"They can't throw us all in jail"

[donsu]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20041206-1325-ca-iraq-sailorsprotest.html


San Diego-based sailor refuses deployment in protest of war


A Navy petty officer opposed to the war in Iraq refused to board his ship Monday as sailors and Marines deployed for the Persian Gulf.

-snip-

"I don't want to be a part of a ship that's taking 3,000 Marines over there, knowing a hundred or more of them won't come back," he said. "I can't sleep at night knowing that's what I do for a living."

-snip-

He said he was young and naive when he joined the Navy and "never imagined, in a million years, we would go to war with somebody who had done nothing to us."

-snip-

Military officials did not immediately comment on his actions. He could face a court-martial, a dishonorable discharge and possible time in a military jail.

He said he hopes his protest might inspire other sailors, soldiers and Marines to refuse to take part in the war.

"I know other people are feeling the same way I am, and I'm hoping more people will stand up," he said. "They can't throw us all in jail."
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a gold star

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[H2O Man]

3. You do it.

It's your duty. Leave the kid with a conscience alone.

[tk2kewl]

11. You tell him!

I see that shadowgrouse is 49 years old. He might even have a couple of sons or daughters he could send over there too.

[H2O Man]

16. That's right!

People who voted for Bush need to either scrape up the balls to fight this war they want so bad, or at least have their kids join the front lines.

[Crunchy Frog]

52. He's ageing extremely rapidly.

He was 59 just now, then when I checked again, he was already 61.

Now that's what I call impressive!

[DrWeird]

59. It runs in his family.

His great-grandfather fought the nazis.

[Name removed]

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[CatWoman]

94. heh

I'll take it with mushrooms and pepperoni.

I understand you'll pay the check.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

101. So explain how your age went backwards.

From 49 to 37 then disappeared from your profile.

[CatWoman]

104. dontcha know, Dr. W?

FUZZY MATH!!!!!

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

112. Oooo.

Snap!

[CatWoman]

130. shut up

then I may consider.....

[DrWeird]

110. Ah, a former Enron executive.

I see.

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[Mandate My Ass]

151. *snort*

ya never know.

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[H2O Man]

148. messing with Catwomen:

baaad choice. bad.

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[DrWeird]

122. Republicans don't really support the military.

If they did, we wouldn't be in Iraq.

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[H2O Man]

63. oh, no.

You just hurt my feelings.

[Bridget Burke]

99. If you've done more than that "coward"....

Where can we read about it?

He is in the news because of his conscience. He's not avoiding personal danger--I haven't heard of many Navy casualties in this war.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

41. No, see cowardice...

is supporting the war from behind a computer, while sending other people to fight and die for your lies, while the whole time lying about having been enlisted, and having been caught with that lie but still refusing to admit it.

I mean, that's the very soul of cowardice.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

49. Ooo, now you're fighting in the war.

So where are you stationed?

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[DrWeird]

56. Oh, I see. You're fighting the war online.

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[H2O Man]

70. Nope.

Not true. We look at who comes on to try to create conflicts. When someone comes on to attack an American soldier, changes their information, and then says they are a soldier, it draws the obvious conclusion. But entertain us! Tell us why you decided to come on DU and attack the morals of an American soldier?

[Name removed]

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[H2O Man]

Why do republicans

think it is okay to insult the military? You should be ashamed of yourself. That kid is more moral than you will ever be.

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[H2O Man]

102. You are the issue

You insulted a military man. Why do you hate America?

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[H2O Man]

123. You insulted the military

when you insult a military man for making a decision that is allowed by the military. Why do you hate America?

[Name removed]

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[H2O Man]

154. Wrong.

Please, we will all feel better if you promise to go to church and beg forgiveness for your lies and for hating America. Be a good republican now, and do what you are told.

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[H2O Man]

183. I'm ashamed of you.

Even Sean Hannity wouldn't like your attacks on the flag.

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[CatWoman]

206. Did you ever find an issue you couldn't be a hypocrite about

those good old "Republican family values".

Tell everyone else how to live your lives, while raping your children in their beds.

[Name removed]

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[H2O Man]

209. No, it's you.

If you had any concern with the military, you'd focus attention on Rumsfeld's nasty comments about why the administration will not provide our troops with the equipment they need. If you supported the military, you would point out that the troops have been there for far, far longer than it takes to make the equipment and send it over. If you supported the troops, you'd point out that the money needed to do this is lining the accounts of Halliburton. Instead you choose to come on DU to insult some kid who is struggling with his conscience. That kid is not the problem. Rumsfeld is.

[CatWoman]

211. "original", ain't he?

poor fucker..............

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[H2O Man]

234. Nope.

You parrot your hero, Sean Hannity. Many of us have chipped in to help buy the vests etc that Rumsfeld has felt are unnecessary. As a person with family and friends in the service in Iraq and Afghanistan, I resent when republicans like you are satisfied with the lies of the Rumsfelds of the world. I resent those who are not concerned with the safety of our troops. I count you as being one of those people.

[Name removed]

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[H2O Man]

245. You started

with a personal attack on a military man. I resent republicans who sneak on DU to start conflicts, especially those who sink to your level of attacking a kid who is having a crisis of conscience.

