Howard Dean isn't waiting until Wednesday.

[kentuck]

http://hoffmania.blogspot.com/2004/12/dean-on-dean.html

<snip>

- Democrats need to learn by our previous mistakes - we have tried being "Republican-lite" and it does not work. It is a mistake to run away from the things we believe and I think we can win in the so-called Republican states by being real Democrats.

We have to realize that there are no red states and no blue states, just American states. I believe the country is still more in sync with Democratic values than Republican values. Our task is to remind ourselves and the American people of the hallmark issues that distinguish Democrats from Republicans.

For example, Democrats historically tackle economic issues with bold, common-sense policies. Our last Democratic president created 22 million new jobs in this country. In the last four years, George W. Bush oversaw the loss of over 1.5 million. Democrats balance budgets, Republicans do not. Democrats consistently try to pass legislation that would provide some kind of affordable health care, Republicans do not. Democrats believe we ought to raise the minimum wage to help the average worker keep up with the cost of living, Republicans do not. Democrats believe corporations have too much power over our daily lives; Republicans do not - and to prove it, they have given away billions of dollars of our tax money to the biggest corporations in the world over the last four years.

On each of these issues, the majority of the American people are with Democrats not Republicans. Democrats have the right beliefs to win; we just execute a poor public relations plan.
..more

[WI_DEM]

1. I honestly think Dean's "No Red states not Blue States"

resonates. Once again he is on target.

[asjr]

4. Dean is THE MAN. I wish he would bring up that this was

a stolen election. Everyone knows it, some just will not acknowledge it.

[hlthe2b]

9. Yes.... couldn't agree more...

Dean is perfect for the job in so many ways, not to mention his being a physician who reformed health care financing in Vermont makes him perfect to take on Frist. Dr. Dean, we support you, fully. Shake up that damned DLC--marginalize them to the sidelines where they belong and bring the Democratic party roaring back where it belongs.

[ClarkUSA]

51. Actually, Barack Obama was the first to say this at the Convention...

and since then it's been popular. I actually support Dean as DNC Chairman but
I don't like the fact that he won't pledge not to run in 2008. Being DNC Chairman and running for President at the same time is impossible.

Let's not get into a pissing match. Dean would make a great DNC Chairman, but
he must stop being coy about running again in 2008 because we need someone we can count on to be there 100% for us for the next four years.

Dean is running for DNC Chairman so he's going around making speeches. Fine.
Like I said, I hope he gets it, though I hope either Rosenberg or Ickes (who made
ACT what it is) gets to run day-to-day operations, because this Party needs centralized organizational planning.

As for the "What has General Wes Clark" been doing lately question, the answer is that he supported his old friend Charlie Melancon in the LA runoff this past Saturday (Melancon won). And he ran interference for Kerry/Edwards nonstop
on TV and in campaign appearances all through September, October and November. What was Dean doing then?

General Clark is not running for DNC Chairman so he has no reason to be running around making speeches, though he did write a widely-acclaimed OpEd in the Washington Post on how badly Bush is f*cking up in Iraq on Nov. 14, 2004. In case anyone wants to read it (this entire oped was reprinted for immediate distribution by truthout.org) :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47034-2004Nov12.html

and also participated in a live online forum, whose answers are archived here:

http://knightrider.forclark.com/story/2004/11/13/20912/447

[cali]

72. You asked what Dean was doing

in Sept., Oct., etc. Let me fill you in. A month after dropping out Dean transformed Dean for America into Democracy for America. He and DFA members raised over 5 million dollars for candidates. The so called Dean dozen actually numbered 90 something- candidates running for everything from school board to U.S Senator. Obama was one of the original Dean dozen. On Nov. 2, a third of these progressive and liberal candidates won. In addition, Dean campaigned unstintiingly for Kerry/Edwards throughout the country. He made numerous TV and radio appearances and debated folks as diverse as Ralph Nader and Ralph Reed. He warned of BBV voting. He sent out the word about Washington State and Chris Gregoire's need for funds to achieve a recount, raising another significant amount of money for a worthy cause. Barely a week goes by that he doesn't speak on a college campus. Last week Stanford, the week before Yale.
Hope this answers your question about Dean's whereabouts over the past few months. Oh yeah, if you're not into starting pissing matches, don't spray all over the place.

[ClarkUSA]

87. I Know About DFA -- worked with them in my area...

I liked the local rep alot. Apologies for any confusion about my question about Dean, cali and Julie. I am just giving you back how hurtful and snide it sounds when someone asks about any candidate, "What was (fill-in-blank) doing?"

I know Dean has contributed alot but can you both acknowledge that General Clark has also contributed quite a bit? It's obvious he did all the heavy lifting during te six-week SBV silence from the DNC ticket. He's asked people to contribute via WesPAC and many of the candidates he's visibly supported and personally campaigned with like Patti Murray of WA, Melissa Bean of IL, Charlie Melancon of LA, Ben Chandler of KY and more have gone on to hard-fought victory. I know that many of the Dean Dozen on DFA cross-referenced support with Emily's List as well as with the DSCC and DCCC and WesPAC, so know that it's been a team effort.

[cali]

89. Honestly, I haven't kept up too much with

what Clark's been doing, but I like Clark a lot and I'll gladly take your word that he's been busy doing good things. What I don't understand is why you felt compelled to "give it back". I've never said anything but good things about Clark and if I ever did ask what he's been up to, it wouldn't be a snide question, but one of genuine interest. Nor have I seen negative posts about Clark from other Dean supporters,

[ClarkUSA]

93. Thanks, cali. See my reply to janz to explain the confusion....

I wasn't replying to you but to the person further down in the thread (the comment sounded snide when that person said it -- it was the context) and posted to far up to respond to reply #1. Sorry, I am not used to DU posting.

