I'm thinking about enlisting in the Army

[oldhat]

Are there any veterans here or someone who knows something about the enlistment process? I have some questions for you.

Thanks.

[cally]

1. Why??

I'm not against service in the armed forces but why the Army??? Think about your contribution and the best way to give that. Also, recruiters lie. Don't believe a word they say.

[sadinred]

2. Why????????????????????????????????????

My husband was in Vietnam. I can ask him. BUT WHY DO YOU WANT TO ENLIST????????????????

[oldhat]

6. It's really not important why I want to enlist.

Honestly, that's for another thread. My reasons are complex.

I just have nuts and bolts questions about basic training, medical records, etc. in this thread.

[tuvor]

8. So start another thread.

Hey, it was your idea, not mine.

[oldhat]

12. Nutshell

In a nutshell, I have always been attracted to military life. The order, discipline, comraderie, etc. It offers what I haven't had a lot of in life.

I'm bored stiff with my dreary middle class extistence. I want to do something more than come home from work and watch TV or go online.

I need money for graduate school because my parents left me out in the cold when I turned 18. I had to put myself through college and I have very little money right now. The benefits in the GI Bill are very good.

I want to challenge myself mentally and physically. I want to take a chance. I want to see what I'm made of.

[Minstrel Boy]

14. "I want to see what I'm made of."

You do know, in Iraq, that's not meant figuratively.

[oldhat]

15. Getting injured or killed is a risk I am willing to take.

[Djinn]

52. fine

are you willing to be involved in killing civilians - including children?

[shadowknows69]

61. Are you the new Army recruiting spokesperson?

Do you voice all their radio commercials too?

[ixat]

88. Hey, everyone let's please be civil now and avoid another 'Nam overkill.

[Djinn]

154. what?

is there another army I'm not aware of that doesn't force people into a situation of being responsible for the death of civilians in order to bolster profit or geo-political power?

Hey even I'd join that one

[wurzel]

105. And is killing and injuring other people "a risk you are willing to take"?

[stubertmcfly]

107. that's what i was going to say!

shit. i am not sure that is something i would want to live with the rest of my life.

[wurzel]

113. It something most people really don't get.

War is not about dying. It is about killing.

[tuvor]

18. I'm just a dumb Canuck. I know nothing about US military life.

So please learn as much as you can from people who have actually been there. It doesn't sound to me like time is of the essence, so look carefully before you leap.

[sadinred]

22. Your middle class existence is optional

and you don't have to fight in Iraq to opt out! There is much you can do here. Try the Peace Corps, it is hard and often dangerous, but for a much better purpose than war.
If you want to take a chance then fall in love.
If you want mental challenge work for feeding hungry people.
If you want a physical challenge run marathons, or climb billboards.
If you want money than work through grad school, money will follow.
STOP WATCHING TV NOW!!!!!!!! NO MATTER WHAT YOU DECIDE!!!
Are you willing to take a bullet or leave a bullet to make the changes you need in your life?
Honestly I think you are dissatisfied and lonely. War won't help that. (I am sorry if I am wrong.)

[Minstrel Boy]

37. A wonderful post I hope gets read.

"If you want to take a chance then fall in love."

It's like trying to talk someone off a bridge.

[sadinred]

91. Thanks. You know I was up late into the night thinking about this

I even had a dream that I was being beheaded!! This poor guy. I just think...well I will post another reply to him I guess. I hope we all can change his mind!!!!

edited

[Kipepeo]

78. omg I second the PEACE CORPS

Try teaching english or math to kids who can't afford shoes or a toothbrush. I promise it will give you that thing you seem to be looking for that so many of us probably seem to lack here: meaning outside of material things. Try sleeping with roaches and rats at night, in the dead dark of night - i mean when it gets so dark there is NO light- a dark like I have never seen in America - try that for scary. You don't need war to shake you from middle class privilege. Poverty alone will be fine. It is worth it. And teaching children is countless times better than than possibly having to kill them.

We need people for the peace corps more than we need people for Bush's war.

Edited to add, here ya go friend: http://www.peacecorps.org/

[lukasahero]

136. Excellent post and excellent options

I hope the original poster reads it and considers some alternatives. There are ways to make a difference in this world that don't involve supporting the neo-con death-cult.

[sadinred]

150. this is the only post I have read in which it really is Life or Death!

I hope he changes his mind.
24 is soooo young. Really a hard time of life I think. I think he is looking for escape. A shame.

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. A GI bill will do you NO GOOD if

you're dead. Please sleep on this. Don't do anything rash. Why would you want to die fighting in an illegal, preemptive BOGUS war and kill innocent Iraqi babies? :cry:

[antigone382]

28. There are other ways to pay for grad school

You can get scholarships, grants, etc.


You say you're bored and you want something to do with your life besides coming home and watching TV, and it sounds to me like you're looking for meaning in your life. There are TONS of alternatives to the military, in particular the army. If you want to make a difference in the world, join the Peace Corps, volunteer at homeless shelters, get involved in organizations committed to improving your community. These are all great ways to improve the world around you, as well as your own sense of self, and they also look very good when you're applying for scholarships.

If we were in a just war for a righteous cause, I would say sure, join up. I'd join with you (and I almost did join after 911, right out of high school, until I realized that the war in Iraq was a sham). If you want something to do, take up mountain biking...PLEASE, don't throw your life away for a bunch of oil-hungry assholes that don't give a damn about you or your family.

[oldhat]

32. What if...?

What if I don't really care about my community? What if I actually sort of hate it and want to get far, far away from it?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZCat]

48. There are other options besides the military

I was about your age (22) when I bailed out of college and moved from the area where i grew up. I moved out to L.A. and joined the environmental movement. Sure, changing the scenery doesn't solve the problems inside of you, but sometimes it can help you focus on what really is going on. It took me a while, but I finally figured out some of what I was missing before and at least now have a direction in my life.

I'm just worried that you will enlist for a multiple-year commitment, and then find that changing the external qualities of your life doesn't change the way you feel. You could then find yourself hating the military as much as you hate your current community - and will have to wait until the end of your commitment to change anything significant about your life.

Could you try something less drastic first, rather than enlisting? Perhaps something with a shorter duration?

I'm not arguing that you are in the same place that I was, but it sounds like you have settled on this for similar reasons to the ones I had when I bailed out of school. But if you feel that the military is the only option, good luck (and keep your head down).

[antigone382]

55. Well, I can empathize with that, since it's what I just did in February

But there are still other options besides the military...and like I said, you could always join the Peace Corps, and run a much lower chance of having to pick up a gun and blow off a kid's face.

Still, if you feel strongly that this is the best choice for you, I respect your decision and I'll support you...just remember that once you sign on the dotted line, there is no saying "no," unless you have connections in Canada and a damned good lawyer.

[FlaGranny]

106. From the experience of a life long lived,

if you can't be happy right where you are, you can't be happy anywhere. Happiness comes from the inside and not from others (unless you are incarcerated).

[shanti]

125. you must have a death wish

because enlisting in the ARMY to go to iraq is just that.

[Justin54B20L]

41. Depending on what your major is I'd go with another Uniformed Service.

Like me, I'm an Army vet now ENVH major and when I graduate, i'm rejoining a Uniformed Service. I'm becoming a Commisioned Officer in the Public Health Service. Its all the military benefits w/ no contractual obligation or doing any of that other whooah crap, plus I can still go for my Masters and then PhD as well there. Check it out.

http://www.usphs.gov

[imenja]

68. Do you support the war in Iraq? What's really going on here?

Because that's where you'll be going. I think you know this wouldn't be the place to ask about real military advice. I wonder what is really going on here?

[leesa]

93. And this is all you can think of?? Why don't you join an organization

that provides aid to the world. They go to all sorts of exotic countries and they don't blow people up.

[Kitka]

98. Let me tell you a story….

My great friend enlisted because he was bored of his semi-charmed life, provided to him by his successful parents. They even offered for him to go back to school, but he decided he’d lived off them long enough at age 25. So, he enlisted in the army to get his education. This was a year and a half ago. He was told many things, including the fact that his education that he had would put him in a good position to work with computers for his job in the army. He did so, and went to specialized training, and succeeded – he was very happy and proud of himself. Then he gets notice a month or two ago telling him he’s heading for Iraq just before Christmas. And that’s okay, I mean, that’s what he signed up for, right? The problem is, they’re assigning him to drive an 18 wheeler in a convoy. Without training. Without paying him the pay differential usually awarded to those in that position. When he objects, saying he needs to be trained before being thrown into that position in a battle zone, he is told to shut up.

He signed up willing to go to war, but trusted he would be trained and respected. He is neither, and leaves for war this month. I’d think twice, my friend.