I note you are able to repeat Sean Hannity's excuse for Rumseld, word for word. But you can't help but attack a kid who is trying to figure out what he believes. So don't bring your weak shit about personal attacks to me.

Why are you on DU? What gain do you find in insulting a military man on this forum?

[Name removed]

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[H2O Man]

256. I assume that

people of conscience offend you. If you are really upset, join the military.

[Name removed]

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[H2O Man]

269. Nope.

If you were in the military, you wouldn't have to change your cover story, and you wouldn't have hours to spend on DU this afternoon insulting some kid who is having a crisis of conscience about his military service. I think that you are confused by your hero, who thinks that his saying he served equals actually serving.

[rppper]

283. last i read...via the gao...haliburton was making plenty

20 or 30 million in overcharges i seem to have read someplace....

[rppper]

281. OOOHHHH!!!!.....here come the talking points..lol...

never burned a flag before, but i did participate in morning colors on the arizona once.....

[CatWoman]

73. I just read thru this thread

you're a liar, and not a very convincing one at that.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

157. Post #1.

You might as well be wearing a sign that says "Hi, I'm a fascist."

[Name removed]

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[CatWoman]

169. Actually, he's more like the pimple on Rush's ass

and he keeps relying on it to keep him out of harm's way.

But no one else is exempt.

Cause he's "special".

That's what we used to call mentally-challenged people.

[DrWeird]

175. Jesus was a fascist?

Gandhi and Martin Luther King too?

Wow. What kind of crack are you smoking?

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[DrWeird]

185. Not at all. Using your logic...

you would have been the one hammering in the nails.

[Mandate My Ass]

193. LOL, he doesn't get it

That is priceless! :toast:

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[H2O Man]

189. Why do you hate

America? What about the Constitution has you so upset that you would come on here and attack this country?

[intheflow]

64. Yours it not to judge any person.

That's for God alone. You call a Marine a coward while hiding behind an anonymous screen name. How honorable is that?

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[H2O Man]

80. He is in the military.

We are patriotic on DU. We don't like when republicans come on here and insult our military.

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[H2O Man]

88. Yep.

I think that most republicans are patriotic, but some who insdult the military reflect poorly on the rest.

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[H2O Man]

98. Maybe that

is the problem. Maybe you came on to disrupt because you resent DU. I'll tell you, the only people I've seen on DU who insult and disrespect the military are guys like you, who come on to disrupt. I think that's low. No matter what you as a republican and I as a democrat disagree with, we should have a common respect for the military. Now you go to church and pray for forgiveness for your many sins today.

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[H2O Man]

131. You insulted a military man

for doing that which the military allows. And you attempt to cover up you lack of patriotism with nonsense. You will not earn your Sean Hannity badge this way.

[Democracy Died 2004]

139. Fuck you.

I served in the military and I KNOW I HAVE THE RIGHT to bad mouth the military. Go back to the freeper hole you came out of.

[CatWoman]

146. heh

now I've got it!!!

he's looking for someone to blow so that he can score another vial of crack.

going about it the wrong way, tho :shrug:

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[H2O Man]

163. We will pray for you .....

because you are a pathological liar and you have done something worse than burning the flag: you insult a military man for an act of conscience. Santa Claus is not going to be happy with you.

[CatWoman]

180. oh, cut him some slack

the crack pipe is to blame - he can't help himself.

[Democracy Died 2004]

194. Republican my left nut!

I had first hand experience in Poppy's little crusade. Shrub's litle crusade has to stop. To all military here there is no shame in disobeying,deserting, or refusing this illegal war. And all you soon to be draft eligible start making it an issue. Refuse to enroll in the selective service.

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[Democracy Died 2004]

203. Yes wrong wrong wrong!!

We had no business getting involved in a regional conflict. Once again we were not attacked. Take the almost 1 trillion dollars spent on 2 wars and years of enforcement. Donate it to the top engneering Universities in the USA and guess what? NO MORE WAR TO PROTECT OIL INTERESTS!!

Now go jump on a greanade and become a hero.

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[Democracy Died 2004]

220. Yes yes yes.

Are you a little slow or what? Should we start listing bad vs good wars?
We serve in the Military to defend the constitution and freedom of it's peoples and attacks from foreign nations. Not to attack someone because it has a different policy. While I think war is a indication that we are too barbaric to think and act civilized, I guess I can accept that we had to get rid of the Taliban and UBL<Will we ever get the real criminal?> So if you are so pro war and feel the need to be a hero by all means PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GO. You will just be another tick in my desktop counter.

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[H2O Man]

240. No one here believes

that you are in the military. Those in the military are honorable, and show respect for others, even those who are experiencing a crisis in their life. If you had come to DU as a military man, and wanted to discuss serious issues, it would be entirely different. Instead, you choose the tactics of many other republicans who want other people to serve in the military.

[Name removed]

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[H2O Man]

247. Maybe you hadn't noticed

but no one here has agreed with you except one other republican.

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[H2O Man]

270. You are a republican

although you will deny it on DU three times before the cock crows.

