can i trust this sorce?

[Neoma]

http://www.hillnews.com/book_reviews/100704.aspx

Some freep posted it. how do i prove it wrong (or is it true?)
I did not read it btw

[unblock]

1. i'm sure you could smear england just as easily as france.

they fought us on our own soil, TWICE. they burned the white house, fer cryin' out loud!

[Catch22Dem]

2. Looks like a hack opinion piece to me

Nothing more.

[DrWeird]

3. Funny that they quote Charles Pickering.

nt

[Neoma]

4. Well Can i check it by Factcheck.com,or is it .org?

[Calvinist Basset]

5. What a load of crap

I majored in French language and culture in college, and lived in France for a while. The whole time, I encountered nothing but decent French people. Of course, if there were problems, I perceived it often on the part of crass, pushy Americans who treated "foreigners" like dirty servants.

The stuff this book lays out is pure bullsh*t. Okay, so the French have a less-than-perfect record of international relations. Gee, do we have no guilt in this arena?

Franco-U.S. relations are not unique. We've been at odds with Great Britain, Italy, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Mexico, the Philippines, etc., etc. Sure, sometimes the fault could be laid at the feet of the other nations. But we share in the culpability--like backing out of agreements and such. Remember, we told Saddam Hussein it was "okay" to invade Kuwait--then we sent troops in to fight.

In order to refute the book, take the time to look at what *we* did to break trust and act with duplicity in history. It will shoot the thesis of the book full of holes.

[pleiku52cab]

6. Just mention the name De Grasse and the year 1781

It was his FRENCH fleet who defeated the British (at that time not a very good partner of the coalition of the willing) in the waters off Yorktown. Lord Cornwallis lost his reinforcements and supplies thus forcing his surrender and ending the Revolutionary war. It was also the BRITISH we went to war against in 1812 over firing on our ships and impressing our sailors into their service. We owe a great debt to the French which we helped repay in a few small world wars at a later date. The FRENCH were our first allies and, after we get rid of awol, our relations will assuredly return to normal.

[On the Road]

7. I Don't Doubt the Historical Facts

as much as the characterization.

The article gives the distinct impression that the author's purpose is not primarily to discuss American/French relations, but to ridicule and slander France. For example: "The French cannot yet accept that they are a people “whose greatest general was a foreigner, whose greatest warrior was a teenage girl, and whose last great military victory came on the plains of Wagram in 1809.”

I doubt many people would characterize France the same way the author does if they knew the history and didn't have an axe to grind. Many readers will not be familiar enough with history to understand that Dufour's criticisms of France could have been aimed just as easily at the US or other countries:

... the debacle of the Treaty of Versailles as engineered by French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau... Yes, and according to Sigmund Freud and his coauthor Wm Bullitt from the US State Department, Woodrow Wilson's handling of the treaty was a complete fiasco beginning with paranoid episodes and ending in a nervous breakdown.

...many of the century’s greatest murderers, Ho Chi Minh and Pol Pot chief among them, studied in Paris. Yes, and how many 20th century dictators not only studied in the US, but were supported by the US as dictators and their repressions encouraged?

...an Indian massacre of British settlers at Fort Edward in upstate New York in 1757. ...the French, who were allied with the Indians, “did nothing to stop the bloodbath.” Yes, but the French didn't do it themselves -- they just didn't stop their allies. On the other hand, Americans, British, and Spaniards were all implicated in massacres that were much, much greater.

After the war, the United States was footing 80 percent of France’s expenses in Vietnam, a colony that the French were incapable of holding and that would soon become our problem. Yes, and as it turned out the US was not being generous to France -- we wanted control of Vietnam ourselves. And of course, the US ultimately couldn't control Vietnam either, but were infinitely more barbarous in the attempt.

...whose last great military victory came on the plains of Wagram in 1809. That statement ignores WWI, the Free French during WWII, and all of French conquests (such as North Africa) after 1809.

Actually, the more I read the article, the more it sounds like a complete hack job. Notice how most of the above criticisms depend on innuendo and association more than actual French actions.

[bemildred]

8. The HIll is sometimes interesting.

The book is lightweight crap.
There is no enmity between the US and France.
However, the higher reaches of the US Government hate
Chirac, and find it convenient to use France as a scapegoat.

[pnorman]

9. Federalist President John Adam,

did everything in his power to precipitate hostilitries with France, and tilt towards England. It was largely a "political" thing then, with revolutionary France being a close analog of commie subverters and terrorists. The Aliem & Sedition laws as well as various jingoistic public relations campaigns, bear an eerie resemblance to current affairs.

Adams's vice President was Thomas Jefferson, and here's what he wrote to a friend who thought that seceding from the Federal union was the best thing to do: "... A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to it's true principles. It is true that in the mean time we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war & long oppressions of enormous public debt. But who can say what would be the evils of a scission, and when & where they would end? Better keep together as we are, hawl off from Europe as soon as we can, & from all attachments to any portions of it. And if we feel their power just sufficiently to hoop us together, it will be the happiest situation in which we can exist. If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, & then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are the stake. Better luck, therefore, to us all; and health, happiness, & friendly salutations to yourself."
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl122.htm

Here's an excellent book which covers that era; "American Aurora : A Democratic-Republican Returns : The Suppressed History of Our Nation's Beginnings and the Heroic Newspaper That Tried to Report It". Check it out at Amazon and elsewhere. That was the name of a newspaper that Benjmin Franklin had founded, and the book was largely excerpts from that paper, as well as other partisan journals of that time.

pnorman

[On the Road]

10. Oh, I Forgot About the John Adams Thing

Using quotes from that period of time without noting the circumstances is not responsible history.