[Xipe Totec]

102. Strange Question, Strange Forum to post in

Getting into the army is not rocket science. Start here:

http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp

Although if if you had trouble figuring that much on your own, you may have trouble passing the qualification test (let alone making it in graduate school later).

Best of luck to you.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

129. Become a fireman then

All the challenge and danger and discipline and comraderie you can get -- while saving lives instead of destroying them.

IF the motivations you expounded are REALLY your only ones.

[wantedtohelp]

146. Clark supporters always amazed me

"The order, discipline, comraderie, etc. It offers what I haven't had a lot of in life."

You guys actually believed that stuff.

You might watch republican selected propaganda on FAUX showing this, but let me tell you when you get in to a combat zone there is NO fu**ing "discipline & order".

"The benefits in the GI Bill are very good."

A lot of good it will do you dead fighting an Iraqi who is fighting an invading force.

"I want to challenge myself mentally"

Unless you go in as an officer don't count on it.

"and physically"

Ok.

"want to take a chance. I want to see what I'm made of"

Oh jesus christ. It's this 16 year old attitude that turned me off to a lot of clark's supporters. How old are you? And you "want to see what you are made of" in this way?

The clark supporters glorified military. (not realizng the FAUX message is an illusion - americans could give a shit about the troops, otherwise they wouldn't supporting wasting their lives in a bush oil war) Often in ways you'd expect from a 16 year old who had just finished a 5 hour talk with a recruiter. I remember some of them wanted him to go around in full military uniform against bush. It's as if they didn't realize WHY that was a bad thing.

[GreenPartyVoter]

147. Peace Corps, hon. That'll show you what you are made of too

------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[sbj405]

156. Since you already have a college degree, consider an officer program

[LibertyorDeath]

83. Do not worry about getting thru basic training

With a total of approx 50,000 KIA WIA since the invasion of Iraq in March 0f 2003 they need all the Canon fodder they can lay their hands on.

You will pass a condensed version of Basic & be on your way to death & destruction ASAP.

[0007]

90. Korea war vet here, sez to forget it kid!

Get a life, think for yourself. Don't come here asking stupid questions. The Army will tell ya all about it!!

[MemphisTiger]

130. I know people that are in the service

Start now on running, body weight exercises like pushups, situps, and pullups. You will be doing alot of these. Also, if you have a degree you could go to OCS and get commisioned not enlist. As far as your medical you should be okay if nothing is majorly wrong with you. Have you considered the NAVY or other branch of service? What would you like to do in the military? That is an important question you have to ask yourself prior to visiting a recruiter. BTW, recruiters will lie to you. If they tell you you'll be flying F-18's in no time or are a shoe in for Special Ops, be weary.

[in_cog_ni_to]

3. Don't do it!

Please. :(

[greatauntoftriplets]

4. Google Army enlistment form....

It is a pdf but I don't have Adobe Acrobat at home. It's there.

Why?? Do you know what you will be getting into????? War is senseless, cruel and stupid. These words were spoken to me earlier tonight by a Viet Nam veteran who has been through hell. Are you prepared for that? To be shot? Or shrapneled? Maimed?

On edit: My sweetie told me tonight that no one comes back from war undamaged. He is whole, but he still suffers frequent nightmares, nearly 40 years later.

Can you handle that?????

[oldhat]

7. Yes, I think so.

I'll approach it like Tobias Wolff did.

Thanks for the link to the form.

[cliss]

10. Thank you G. for putting a human perspective

on this. I agree.

[greatauntoftriplets]

19. You are welcome...

After my conversation with me darling tonight, I could not help but do that. He went through hell. Nearly 40 years later, he still cannot talk about it.

[cliss]

43. That is so sad. Emotional wounds

that probably take far longer to heal than injuries to the body. Maybe never.

As far as enlisting, I have 3 teenage boys who are "cannon fodder". I am 100% patriotic in that I would encourage them to go, if it was for national security. If they needed to defend our country, that would be one thing.

But there was never any danger to the US. This is a war fought for corporate profits, and Quarterly Earnings Statements. For Halliburton. For Kellogg Brown & Root. No thanks. They won't be laying in a ditch, bleeding to death, as their last words pass their lips, "mom". Never.

There is nothing new about fighting for profits rather than self-defense. It was done all the time in the past. We just got through reading about King Charles the 12th of Sweden, who was called the "warrior king". He wanted to control the Baltic and have monopoly power over the ports so he could charge a lot of money in tariffs.

He conquered Poland, and next Russia was on his shopping list. He sacrificed thousands of loyal Swedes. He bankrupted the treasury. There was no money left. He had to stop. Finally, someone shot him in the temple with a button from a uniform. Believe it or not, he was in Norway, trying to conquer that country.

And for what? After his death, Sweden relinquished all it's territories. They just gave it all up, and went back to life as usual. Meanwhile, there were many villages with nothing but old people, a few women and kids running around. All the men were gone.

What a waste.

[indigolady]

115. how could you not have Adobe Acrobat?

[parsifal_e]

5. Why ?

Any other time if america is ever under attack is understandable , but why now !!!!!!! want to shoot some iraqi civilians ?

[rbking]

9. What is it you want to know?

I'm a vet, but I've been out a long time. Things may have changed but I'll do my best to help you.

[oldhat]

13. Thanks

How tough is basic training physically? I'm not in bad shape but I'm worried I'll wash out.

Is getting through basic training one of those "I never thought I could do it but I did" things?

How does the Army get ahold of your medical history? Do they call your doctor or do you provide your history?

[greatauntoftriplets]

21. My nephew enlisted in the Army....

Fortunately he was never deployed overseas. But they made him get his wisdom teeth pulled before he could report to basic training.

[Justin54B20L]

36. BCT is physically progressive.

They do it in incremental steps, at least my OSUT training did. Take it from me, I was a 125lb weakling who couldn't do more than 10 push-ups and run a mile, by the end, I was doing 60+ push-ups and running a 13 minute 2 mile course.

As for your medical history, they pretty much go with what you submit, but if you leave something out, there's a good chance they'll find it at MEPS (Military Entrance Processing Station).

[rbking]

39. As I recall

and this could be faulty, they only asked about medical history. It may be that I signed a waiver and they got it, but I don't recall it as a big deal if they did.

As for basic training, I was in good shape and thought that it was going to kill me. That was before I got there and found out that I could already exceed their qualifications. As I recall it was like a twelve minute mile, a couple dozen push-ups, etc.

Don't get me wrong, there are some grueling activities, but they are mostly mental. Getting up at hours when I would normally have been coming home drunk was not fun, or funny. Night time road marches in full gear is less than amusing as well.

Oddly, the hardest thing for me was learning to keep my yap shut when I felt some "soft body" was getting unnecessarily berated by the DI's. As a guy that had a bad habit of steppin' up on bullies this was not the best choice in basic training.

It is not that difficult to get through it physically. If you try to get yourself in some kind of shape before going it will be easier for you all the way around.

In your response to another poster you said that you think you can handle the nightmares and such if you go into combat. This is some unsolicited advice, go to a nearby veterans hospital, a nursing home with vets in it, or find a veterans support group so you can talk, face to face, with guys that have been there. Don't ask 'em what they saw, or if they have nightmares; ask them about their time in country. Let them open up the wounds, then watch their eyes for the answers. Don't dismiss this part of the equation, no matter what your reason for joining the Army, this is sometimes an aspect of war that makes you wish you'd died.

If there's anything else you need to know, just ask.

[oldhat]

42. Thank you.

Excellent post. I appreciate that.

I stuck up for the kids who got bullied in school, too so I'll try and keep my head down and shut up.

[rbking]

53. btw

I hope your reasons for joining are more noble than mine were. I went through high school grad ceremony on Wed., married my pregnant girlfriend on Sat., and with no obvious need for a honeymoon I left for basic training on Mon. Not the best week of my life.

You're young (24 I see) and based on another post at 5'8" 165 you are not likely to be too out of shape. It should be okay for you. Just make sure you are joining for a good reason, all jokes aside, I did do the right thing for me at the time. There was nothing that was more important to me at the time than to take care of the mistake I had made. There are things that are truly more important than any discomfort we might endure. An unexpected pregnancy motivated me to get a job and grow up fast, it was, and still is imo, the right way to do things.

Whatever your reason for joining oldhat, make sure it is one you are willing to live with and maybe kill or die for. Killing, even in combat is not easy to live with, make sure that your reason for joining is stronger than your conscience. The AF and Navy have it made for the most part, launching bombs and missles from miles away is never having to look a man in the face before you kill him, and then wonder if he has left a widow and children. A soldiers nightmares come not from wounds they suffer, but the suffering they caused or witnessed. Killing goes against our human nature, don't let anyone fool you about it, unless we are wrongly wired it is not normally within us to kill.