[JetCityLiberal]

276. If he really is in the military

he is wasting my tax dollars right now posting right wing lies and spew on an internet message board instead of doing his 'job'.

I don't believe he is in the military either.

I am in no mood to feed the lying, murdering, deserter occupying the oval office's trolls today, just to up their post counts while real Military service personnel and innocent civilians are dying for the appointed deserter's lies.

JetCityLiberal

[Midlodemocrat]

230. Of course it was wrong!

..."restoring democracy to Kuwait". 41 could hardly say that line with a straight face. When has Kuwait ever been a democracy? Only people like you think it was 'justifiable', just like people like you insist on calling the situation in Iraq a 'war' instead of what it really is... an invasion.

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[Midlodemocrat]

244. Not you, GHWB.

...that was his premise to going to war against Iraq. I thought you said you served then? Everyone knows that line. "This will not stand". And who knows why the UN okayed it, but I'll tell you one thing, that they didn't okay it this time and we went anyway has destroyed our standing in the world. This sailor has a conscience, God bless him. He probably joined for an education.

[Name removed]

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[Midlodemocrat]

250. This isn't a war, it is an invasion

...big difference.

edit for typo.

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[Midlodemocrat]

259. Because they did NOTHING to deserve it

...the 100,000 plus Iraqi civilians, roughly 30 times the amount that died on 9/11 did nothing to deserve it. I give that kid a lot of credit. If you check the international news and don't rely on the US media, the photos and stories that you see are absolutely heartbreaking. It is okay to kill them because they aren't western? The whole thing is a travesty and Shrub and his cohorts and all the gang from PNAC should rot in hell.

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[Midlodemocrat]

265. I WAS concerned. Where did the get the weapons in the first place?

... and that number, is actually probably low. If you check out any of the human rights websites, you will see that I am correct.

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[bloom]

150. Cowards are people who go in with a million times the force

and argue that that is fair and brave and good.

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[bloom]

221. OK fine - you got me there - war will never be fair

So how are about arguing about how brave and good that is?

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[bloom]

264. The trouble is that the Iraq war is not and never was "necessary"

you wrote: "As for "good" I never said it was good either. Sometimes it is necessary."


And that is precisely the problem. You can have people who signed up thinking they were going to do the brave and good thing and "defend" our country. And then find out that they were sold a sack of lies.

I think the heroes of today are exactly the people that this thread is about. It does our country no favor to be in this war. If everyone stopped fighting it - the US and the world would be a better place.

[Name removed]

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[MemphisTiger]

29. IMHO, the conciencece(sp?) objectors should be

assigned to desk duty. Even if it's in Iraq or state side. We need people on ships and on the front lines who believe in what they are fighting for. You don't get to be a Navy Petty Officer overnight. That is at the top of the enlisted ranks, which I'm sure you know. BTW, which branch of the service were you in?

[foreigncorrespondent]

95. Oh for crying out loud!

SUPPORT ALL THE TROOPS! Not just those that please you!

A conscience objector usually means they are objecting to a war, not a job. Sheesh!

[CatWoman]

133. talk about a broken record

how do you know he didn't speak up beforehand?

Is he REALLY enjoying the "benefits"? what's left of them anyway?

And who are you? Another knuckle dragging moran from the legion of doom trying to disrupt.

go back under your bridge.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

249. Enjoy your very short stay. (nt)

[donsu]

4. expand your vision - sometimes contracts need to be broken

nt

[Nite Owl]

5. The job he signed up for was

to defend this country and it's interests. This war is doing neither, in fact just the opposite. Kudos to him for having courage, true courage.

[4morewars]

self delete

[mhr]

6. So All Conscientious Objectors Should Be Thrown In Jail?

You reasoning is not sound.

He signed a contact to protect the Constitution not participate in an illegal so-called war.

[Name removed]

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[mhr]

23. No He Signed An Oath To Defend The Constitution Not Demigods

I am a veteran and know full well what the oath says and what it does not say!

[Name removed]

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[mhr]

31. Your Leader , Not Mine - GW Bush - You can Go Pray At His Altar

I refuse to do so!

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[DrWeird]

105. So you're admitting you voted for Bush?

The Bush who went AWOL from the TANG during Vietnam?

So if you voted for such an obvious coward, what does that make you?

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[DrWeird]

129. You're not saying a lot of things.

Why don't you just come clean? You're not fooling anybody.

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[H2O Man]

275. librarian isn't an office.

You voted for George W.

[H2O Man]

111. This isn't about Kerry.

It's about you insulting a member of the American military. That's unpatriotic. We don't like republicans coming on here to insult America.

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[Mandate My Ass]

144. They're risking their lives for Halliburton

Nobody from Iraq ever did anything to me nor were they able to even if they wanted to.

[DrWeird]

153. They're risking their lives for us? How? Explain.

It appears you're switching pronouns there too, buddy, better keep an eye on that.

[H2O Man]

178. DUers love the miltary

It's our families serving in the military. The most patriotic thing you've ever done is watch Sean Hannity.

[KurtNYC]

40. yes Illegal

9/16/2004 The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.

