Another gun tragedy. Dad kills son in custody dispute: San Diego

[maveric]

http://www.kfmb.com/
I heard this on the TV news at work tonight and it tore me up.
San Diego:
(09-04-2003) - A father said to be troubled over custody and money problems allegedly shot his teenage son to death Thursday as the high school freshman's cross country team ran past a popular Ocean Beach market, police said.

<snip>

The victim, believed to be a 14-year-old Point Loma High School student, was shot three times in the head in front of the People's Organic Food Cooperative at about 3 p.m., said Lt. Mike Hurley of the San Diego Police Department.

According to broadcast reports, the suspect was in a custody dispute and faced financial problems, and his son thought he had heard his father call out to him several minutes before the shooting.

This is terrible and so sad. It breaks my heart.
Would this have happened if this guy didnt have access to a gun?
Let ask Charlton Heston about this one.:cry:

[Systematic Chaos]

1. No more custody OR money problems for that piece of trash!

I think I'm going to be sick now....

[Terwilliger]

2. no matter what other method this man may have used to kill his son

the god damned gun made it quick and easy

GET THE FUCKING GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF PEOPLE. It's like nukes...you have to handle it responsibly. My fucking government won't let me smoke pot, but this asshole gets a gun??? Did he need one? Should he have had one?

[KG]

7. now remember ter, guns don't, uh, kill, people, uh....

oh, fuck it. lets' stop kidding ourselves. hand gun deaths are an ugly blight on US culture.

talk about conciets. excercising ones 'right' to gun ownship over the welfare of society in general is the ultimate.

[TAH6988]

8. Yep, that gun

went out and shot that boy all by itself. I suggest we lock up all the guns.

[Terwilliger]

24. that gun made it easy for that psycho to kill his kid

trigger pull, hammer fall, powder explodes, projectile flies...


If he had a knife, his son probably wouldn't be dead.

[TAH6988]

52. And if my Aunt had

a...

The father killed his son, the gun didn't. Let's put the balme where it really lies.

[slackmaster]

15. Would youse feel better if he'd pushed the boy out of a window?

...in a tall building?

If the guy had strangled the kid you wouldn't even have heard about it.

My fucking government won't let me smoke pot,...

But I suspect and would even bet money that you do so anyway.

Please don't respond to that unless you feel comfortable providing that information.

[Terwilliger]

25. You glossed over what I said in my post

but thats not surprising coming from you :hi:

[slackmaster]

37. I'll be happy to address it now

GET THE FUCKING GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF PEOPLE.

Impractical, unworkable, and politically unwise to espouse such a policy. Possibly unconstitutional. People in most states value the right to keep and bear arms, so the constitutional amendment required to implement your idea would not be feasible.

[Terwilliger]

47. I value the 4th, 9th, and 10th amendments

but that doesnt stop them from invading my space and telling me I cant smoke a harmless herb

By the way...possibly unconstitutional? So you're saying guns as a right is NOT guaranteed in the Constitution?

[slackmaster]

50. I don't pick and choose which rights to value

I value them all.

By the way...possibly unconstitutional? So you're saying guns as a right is NOT guaranteed in the Constitution?

No, I mean to say that it's debatable and often debated precisely what the right to keep and bear arms as protected by the 2A means. It certainly was not intended to allow someone to murder his son in cold blood.

Just like you believe your right to grow, keep, and smoke cannabis has been infringed (and I agree with you on that BTW), my right to keep and bear arms has been infringed.

[Terwilliger]

56. No you do not...thats crap

you value your rights...especially those rights you perceive to be of great interest to you

You have the right to buy a gun, I dont have the right to buy weed. Your issue kills people...mine doesn't.

Let's remember what's what.

[slackmaster]

59. Yes you DO have a right to buy weed, my friend!

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" - Words upon which the nation was founded.

Your right to buy weed been INFRINGED just like my right to buy certain kinds of firearms that would go nicely in my gun collection.

Of course if you live in California or Arizona and can get a doctor to attest to your medical "need" for weed you are free to buy it. Unless the feds find out.

"Your issue kills people"

Horsecrap.