[oldhat]

54. I've had many dialogues with myself about this.

My reasons for joining are not 100% "noble" (I doubt anyone's are) but I'm not racing headlong into this.

Regarding killing another human being, it's a grim fact of military life but a fact of life nonetheless.

Thanks.

[UdoKier]

70. Doing it under the auspices of military permission to do so

does not make it any less of a murder, if the war is completely and fundamentally corrupt as is the case with Iraq.

On some level you already know that. If you take an innocent life (and the Iraqis are ALL innocent, IMO - it's THEIR country) the shit will haunt you.

[IrateCitizen]

123. Killing others is more than a "grim fact", oldhat. It can destroy you.

I served as a junior officer in the Army Reserves for about 8 years. I just got out this September, and I couldn't be happier.

When I joined as an ROTC cadet, I thought that military service was noble. I believed in the ideals of my country, and I believed that the military helped spread those ideals.

Later on, after I was already commissioned, I learned the truth. I learned that the military often helps to subvert those ideals more often than uphold them. This isn't a knock on the men and women in uniform, it's a betrayal by the civilian leadership.

Since then, I've learned of the horrors of combat from those returning from theater right now. I've spoken with former Marines who are still so traumatized by what they saw and did that they will just break down sobbing after coming home at night. I know others who returned with no treatment for PTSD, and found themselves with alcohol and violence problems. And there's also the story of a soldier who hung himself after coming back, simply because he could not deal with all he saw and did.

It's best that you listen to what the above poster is telling you and NOT diminish it, because it is important. Killing others is NOT a "fact of life" -- it is something that could scar you for the rest of your life, possibly leaving you ill equipped to participate in regular society, and abandoned by those who ordered you to war in the first place.

My personal recommendation is to find something else to dispel your mundane middle-class existence or to find money for grad school.

[indigolady]

119. Are you worried about your medical history?

Are you depressed? Suicidal?

Do you have a drug/alcohol history?

You mentioned the medical records a couple of times.

HIV positive?

I'm not sure the army is what you need now. Join the army if you want to fight for your country, in a war that you believe is just.

I don't believe war solves problems, but I do know that when pressed to defend themselves, and their homes, and countries, people will defend themselves.

It sounds like you are looking for order, and someone else to think for you.
Maybe you should join a cult . (that's sarcastic - don't do it)

There are private "boot camp" type exercise programs you could look into.
Some of those teen-rehab programs in Utah might work.

[mmonk]

11. Just visit a recruiter

I know some young people over there (Iraq) right now. They desperately need people in place pretty quickly. You may get wisked to Kuwait and get rapid (and IMO half assed training) just to get boots there. I would not do it. With the US held in such low esteem now in the world, and groups threatening war crimes trials and such, I would be reluctant. My sources there say things are pretty bad there right now. If you do go, I wish you the best and stay safe.

[Old and In the Way]

20. I agree.....I think they'll be taking lots of shortcuts and let the new

recruits 'learn on the job'. No way would I join up now...not with these people running the show...

[sadinred]

24. Just visit a Vet!!!!! Recruiter are paid to lie, Vets are not n/t

[sadinred]

25. Just visit a Vet!!!!! Recruiter are paid to lie, Vets are not n/t

[mmonk]

33. True, but

oldhat would have to enlist with someone active duty. From what I've heard from my wife's cousin's kid, he was fast tracked right into Kuwait, then Baghdad.

[rocktivity]

16. With an AWOL nutjob as commander in chief?

:wow:
rocknation

[2bfree]

17. Does it have to be the Army?

You should go for the Navy or the Air Force. JMO How old are you? If you were one of my boys I would be begging you not to join.

[oldhat]

23. Just turned 24 years old.

Trust me, I'm an adult and I'm being reasonable about this. I'm not some 17 year old high school kid.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. 24.

You're old enough to know better. The Iraqis don't deserve what we are doing to them. Why would you want to participate in that?

[2bfree]

30. I don't think you are a kid............

Didn't mean that at all. I have two sons, 19 and 22. I see the world with them in mind and as a Mom. I really hope you think about this long and hard before you make a decision. I wish you the best whatever your choice is.

[oldhat]

40. Thank you.

[theHandpuppet]

85. What about the USCG?

Now there's a challenge and a military service!

[qs04]

29. Base no decisions upon anything a recruitor tells you

A recruitor's job is not to help you make an informed decision but to meet enlistment quotas.

/edit
Just in case it hadn't occured to you.

[HeeBGBz]

31. I don't know why you would want to do this now

Are you 35 or under in age? Basic training is harsh, but doable. Depending on your physicality. I joined the Army when I was 30. It was a dumbass thing to do.

With the military run by corporate mindset and evil leaders, I really wouldn't recommend it. At least, for now.

[oldhat]

35. Yeah, I'm 24.

I'm thinking I need 2 months of running and strength training/weight lifting to get a head start on the other guys.

I'm not huge, I'm 5'8" and 165. I think I can do it if I put my mind to it.

[Demonaut]

34. if you go I wish you the very best

but the military life is not for everyone, I spent the majority of my time on a carrier doing figure eights off San Diego and the IO. And remember, you give up the majority of your rights as an American citizen and would be subject to the UCMJ......you can't just quit if it's not to your liking

[LeftyMom]

38. If you PM me with your email

I can have LeftyDad contact you. He was in the army reserve (activated for the first bush war) so he should ne able to answer most of your questions.

[Steven_S]

44. Why don't you go to the Walter Reed Medical Center and ask..

There are plenty of people just laying around with not much to do.

If money is an issue just pm me and I'll make arraingements for your transportation.

[mark414]

45. hey man don't listen to some folks on here

i thought about joining the marines for a time...but once bush really got things rolling after 9/11 i changed my mind (i'm 20)...

it's definitely an honorable thing to do so don't let people try to knock you away from it. i don't understand why you'd want to be joining now, with this president, but your reasons are your own, and unless you only want to join so you can "go kill some towelheads," then your reasons are honorable too and i support you with that.

best of luck man and i hope you make the decision that's right for you.

[meisje]

46. Good Luck... and stay low!

[haele]

49. Your recruiter will generally lie to you...

You will have to go through the processing along with 20 to 100 other young men and women you probably won't know, there's no privacy, people will be barking orders at you and pushing you along with no chance to answer any questions you might have.
First, you fill out at least twenty-five different forms, covering everything physical that happened to you, every school you went to, every address you lived at and phone number, every job you had, jobs your parents had while you were alive, social security numbers of all your immdeiate relatives, etc, etc...just bring a big notebook with all that info in it, makes things much easier. Also, make sure you make copies of everything they give you and give it to someone trustworthy to save.
After a not very private, rushed and vaugely unsanitary (or so it seems) complete physical you will be asked to raise your right hand (your other right) and swear in. Now "you're officially in". If you have a delayed entry, you might be able to spend a few weeks saying goodbye, but if you're not, you'll be on the bus/plane to bootcamp the next day.
Bootcamp -
I would suggest you stop smoking a couple months prior to enlisting - "smoking periods" are few and far between, cigarettes and lighters are at a premium, and nicotine withdrawls are not a good thing to have while at bootcamp. That's what caused at least a sixth of my company to fail...
Pack only your sundries, clothes you need to get there and to get back home. Nothing valuble - no jewelry, fancy shoes, nothing you can't stand losing. Don't bring the gameboy, the walkman, the Ipod. You won't be able to use anything entertaining once you get to bootcamp. If you're a bit overweight, your return clothes probably won't fit.
Bootcamp is a game. Just remember that. They give you the rules upfront, and you follow them to the letter. Unless you know you're good at leading and have a great sense of physical and mental balance, keep your head down and don't volunteer for anything.
Don't worry about failing unless you're in a leadership position. The military will drag you through whatever problems you have, even if you're kicking and screaming.

And finally - don't join the Army, join the Navy if you want to travel and actually learn something fairly useful or the Air Force if you just want to get away from home and have a decent job for four to six years. Or the Coast Guard if you really want to serve your country.

Nothing against Army guys - or Marines, for that matter, but with this PNAC gallery buncha chicken-hawks, to join a service dedicated to Groundpounding one runs a higher risk of getting screwed up mentally and physically, with nothing to show afterwards...
Of course, the Airforce is all about whom you can schmooze to get that plum civvie desk job when you leave.
And the Navy is all about Rum, Buggery, and the Lash - Arrrrrh, Matey
:evilgrin:

Haele
(CPO, USN/USNR, 1978 - 1998)

[NCN007]

57. If you dont listen to anyone else

Listen to this guy. Salty old chiefs usually know a thing or two. And I second the Navy reccomendation

[JohnLocke]

59. Ditto.

Excellent advice.