Mr Annan said that the invasion was not sanctioned by the UN security council or in accordance with the UN's founding charter. In an interview with the BBC World Service broadcast last night, he was asked outright if the war was illegal. He replied: "Yes, if you wish."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0916-01.htm

[Name removed]

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[Comicstripper]

164. I agree with shadowgrouse

Er, he really didn't say anything inflamatory. He disagrees. And I doubt he's a liar, and he hasn't changed his story.
So there.
That being said, the war WAS technically illegal. But I still got your back!

[Name removed]

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[Comicstripper]

200. Right

Of course the UN is one standard, and probably the standard standard (as it were), but it certainly isn't definitive.
And I apologize for the behavior of my fellow DUers. Clearly, Waterboy has, well....let's just say that ain't water he's drinking.

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[Democracy Died 2004]

199. Man please go to Iraq

and stop some bullets. I suggest you block them with your forehead.

[suka]

7. you go, shadowgrouse!

Shadowgrouse, GREAT post! But don't be surprised if you get flamed! Not alot of people here agree with us!

[H2O Man]

9. Why don't "you go"?

Why is it that people who voted for Bush want other people to fight the war? You go. It's your duty.

[donheld]

14. Welcome to DU? maybe maybe not

:hi:

[Bridget Burke]

15. You & shadowgrouse drop us a line...

After you've enlisted. Since you think the war is so great, please take the place of somebody who'd rather not go.

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[DrWeird]

24. Mmhmm.

I find you very trustworthy.

[H2O Man]

30. That's funny.

At the start of the thread, your ID showed you as being 49. You just changed it to cover that error up. Truth is, if you joined 12 years ago, you would have been 37. Funny how people who want others to do the fighting are less than honest. People who wouldn't dare go always want someone else to do it for them.

[DrWeird]

34. LOL.

It's not about the enlisting. It's about the lying.

Good catch, btw.

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[H2O Man]

45. It sure did.

I saw it. Also, on post #11, tk2kewl notes the same thing. You are forced to lie, because you have been easily identified as one of the Bush lap dogs.

[Name removed]

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[H2O Man]

67. Yep. You did.

You didn't keep your lies straight.

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[H2O Man]

75. Gosh.

Do the Young Republicans teach advanced tactics such as yours? You have been caught changing your story. Caught. But please: tell us, why did you decide to come on DU and attack an American soldier? We are a patriotic group here, and we support the military. We don't take it lightly when someone comes on to attack an American soldier.

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[H2O Man]

85. I don't have to.

Every DUer reading this can see for themselves. It's another sad example of a republican insulting our military. You just seem so unpatriotic!

[Name removed]

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[H2O Man]

135. America:

Love it or leave it. This is DU, and we hold a little higher standard of patriotism than you seem capable of. Please go to the nearest church and beg forgiveness.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

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[DrWeird]

147. Why do you hate America?

It's clear that you do.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

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[DrWeird]

161. Hey, you're the one calling our service people cowards.

Mr. "I'm not really a soldier, but I play one on message boards."

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

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[H2O Man]

204. The military is not to blame

for the errors of this administration. People should be respecting the military. And the truth is that in the upcoming weeks and months, more and more military people will be examining their conscience. If they honestly believe they are doing the right thing in serving as they are, we need to honor that. If they decide that they are forced to refuse, and are willing to accept the consequences, we need to honor that. If you have a problem with people honoring the military, why aren't you looking at what Rumsfeld said about the lack of equipment in the press conference? That was disgraceful. No miltary person should be sent into dangerous situations without the proper equipment. Rumsfeld is a disgrace to the military.

Years ago, this nation had to face a similar issue involving conscience and war. They tried to draft Muhammad Ali. He refused, and was willing to accept the consequences. At the same time, a middleweight named Rip Randall fought in Vietnam. He was killed on his second tyour of duty. Both of these men were honorable.

What is not honorable is the pact of jackals in the administration that are sending our miliary to Iraq, and for what? And then they don't have the decency to equip them fully? We've been there long enough to make and send the needed equipment, but the money needed to do it is going to Halliburton. If you want to debate issues in a serious way, that's fine. But you come on here disguising yourself, and insulting people.

[Name removed]

217. Deleted message

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[H2O Man]

253. You quoted Sean Hannity

word for word.

[Name removed]

266. Deleted message

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[H2O Man]

277. Sure.

It's your post #217. Read it. Read it now.

[tkmorris]

162. Yes actually it did

[Crunchy Frog]

42. You enlisted when you were 47 years old?

I'm very impressed.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

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[mhr]

17. So You Believe In Not Protecting The Constitution?

Just curious if you are an American or a foreigner that does not understand the Constitution or the history of the US.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

278. Ooops, it seems the other member of your tag team is gone!

Sorry. No, wait, I'm not.

[Bridget Burke]

10. I'm sure the Marines "appreciate the ride"

As they go off to fight & die in Chimp's oil war.

This sailor is not fighting for his own life--he was in no danger. But he was concerned about the Marines who might not return. And concerned about taking part in a war against people who had done him no harm.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[DrWeird]

48. Your great-grandfather fought the nazis?

But you claim to be 49 years old?