[JNelson6563]

90. Tit for tat?

You got snarky cause someone inquired what Clark had done? Why not just list what he'd done and shut them up? So much more productive, don't you think?

Personally, regarding the future (08), I am not as interested in what potential candidates did for 04, I will be watching to see what people do between now and then.

As to this:

It's obvious he did all the heavy lifting during te six-week SBV silence from the DNC ticket.

Actually it was a three week period, still way too long IMO and no, sorry, I do not believe Clark did "all the heavy lifting" during any period. If he was the only principle out there for any period of time he'd have gotten some coverage on the MSM because, in order to hide their agenda, they always gave the Dems *some* coverage. I saw a lot more Dean than Clark in MSM. That doesn't necessarily mean he was more active for the K/E campaign, it does demonstrate Clark was never out there as the lone voice though, thus refuting your point. I will be glad to give Clark some credit (never denied he was helpful) but I won't give more than is due--to anyone.

Julie

[ClarkUSA]

95. Not tit for tat, just being sarcastic, which New Yorkers tend to be...

It was a LONG six week period when Kerry didn't fight back personally against
the SBV smears and they sent the General out to do it because only he could do it
of all the Democrats out there without sounding like an idiot.

I am specifically referring to his doing dozens of talk show appearances as well as rallies with Kerry, Rasmussen and other Congressional candidates where he punched back HARD against Bush and defended Kerry's right to speak out when he came back from Vietnam just as he defended Michael Moore's right to speak out against the Iraq War when he was a CNN military commentator and also MM's
right to have his opinion about W being a deserter during the NH primary.

I am not referring to all the contributions Dean and other candidates gave to the collective effort to support Kerry during that time. If I gave that impression to you, I apologize. I really need to get used to DU.

Thanks for being fair, Julie.

[JNelson6563]

98. It's all good

I know the General did all he could for our side. Many did, even some of us who weren't all that enthusiastic about Kerry. I think it was impressive that some of the candidates who lost the primary still worked hard for K/E. It was a very classy thing to do IMO.

Cheers--:toast:

Julie

[HootieMcBoob]

112. Dean and Clark are our best hope

I supported Clark in the primaries because I thought he was the best candidate and would have wiped the floor with Bush but I was a strong supporter of Dean as well and never said a bad word about him.

Dean has got to be the new DNC Chairman. He will remake the Democratic party for the better.

Clark needs to stay out there in the public eye. He's the best we have when it comes to taking it to the msm he articulates progressive ideas very well and he does not back down. He would make a fantastic Presidential candidate in 2008.

With people like Dean and Clark and Obama we're headed in the right direction.

[calimary]

111. Good of you to present this reminder. Dean DID do all those things.

His actions roared back at those who huffed and puffed that he was going to sit this one out like some spoiled sport if he didn't get the nomination, or refuse to throw his support OR supporters behind whoever was the nominee. I remember all the naysayers.

He put his money where his formidable mouth was.

And yet again, he's being dumped on.

Look, people, can we STOP looking a gift horse in the mouth for once?

WHO THE HELL CARES about the if-he-gets-DNC-chairman-he-can/can't/will/won't-run-for-president crap??!?!??!

Because that is what it is. Pure crap.

Guys, can we just get him (AND OURSELVES) going on this? PERIOD? How 'bout let's all push for him to GET IN, for heaven's sakes, and then quibble about the kibbles and bits and will/he's/won't/he's/shouldn't/he's LATER?? Like, AFTER he's had the chance actually to get in there and start working and accomplishing something and getting us somewhere as Democrats, FOR A CHANGE?

I will be SO glad to see Terry McAuliffe go. And all the rest of 'em. If this last election isn't proof that we neeed new blood and a new approach, I do NOT know what the heck is.

And as for Wesley Clark - HOW COME our two top, most lustrous, most potential-filled people are being pushed into the wilderness?

We need these two. BADLY. Straight up front and center, with bright lights on 'em and full orchestration and all the dancing girls and sets and costumes behind them. So they can get to work pulling us out of this hole!

[JNelson6563]

84. Don't piss if you don't want pissing match dear

Your claim that you don't want to get into a pissing match is counter-intuitive to the rest of your transparent post.

Clark helped his buddy win did he? Impressive. Here's what Dean accomplished along with helping out the sad campaign of K/E:

• One of the two new Democratic United States senators was a "Dean Dozen" candidate--Barack Obama (D-Ill.). Obama and the other new Democratic senator, Ken Salazar (D-Colo.), received contributions from DFA.

• One "Dean Dozen" candidate won her race for Congress, Allyson Schwartz (D-PA) and DFA contributed to five of the fourteen incoming freshman Democratic Members of Congress.

• Some of the notable non-federal success stories include:

• Both of the new Democratic governors are "Dean Dozen" candidates: John Lynch (D-NH) and Brian Schweitzer (D-Mont.)

• Two "Dean Dozen" candidates won their mayoral race: Peter Corroon was elected as mayor of Salt Lake County, Utah and Tom Potter was elected as mayor of Portland, Ore.

• Democracy for America contributed more than $600,000 to 634 candidates for non-federal office. 319 of those candidates won--a 50% win-loss record.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates were elected to state legislatures in 16 states. Candidates for legislature who received Democracy for America contributions, but were not part of the "Dean Dozen," were elected in an additional 12 states.