[ridgerunner]

67. Times have changed

"I would suggest you stop smoking a couple months prior to enlisting - "smoking periods" are few and far between, cigarettes and lighters are at a premium, and nicotine withdrawls are not a good thing to have while at bootcamp. That's what caused at least a sixth of my company to fail..."

I went to bootcamp in 88, Orlando. They banished smoking in boot the week before I got there. I almost died from nicotine withdrawal after our first run. And to make it worse the damn DI's would smoke in front of us and laugh about it.

[DS1]

97. I was in the Marines, and I'd never have been able to deal with the Navy

All those months on a ship, NOWHERE to with what little free time you get, there is no weekend, no new people, etc etc. My introverted nature could have a lot to do with those feelings, so choose your branch wisely. I'd suggest the Air Force, you are treated like royalty compared to Marines, trust me.

[cliss]

50. Just promise one thing, oldhat

6 months from now

when you're standing there in Iraq, in your camo outfit and heavy helmet, with sand blowing around your ankles, remember this thread.

[oldhat]

51. Ha!

That actually made me laugh. ;)

[Leilani]

77. You obviously have given this lots of thought

& you sound like you have your own reasons for doing this, which I totally respect.

I believe the military provides lots of positives, which haven't been mentioned much in this thread. And aside from the bennies, I think most people find a lot of personal growth in the military. It provides challenges that you won't find in civilian life, & it is also a very admirable thing to serve & give back something to your country.

With your education, & obvious intelligence, I would repeat some other posters, about considering the Navy. There's more intellectually challenging positions available, but there's also plenty of risk. Aviation & sub duty are pretty challenging.

As far as travel, you'll see more of the world in the Navy. Because you have to port, you won't be left out in the middle of nowhere.

Finally, whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck & happiness.
My family has service in the Army, Marines, & Navy, & I'm proud of all of it.

[ElectroPrincess]

142. Regrets, but seriously if you were one of my children I'd seriously

consider having my older brother have a long talk about the atrocities in Vietnam he observed during his combat tour.

If that wasn't enough to dissuade you ... if you were one of my children, I would NOT sign a release if you were 17 years old AND consider almost everything I could do to stop you from making such a horrible mistake.

If there were opportunities to attend Officers' Basic Course in either the Army and Marine Corps, you would at least have more control over your personal situation and the troops you would supervise.

However, IMHO and feedback from others, starting off as an enlisted person during the time of war is the closest thing to have "zero control" and being enveloped in "a living hell."

But I must say, if there are any Neo-Con * lovers who feel we are bringing freedom to "those people", I implore you to enlist so my child and others' may not risk be drafted in the future. ;)

[SweetLeftFoot]

104. Joining the armed forces

Mate, I don't know you so I'm not going to lecture. Just one thing - would you really want to fight in an army that won't even acknowledge your sacrifice if you do die? An army that hides the bodies and funerals of those it claims to honour?

Many members of my family have fought in various struggles (Australian) but none enjoyed it. They did it because they had to. And they were honoured.

My grandad was a navigator in WWII bombers. It was his job to hose the remains of the rear gunners out of the plane when they got back. He actually won an international award for a short story he wrote about that. He wrote the story 50 years after it happened and not only remembered every detail, every smell, but the skill to translate it into words. It was awful.

Maybe, when you're hosing your buddy off the side of a Humvee, you might remember this thread.

[Carl Brennan]

56. I am prohibited from really helping

because there are laws against helping someone commit suicide.


I am a veteran and I tell anybody I see not to do it and don't expect me to help you.

What would you do if they sent you to Iraq?

[jesusq]

58. Why go to Iraq?

The Commander in Chimp has been WORKING HARD in Iraq and he has pledged to do some of that same kind of HARD WORK to bring this country together. If past performance is any indication of future results, you won't need to go to Iraq to "see what you are made of." We may need you to fight a civil war here in America :nuke:

[nniuqs]

60. Here's some websites which list what you want to know.

http://www.armybasic.org/portal/index.php

You have to register to view the first website but it's mainly for people considering the army or people who have been in the army.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/l/aaarmybasic1.htm

This has a lot of links to the enlistment process, what goes on in basic training, etc.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/recruiter.htm

What your recruiter never told you, basically telling what really goes on in basic training.

[ccarter84]

62. great links, last one esp.

[UdoKier]

71. This one's better.

http://www.objector.org/

[ElectroPrincess]

143. Forget the link ... I'll tell you what really goes on in Basic Training

You're treated like the lowest form of whale shit to break down your emotional arrogance. PTed ad nausea and deprived of sleep.

Then they build you up as a team to believe you're hot shit and the meanest MF killing machines on the planet.

Oh, and if you're in great shape, you can be sent on to Airborne or Ranger school so you can later wear cool badges and arm patches and ceaselessly brag to other infantry troops that you're ummm "special." <eg>

Some troops are so "brainwashed" that they actually believe that seemingly forever. Usually these types are referred to as "lifers or those who never have been sent into combat.

Done! Now you know IMO The Basics of Basic Training.

[UdoKier]

63. Bye.

Hope you've done everything you ever wanted to do in this life. Make sure to get plenty of life insurance.

But at least you'll have that GI Bill money for school after living on McDonald's pay for 4 years, that is IF you survive this and whatever other cockamamie wars Bush decides to start for fun and profit.

If you were my kid, I'd be furious with you, but it's your life.

[oldhat]

64. Charming.

[UdoKier]

66. Goading you on to your likely death would please you more?

As far as I'm concerned, every servicemember in Iraq should IMMEDIATELY declare themselves conscientious objectors and refuse to DO ANYTHING but go home.

There is absolutely no moral basis for our remaining in that country and propping up its puppet rulers for even one more day.

The hundreds of men and women who have refused to serve in Iraq have my undying admiration, they are the HIGHEST ORDER of patriot. If a majority of our people were to do so, Bushco would have no choice but declare and amnesty and withdraw.

And yet, here you are, knowing full well what a filthy farce of an escapade it is and you would VOLUNTEER to become a low-paid mercenary for Halliburton? What do you want, a cookie?

You don't need info on how to enlist. They've got their stupid ads and 1-800 numbers all over the place. Give one of those recruiters a call and you won't have to worry about the process. They'll take care of everything. They'll tell you all about the cool cars you'll drive, the great ports of call you'll visit, and the cool, video-game-like equipment you'll get to use. They're worse than used car salesmen. They have to be.

I hope you will choose life, not murder and suicide, but as I said before, it's your life, your mind, your soul.

http://www.objector.org/


(By the way, I did my time, in the Navy, in the 80s. Boot camp is great - builds up all those phony notions in your head about military cohesion and honor. YOu feel a great sense of achievement when you graduate. But then you get to the fleet, and the discipline is largely gone, and you find out that a lot off people you serve with are ignorant hicks or criminal lowlifes who haven't mended their ways. Don't leave your walkman on your bunk for 3 minutes, because it's gone. Honor, my ass. You want to get out of a soul-dead town? Go live in Europe or Japan for a few years. Date a foreign girl, learn a new skill there. You do NOT need the military to see the world.)

[Zen0]

65. a different path...

oldhat, I'm recently graduated high school. I decided to try the asvab just to see how I do. I did extremely well and was offered military intel with the army. I went to MEPS in Tampa fl and passed that long arduous examination process.

Weeks before I left for boot camp, I decided that if I'm going to stay true to my beliefs then I can't join the army. I don't believe in wars, or even having a military for that matter, but nonetheless I was still interested. I was joining for all the same reasons you were, GI and to test myself among others.

I never left for boot camp, and I currently work about 60 hours a week to pay for college as I go (the best I can anyways). I'm always exhausted from either school or work, or playing this boyfriend role. As I look back I'm glad I made the choice not to go and stay true to my beliefs.
The choice is all about who you are, and what you believe in.

If you enlist, enjoy the time your in, use the GI bill, be smart at MEPS when picking your MO, take in other cultures around the world and have fun. I wish you the best of luck.

[arcos]

76. welcome to DU!

:hi:

[JohnOneillsMemory]

144. Following orders to kill people is immoral. End of discussion. n/t

[Blue Diadem]

69. Oldhat, please think about this,

As a daughter of a WWII Army vet and a sister of two brothers who served in the Army in VietNam, I encourage you to think carefully before joining the military during a time when we have a President who glories in sending people off to fight an unnecessary war. I grew up watching my Dad suffer because he had to kill a German after looking in that man's eyes. I listened to his sadness when he spoke of his best friend being blown to bits, another friend being hit in the face with a phosphorus shell. He didn't even begin to talk about it until my brothers went to Nam.