Ironic, your great-grandfather used to shoot nazis, and here you are acting like one.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

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[Crunchy Frog]

172. The Nazis had formally declared war

on your great-grandfather's country, and were allies with a country that had just attacked us. Some people would consider that harm, I guess you don't.:shrug:

Sorry for getting your age mixed up with your post count, but what would you expect from a dumb lib anyway?

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

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[Crunchy Frog]

224. Germany DECLARED WAR on us.

That means something to me, I guess it doesn't mean anything to you.:shrug:

And I wouldn't worry too much about your profile. I don't expect you'll be here long enough to make figuring it out worth your while.

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

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[Crunchy Frog]

263. Like all RWers, you keep moving the goalposts around

I was discussing Germany with you, which you had brought up. I made a point that you couldn't dispute. Rather than conceding my point, you went and changed the subject.

I don't know why you didn't just state in the first place that Saddam's firing at planes in the no fly zones qualify in your book as an act of war sufficient to justify our invasion of Iraq. Why couldn't you just make that point instead of bringing up a bunch of irrelevent stuff about Germany?

For that matter, why didn't your president give that as the reason for the invasion instead of making up a bunch of ridiculous crap about WMDs? Why did he have to lie, when according to you, we already had sufficient justification?

And who here is accusing you of being a progressive? I'm certainly not.

[rppper]

287. germany also was patroling u-boats off the east coast......

they were sinking our convoys long before war was declared. read up on the battle for the atlantic sometime armchair patriot...

oops...didnt realize he was tombstoned already....buh bye grouse-dude....

[donheld]

12. Contracts based on lies

What are they really worth. In this case he should break it. Maybe you can go in his stead.

[donheld]

18. Welcome to DU? maybe maybe not

:hi:

[Jack_DeLeon]

27. I agree with you...

[Crunchy Frog]

58. So tell me,

what's it like to undergo such rapid ageing? Is it kind of like that one Star Trek episode?

[indigobusiness]

79. The contract included the commitment to fight ALL enemies...

foregn AND domestic.

He is a man of conscience. You are the coward.

[H2O Man]

140. Hey!

Good to see you! Why do republicans like him come on here and insult the military, the flag, God and Country?

[indigobusiness]

187. Beats me??? Orwell warned us of an upside down world.

I wish Orwell were president.

[H2O Man]

213. Why this guy

thinks Rumsfeld is a patriot is beyond me.

[foreigncorrespondent]

89. OMG!

That certainly isn't very progressive of you, is it?

Have you not heard of the term conscience objector? No! I didn't think so!

[Name removed]

219. Deleted message

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[elsur]

227. Actually he would qualify for classification as a CO ....

your classification as combat or non-combat really has nothing to do with it.

If you're in a combat role and apply for CO classification the military's first choice will be to place you in a non-combat role. For you to refuse a non-combat assignment you have to demonstrate that your beliefs are such that any support of the military would violate those beliefs. Tougher standard but it's been done dozens of times over the last few years. At that point you are discharged and cannot be called back through the inactive reserve.

The reason this guy doesn't qualify is because he doesn't even mention that he's opposed to war. Just that he didn't think we would attack someone who hadn't first attacked us. If he's being honest the young petty officer obviously never read much history.

[LanternWaste]

274. In 1936, Kreigsmarine Officer Jan Ossining

"In 1936, Kreigsmarine Officer Jan Ossining refused to board the ship he was assigned to after learning he would be forced to sign a Loyalty Oath once aboard..." (History of the German Navy, 1876-1945, Prof. Dana Landing).

I have no doubt many of his fellow sailors said something along the lines of, "This guy needs to go to jail, he signed a contract and agreed to do a job. No one is even asking him to fight, just drop off the SS who probably appreciate the ride"

[Nordic]

2. good for him. They should all refuse

in my opinion.

[MatrixEscape]

8. Hmmm ... are the people who swore an oath

to defend and protect the Consitution, in our Government, sticking to their oath?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[mhr]

28. The Oath That Military People Take Is Not A Matter Of Opinion

It is clear and concise - Protect The Constitution.

As a veteran I understand this very well.

I would never have taken an oath to protect Demigods like George W. Bush.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[Nordic]

44. that's fine. I think that's where he expects to be

like he says "they can't throw us all in jail"

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

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[Nordic]

114. then you're not in the military

if you believe that.

If you do what he's doing, you fully expect to be thrown in the brig. Probably naked, and in a cold cold room.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

272. Ask your money back on that telepathy course

It isn't working.

[intheflow]

77. The Rule of Law

Is determined by the power elite and designed to perpetutate propertied parties domination over the masses.

The only way bad laws ever get changed is through civil disobedience. Civil disobedience recognizes th rule of law and accepts its consequences. This marine is honoring a long list of people who went to prison for their beliefs, including Martin Luther King, Jr., Henry David Thoreau, and even Jesus Christ. He is a true patriot.

You, on the other hand, sound like a mouthpiece for the government.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

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[intheflow]

117. Thoreau and MLK

we just men. Same as this sailor. It takes a real man to stand up to power and challenge it.