[Clark Can WIN]

58. I don't understand this table/map

Here's my position, anyhow, it is also my constitutional right to free speech but society has rightly deemed that I should not be allowed to post websites advocating the sexual torture and killing of children. Soeciety has a right to protect itself from the deranged and dangerous among them.

We should of course be allowed to keep and bear arms but ONLY on a provisional licence basis. Kind of like a drivers licence. Prove that you are a responsible citizen and knowledgable of safety, maintenance and handling procedures. Come back and take a little test every 5 years or so to make sure all your potatoes are still ing the sack. This won't cure everything but NOTHING will cure everything. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't continue to try new measures to keep more of the public, including those of us who own firearms, safe.

[slackmaster]

61. Sorry, I should have explained

It shows the progression of states away from laws that require some kind of police or administrative permission for a law-abiding adult to obtain a concealed weapons permit, toward a more equitable system (known as "shall-issue" or "right to carry - RTC) under which anyone who meets a set of objective criteria can get a permit. No explanation of reason is required; people judge for themselves whether or not they need the permit.

Most states that issue permits require training, demonstration of an understanding of the laws concerning use of deadly force, fees, and shooting tests. Permits typically need to be renewed every 1 to 3 years, and they become void if a person gets convicted of a felony, etc.

[Clark Can WIN]

Makes sense to me

I don't like guns much myself (even though I have one, my dad's WWII sidearm) but proper and thoughtful regulation is the only sensible approach imho.

Thanks for the info.

[TLM]

19. So if he ran the kid down with his car...

would you be saying we need to get cars out of the hands of people?


"GET THE FUCKING GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF PEOPLE."

"Democrats want to take your guns away."

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

39. Ease up on the caffeine, Terwilliger

Peraonal attacks e.g. name-calling are not appropriate in these forums.

[Terwilliger]

57. you're absolutely right

now, when are you leaving?

[Twillig]

3. What the fuck is so bad about suicide?

Goddamit just blow your brains out. All your troubles are over. Read some David Hume. It's ok.

Kill yourself instead of killing the ones you supposedly love.

Fucking piece of shit.

[maveric]

4. And this guy is still holed up in some apt. building with SWAT

surrounding him. He'll probably kill himself, whichsomething he should have done before taking the life of his 14 yr old son.

Guns kill people folks. Without one that kid would still be alive.
Sickening!

[TLM]

20. He did... he blew his brains out this morning.

[DoNotRefill]

5. How sad....

My heart goes out to the kid's mom.

California has some of the toughest gun control laws in the country in place, yet this guy still got one. I wonder if he got it legally...

[REP]

6. Anothe Car Tragedy: Three Children Die When Car is Rolled Into Lake

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/09/04/children.drown.ap/index.html

Man charged with DUI in drowning of children

CLINTON, Illinois (AP) -- A man who was behind the wheel when a car went into a lake, killing three children strapped inside, has been charged with driving under the influence of drugs, authorities said.

Maurice Lagrone Jr., 28, also is charged with driving with a suspended license, DeWitt County State's Attorney Jerry Johnson said.

Lagrone and his girlfriend, Amanda Hamm, 28, escaped the car after it went off a boat ramp Tuesday evening, but Hamm's three children were trapped inside, DeWitt County Sheriff Roger Massey said.

This is so terrible and so sad. It breaks my heart.
Would this have happened if this guy didn't have access to a car?

Get a grip, people. The answer in these cases is BIRTH control, not gun control. The guy needed to pass a test to buy a gun in California or drive in Illinois, but any piece of shit can have children. Unfortunately, licenses to breed is an offensive idea, but something must be done to get it through peoples' heads that parenting is not an entitlement; children are not a right; and children are not property.

[slackmaster]

16. no matter what other method this man may have used to kill those kids

the god damned car made it quick and easy

GET THE FUCKING CARS OUT OF THE HANDS OF PEOPLE. It's like nukes...you have to handle it responsibly. My fucking government won't let me smoke pot, but this asshole gets a car??? Did he need one? Should he have had one?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

42. A car or knife would work just fine

Calm down Terwilliger. Nobody is going to shoot you here on the message board.

[maveric]

9. After 10 hours of SWAT activity this guy killed himself.

Had he just done that in the first place this kid would be in school today getting ready for his cross country meet.