My brothers survived Nam physically, but neither one was ever the same. One who enlisted, did two tours there, died a few years ago. He was 53, suffered all those years, effects of agent orange and his demons from the war. You see, in Nam, sometimes the enemy would boobytrap babies and toddlers. My brother witnessed the death of a little child that had been boobytrapped. A year before his death, he was still having flashbacks and remembering things he had blocked out of his mind.

My other brother has only opened up once, speaking of a young girl about 14, being cut nearly in two by machine gun fire.

You might say it's just my family that can't handle it. I have 3 neighbors who have serious problems from Nam as well. I don't know their stories, they never speak of them, but it's known all over town that their problems stem from the war all those years ago.

and..don't get me started about their veterans benefits..

Sorry this is long, but I feel your life, both physical and emotional is at stake. If you're going to do something, you should know all aspects of it so you can atleast make an informed decision.

[annabanana]

110. a good and thoughtful post..

Welcome to DU, Ohio
:toast:

[LeftyMom]

72. Look into the GI Bill

The army actually takes more in non-refundable deposits than it pays out in tuition. They can and probably will fuck you out of your college money. They certainly didn't give LeftyDad any. All he got out of the army was fucked up knees.

You're going to do what you're going to do and I can't stop you and wouldn't if I could. You're and adult and have a right to make your own decision. Just get all the information you can and always bear in mind that *recruiters lie.* You're considering givning someone else control of nearly every aspect of your life for years. You won't be an entirely free man again until you're 32. Take the time and make the effort to make a well-considered position after weighing your options. They'll still have a war waiting for you when you make up your mind, it won't be going away anytime soon.

[TacticalPeek]

73. As an Army vet, my advice is

consider the Marines.

(1) they're smarter

(2) they have the best leadership

[Lone Pawn]

74. I'm from a military family...

Decided not to enlist myself (for many of the same reasons posted above and below), but considering joining up with CIA's China desk sometime after graduation--going for a double major in East Asian Studies, Chinese concentration and Physics at the moment. That is, if my internet liberalism doesn't somehow cause me to fail the background check. I'm certain I must have posted something treasonous on here at some point...

But I've got no problem with the military on principle. Father a Captain in the Naval Reserve now, was an F-14 pilot off the Enterprise way back when, uncle, cousins, grandfathers in the service...sometimes you just have to do what you know is right. And sometimes service to your nation is what is right for yourself and for your country. I wouldn't pick straight army grunt if I were you, but whatever decision you make, I'm sure it will be the right one for you.

Just make sure you're not doing it because you're all gung-ho, because you're bored, or because you "feel like it." It's a damn big decision--the biggest you'll make in your lifetime. You won't be the same man afterwards; whether it's a positive change or a negative change is up in the air.

[Liberty Belle]

75. Please consider this

2/3 of the injured in Iraq have brain injuries. This is a little-known fact to the public, but has been reported in the Army's own internal magazine. An article in the San Diego Tribune confirmed this fact in an interview with a doctor treating military wounded.

Many others are coming home with horrible wounds--limbs missing, blinded, paralyzed, ripped apart by bombs--if they come home at all. There are reports that the U.S. is using spent uranium weapons, which cause long-lasting serious health effects on survivors--and their children.

Once you're in the Army, you're never free again. They are recalling up men and women in their 50s who have been out of the military for years, some with health problems, and the courts are forcing them to go.

If you need college money and can't get scholarships, defer for a year or two, get a job, and save up. Go to community college first or a trade school, if need be.

Do public service or find other ways to serve your country, rather than going to Iraq where our government is slaughtering innocent Iraqis with 500 pound bombs, not only terrorists. There are so many ways to serve your fellow citizens here at home. Volunteer, or seek a paying position with a charitable organization.

If you still decide to join up, consider the Navy or enlist in the Coast Guard. Iraq doesn't have a navy, so your odds of staying safe are much higher--and with the Navy, you would see much more of the world than a war-torn hellhole in the Middle East.

[Sgent]

80. My suggestions...

Look at the Marines if you want to do really cool stuff in terms of being a "soldier". The Marine infantry is about the level of the Army Rangers, less parachutes but better at water stuff.

Look at the Cost Gaurd if you actually want to serve your country. I know they are often thought of as the bastard stepchild of the forces, but they probably see more action than anyone (excepting Iraq), and don't have the long overseas deployments etc. during peacetime.

Look at the Navy (or AF) if you want job training.

The GI Bill as it currently is written is worth every penny you put into it assuming you go to college full-time afterwards.

[oldhat]

81. So you don't recommend the Army?

Are you a vet?

I want to be on land and see the shit. Either Army or Marines.

But I keep thinking I couldn't hack it in the Marine Corps, like I'd be too soft or I wouldn't make it through the Crucible. I'd be incredibly proud to be a Marine, though.

[TX-RAT]

99. Us Army 69-72, PM me if you have questions

Not a subject i care to discuss on an open forum.

[lukasahero]

141. "I want to be on land and see the shit."

I've been reading the thoughtful responses you've received from the military folks here on this board but I have to say this line from you is a mockery of their service and advice to you.

You "want...to see the shit"? Are your reading what anyone here really has to say about "the shit" you might see? Are you thinking this is a video game? You say you want to test yourself but it sounds more like you think what these guys have been through is really just a game. What do you hope to prove to yourself - that you can "survive" this stuff better than these "complainers" could?

I don't fault "the" desire to serve but I have to say I'm beginning to question yours. Visit a VA hospital (or one of the veteran's homeless shelters) and talk to the guys who have "seen the shit". They're lives are not a game. Neither is yours.

[datasuspect]

164. if you want to "see the shit" . . .

http://www.halliburton.com/careers/index.jsp

apply for a truck driver position/logistics.

they pay a hell of lot more.

[WMliberal]

79. consider the navy or air force

You're more likely to get a role where you aren't required to kill another human being. Simultaneously, you're less likely to die.

[Sgent]

82. 4F....

I was born with congenitial knee defects in both knees, and can't run -- so I'm not eligible. I was in army ROTC in college (required course). My brother was in the Marine infantry (enlisted), my Mother was an officer in Army, one uncle retired from the AF reserve, and another was in the Coast Gaurd -- I have a lot of family.

Having talked to all of them over time, the pretty much all agree if you want to "do" stuff -- from search and rescue to parachuting to seamnship, join the Coast Gaurd.

If you want to be a soldire type -- the Marines are the way to go -- better training, better leadership, and less bullshit. Marine infantry also gets a lot of chance to see forieng countries, etc.

The Navy, which actually has more planes than the AF, is probably the way to go if you both want to see the world, and learn a trade (air trafic control, mechanics, etc.).

AF is generally considered easiest and least likely to see action, but they do have some great training programs as well. Since the end of the cold war they aren't deployed overseas nearly as much.

All of the above is based on "peacetime" action -- when we were only involved with bosnia or maybe afganistan. With the current situation, a Marine will probably get to see a LOT of dessert...

[SweetLeftFoot]

Foreign countries

Join The Marines - travel to exotic places, meet new people, and kill them!

[SweetLeftFoot]

108. Foreign countries

Join The Marines - travel to exotic places, meet new people, and kill them!

[Qanisqineq]

84. my husband wants out, wanna take his place?

He's looking at 18 months of being overseas without his family. And the military is fucking him in every way possible (excuse my language). I'd rather not get into it right now, it just all happened yesterday.

He's been in 9 years and he used to love military life (no, that does not mean he likes war or killing people). The last 6 months or more, basically since he got back from Iraq, the army has been fucking him over and over.

If you do enlist, my husband and other soldiers will thank you because they are stretched pretty thin.

[cire4]

86. Another recommendation for the Peace Corps

Living 2 years in a developing country and having to immerse yourself in the local culture and language will be just as challenging and personally rewarding, if not moreso, as any stint in the military. You'll be instilled with the same values of character, discipline, and responsibility as you would get if you were part of the armed services and you would still get to see what you are made of. Plus, with the Peace Corps, you are not only much safer, but you will get the satisfaction of knowing that you truly did something amazing for the village/community that you volunteered in.

Oh...and grad schools really look favorably upon Peace Corps returnees.

At least consider it:

www.peacecorps.gov

[MadHound]

87. I've read down this thread, seen your reasons for going, and all I can say

Is reconsider this before you jump into it.

Turning your soul over to the military is not something to do lightly, or because you want to test your boundaries. If it was merely a matter of putting your life on the line, that would be no problem. I understand that type of thinking, especially from a young man. But you are also putting your soul on the line, and that could have ramifications far beyond your hitch in the army. I've known several Vietnam Vets, and there are things that have haunted them ever since getting out. Some, I know the specifics, some I don't. Some of these guys have learned to cope, some haven't. Believe me, it is a risk you don't want to take.