It takes a sheep to follow a government blindly into an unjust war.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

257. You read minds now?

He is 100% aware he's going to jail. The "can't throw us all" obviously refers to hoping the government/military will eventually be overwhelmed by the numbers of FUTURE POSSIBLE additional refusniks and forced to reconsider. Straight from the Gandhi book.

Now you can argue that THIS hope of his may be vain, which I unfortunately think it is. Hoping not to go to jail himself? No way Jose.

[H2O Man]

37. Not at all.

It seems the closest you have come to the military is your collection of GI Joe dolls, and your poster og George W. in his Power Ranger's costume. Soldiers have the right -- indeed, the obligation -- to refuse to obey an immoral order.

[elsur]

181. That's just never going to fly ...

... hopefully he finds better representation at his court-martial.

He's a weapons control technician. The order was to man his post on the freakin ship in his air-conditioned space and watch colored blips on the screen all the way across the ocean.

They didn't order him to rape, pillage, or burn. He's screwed.

[peacebird]

46. based on the reception Rummy got from soldiers in Iraq and now this -

i think some in the military are beginning to wake up. when the military start to get vocal against this occupation then i begin to have hope that the country may yet survive.
rock on, Petty Officer, rock on!

[proud patriot]

55. I like that sailor's attitude

:-)

[Ian David]

82. What if they threw a war and no one came?

Is there a way we can start a legal defense fund for him and other soldiers who have refused to serve, or is there an organization that already does that?

And how the hell can states like Michigan pass laws like The Conscientious Objector Policy Act (COPA), that allows physicians to refuse to perform procedures-- or to care for people they have a "conscientious objection" to (the law protects everyone except gay people from being discriminated against) and still prosecute soldiers who object to killing people for no reason?

Doctors have signed a contract of sorts-- The Hypocratic Oath-- and the COPA allows them to violate that contract.

So, we'll write a law allowing a pharmacist to refuse emergency contraception to a rape victim, but a soldier who refuses to commit war crimes can face a firing squad?

Give me a fucking break.

See:
http://www.notfrisco2.com/webzine/Lynn/004685.html
Conscientious Objector Policy Act

It's politics Friday, and today's issue is the Conscientious Objector Policy Act proposed in Michigan, brought to my attention by Joe Perez. According to Andrew Sullivan


A Catholic and Republican initiative in Michigan will allow doctors to refuse treatment to any person of whom they morally disapprove. I can see why some doctors should be allowed to refuse to perform abortions on moral grounds (except I doubt that any doctors are routinely put in that position). But the sweeping nature of this bill is clearly aimed at allowing doctors to refuse care to homosexuals (there is an exception barring refusal of care on racial grounds).

http://www.notfrisco2.com/webzine/Lynn/004685.html

Also:
http://www.michiganlegislature.org/documents/2003-2004/committeebillrecord/house/asp/2003-HCBR-HEAL.ASP

http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?a=b&page=getobject&objName=2003-HB-5006

[leftchick]

71. Now He is what I call a True Patriot!

My WWII Navy Vet Dad would be Proud! :)

[efhmc]

74. gwb, the BIGGEST COWARD OF ALL TIMES!!!

I am a woman and a too old one at that so I will and did not have to serve. I will continue to teach all who will listen that war is an evil thing. Too bad this young man ever joined the military, especially under the warring idiot who is at the helm now. BTW, I hate, despise, abhor, detest, denigrate, gwb, THE BIGGEST COWARD EVER!!!

[elsur]

87. Regardless of what anybody thinks about his stand ....

... he's disobeying the law. Forget the Oath as some here want to debate the meaning of it.

At a minimum he's violating several Articles of the UCMJ. A quick glance at them shows that at a minimum he's looking at possible prosecution under any of the following:

Article 87 Missing Movement
Article 90 Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
Article 92 Failure to obey order or regulation
Article 94 Mutiny and sedition

The UCMJ is rather clear cut and not nearly as nuanced as civilian law. If he's going to protest he should at least keep it very quiet and to himself. If 50 guys get up and leave that ship because of him he's looking at Article 94 which is going to turn out badly for him.

And before any of you suggest I go I'll tell you I already went and was in the military from 89 through 94 and spent a good deal of that time on the sand over in the Middle East.

[Bridget Burke]

113. Yes, you've already been.

But they're calling up reserves who served in Vietnam.

Surely someone with your military expertise would be of use. What was your specialty? Besides "bunkhouse lawyer" that is.

[elsur]

128. I'm not a laywer but ...

... somebody with an IQ slightly above a toaster can understand the do's and don't of the UCMJ. I have to assume that those who are arguing that he didn't break the law have never read it.

It's not some arcane reference that is dusted off for special occasions. Large parts of it are hammered into your skull from the time you're in boot camp.

If I get called up I get called up. I'm 35 now and have never been in the active reserves so I doubt that's going to happen but if it does it wouldn't be the end of the world.

[Midlodemocrat]

242. Were you a CO?

...because if you were and you didn't resign your commission upon completion of your Tour of Duty, adios.