• Democracy for America played a large role in regaining several legislative chambers for the Democrats, including: the Colorado House and Senate, the North Carolina House, the Oregon Senate, the Vermont House and the Washington Senate. DFA also helped secure a tie in the Iowa Senate.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates were elected to the bench in Alabama and Georgia.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates also won races for soil & water commission, supervisor of elections, township clerk, county commission and constable.

Governor Dean commented on the election results:

"The Dean Dozen candidates and the hundreds of other candidates that Democracy for America supported are the future of the Democratic Party. Win or lose, these fiscally responsible, socially progressive citizens fought to take our country back and helped spread the message that to change America, Democrats must compete everywhere, including the red states."

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/features/2004/11/17/dean_dozen_success_stories.php

I don't blame you for claiming you don't want to get into a pissing match. Perhaps now you will realize, you really don't.

As to whether Dean will or won't run for office in 04, quit your incessant whining. It only makes you look insecure about Clark's prospects. You want Clark to run in 08 and you don't seem very concerned about whether or not he does anything for anyone but himself between now and then. That's your choice but some of us have higher standards. I contend that Dean could chair the DNC for a couple of years, hand it off in much better shape than he got it and then run for the WH in 08, if that's what he wants to do. I see no either/or choice here but, then again, I believe Dean is capable enough to do what I just listed. Considering the list I posted above was accomplished in less than a year, I'd say there is ample evidence to back up my belief in Dean's capacity.

I'll be here, if you want to dance.

Julie

[ClarkUSA]

91. Read my reply to cali and also know that alot of people donated monies

in a team Democratic Party effort, not just DFA. I personally worked with Congressional candidates and their staff on campaigns who also credited active contributions from Clark supporters with their success who were Dean's Dozen, too, and I also worked with DFA in my area (the guy is terrific and we get along really well), so I just have the perspective that success in this past election year was a team effort amongst all liberal interests working together, not just DFA.
I certainly think that DFA is a great asset to the liberal movement at the grassroots level, but it is not the only successful model. We need every one we
can create and if candidates' groups could integrate and team up to gangbang
the GOP instead of having pissing matches, we'd be invincible. That's what I said
to the DFA reps in my area, all of whom are outstanding individuals I admire and
they agreed with me.

I have no clue about what you term "incessant whining" or my "insecurity" but forgive me for being a newbie, Julie. I may be expressing myself badly and for that I am sorry if I inadvertantly offended any Dean supporter. I am not in the least insecure about General Clark running in 2008. It's up to him. I hope he does because I think we'll be in really bad shape by 2008 and that it will be good to have a four-star general and former Supreme Allied Commander of Europe who saved 1.5 million Albanians from genocide. This is according to Pulitzer-Prize winning author Samantha Powers who also endorsed General Clark for President: http://www.anca.org/pressrel.asp?prid=503&pressregion=anca
But if he doesn't, I hope he continues with WesPAC and continues to help the Party
build up its strength and support its candidates in the future. I hope both Gen. Clark and Dr. Dean really raise a stink about election reform or else it won't matter who runs in 2008.

I like the idea of Dean as DNC Chairman very much since he's charismatic and hardhitting but I doubt realistically whether he'll get serious consideration for the post if he doesn't pledge not to run in 2008, as many in the DNC have requested -- as they are requiring of everyone who wants the position, like Vilsack which is one reason he declined. And I want him to get serious consideration because I think he'll kick some Democratic ass <g>. I really do not want another wimpy DNC hack.

By the way, I would feel the same way if someone suggested that General Clark run as Governor of Arkansas (GOP mouthpiece Gov. Huckabee has run up against a term-limit) to get some legislative experience under his belt (even though running NATO is very akin to being governor to almost a million dependents) and then bail out early just to run in 2008.

[JNelson6563]

99. I'm guilty of a generalization too

In the "incessent whining" comment, you are right, that is not necessarily something you personally are guilty of, I've seen it from several Clark supporters though and I stand by my statement of how it looks.

As to money, no need to tell me that it wasn't just DFA. I hauled ass here in northern MI and had a hand in some serious fundraising for my local Dem party, of which I hold a seat on the E-board. We tripled our revenues. The rest of my board nearly had a collective stroke when informed of jsut what we did money-wise this year. The only one not thrilled beyond words was our poor, horribly over-worked treasurer. We even went a step further and became a federal PAC so we could contribute heavily to national candidates.

I couldn't agree more that all that was accomplished for our side was a massive team effort by countless hard-working souls. While we won't be taking the WH in January, we still have a lot to be proud of.

Now the challenge will be to keep up the momentum. I am convinced we can achieve victory on many levels, especially if we continue the great teamwork.

Julie

[janx]

88. Which post are you responding to?

Your message doesn't make any sense if you are responding to post #1.

:shrug:

[ClarkUSA]

92. Sorry, janx, I was responding to something further down this thread...

where someone asked the "What's Clark been doing?" line and didn't realize that my post would cause confusion because I also wanted to respond to reply #1 too.

I really am a newbie. Sorry everyone.

[janx]

94. Gotcha. Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[ClarkUSA]

97. Thanks, janx, for being such a honey. I have to watch what I say...

and how I say it. Typing away on a completely new forum to the ones I'm used to
is a learning experience. I am trying, though I don't always have the time to get here. Glad to be a part of this, though. :pals:

[janx]

100. Dean's not being coy, ClarkUSA.

This decision involves the future of DFA much more than any presidential aspirations he might have. (And he hasn't said anything about that; good heavens, it's only 2004).