I understand your need to test yourself, both physically and mentally. I was where you're at twenty-five years ago, and seriously considered the military. However I didn't go, mainly because I have many examples of what happened to the guys in Vietnam before me. Instead, I went into firefighting. It serves your country, it earns you money, and believe me, it challenges you mentally and physically like nothing else in this world. To go blindly into a situation that everybody else is fleeing tests your strength in many ways. I would strongly recommend this option over the military any day. Besides, it is a blast, without the drawback of having to sell your soul to the military. You are truly doing good, you are not killing people, and you get to jump out of planes into the middle of a raging inferno. What could be better?

If you wish to persue this path, I would suggest that you hook up with your local volunteer fire dept. They will provide you with the basic training, and can hook you up with the right people to advance where you want to go. Firefighting is a great careeer for a young man, and can lead to a life long vocation. I myself was in service for six years, and had a blast. Please consider this alternative over the military, for it has all the advantages of the military, yet you don't have to sell your soul out in order to succeed.

Think about it.

[Dzimbowicz]

89. I'm a vet and will try to answer any questions you may have

I served as a Marine (enlisted, made SGT) from 1974 to 1980.

I also served in the National Guard (commissioned, made CPT) afterwards from 1980-1990.

I went in for the GI Bill and the bonus which was being offered at the time for anyone who would serve in the combat arms; I, too, needed the money for college. I, also, wanted to test myself both physically and mentally.

If I can help, feel free to ask me anything about dealing with recruiters, basic training and the day to day life of a servive member.

[sadinred]

92. Couldn't sleep thinking about your post

and then I had a dream that I was being beheaded!!!!!

I hope and pray that you do not enlist. There are so many good reasons in all of these replies to not enlist.

I just want to add that what is really difficult and challenging in Life is LIVING! What is hard is being creative and productive and dealing with feelings and with boredom and with dissatisfaction. Fighting, I mean obvious War Fighting, is easy, no thinking just follow the sheep. Actually you go and fight you will have no time to think or feel or question...you lose your rights to your self and to life!!!!!!
Fight your depression, fight your boredom. The real challenge is to Live. Living is the hardest thing in the world! You back down if you go to fight Bush's war. There is no courage there!!!!!!!!!!!
Re Think Re Think Re Think Re Think...shit I actually had nightmares because of your post yesterday!!!!!!!!

[SmokingJacket]

94. Don't become a killer in an unjust war.

If you want an experience to write a book about, like Tobias Wolff, use your imagination. There are many.

Build a boat out of tin cans and sail to Vanuatu.

Become a hobo and document the lives of the underclass (I'd do this if I were young and single.)

Go to NYC and become a drug addict! Anything!

I know you weren't asking for opinions on your life choices, but look where you chose to post!!!

;-)

[SammyWinstonJack]

95. Why on Earth would you consider doing that?

:wow:

[Walt Starr]

96. Do NOT believe a word the recruiter says, they are paid to lie

DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING PRIOR TO READING IT FULLY AND UNDERSTANDING IT COMPLETELY!!!!!

Have an attorney go over every word of every document prior to signing. If the recruiter balks at this, the recruiter is trying to screw you over. Preferably, bring the attorney with you to the recruiter's office.

I joined when I was 17. Read the papers and make certain an attorney explains them to you before you sign, otherwise they will lie to you and you will have no recourse.

[Bonobo]

100. Premeditated murder is well thought out too.

It doesn't make it any less wrong.

[Bridget Burke]

101. What about your investment portfolio?

From you posting in another thread, I really got the picture that you were too well off to need money for school?

[spanone]

103. First, go see a psychiatrist and have your head examined.

Next, change your mind.

[slowroll]

109. Sure are a lot of posters on this thread

criticizing this young man for considering taking the same course of action John Kerry did in Vietnam. I, for one, believe Kerry's actions were noble and honorable. What's the difference?

[MadHound]

112. A couple of things in answer to your question

First off, I'm sure that when Kerry enlisted, he had friends and family that advised him not to. He just didn't post to a chat board and get broad based advice like this gentlement is.

Secondly, back in Feb of '66 it wasn't apparent that the Vietnam war was such an over the top illegal and immoral war, there were still shades of gray, and many people still bought into the whole business of the Gulf of Tonkin and the Dominoe Theory of SE Asia. Today, in Iraq, we know with certainty that our military presence there is illegal and immoral. Iraq had no WMDs, no ties to terrorism, nothing to do with 911, and that in all reality the only reason we're there is for oil. This is well known and widely disseminated, and surely if this man is posting and reading DU, he is fully cognizant of these facts.

If Kerry had been in the same situation back in '66 as this gentleman is now, we would be giving him the same advice friend.

[Tacos al Carbon]

114. John Kerry

Charlie Rangel, Wesley Clark, Jimmy Carter, Bob Kerrey, Daniel Inouye, Max Cleland, Fritz Hollings and so many others served their country. According to some people on this thread they were all idiot baby-killer wannabes who should have had their heads examined for enlisting. You'd think that people would want MORE progressives in the armed forces, not less.

[ProfessorGAC]

117. How Many Progressives Are In The Armed Forces?

I have no idea, but apparently you do. Besides, what does that have to do with anything.

Also, pay attention to the other posters. The differences between all the folks you mentioned and the original poster is that NONE of those guys knew the nature of that conflict when they signed up. Today, ANYONE who wants to join the military is fully aware of the situation in Iraq. It's unjustified, incredibly untidy, horribly mismanaged, and needs to end sooner, not later.

You're comparing apples to moon rocks.
The Professor

[Tacos al Carbon]

133. Kerry didn't know the nature of Vietnam

Are you serious? You're telling me that there weren't any protests or info on the war when he enlisted? That's just one example.

And yes, you're right. You have no idea.

[ElectroPrincess]

140. No there were NOT widespread massive protests then ...

the Anti-war movement did not get spun up and widely noticed until 67-68. I know, I lived through that time (a child) and put together care packages for my brother serving in the 101st Airborne.

[ProfessorGAC]

148. There Were No Protests At That Time

None. Get a history book.
The Professor

[wmbrew0206]

116. I'm an Active Duty Marine Officer

If it is between the Army and the Marines, something to consider:

1. While the Marine Corps boot camp is harder than the Army's, if you can run three miles in 28 minutes and do about 5 pull ups, and if you want it bad enough you can make it through recruit training. Don't let the physical side scare you off.

2. With either service, do your own research and figure out what you want to do. Then tell the recruiter what you want and sign a contract for that MOS (military occupational specialty)and only that MOS. Don't sign anything until you sign a contract for that MOS. Everyone is right here when they say don't completely trust a recruiter.

3. With either service, you WILL go through a FULL and COMPLETE boot camp. Neither service has changed the length of their boot camps.

4. After boot camp with the Army, you go to your MOS school and then to any other school that you signed up for (I highly recommend jump school, it was great!) and then to your unit. MOS schools have not been shortened either. If your unit is deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, then that is where you will go. Do some research and you'll figure out who is where and when they are going over or getting back. With the Army, the 82nd, 101st, and the Ranger Bn's deploy the most. So if you want to get over there, ask for an assignment to those units.

5. With the Corps, you'll got to MCT after boot camp, then your MOS school and then your unit. Once again if your unit is over there you'll go, if not then you'll be stateside. You could even end up in Hawaii in a non-deployable job, it happens every now and then.

From what you listed you are looking for, you will find it in either service. I joined before 9/11 and it was the best decision I ever made. I just return from Afghanistan and headed to Iraq next, and I wouldn't change it for the world. While I in Afghanistan one of the things I saw was a little girl walking with her younger brother on their way to school. Seeing things like that and helping make the country safe for free elections made it one of the most rewarding experience of my life. If you have an other questions, post them and I'll try and answer them or PM you.

[ProfessorGAC]

118. Gee, I Have Friends Who Had The Same Experience!

In The Peace Corps!
The Professor

[slowroll]

120. We need both

a Peace Corps and a Marine Corps. Both are founded on the notion of selfless service, whether some here believe that or not. But only one might ask you to give your life in performing that service, and I think that certainly makes a difference in the relative gravity of the two.

[IrateCitizen]

127. Only one asks you to kill in performing that service as well.

Dying is easy. Talk to grunts who have had to kill in combat, and deal with all that goes along with it. It scars them for the rest of their life.

BTW -- I'm a former Army Reserve officer, so I'm not someone unfamiliar with the military at all.