[indigobusiness]

127. You failed to mention the articles regarding illegal orders...

etc.

[elsur]

137. Please elaborate.

[indigobusiness]

173. You are the expert...

perhaps you could elaborate?

[CatWoman]

188. ah, fuck

just give him a toaster and let HIM figure it out.

[elsur]

190. I gather that your suggestion for his defense was that he ...

... was given an illegal order. Perhaps so but that certainly isn't mentioned in the article.

What was mentioned was that he refused to board the ship as it got underway. Nothing illegal about those orders even if he doesn't like them.

[indigobusiness]

197. I referenced your mention of the Articles.

Not him.

Your argument was not fairly formed. Soldiers have a duty to excercise their conscience and judgment.

[elsur]

205. That's bullshit .. if he wants to file as a conscientous objector ...

... there is a provision for it. It's a rather lengthy process and involves interviews with family and friends but it works.

If he's not a CO, he doesn't get the luxury to decide whether or not he wants to support a particular war.

[indigobusiness]

222. Well, that proves you know nothing

of what you speak.


http://gulfwarvets.com/

[elsur]

236. Is there something that that link is supposed to be teaching

me about CO status?

[indigobusiness]

255. That link is for any and all

that want to avail themselves of it.

[H2O Man]

223. It's not up to you.

You have no say in his conscience. Go join yourself up.

[rppper]

289. art.94???...how so?

he is involving no one but himself....87, 90 and 92 certainly, but mutiny and sedition is a stretch, even if others miss a movement. he is forcing no other sailor and has not presented himself a danger to or against the command structure of the ship itself. he is no more in control of your imagined 50 other sailors than you are...he only hopes his actions will inspire other acts of one on one civil disobidience. no where in his statement does he say he wants to lead some movement.


i think you are thinking wishfully........

rppper...former squid...submarines...88-97

[Cuban_Liberal]

108. You take the King's shilling, you play the King's tune

He should be busted lower than whale shit.

[DrWeird]

132. At least he's not doing the cowardly thing.

i.e. going to fight in Iraq.

[Cuban_Liberal]

159. No, he's being insubordinate.

He's also being disingenuous. Anyone who joins the military knows that one day he or she may be called upon to fight in a war.

[DrWeird]

168. Give him a medal, he deserves one.

He's smart enough to know "just following orders" is no excuse.

[Cuban_Liberal]

171. No.

He's disobeying lawful orders, an action I would prefer not to see rewarded in our armed forces.

[DrWeird]

177. Yeah, tell it to the Nuremberg tribunal.

nt

[Cuban_Liberal]

195. What exactly is illegal about the order he was given?

Can you tell me what is illegal about it? Can you cite any law that his orders violate?

[DrWeird]

212. Oh, I'm sure under German law...

those concentration camps were perfectly legal.

[Cuban_Liberal]

216. That was not the question that was asked.

What law can you cite, from ANY national law or international agreement, that makes the order he was given illegal?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

288. Yo, Doc! Check your inbox and tell me if I'm right! (nt)

[tkmorris]

179. Of course they might

However, they have a reasonable expectation that any war they are called to fight in will be to "support and protect" the constitution and people of the United States. Or at least defend the tender sensibilities of Mom and her apple pie. Not go to war just to tickle the fancy of the current (*) CIC. The only question is, which is this war in Iraq? I know what my opinion is, yours isn't stated.

[Cuban_Liberal]

201. My opinion on this war is a long-term matter of record.

I opposed it and marched against it before the war, and I oppose it now. That has nothing to do with good military order.

[enki23]

182. bullshit.

that was the core of the nuremberg defense, that all soldiers are obligated to follow orders, no matter what the orders are. participating in an unjust war, if one feels it is truly unjust, compels a person to do exactly what this man is doing.

and he's far fucking braver than those who bite their lip and go, as i would have done. the navy isn't in harm's way in this war.

[CatWoman]

192. HI, ENK!!!!!

:hi:

good to see you :D

[enki23]

228. hey catwoman

still kicking. (against the pricks?)

[Cuban_Liberal]

207. Oh, horse hockey!

The man has lawful orders; the 'Nuremburg defense' dealt with clearly illegal orders. Apples and oranges. Not even close...

:eyes:

[enki23]

225. it's true that german soldiers weren't prosecuted merely for fighting

however, those who refused to serve certainly were not in the wrong. it's the logical extension of the obligation to refuse unlawful orders. this man would have, even if only indirectly, contributed to the unlawful killing of civilians in an unjust war. morally, there is no real difference.

the man is a hero for opposing the state when the state is wrong, and for breaking a contract when the other party is--to put it very, very lightly--not acting in good faith.

[Cuban_Liberal]

233. The man is an insubordinate sailor, period.

He deserves brig time and a dishonorable discharge.

[enki23]

237. if you have the moral reasoning capacity of an infant, i suppose

MLK should have been in a penitentiary, ghandi should have been shot, and george washington should have been drawn and fucking quartered, the treasonous motherfucker.

[Cuban_Liberal]

238. No.

The law is quite clear, and he broke it.

[enki23]

248. okay... bye now.

.