Dean has taken his time and talked to a lot of people about this, so I'm sure that any decision he makes about the DNC will be a very informed and measured one.

One thing I can tell you is that there is a contingent inside the DNC who back Dean for the position, and these people want to change the nature of the position. How, exactly, they want to change it, I don't know, but I can hazard a few guesses.

I don't think that any candidate for DNC chair should have to "pledge" anything, personally. And it's far too premature to ask anyone to do so.

So let's just wait and see how things shake out in the next month or so. Dean hasn't said that he really wants the position yet, but he has been exploring the possibility for some time, and we'll probably hear something about that soon. There's a meeting in Florida on Saturday concerning the DNC matter.

As far as Clark goes--I've always admired him.

[ewagner]

2. Dean for DNC Chair

I think this guy has the energy, ideas and LEADERSHIP to bring us to victory. I'll support him for this post anyway I can.

[tk2kewl]

3. Dean is the MAN!

:kick:

[asjr]

6. We think alike!

[Bombtrack]

5. Not only have I heard Dean say these same exact things 80 million times,

it doesn't get any less meaningless and cliche'd every new time he repeats it

[BurtWorm]

8. What is meaningless about "no red states and no blue states," for example?

Or Americans are more in sync with Democratic values? Can I explain some of the meanings for you?

[Bombtrack]

18. You people act as if it's some brave announcement

nobody is going to disagree with these frigging safe vague applause lines.

[BurtWorm]

20. So this stuff doesn't need to be said?

Why not? Is any other Democrat saying this? Where and when?

[otohara]

85. "You People" Posts

Could you be more specific?

[XemaSab]

104. Considering....

....the number of people in DU proud that their state went blue, or upset that their state went red, or calling for secession, or making snide remarks about "Jesusland," or saying that we should have let the south bail back in the day, or any other remarks that are basically regional us vs. them, I'd say that a lot of people around here NEED to be reminded that we're really all purple states.

Especially the Good Doctor's statements about how running a campaign focused exclusively on swing states isn't working out, and we need to run in all 50 states. Not popular in some circles, but that's what needs to happen, and he's brave for saying it.

[Justitia]

11. I totally misread your insulting post

I thought you were saying the opposite and I responded by saying hearing Dean speak is like:

somebody opened a window on a crisp, sunny winter day - a breath of fresh air.

When I hear Dean speak, it's like taking a hit of straight oxygen when you feel faint.

For a moment, I forgot who I was responding to - silly me.

[WI_DEM]

17. meaningless?

I wish more dems would say it. And if he has said it many times it is because the party heiarchy isn't getting the message. Do you disagree with what he is saying?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BurtWorm]

21. Why are you making this personal?

Speaking for myself, it's not Dean I'm reacting to, it's the message.

[Cheswick2.0]

25. he's making it personal because to him it is personal

it's about us not agreeing with him.

[Bombtrack]

28. "the message", "this stuff" what specifically is so awe-enspiring that

needs to be rushed to the presses. Nothing. He's said it a million times. Whatever wannabe populist sounding dogcatcher candidate from Omaha has said it a million times. It's not worth a new thread much lesss a friggin parade of praise.

[kentuck]

30. Repubs win with their intellectualism?

It's about connecting to the people...if it's simple, so be it.

[BurtWorm]

31. What has Clark said worth listening to lately?

I don't know because no one pays attention to Clark these days. Maybe it's not fair that they don't, but as he's slipped into the background of the nation's consciousness, it's encouraging to me, anyway, that one Democrat is talking about rebuilding and renewal while the Harry Reid's are talking about dancing not fighting, and the Kerrys and Edwards are saying absolutely nothing.

PS: Let the record show that it wasn't a Dean person who started this petty sniping.

[BurtWorm]

36. *crickets*

[neuvocat]

53. Really.

No one's paying attention to him these days?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=235

Take a look at this article while you're at it-it was written on the 14th.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47034-2004Nov12.html

And as far as the petty sniping goes, you should really follow the example of the candidate you supported during the primaries, otherwise you're going to reflect that person with your behavior in a bad way.

[BurtWorm]

54. I think it was a fair question given the attack on Dean's message.

From a Clark supporter, I might add. Let's follow our own advice, shall we? My statement was nothing against Clark. I like Clark. But he's not exactly on the forefront of the nation's consciousness. I'd like to see and hear more from him and other Democrats who challenge the status quo.

[neuvocat]

58. Forget it.

Obviously you see fit to cast the first stone. No one has time for discussions with people of that mentality so I'm just going to put you on the ignore list.

[BurtWorm]

60. No skin off my nose.

You ignored who really cast the first stone in this thread, not to mention that I have said nothing at all derogatory about Clark or his supporters generally, unlike a certain other participant in this thread who came into the discussion with guns blazing for both Dean and his supporters.

[ProfessorGAC]

64. Burt Didn't Cast The First Stone

Reading for comprehension is a skill. Go back and peruse the thread again.
The Professor

[BurtWorm]

66. Thanks, perfesser!

:hi:

[JNelson6563]

109. Behavior reflection on candidate....

So, say someone sent nasty PMs to another when their candidate dropped out. Or say someone sent nasty PMs trying to start a brawl cause they know such behavior wouldn't be tolerated on the open boards. What kind of a reflection is that on the person's candidate?

Be careful with your answer, PMs have a long shelf life and can be brought out to make points.

Watching for reply with interest...

Julie

[BurtWorm]

113. I'll bet there's a true story behind your post.

;)

[JNelson6563]

114. I'd suggest you wager big

;-)

[MessiahRp]

67. Both Men are Fantastic

I don't think we should reopen the can of worms from the primaries. Both men are fantastic and will be extremely important torch bearers for the party for the next four years and beyond.

Rp

[Cheswick2.0]

34. LOL

:cry: I am sure we are all woundd to the core! :hi:

[tk2kewl]

45. but when the right screams to lock up homos it gets in the press

why shouldnt sensible statements about what politics should be about get press too

[janx]

48. Because it doesn't sell as many commercials. n/t

[alaintex]

106. Lock up homos, I missed that press clipping.

[Cheswick2.0]

23. nevermind

[WI_DEM]

26. you see I can't take you seriously

because you have always been so anti-Dean that you lose all credibility. You also have a tendency to negatively label Dean supporters. I see you support Clark, but if you haven't noticed there are many fervent Clark supporters as well and I don't see you labeling them. What demonization of other Democrats is Dean making in this statement? It's funny because many of the "Deaniacs" you love to attack actually got over Dean losing the nomination and worked very hard for John Kerry. I can remember when in the primary season some of the more fervent Anti-Dean people even questioned whether Dean would endorse, let alone campaign for Kerry and whether his supporters would vote for him.

[Bombtrack]

33. ok, don't take me seriously. That's fine

Dean isn't going to be the DNC chairman and that's a damn good thing.

He can be given power within the DNC without the formal chairmanship and becoming Daschles replacement as the third boogieman in RNC ads with Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton that they run in states that people who haven't seen the light of Dean would call "red".

[WI_DEM]

37. well, I'm not sure he won't be DNC Chair

He has many top people supporting him. I read too that the Minnesota County Chairs by 80% endorsed Dean. But you might be right--he may not get it. That isn't necessarily bad. It means he will focus even more on DFA which after only a year in operation is doing a very credible job. He may also run for president again.

[Cheswick2.0]

41. I hear Ca is also solidly behind him

could be rumor, I don't know.

[Cheswick2.0]

40. why is your strategy always about running scared?

Why is it always about what the republicans are going to do?

[CAcyclist]

55. Luckily for us, you don't get to make that decision.

Dean has a really good shot at being DNC chairman and of running in 2008 too.

No one can please everybody; not everyone here is going to like Dean - that's what good about the progressive side - we don't have to be in lockstep. Having said that, I enjoy the frantic yelping by Dean's opponents - it means he's touching a nerve.

[Cuban_Liberal]

68. Don't be too sure he won't be DNC chairman.

Time will tell...

[Walt Starr]

7. Dean, the only choice for DNC Chair

Anybody else would be as bad as Reid will be in the Senate.

[tk2kewl]

13. I got flamed by someone for slamming Reid yesterday

they said I had a vandetta.

All I want is strong leadership that speaks for the Progressive principles of our party. Dean is right on message.

[Hippo_Tron]

83. I'd rather Durbin as leader than Reid, BUT, did you see Reid on MTP?

I'd have to say that I was rather impressed with his performance. He certainly convinced me to give him a fair shot before I start criticizing him.

[Racenut20]

29. Not exactly Reid's fault.

Given a minority so small that his only weapon is filabuster, which the Senator from HMO is working overtime on changing the constitution to get rid of it.

The REAL problem he has, is we had another "damn Yankee" at the head of the ticket with a passive campaign crew (Shrum/Cahill) and a vice presidtial candidate that couldn't carry his own state. (The ghost of Al Gore???)The result being losing the Senate seat in Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Louisanna.... Because the Yankee Candidate nominated by 120,000 Iowians and a few Liberals in NH that has only 26% registered Democrats (thus a nice Republican crossover to help nominate MR. WEAK) had NO COATAILS.

I abided by the wish here after Nov 2 not to say I told you so. BUTTTTT I TOLD YOU SO !!!!!!!!!

[Hippo_Tron]

86. Nobody expected Kerry to take North Carolina

The fact is that North Carolina is pretty much a solid red state, remember, it's the state that sent Jesse Helms to the US Senate for decades. And Al Gore did carry his home state when he was running for Vice President. Ironically, he failed to do so when he was running for President. Bush did have long reaching coattails this time and unfortunately 5 safe senior democrats in red states did decide to retire this election. Louisiana could've been different if we hadn't underestimated Vitter. Kentucky could've been different if we had poured resources into Mongiardo's campaign sooner, but nobody really knew that he would have a chance.

[Wapsie B]

44. I agree.

If we don't have Dean or someone like him with the same fire in the belly all bets are off in '06 and maybe '08. We need a DNC Chair to point out in no uncertain terms what it means to be a Democrat, to clearly outline to Americans what we'll do in the future to help everyone, not just the 1%'ers. Someone not afraid to make the rwingers stroke out at the mere mention of his name.

I didn't hear a clear message go out to people as to why they shouldn't vote for Kerry, only that voting for chimp would be terrible. A DNC head should be able to sell the sizzle, even without a candidate like Bill. With effective leadership this election should not have been close. If we stay the course with more blandness like McCauliffe and Daschle we're just asking for trouble.

[InvisibleBallots]

10. Dean's 5 points

1. Raise the Minimum wage
2. Pass affordable health care
3. Balance the budget - no borrowing on the public dime
4. Create jobs
5. Cut the Corporations down to size.

Also, notice this part:

"On each of these issues, the majority of the American people are with Democrats not Republicans."

Notice - the majority of Americans agree with Democrats on these ECONOMIC issues - they do NOT agree with us on many "social" issues.

So, that means, if we want to win elections, we can either a) run on economic issues, where the majority of Americans agree with us, or b) in the next 4 years, convince the majority of Americans to support gay marriage, and removing "under God" from the pledge of allegience.

The choice is ours.

[janx]

16. The "social" issues are in fact religious issues that don't

belong in the realm of our government anyway.

[InvisibleBallots]

24. do the majority of Americans agree with you?

and if not, do you have time to convince them of the error of their ways in the next 2/4 years?

[Cheswick2.0]

27. people did NOT vote on social issues this year

that is a myth. I don't think the majority of american people vote for those issues you listed. You may be anti-gay anti-women and anti abortion....I have no idea. It would explain your desire to have the democratic party cave on those points. But in either case... that is simply not how people are voting.

[janx]

35. You have PM

[InvisibleBallots]

39. wow

"You may be anti-gay anti-women and anti abortion....I have no idea. It would explain your desire to have the democratic party cave on those points."

Yep, that's why Democrats keep losing. I said that we should focus on the economic issues that most of Americans agree with us on, and you basically imply that I'm anti-gay and anti-women.

Thankfully, Dean didn't say "If you have a Confederate flag on your pickup truck, you're a fundie redneck idiot and I hate you" - which is the kind of claptrap that fills DU everyday. Instead, Dean said he wanted to "Be the candidate for guys with confederate flags on their pickup trucks". Does Dean hate gays and women?

Dean gets it, most of DU doesn't.

[Cheswick2.0]

42. Nope

I didn't imply anything. I said that people who are those things are often looking for a toe hold to convince the rest of us we have to cave on those issues. I have no idea if you are one of those people.

You are right Dean does get it, but I wonder if you do. Dean never suggested we cave in on issues gays guns and God. What I am saying is only that we don't need to fear those issues either since most people do not vote on those issues.

[InvisibleBallots]

43. really?

"I didn't imply anything."

Oh sorry, I mistook this line for a pretty clear implication:

"You may be anti-gay anti-women and anti abortion....I have no idea. It would explain your desire to have the democratic party cave on those points."

And as for Gays, Guns, and God - Dean supports all three, doesn't he? :)

[Cheswick2.0]

49. Take whatever meaning you want

all I am saying is that you are mistaken if you think social issues are a big threat to us. That is not how people voted in this election regardless of the idiotic media spin.

[InvisibleBallots]

50. you don't need media spin to know this:

The Republicans control the House, the Senate, the Presidency, the Supreme Court, and the majority of state legislatures and Governors.

Obviously, the "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" DLC thing isn't working now is it?

[Hippo_Tron]

82. I actually read an article on the exit polling regarding "moral values"

While I don't agree with the analysis 100%, in that I believe that gay bashing and abortion was a significant factor in Bush's election, that 22% who said that they voted on "moral values" (80% of which voted for Bush) actually didn't know that they were saying that they based their decission on voting for gay marriage and abortion (which is what the pollsters were referring to by moral values). When another group was polled, those who answered that they voted based on "gay marriage and abortion" were about 50/50 Kerry and Bush.

I always like to use this case in point as to why the democrats don't need to be appealing to the Christian right. In 1992 when Bill Clinton was running for president, where did he stand on abortion and gay marriage? His stance was basically the same as John Kerry's, perhaps more progressive at the time because gays in the military was a new concept. Granted as Clinton became entrenched in warfare with the GOP WHILE president, he did sign things like DOMA and he became less progressive, although to give him props, he did veto the Partial Birth Act which almost or maybe even did get the votes in the House to override. Clinton not only won the swing states of Ohio, Florida, Missouri, Iowa, New Mexico, and Nevada, that Kerry was hoping to secure for a close electoral victory, Clinton also won 3 other southern states (Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennesee) 5 if you count Kentucky and West Virginia as southern. He also came, I believe, within two points in Indiana and Virginia.

No Clinton didn't win Kansas, Nebraska, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, and the Dakotas (although he did win Montana the first time). The fact is, that these states are where resides most of these voters who vote based on "moral values". The other fact is that all of these states combined have about 30 electoral votes, 30 electoral votes that democrats would have a much easier time picking up elsewhere. We don't need to win in regressive southern states like Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, and now Georgia. All we needed to win this election was 100,000 more votes in Ohio, probably less when you factor in Diebold, flyers telling black people that they weren't really registered to vote, etc. Had 9/11 not happened we would've EASILY gotten those 100,000 more votes due to our winning economic policies.

[Sparkly]

38. I disagree -- I do think most voters favor Democrats on social issues

To address the two issues you mention:
A majority of people are in favor of civil unions, and that's what the Democratic party's position has been -- it's what Kerry and Edwards espoused specifically, and eventually, even the Chimp *claimed* he supported them.

http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4496265/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-09-gaymarriage-usat_x.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_marp.htm

Removing "Under God" from the pledge of allegiance has never been a major party initiative, has it? If so I missed it. Nancy Pelosi even made a loud stink after somebody left the "under God" words out in a recitation.

[InvisibleBallots]

47. I'd say it's a lot more close

If we can win on social issues, it's barely. We can however, get a clean sweep if we concentrate on economic issues - like Clark's proposal to reinstate the progressive tax for instance.

[alaintex]

108. I would prefer a compromise on civil unions,

Any couple (gay or straight) that wanted the government to recognize their union should have to fill out a form, then you’re a contracted couple for the purposes of survivor benefits, etc.

But anyone who wants to be “married” can have a church wedding. The “sanctity of marriage” is maintained, but you still have to fill out the form for government recognition.

[alaintex]

107. Or c) modify our position on some social issues that are losers.

[Not_Giving_Up]

12. Dean! Dean! Dean!

Does anybody have the lyrics to the Deaniacs song? I saw this on "Diary of a Political Tourist", but can't remember the whole thing..."We're Howard Deaniacs" (to the tune of Animaniacs)

[XemaSab]

105. Alternate Dean song

From the halls of Vermont's capitol
To the California shores,
Hear the cry to take our country back
As we've never heard before!

To reclaim the people's government
We must sweep the White House clean,
When it's time to vote for president,
We will vote for Howard Dean!

(Written by Kurt Katz, Amtrak attendant and all around awesome fellow)

[Skidmore]

14. Go, Howard!!!

I'll support the doctor because he is so on target.

[Fleurs du Mal]

57. Not only that...

but unlike our former nominees he is regularly putting out statements and keeping the issues in the public eye as if the election were next week. Others seem to be happily ignoring the disarray and leadership vacuum in the party.

[kentuck]

15. Although Dean is the best "money raiser" in the Party, I doubt....

he will be chosen as chair of DNC. They may think that it's better to have the camel under the tent pissing out than on the outside pissing in and opt to choose him, but I believe they are too scared to choose him. If not, they will have to deal with the Doctor down the road, I think.

[datasuspect]

22. aug 2003

i heard him saying this at navy pier in chicago.

i just wish the two major political parties weren't so deeply in the pockets of corporate lobbyists.

[Skidmore]

32. Where else would the politicos and operatives turn

for employment after being in DC for long periods of time? You wouldn't want them to return to their districts and, like, actually....(gulp) work? Lobbying should be outlawed as a profession and politicians would actually be forced to interact with the individual citizen.

[Snivi Yllom]

46. What we could and should have had

Not the windsurfing gigilo whom we were told would win it.

I am very very excited at the prospects of Dean getting a second chance.

[Arkana]

96. "Windsurfing gigilo?"

Sure, kick the man while he's down.

[WMliberal]

52. he's saying what i've sorta said before

"we just execute a poor PR plan"

I don't think people like clinton and kennedy won not because people agreed with them on issues, but for their talent at getting people to like them. We don't need to trade ANY of our principles to win. We just need someone with the "it" factor. We don't "need" to run with a southerner on the ticket. Clinton would have won no matter where he came from. He is one of the most charismatic politicians in American history.

on edit: haha, i forgot to conclude. If Dean can see all this and thinks he has a plan to get our PR fixed, then he's got my vote. McAuliffe got us back on par financially (and little else). Now let's get Dean in to MAKE BETTER use of it.

[AuntiBush]

56. He's right about the corps

Republicans do have a long standing image of being for big business. Democrats have that in their favor.

[EFerrari]

59. I contributed to Dean but can't read him at the moment

The DLC helped the Repugs kill his campaign. Now he wants to lead the DLC?

And, not coming out about the obvious vote fraud ratchets his credibility down a notch or so for me.

Sorry but it looks like a toss up -- will the Dems swing to Dean or will he swing to their M.O. On the other hand, I've been reading all this disgusting stuff for more than a month, so my bs detector may be overloaded.

[janx]

63. You are confusing the DLC with the DNC. n/t

[EFerrari]

69. DNC vs DLC

Can Dean lead one w/out the other?

[BurtWorm]

70. Yes.

[EFerrari]

74. honestly hope you're right n/t

[BurtWorm]

77. The Democratic Party survived extremely well without the DLC

for all but about 15 years of its existence. The DLC is a separate entity, like Dean's DFA, but much, much more parasitic, entrenched and increasingly irrelavent. ;)

[Fitz_G]

61. An urgent message from the Alamo!!!

Greetings from Lawrence,KS--the Democratic Alamo of the heartland!
I was driving down I-70 in central Kansas a few weeks ago and decided to scan the am stations just to get a sense for how bad things have become. I found the following programs: 6 stations playing the same Rush Limbaugh show, a local right-wing show, a Christian station, a sports show, and a country music station. That's it. No balance exists out here.

Our first priority has got to be the leveling of the playing field for our message. Without that, the best platform or aggressive campaign will merely be spun into oblivion around here. Dems have no credibility and this is why.

Second, I agree that we need to get back to basics and with most stances of the Democratic party, but I don't hear anyone attacking issues that matter to people around here. Its not enough to tell people the economy is in bad shape and that jobs have been lost. We have to realize that a new generation has entered the workforce since we had control or had a real voice. That generation is by and large clueless as to the true nature of conflict between business and labor. Most still equate Marxist theory to political totalitarianism. We have to start from the beginning. I've found that the story of the Molly McGuires of the 19th century coal mines resonates well out here when I talk of it.

As Thomas Frank wrote in "What's the Matter with Kansas?" our farmers have been pushed off their lands and hired back as 21st century indentured servants on corporate farms. I find the rise of corporate farming and issues like Mad-Cow to be a curious relationship, yet no one seems to be tying those issues together. Wal-Mart has killed our towns. Our state almost sold our turnpike just to raise some quick cash this year. The people around here need to hear how their social beliefs are being manipulated for an economic agenda and how their anger only makes them more susceptible to it. It's an old-fashioned union busting of the Democratic Party that we're facing, but on the national level.

If we want to win Kansas, the heartland, and then America, we need to quit telling and start showing. Don't call it Orwellian, show the Orwellian tactics and marriage between the administration, media, and business community. People love a good conspiracy theory here and the truth is on our side. It has to be someone with red-stater credibility. Unfortunately, their hatred of Michael Moore drowns his message. And for the love of all things humble and right, please stop making fun of the red-staters and start educating them on the issues. These people are angry and the jokes only undermine my credibility when I try to discuss the morality of liberalism with them.

[ibegurpard]

62. Here's the problem

Anyone who makes the arguments you want and actually starts to resonate will be put into the right-wing spin machine and demonized like Michael Moore and thus will be just as hated. So, what's the solution?

[Fitz_G]

65. You forgot my first point

Repetitive messaging is a powerful thing indeed. Advertisers know it, the military knows it, and Republicans know it. Balance the media first, and the rest will begin to fall into place. Films are great, but we're not seeing them everyday for 3 hours. That's why Moore can't compete with Limbaugh. Personally, I think the republicans have peaked. They can't paint themselves as a victimized party anymore and Americans are naturally rebellious against power. That's how the right-wing message gained momentum in the first place--with whacked out conspiracies of left-wing control over our lives.

[Demrock6]

75. Agreed, right wing has to peak at sometime.

But more importanlty we need someone to steel vote from them. I think Dean is the man to do so. I think he would make a great Chairman.

[Fitz_G]

79. Its a populist movement

and we need a pitbull. Such a person will redfeine the left to have a spinal conotation. I think you're right. Dean is right for the time.

[alaintex]

110. My BS meter spiked when you said Rush was on 6 stations,

I don’t think that’s how radio works, I suspect it was just to make a point.

But I fought through that and I can’t disagree with anything else you said. Good post.

P.S. I’m originally from Iowa, so I understand the red state comments.

[Fitz_G]

118. NO BS

I wish I was inflating the number. am radio tends to travel pretty far, so I think I was in an area where I was picking up stations from multiple cities and towns. I promise you though, I counted six.

[BrklynLiberal]

71. Won't all these arguments become moot when everyone loses their jobs,

their mortgages are foreclosed, they have no healthcare, the dollar is worthless, their local libraries are closed, local firemen and policemen are laid off and their local taxes are raised? All the philosophical arguments won't mean a thing when compared to the reality of abject poverty and soup kitchens for everyone, that is just beyond the horizon.

[Fitz_G]

73. An unfortunate history

tells us that such a catastrophe might just be what it takes to wake people up... again.

[Fitz_G]

76. They've peaked

The repubs have peaked. They rose to power on a phony message of victim hood and conspiracies of left wing control over our lives. They have a great spin machine, but don't forget that Americans are naturally rebellious against power. Whether its the Declaration of Independence, the mythology of Jesse James, or Woodstock, once the paradigm of power has shifted, those in power begin to be abhorred. But I agree that bad times may be on the horizon. They had 2% over us. It won't take much.

[Lone Pawn]

78. Peaked? Not hardly.

In 2006 we have more weak seats up than they do. Sorry, but in the House and Senate, we're still on a downward trend.

[Fitz_G]

81. It may take some time

But as a social movement, they've peaked. Its odd. Here in Kansas, those who voted for Bush seem far more open to what I tell them now that the election is over. Its as though they just wanted to be heard. People are far more critical of the war now and quite skeptical of things like the dismissal of Powell. Meanwhile, Kerry supporters are still mad as hell. There will be some restructuring; things like alternative media will gain in popularity. You're right in that its not over, but they are king of the hill now and will have to defend it.

[janx]

80. Add to that the fact that the fundies are starting to cash in their

chips. The other right-wingers are increasingly alarmed.

[HockeyMom]

101. State Minimum Wage

The REPUBLICAN controlled New York State Legislature just overrode Patakai veto to increase the state minimum wage from $5.15 to $7.00 over two years. Peanuts, but better than NOTHING. Maybe there is a glimmer of hope among reasonable, MODERATE Republicans.

[alaintex]

117. 40% pay increase is more than peanuts where I come from

[Fitz_G]

119. If you consider

that the minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation and that a solid living wage would pay around 2 - 3 times the national $5.15 / hr, a "40% increase" does, indeed, appear to be a mere peanut.

[alaintex]

120. I agree with your rate of inflation statement

I don't know why it was never indexed to inflation?

[bluestateguy]

102. I want Dean for the job

But I would accept a compromise candidate, not a DLC candidate. Simon Rosenberg would be fine with me.

[Maguzzi]

103. Just forget it, Stan.

The whole system is rigged and H Dean is rigged out of it. Fake votes
diverted votes, evaporated votes. Kerry and Bush are both Bonesmen.
When are we going to hear about that. They both just smirk it off.
Lets hear what that is about. I should have voted nader. Kerry will never get that platform to run on again. And this is what
u get for copying Iowa caucus hillbillies. Morons... You are a republican nation until they decide to let u win one, when the sewer
gets so nasty it bubbles over and they want out. Dont u ghet it??

[VTHoosierPatriot]

115. It does make you wonder.

I don't know how Kerry could have pulled Iowa "out of no where." Teresa Heinz's deceased husband's father was also a prominent bonesman. I try not to read into things to closely, but looking at the odds of it all being coincidence, it stinks.

[elshiva]

116. Dean Dean Dean

Dean is the man with the plan that the chicks all dig.;) ;-)

[Patriot Acts]

121. Dean's our guy!!

Dean would be taking office soon if Kerry wasent in the way... I still can't figure out why he wasen't the 2004 nominee.