[ProfessorGAC]

149. So Naive!

Must be nice to be able to ignore the ugly realities of life. I can't ignore them.
The Professor

[HootieMcBoob]

131. The Army has added extra field training during basic

You'll spend a lot more time in the field and more combat situation simulation then past recruits because they know that the likelihood of your ending up in a combat situation is a lot greater than it has been in the past. The physical stuff is...well...very physical, but if you end up able to run two miles in about 16 minutes, do about 40 push-ups in two minutes and about 45-50 sit-ups in two minutes you'll pass the PT test. You'll also end up doing a few 10 - 15 mile forced marches with full packs and full gear (helmet, m16, gas mask, etc), believe me it's killer. You'll work your ass off. What the Marine Officer says for the most part is true.

I would however suggest that you do not do this. If you want to join the military consider the Navy or Air Force first. If you join the Army or Marines you will probably within a very short time after completing your MOS training end up in Iraq. The Army and Marines are being stretched way beyond capacity. I was in the Army myself and I used to recommend the military without reservation to people who asked me about it but I could never do that today.

I suggest you read the recent pentagon report on how things are going in Iraq. It's a total cluster fuck over there. You do not want to get involved in this mess that this radical and incompetent administration has created. Use your head, there have got to be other options for you. If you enlist now, I'll say a prayer for you and wish you the best of luck but I have to tell you that I think it would be an enormous mistake.

[Dzimbowicz]

135. You might want to include some more info for this young person

Every Marine is an 0300 before anything else. For those of you who might not understand, this means that every Marine is a trained rifleman first and foremost. So, if you are an admin clerk, a mechanic, cook, or whatever, the Marines can override that and put you in the infantry.
Also there is a clause in the enlistment contract which states that if the combat arms needs people, your guaranteed MOS can be disregarded. I saw this first hand on many occasions.

A former student of mine joined the Marines in 2002 to learn how to be a jet mechanic; and he became one. Back in April 2004 he was in Fallujah and was walking infantry patrols. So, Marines are Marines, and if your "warm body" is needed to carry a rifle, your guaranteed MOS goes out the window.

BTW sir, I am a former Marine NCO (1974-80), MOS 1811 (Tank Crewman), highest rank achieved: Sgt (E-5).

[HootieMcBoob]

138. I think that's true of the Army too

Thanks for mentioning that. Basic Training in the Army is actually "Basic Infantry Training" You are a soldier no matter what your MOS.

I have a cousin who found this out the hard way very recently. He was in the army for a long time as a cook. He was discharged and then re-enlisted a few years later in the reserves, again as a cook. Now he's 40 years old and he has been moved to an infantry unit. Right now he's being trained and will be shipping out for a year to - you guessed it - Iraq. A 40 year old cook/reservist with an alcohol problem is training to fight with an infantry unit in Iraq. That's how much of a mess we're in over there.

[ElectroPrincess]

139. Whoa! A lifer? I sincerely hope you don't become too disillusioned

with time. BTW I'm thrilled that my beloved husband is a RETIRED Marine Corps Officer. For 18 of his 20 years active duty I willingly played the role of the distaff. Words cannot describe how much a relief I feel (for his safety) that those days are over.

Anyone with loved ones deployed overseas, my heart goes out to you.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

122. No difference. Both are equally dumb.

If you recall, Kerry (when he had ethics) regretted his decision.

[Bridget Burke]

126. There was a draft. John Kerry didn't think he was better....

than everybody else. He didn't realize until later that the war was wrong.

This young man apparently just wants the fun! In another thread, he showed how much he knew about investing--so, he's really not in it for grad school.

Or he's a disrupter.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

167. (snif)

[Kitka]

145. I don't like what Kerry did in Vietnam either.

Do we have to?

[Junkdrawer]

111. You'll be soooorrryyyy....

A moment of brain fart...

A lifetime of misery...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

121. Well, if you want to murder people it's a great choice.

Because that's what you will be trained for and expected to do.

USMC '61-'65

[HootieMcBoob]

132. What Makes The Grass Grow Green?

Blood Drill Sergeant Blood! (from bayonet training)

[indigolady]

124. Are you worried about your medical history?

Are you depressed? Suicidal? Get therapy. Discover God. God is within you, you know.

Do you have a drug/alcohol history?

You mentioned the medical records a couple of times.

HIV positive?

I'm not sure the army is what you need now. Join the army if you want to fight for your country, in a war that you believe is just.

I don't believe war solves problems, but I do know that when pressed to defend themselves, and their homes, and countries, people will defend themselves.

It sounds like you are looking for order, and someone else to think for you.
Maybe you should join a cult . (that's sarcastic - don't do it)

There are private "boot camp" type exercise programs you could look into.
Some of those teen-rehab programs in Utah might work.

I HOPE YOU READ ALL THE POSTS. THERE IS A LOT OF TRUTH IN THOSE MESSAGES. ESPECIALLY FROM THE VETRANS.

You really don't want to kill and be killed.

[tuckessee]

128. So hurry up and sign up!

Do something you can be proud of!

Be part of the hi-tech, exciting, professional team that creates such magical scenes as this.....

If this would give you job satisfaction then have at it.

[Avis]

134. Careful

Be really careful what you sign and get copies of everything. Make sure they agree to paying for grad school up front and have the paperwork to prove it. My daughter works army admin. and put in 8 years as an officer - her husband 20 and still in - she dots every I and keeps a million copies of everything. Even getting out - unless your paperwork is perfect - they can keep you forever. You have to do all of it yourself - as they do not have your best interests in mind - only theirs. Especially during this time - be really sure you can actually get out and have the army regs to show you what paperwork you really need. It is a lot trickier than you think. Best wishes - if you were my son, I'd sell my soul before I would wish for you do this instead of going right in to grad school. Wish I had the money to just send you. You need to be using your brain, not learning to be a robot. (and even I spent 7 years with the army so I know something about it first hand. It is nice you are so concerned about the country and world - hope it is what you really think it is.

[ElectroPrincess]

137. I'm an army Vet and I would NOT advise my child to enlist in

the military today. During the 80s I served on active for four years and was registered in the Individual Ready Reserve before my discharge.

IF you join, the stop loss program may keep you "seemingly forever."

Not a good thing.

[Solly Mack]

151. Please don't. This army wife begs you.....please, don't.

There was a time when the military could give a person a boost up.

There were marketable skills in some MOS's and a steady paycheck while you learned and worked. Free health care, food and housing. You got to travel. There was the chance for college money later to better improve yourself as a person, and to open up more avenues of possibilities for the future.

And those things can still be found (to a degree). However....

In a culture of war (which Bush has visited upon America and the world), where even the training SOP has changed from "Peace and sometimes war" to "War and sometimes peace" ,(and the official training code has changed from one to the other my friends)
you'll find that all the good the military has ever done for a person is wiped out by the harm it is now causing.

It's not just a case of a "few bad apples"....it's the entire climate now. They actually dress up the battle dummies in head-scarves and give them names like "Ahmed and Muhammad." This breeds hate. This fosters and nurtures the attitudes that gave us Abu Ghraib, GitMo, Bucca, Cropper and many others.

Some people blithely quote "war is hell" ( and it really is hell), it's also a nasty and dirty "business"...with business being the keyword here. Currently,like meat through the grinder, young men and women are being used to promote an agenda of war for profit (not freedom).... and certainly not peace....and they are being shredded to pieces for their sacrifice. Literally shredded to pieces. If it's not their bodies being ripped apart, then it's their heart, their souls, and their minds.

I've seen the ones with no limbs, those with 1, 2, or 3 limbs. I've seen the brain damaged and the blind. Young skin peppered and puckered from shrapnel....Who desperately try to hold on to something to believe in... whose words say one thing while their eyes tell you the real story.

Almost a year later my husband can't get near an overpass without looking for snipers. He can't be near a river without doing the same. He jerks awake and remains stock-still until he sees where he is...

He sleeps with his arms crossed over his chest...his hands cupped....just like they were cupped around his rifle as he slept in Iraq. I understand now why soldiers could blow their own heads off while sleeping.

He talks in his sleep and while I won't share his words, I will tell you that I listen beside him, crying tears of sorrow.

He cries for the Iraqi women, children and, the men he got to know... I know he wonders if they are dead or alive...but can't bring himself to voice that pain. He's been unable to email those he knew.

His first thought upon learning about Abu Ghraib was "they've (US) murdered those women 'detainees' because their families will now kill them"...his second thoughts are punishable by the UCMJ.

He's in full-mode PTSD and we are getting help which seems to being doing some good....but he'll never be the same. Our family will never be the same.


Those that have been in the military for a long time have it better than those just joining....a longterm soldier can fill in needed slots that require skill modifiers while a new recruit is mostly trained to shoot and die regardless of MOS. You would literally become "fresh meat"

If you have any other choice, please, I beg of you...take it.

[jmowreader]

152. Please join the Navy or the Air Force instead

If you want to serve your country, either is fine. But the Navy will show you what you're made of better than the Air Force--or, indeed, better than the Army--will.

Plus, you'll get treated far, far better by the Navy than you will by the Army.