[Cuban_Liberal]

251. Thanks for playing.

Somehow, I don't see rewarding insubordination in our military as a good, long-term strategy.

[rppper]

290. he knows that it's coming...he admitts it.......

doesn't make 1 section wrong nor one section right. he knows he is going to pay somehow someway for missing movement and failure to follow a direct order. at least he is not trying to blow smoke up anyones ass as to where he sits. that takes some degree of courage.

as a navy vet, i can tell you with little or no doubt that no one onboard will suffer...someone else will take his place on watch, or someone will be trained to quickly fill in...most ships that depart always leave 10 or 20 crewmembers behind for whatever reasons...schools, training, leave...whatever. this is making waves because we have an ass-hat in office, we are in a "war" and he has been outspoken about it. i don't think i ever had a ships movement where at least one crewmember ducked out.

he is wrong for doing what he's doing....i can respect his statements and his attitude, and i do...BUT...for college cash or whatever, he joined, signed a contract, swore away his constitutional rights and gave uncle sam and the shrub blanket permission to send him wherever and whenever they felt his talents would be most needed....he knew this, and he knew it was breaking the law. he's no dumbie...he's hedgeing his bets.

what will happen to him...probably not a lot...i doubt he will see any brig time....the easiest thing and the most likely for the navy to do would be to process him out...probably a general or dishonorable discharge, reduction in rate, give up some pay to the old man...maybe some time comfined to the ship or to the base maa's(extra duty is the term).....he really should keep his mouth shut from here on out though, because they can do a lot worse to him if they choose too.

just my .02...........

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

267. He is VOLUNTARILY FORSAKING the King's shilling.

He knows what the price is, and he's willing to pay. I fail to understand your anger towards him.

[Cuban_Liberal]

280. I'm not in the least angry with him.

I simply believe that his actions should not be rewarded, as some here seem to want to do. I find the concept of a military populated by people unwilling to obey lawful orders a frightening concept.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

282. No? Could have fooled me.

For some reason I thought "He should be busted lower than whale shit" was an expression of anger. Maybe indignation would be a better word?

[Cuban_Liberal]

284. Neither one.

Just an honest, straightforward statement about how I believe he should be dealt with. Did I also mention a dishonorable discharge, after he gets out of the brig? If not, I should have.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

285. Suit yourself. Me, I choose to have sympathy.

But I don't think he shouldn't go to jail. His imprisonment serves a purpose, and he seems to be fully aware of it. If he just wanted to get away, he could have fled to Canada or somewhere else. He didn't. Why, I wonder, is that?

[Cuban_Liberal]

286. He's chose to be civilly disobedient.

I have no problem with him choosing to do that, and he should, therefore, have no problem with the punishment specified for his actions.

I don't see any conflict.

:shrug:

[Solon]

291. I have a question Cuban_Liberal...

If the war itself is declared illegal by international law, wouldn't any order given that would force anyone to break this law be an unlawful order? If so, wouldn't this man be within his rights to refuse unlawful orders?

[Cuban_Liberal]

292. It depends.

I don't think that would be an affirmative defense, however, because the specific order he is disobeying is not an overt act in furtherance of the war.

[Solon]

293. That sounds vague enough to really confuse the issue!

Up to interpretation I suppose, though I would think that any order to deploy to a battlezone of an illegal war would be an overt enough act, I'm no expert on these matters.

[indigobusiness]

229. Beyond Treason

http://gulfwarvets.com/
http://gulfwarvets.com/hot.htm

Notice To All Veterans!

ICC Suit - FERES


All: Jeff Trueman with VERPA is asking if anyone wants to be co-plaintiffs on his suit with the International Criminal Court (ICC) to contact him at:
email: [e-mail]

Anyone that has been injured and not afforded due process by the federal government (injured - does not mean strictly from the anthrax vaccine). Ex. Jeff's main issue was being denied due process for reporting fraud, waste and abuse on his leadership. This is also not limited to those currently in the military. Anyone that was denied, can join. Jeff is obtaining counsel, he is not the attorney, so anyone interested being a co-plaintiff, there will be a $20.00 fee to help with costs. If you are currently in a suit, I'd suggest contacting your attorney before proceeding with any other suits. Below is a short exerpt on what Jeff sent:

"What it means is this; any American who believes the Feres Doctrine denied them the right to be heard based upon a wrongful act or omission of a federal employee or more closely to the basis of the complaint, a person reprised against for reporting fraud, waste or abuse ... can be named as co-plaintiffs. If that is the case, they will have to contact me.
http://www.thepowerhour.com/news/notice_vets.htm

[bluestateguy]

261. He seems willing to go to jail. That the essence of civil disobedience

The idea that one is so passionate about their beliefs that they are willing to accept the consequences for their disobedience of the law. The military has the right to enforce their laws, but he also has a right to stand up for his beliefs.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

268. THAT IS THE POINT. Unfortunately, some here are hell-bent of

shutting this crucial detail from their minds so they can better demonize this guy.

[Swamp Rat]

279. Ain't it grand!

Civil Disobedience
by Henry David Thoreau


I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which the will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war, the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.

(snip)

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/civ.dis.html