Had he not had access to a gun this kid would be in school today getting ready for his cross country meet.

:cry:

But its OK for ANYBOBY to have a gun. It was his RIGHT.

[TLM]

22. How do you know that?

"Had he not had access to a gun this kid would be in school today getting ready for his cross country meet."


Unless he ran the kid down with his car, beat him to death with a baseball bat, stabbed him, strangled him, etc.

[Terwilliger]

28. thats right...so when the barbarians come to your gate

I want you to be using a car, baseball bat, and nail file as your defense weapons.

[Character Assassin]

34. Wonderful use of a non-sequitor

I want you to be using a car, baseball bat, and nail file as your defense weapons.

No one except you has mentioned 'barbarians at the gate'. Do let's try and remain at least cosmetically pertinent, hmmmm?

[Terwilliger]

36. umm...isnt that what TLM said were....ohhhhhhhhhh

I see...there's a difference bertween protecting yourself and murder. Well, of course!

End the problems society has...no need for any guns.

So, what's the priority? Fixing society, or making sure you have a gun while we wait for it to be fixed? (For you CA, that's a rhetorical question used for the purposes of demonstrating my point)

[Character Assassin]

41. Ah, the quaint simplicity behind either/or questions

So, what's the priority? Fixing society, or making sure you have a gun while we wait for it to be fixed? (For you CA, that's a rhetorical question used for the purposes of demonstrating my point)

Bad choice for a rhetorical question, as the world, and our choices, are not as truncated as you might wish they were.

[Terwilliger]

54. Yes I know

If you don't have a gun you wont be safe

[Character Assassin]

62. Not in the least.

But the idea of you engaging in anything remotely resembling intelligent discourse is the equivalent a sinking ship firing on the rescuers, so I'll allow you your delusions.

[slackmaster]

43. Now that's an original poorly thought-out argument

End the problems society has...no need for any guns.

But if pressed for specifics you'll probably start making exceptions for government employees.

[Terwilliger]

55. thanks again, slack!

You people keep proving my point.

[slackmaster]

64. What point?

[DoNotRefill]

70. So do the barbarians....

I'd rather have an Uzi.

[ronnykmarshall]

10. ARRRGGGHHHH!

This just frys my ass. Not only did the bastard kill his son, there are so many others that are victims in this.

The boy's mother and those poor kids that have live with seeing their friend shot to death.

That selfish bastard took the easy way out by killing himself.

[salin]

11. The school sounds familiar....

please tell me that this is NOT the school which had a student shooting a few years back. This would be traumatic anywhere - but would be doubly so if it were the same school. :(

In any event - Such a tragic story.

[maveric]

12. That was Santana High in neighboring Santee.

Point Loma High is in an upper middle class area near the Ocean Beach area. My ex went to school there as did Baseball pitcher David Wells and SF 49ers receiver JJ Stokes.

[gratuitous]

13. It's pretty obvious where the problem was . . .

If the kid had been able to return fire, maybe he would've taken dad out. But no, the bleeding hearts tell us that guns in school are bad, athletes shouldn't be packing while competing, and other such nonsense.

By golly America, wake up! We won't be safe and secure in our homes, persons or papers until every man jack of us is armed to the teeth! Or at least me.

[slackmaster]

17. Maybe so

But guns are not allowed in OB People's Food. I've shopped there many times.

[TSElliott]

14. Guns are only a small factor in the entire issue

the real problem is violence. If you look at the murder rate in America 7.0 per 100,000 and eliminate murders committed with firearms 3.8 per 1000,000 our murder rate is still 3.2 per 100,000, which is higher than most other countries. Now we can blame guns for over half the murders in our country but we still have a serious issue here. Our murder rate without guns is still 3 times higher than Japan (1.0 per 100,000) and twice as high as England (1.35 per 100,000).

Unfortunately banning guns is not going to resolve the issue, it may reduce the amount of spontaneous passion murders but it's not going to make Americans less violent.

[TLM]

18. So am I right in assuming you think this wouldn't be a tragedy

if the guy had stabed his son or run him down with his car?


Why is the gun the villian, and not the asshole who killed his kid?

[slackmaster]

21. I think the tendency is to blame it on "access" to guns

As if there was a realistic way to control that.

There has to be more to this story. I want to know if the guy had a domestic violence restraining order against him or if he had a criminal background, either of which would make him ineligible to possess a firearm.

And there is no "gun show loophole" in California. All transfers of firearms require a background check and a 10-day wait.

[slackmaster]

23. The guy was wacked out enough to murder his OWN SON!

He plotted to "punish" his estranged or ex-wife by killing their son. He researched where and when he could ambush the boy. Probably took the day off his job. Planned it all ahead of time. This was NOT a case of Evil Gun Rays turning a normal mild-mannered divorced man into a raging assassin of children.

And some people seem to think lack of "access to a gun" would have been enough of an inconvenience to stop him from carrying out his evil plan. That's ridiculous.

[Terwilliger]

30. Could he kill his kid so easily from far away?

Could any attempt without a gun have tipped his son to his psychotic? OOPS! He didn't get the chance...THE FUCKING GUN KILLED HIM BEFORE HE KNEW WHAT WAS HAPPENING

You people try to pass yourselves off as intelligent :eyes:

[slackmaster]

40. A knife would have served just as well

It happens every day. Did it ever occur to you that in the absence of a gun the killer might have engineered his attack differently?

You people try to pass yourselves off as intelligent

Another personal attack. How sad that you are unable to discuss this particular topic with your usual calm demeanor and clear head.

[Fescue4u]

29. How Moronic...

Yea, it was the guns fault!

(rolling eyes)

I think some people love these tragic events became it proves their stalinish gun control zealotry "correct"

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fescue4u]

33. Never.

Hmm, Speak of the devil and he appears.

Anyway, the only gene pool that needs cleaning up is the criminal one and the people are afraid of inanimate objects.

[Terwilliger]

38. inanimate objects whose sole purpose is to tear up human flesh

WELL! I guess a kitchen knife could rip apart flesh too, right? :eyes:

[Fescue4u]

44. wrong.

If thats the only purpose, all of my guns are broken.

Only about 1 in 20,000 guns are used to kill..and thats ALL kills, including those done by military and police. The other 19,999 are used to put holes in paper, or fill a safe.

If a guns only purpose is to kill, it is EXTREMELY INEFFECTIVE as it rarely does it.

On the other hand, a kitchen knives purpose is to cut food, and proably 99% of them used to do exactly that.

Nonethless, a kitchen knife as about as many uses as a gun, both legitimate and otherwise.

[Terwilliger]

46. I see

so what is the purpose behind a gun? What is it designed to do then?

[Fescue4u]

65. To scare you.

Yes you personally.

There were designed to make you piss your pants everytime you see one.

[maveric]

48. I'm willing to bet that the person that bought that gun didnt buy it for

target practice. Protection? Perhaps. But most gun owners that I know own them to intimidate people, make themselves feel powerful and to piss off liberals.
I know many gun owners on all 3 coasts and I dont know anyone that shoots targets for sport.

As Ronnie Van Zandt said: "Handguns are a made for killin
aint no good for nuthin else"

[slackmaster]

63. I'm willing to bet that he wasn't legally in possession of it

n/t

[Fescue4u]

66. He had a restraining order against him.

Hence it was illegal for him to pick it up, let alone own it.

But then again, the law against Murder didnt stop him, so why should one of 100,000 laws against guns stop him?

[slackmaster]

69. And that is almost always the case with unlawful shootings

Most people who commit them are breaking the law by even owning a gun.

California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, but without rigorous enforcement they do very little good. We have no "gun show loophole" but buying a gun on the black market is as easy as going downtown and chatting up the first pimp, hooker, or drug dealer you meet. It's no harder than scoring heroin, and less of a hassle (and cheaper) than obtaining one legally.

Anyone willing to commit a murder is not going to be bothered even slightly by a law making it illegal for him to have a gun. Restraining orders often backfire by pissing off the person who is restrained. They're OK for garden-variety stalkers and harassers but useless against killers.

Thanks for the info Fescue4u. It's not at all surprising that he had an RO. I'd wager that there was some domestic violence involved in the recent past.

[Character Assassin]

49. You wish violence on fellow DUer's? How predictable...

Beats actually thinking, I guess. Wouldn't want you to get uncomfortable.

[Terwilliger]

53. hahahah...you're criticizing me on my lack of thinking? that's rich

I've just come to realize that you people believe in guns like the god-pods believe in their shit...I won't do much convincing anyway, but I need to make you look foolish in front of others

[Character Assassin]

60. You have a lot of work to do

hahahah...you're criticizing me on my lack of thinking? that's rich

Yes, I am criticizing you for your lack of thinking, and your obvious delight in that fact.

I've just come to realize that you people believe in guns like the god-pods believe in their shit...I won't do much convincing anyway, but I need to make you look foolish in front of others.

You've come to realize something that I've never stated and don't adhere to. How typical.

If you're trying to make someone look foolish, it's always best not to start off with yourself, Champ.

[Fescue4u]

67. heheh

yeah....you are doing a good job of making -somebody- look foolish.

[symbolman]

32. It's the courts fault people

I know about this first hand, I'm not condoning a thing that happened but let me tell you that the Family Courts are all about screwing fathers to the wall and even jailing them on the thinnest of pretenses (I'm looking at a year in a an ALabama Jail for a phony faked by me ex email and a recording that isn't even considered evidence.)..

The courts are making people crazy over custody issues.. it's unconstitutional and no one cares til it happens to them..

My heart goes out to everyone in this situation, but I suspect there's a bitch mother involved in this who will walk away clean but may be the one who created this situation..

that an another Judge who screws non custodial parents.

[Fescue4u]

35. It would have been much better if he had murdered his

son by a 6 inch knife.

That way anti-gun ninnys could feel better that his death was not quick, but slow and painful and did not entail the use of a gun.

[Porcupine]

51. Agreed, The Courts are allowed to destroy families, particularly men.....

without conscience, evidence or consequence. What you can note in these cases is that men who were previously law abiding people are driven to suicidal actions.

The judges and lawyers who destroy mens lives and turn them into suicidal time bombs simply repeat the cycle the next day.

In my case I was made homeless by court order and denied access to my property and my children. I had committed no crime up to that point; I didn't even have a traffic ticket on my record. I am now a felon because I asked to see my children. If I so much as send my kids a birthday card they will put me back in jail.

As long as you keep blaming the men you will keep burying families. Men cannot always walk away from their children. There is a HUGE biological imperitave to stay near them.

[neuvocat]

45. Oh my God!

I've shopped at that market before. I have friends who own the dry cleaners across the street.

[Fescue4u]

68. Horrible and tragic, yet gun control zealots

love these events to prove their "superior" thinking.

(edit for spelling)

[slackmaster]

71. More information about the shooter's access to guns

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20030906-9999_1n6shooting.html

Bill Hoffine had "access to guns" simply because he owned four of them - three handguns and a shotgun - but it's nobody's job to ensure that people who become the subject of restraining orders actually comply with the requirement to not have one in one's possession. The courts indisputably knew about the weapons because the murdered boy's mother had mentioned them in the written statements she made in order to obtain a temporary restraining order against Hoffine almost a month before the shooting. Also, California has had de facto registration of every handgun legally purchased in or imported to the state since 1968. That information (as well as the restraining order) comes up on the mobile computers in police cars whenever they make contact with someone who owns a handgun or registered assault weapon. There is no doubt that the courts and law enforcement had access to knowledge that Hoffine had guns. They just didn't do anything about it.

The problem is that although both state and federal law prohibit a person under such a restraining order from having a gun (the document orders the restrainee to surrender them to police or sell them immediately), there is no mechanism to follow up and make sure the person actually does so. By the time such a person gets caught a violent crime has often already occurred. Hoffine had access to guns because he elected to disregard that part of the court order.

To answer maveric's question in the original post:

Would this have happened if this guy didnt have access to a gun?

Good question for which there will never be a meaningful answer. He might have still committed the crime using a different weapon. But the facts show that he did not have LEGAL access to a gun. All the laws to prevent him from having one are in place, but there are not enough cops and procedures are not in place to truly enforce it. Considering that both the victim and his mother had expressed concern that Hoffine would do something terrible, it seems that of all people known to have guns it should have been a priority to make sure he got rid of his.