[seabeyond]

153. then go old hat, maybe someone who has been there too long

didnt belong there in the first place, didnt join to fight this war, and were ripped away from family and supporting family for this unnecessary war will be able to come home.

what a gift you will give

[welshTerrier2]

155. military service: an immoral choice

it seems to me that joining the military is an immoral choice for anyone to make ... the reason for this is that, on joining the military, one agrees to follow orders regardless of one's personal moral code unless those orders are shown to be illegal ...

i consider it an immoral act to relinquish control over your own responsibility to assess right and wrong in any given situation ... that's especially true when that control is ceded to a government like the U.S. government that has been morally bankrupt for many years ... while it's true that even enlisted (or conscripted) military personnel can always refuse to participate in any specific action, the reality is that this is a significant exception to the rule.

by default, joining the military endorses a belief that all government actions, including the waging of war, are moral actions ... in joining, you are taking a pledge that you will serve as ordered ...

many cite all sorts of reasons for joining the military such as education, excitement, seeing the world and serving the country ... perhaps these are all very valid reasons, but for me, it is ultimately an immoral choice ...

[manic expression]

157. First, let me say

that if you want to see what you are "made of", go and fight the riot police who will most likely suppress any demonstrations at the inaugaration.
Other people have expressed my sentiments pretty well...but I want to add this:

Dulce Et Decorum Est
By Wilfred Owen
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime -
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,-
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[Zorra]

158. Um, no offense, but your life must really suck if you would consider

killing innocent people for Bu$h in an unnecessary, unjustifiable war started by a bunch of lunatic fascist neocons as an alternative. It is a very irrational idea.

If I was considering enlisting in the army under present circumstances, the first thing I would do would be to find a good psychiatrist to try to find out why.

For Immediate Release
Monday, December 6, 2004

Kucinich: “The Iraqis Will Not Be Handed
Freedom Based On Lies”

Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), Co-Chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, gave the following speech today on the House floor

“Nearly thirteen hundred brave American men and women have sacrificed their lives in Iraq. Yet the central reasons for the US invasion have fallen apart: Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. No proof that Iraq was instrumental with Al Queda’s role in 9/11. Iraq was not trying to get nuclear materials from Niger. This Administration misled the Congress, misled the American people, violated international law, directed the bombings of populated areas, the disruption of water, sewer and electrical service, ordered house to house fighting, and now the civilian toll, by one account, is over 100,000 Iraqi civilians perished. Why?

“Freedom, if it is to be obtained anywhere, must be advanced under the standard of truth. The Iraqis will not be handed freedom based on lies. Nor will our own nation preserve our own freedoms if we continue to accept the basis for our continued occupation of Iraq.

“This Administration must be held accountable under our constitution and under international law for the disaster it has visited upon Iraq. Only the truth can clean the stain on our nation’s conscience.”

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/oh10_kucinich/12_6iraq.html

[420inTN]

159. Good luck to you.

My hat's off to you.

1) don't believe anything that a recruiter tells you, that's not in writing, and signed.
2) if you don't want to do combat, try to find a support job that you do want to do, or that's inline with your studies.
3) if you have your BA or BS degree, you might want to try find a job within your education/experience and look to OCS (Officer Candidate School).
4) if there is a ROTC detachment at your college/university, go talk to the enlisted personnel for advice.

[Nikia]

160. I understand the attraction of it, I applied to USMA

I suppose what I found most attractive about it was that it was a career based upon one's merits and that it all seemed quite straight forward. Although this war is immoral, most corporations are immoral too.
If I were you, I'd go into officer training. I think that you already have to be in mildly good phyical shape though and meet other physical requirements. It will give you a good start on your career and pay more than if you were an enlisted man.
I ended up being denied admission to USMA and ended up going to a college that did not offer ROTC. After college, I married right away and do not consider military life an option at this point even though I am still young. With the war in I Iraq, I am glad sometimes, but ordinary American life today sometimes doesn't seem to offer enough. Likewise, I am glad that I left the community of my childhood and was able to grow a lot away from it.
Whatever you decide, good luck.
On edit: I think that we should all keep in mind that there are many military positions that do not usually involve killing people.

[datasuspect]

161. you remind me of myself

you sound like a smart, self-motivated person.

i felt the same way when i was 23 years old. went and talked to a recruiter. they have a way of using your enthusiasm and dreams against you by latching on to your energy and basically telling you what you want to hear. my example: i was really proficient in languages and was a philosophy major. i expressed this to the recruiter and took the asvab and was told that i qualified for cryptography/intelligence/high security clearance shit which would involve a more detailed inspection of my personal history and records.

was he bullshitting me? maybe, maybe not, but it appealed to my ego. he had me about 90% hooked and pretty much kept tabs on me for a week: we would run together; go to the gym together; taking me to get my first drivers license; hanging out at the recruiter's office; going to visit national guard elements at their respective bases to get an idea of "military life"; etc.

but i backed out at the very last minute the day before i was to be processed. some well-intentioned people who i respected intellectually told me it probably wouldn't work out the way i thought it would. they knew me well enough - knew how independent minded i was.

i was way too young at the time and wanted a change of scenery (looking back now, that's all it was). i was bored, although at the time i tried melodramatically mindfucking myself into ascribing all kinds of "noble" motives to the idea of joining the military.

my best friend joined the marine corps and he told me that the primary purpose of the armed forces is to train people to kill. that's it. eveything else is secondary. you spend a lot of time waiting around and getting drunk while being government property. and in my conservations with other vets, that was the most compelling information they told me: that you spend lots of time waiting. that there is no tolerance for individuality - WHATSOEVER. you sound like an intellectual person, why would you want to plunge yourself into a gung-ho world like that?

THERE ARE SO MANY, MANY OTHER WAYS YOU CAN TEST YOUR METTLE. maybe you haven't found your niche yet, but that can be ameliorated by stepping out of your middle class world for a year or two.

move into a ghetto

get a teaching certificate - teach in a poor school district: this wipes out student loans.

just don't confuse a mid-20s existential crisis with a need to sign your life away to the government.

i don't know you. i still hope you don't join.

[Sterling]

162. This thread makes me want to hurl.

#1. You are for the war and it makes me really happy that you are joining up. I don’t feel a bit sorry for the idiotic shit you are about to do only that my tax dollars will be paying you to do it.

2. You are against the war but a very week person emotionally and in order to "find yourself" you need to be programmed by an organization that focuses primarily on taking human life. In that case I feel a tiny bit sorry for you but not as sorry as the innocent people you will be helping to kill. You want to learn to be a man? Becoming a drone for the empire will have the exact opposite effect on you.

Why not just go on a exotic animal safari hunting trip? Less commitment and you still get to feel like a man by killing something you won’t see in your area!

I truly feel for the people who joined our military back in the days when many of us believed our military was meant to protect us. Now that the world has seen what we will be using that military for in the coming century you might as well be signing your ticket to hell by taking part in this crusade. I really hope you allow yourself to grow out of this very immature Rambo phase you are in before you ruin your life and those of others you have yet to meet.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

169. Troll City. Joining the military today, esp. Army, has to be the world's

easiest thing to do. Come on in!

I spent most of my adult life in the service, had mostly great experiences, and no way no how would I ever recommend to anyone to join any service, especially Army or Marines, under the Bush Jr. Administration.

[Carl Brennan]

170. Great name by the way. That has to be Gore's best quote

I'd love to get a vid of that.

I'm a vet too.

:toast:

[Cleopatra2a]

163. Join the Air Force!!

Much nicer, but it can be a day to day existence, office job, come home, get on-line, just like me!!!

[shesemsmom]

165. Why in the name of of good sense would you want to do that

do you have a death wish

[Dear Maggie]

168. Trade places with someone

Well, you could offer to trade places with the 16 year retiree from the military who thought he had served his time and now has a wife and new baby.

Save him and the govt some money, and offer to go in his stead

[pa28]

171. Normally I would applaud your sense of duty.

But this is really not the time. Bush will turn your sense of service on it's ear and abuse your good intentions. Please think about this one carefully.

[SKKY]

172. I could answer just about any question you would want about the...

...recruitment process. But, my question to you is "Why the Army?". Did you look at any of the other branches? You may find, depending on what you want to do, that the Air Force, Navy, or even the Coast Guard would be a better option for you. But, as a veteran currently about to finish his 13th year, I commend you for even considering it.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

173. Is you crazy mon? It is not your duty fight oil wars for war profiteers!

[sadinred]

174. oldhat, I hope you're still reading here. I came across this DU

link and want you to see it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2809350&mesg_id=2809350

I mean no offense. It is only a warning. I'm still hoping you'll find something much more productive and useful to do with your strength and your youth.

:eyes: