[peacetalksforall]

6. Yes, win, but with irreparable harm ...

Jut how many of their coming attempts to reverse this country and imperialize the world can be undone?

. Nine Scalias.
. Integration of church and state.
. Standing in line poverty with NO WPA type projects.
. ID control with revenge and retribution for those whose iris is on the enemy list.
. The 'officializing' of our young people as corporate foreign police with a statement of 'just get over it' when they die and are maimed in flank after flank.
. The renaming of the United States as the Republic of Corporations.


Too far out?

[Old and In the Way]

8. I think so.

This administration and the Republican Party conducted a 4 year campaign and spent $750MM on this election.....and still needed to game the system to win. The word is out on voter fraud....it's just not a small subset of Democrats/progressives that understand this issue now. Election reform should be the country's top priority.....certainly for the majority that got screwed again. The results of the 1st 4 years of Bush Republican policy will manifest itself in very tangible ways for the bottom 90% and that will continue to erode their base.

The 2006 mid-terms should be our focus now. Elect new Democrats that will be radicalized and energized to take on the Republican incumbants. If we can recover majorities, real investigations start. And impeachment/criminal prosecution becomes a very real weapon to expose the truth.

Our numbers are growing, Republicans numbers will erode as they lose the middle. I totally expect Democracy to return....with a vengence.

[theboss]

10. Yes and no

The Conservatives in 1964 took over the Republican Party and were obliterated in the election. Four years later, they won the White House. By the 80s, they were clearly on the rise. And today, they control the dialogue. The same thing could happen for us.

The biggest problem though is they knew what they stood for in 1964. I don't think we do right now.

[Sterling]

15. We do.

Our rich fat cat party hacks however.....

[kentuck]

12. But what do you win ?

What scattered jewels will be salvageable?

[seabeyond]

13. there is a higher in all things

the last 4 years were for democrats to unite. they made some progress yet i feel ignored the essence

there were 4 years for the country to disown the liar and crook, the greeed.......and the people (though i believe stolen, we won) too many of the people embrace the ugly, corrupt

told boys, this is their lesson not ours. we dont have to participate, we already know

[Sterling]

14. Well if we had a candidate that truely expressed our message

then yes. Even if Kerry had lost on a platform that was not corporate oriented we would have made more progress in society than what we got. We tried to out W W. That wont do a whole lot to advace your agenda in the end.

[sangh0]

16. Waiting for Godot?

Maybe someday, you'll stop waiting for someone else to fight your battles.

[Doctor_J]

17. yes, but not at the current loss levels

The german people during WWII were pretty happy right up until the time bombs started falling on berlin. That's when hitler's media whores could no longer keep reality at bay. It's pleasant to think that americans will come to their senses before the war comes home, but I don't know if it's likely, sadly. The truth is they don't care enough about unemployment, underemployment, vote fraud, civil liberties, or dead iraqis to do anything about it.

[chaska]

18. This is not the first such comment I've heard...

I've heard a couple of high profile guests on Pacifica radio say that this is the high water mark for Bushco. It's all downhill from here.

Let's hope so. But they've also said that things are going to get very bad in the US - financially and otherwise.

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. Yes. But Americans aren't use to that kind of suffering.